Voted this morning

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Corth
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Corth » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:14 pm

Affirmative action is so 30 years ago.. and I'm not racist. Some of my best friends are black! :)
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:33 am

teflor the ranger wrote:Let me ask you a question, do you even believe that a majority of people are racist, bigoted, and prejudiced enough that they wouldn't hire someone just because they are from a racial minority?


Yes. A lot of people are racist without even realizing they are racist. I sometimes have racist thoughts myself, ranging from Asian chicks are hot to crossing the street because a black guy is walking towards me and it's dark out.

The Irish were once discriminated heavily against in this country, but they managed to make it without Affirmative Action.


Are you fucking kidding me? That's not even racism, it's nationalism and can be hidden by fucking changing your accent!
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:34 am

Corth wrote:Affirmative action is so 30 years ago.. and I'm not racist. Some of my best friends are black! :)



I have a black friend too Corth! Wouldn't it be interesting, though, if black people held lots of upper management positions and instinctively thought white people were inferior?
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Tanras » Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:55 am

If you believe that you have no preconcieved notions about skin color, do this:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/Study?tid=-1
Last edited by Tanras on Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Corth
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Corth » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:01 am

Dude - asian chicks are hot. Call me a racist.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:46 am

However, the problem with a lot of the comments that I see here is that they're bullshit.

There's nothing wrong with racism so long as it doesn't unfairly deny someone the opportunity to try and succeed, or to possess a personal and quiet dignity.

There are few things more wrong with racism than believing that people are somehow handicapped because of their race and REQUIRE additional assistance to make it on their own.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby kiryan » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:57 am

lol hillarious website corth.

The best argument for quotas at colleges is a few studies that claimed that the student body overall achieved better when more diverse. I don't know how valid those studies are.

The best argument against affirmative action and also the best case of discrimination is asians. Asians are over represented at colleges nationwide. They were so significantly over represented that colleges started actively implementing maximum enrollement numbers for asians. Are asians just not worthy of white prejudicism to keep their enrollment down? or is the real issue got nothing to do with racism and has something to do with i dunno you actually knowing who your father is and having two parents that will beat your ass if you don't bring home a 4.0 and will sacrifice getting their nails done so they can pay rent on a band instrument? When parents work hard and kids work hard, you go to college. When you have crappy parents and you don't work, its not racism, its you.

Do we need some quotas on the supreme court too? I mean there aren't any asian justices... some religious diversity would help too, if Kagan is confirmed you realize there will be 6 catholics and 3 jews on the court. You do realize that catholics basically believe the pope is God right? The pope is infalliable in Catholic doctrine unless later declared a fake pope.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby kiryan » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:00 am

There is nothing wrong with "discrimination" when you pick the candidates with the best merits. There is something seriously wrong when you give a promotion test in law enforcement and then just arbitrarily add 20 points to minority scores.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:43 am

kiryan wrote:lol hillarious website corth.

The best argument for quotas at colleges is a few studies that claimed that the student body overall achieved better when more diverse. I don't know how valid those studies are.

The best argument against affirmative action and also the best case of discrimination is asians. Asians are over represented at colleges nationwide. They were so significantly over represented that colleges started actively implementing maximum enrollement numbers for asians. Are asians just not worthy of white prejudicism to keep their enrollment down? or is the real issue got nothing to do with racism and has something to do with i dunno you actually knowing who your father is and having two parents that will beat your ass if you don't bring home a 4.0 and will sacrifice getting their nails done so they can pay rent on a band instrument? When parents work hard and kids work hard, you go to college. When you have crappy parents and you don't work, its not racism, its you.

Do we need some quotas on the supreme court too? I mean there aren't any asian justices... some religious diversity would help too, if Kagan is confirmed you realize there will be 6 catholics and 3 jews on the court. You do realize that catholics basically believe the pope is God right? The pope is infalliable in Catholic doctrine unless later declared a fake pope.



Oh for fucks sake.

Asians Stereotypes:
Hot
Good at math
Terrible Drivers

African-American Stereotypes:
Spearkchuckers
Dumber
More violent
rapists
drug users
gang members

You're fucking retarded if you don't think that different races have different stereotypes, and frankly I'm betting that if "affirmative action" states "add more minorities" then adding more asians is a LOT more palatable than adding more niggers.

Especially since asian chicks are hotter!
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Corth » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:25 pm

Asians truly are terrible drivers - which I never quite understood because they are excellent gamers.. and don't both activities basically use the same skills? I guess maybe Asians also have a stronger instinct for self-preservation, understanding at a rational level that if you lose a game you don't die, but if you crash your car...

:)
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Tanras » Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:37 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:lol hillarious website corth.

The best argument for quotas at colleges is a few studies that claimed that the student body overall achieved better when more diverse. I don't know how valid those studies are.

The best argument against affirmative action and also the best case of discrimination is asians. Asians are over represented at colleges nationwide. They were so significantly over represented that colleges started actively implementing maximum enrollement numbers for asians. Are asians just not worthy of white prejudicism to keep their enrollment down? or is the real issue got nothing to do with racism and has something to do with i dunno you actually knowing who your father is and having two parents that will beat your ass if you don't bring home a 4.0 and will sacrifice getting their nails done so they can pay rent on a band instrument? When parents work hard and kids work hard, you go to college. When you have crappy parents and you don't work, its not racism, its you.

Do we need some quotas on the supreme court too? I mean there aren't any asian justices... some religious diversity would help too, if Kagan is confirmed you realize there will be 6 catholics and 3 jews on the court. You do realize that catholics basically believe the pope is God right? The pope is infalliable in Catholic doctrine unless later declared a fake pope.



Oh for fucks sake.

Asians Stereotypes:
Hot
Good at math
Terrible Drivers

African-American Stereotypes:
Spearkchuckers
Dumber
More violent
rapists
drug users
gang members

You're fucking retarded if you don't think that different races have different stereotypes, and frankly I'm betting that if "affirmative action" states "add more minorities" then adding more asians is a LOT more palatable than adding more niggers.

Especially since asian chicks are hotter!



I really don't conser myself overly sensitive about this stuff, but you really shouldn't use the n word even in a forum like this. It makes you come off like a 12 year old.

I am not trying to argue that stereotypes should not and cannot be used, but how would you feel if you were that young black male who did not get a job because someone thought you were one of these in an interview:

African-American Stereotypes:
Spearkchuckers
Dumber
More violent
rapists
drug users
gang members


Everyone here likes to use the word "fair". . .not getting that job would not be "fair" and that happens far more than any of us wants to admit. That is why we will need affirmative action.

Did any of you take that Harvard IAT test I linked? That test has actually been used for a long time to show people that affirmative action is still necesary. Frankly, I cannot disagree.

Btw. . .affirmative action almost never comes into play for asians. . .not sure how we got on that tangent.

Take this test (10 minutes) if you have not already. It was eye opening for me:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/

Go to that link
Click "go to demonstration tests"
Agree
Then find the "Race IAT"

do eet
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:51 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:lol hillarious website corth.

The best argument for quotas at colleges is a few studies that claimed that the student body overall achieved better when more diverse. I don't know how valid those studies are.

The best argument against affirmative action and also the best case of discrimination is asians. Asians are over represented at colleges nationwide. They were so significantly over represented that colleges started actively implementing maximum enrollement numbers for asians. Are asians just not worthy of white prejudicism to keep their enrollment down? or is the real issue got nothing to do with racism and has something to do with i dunno you actually knowing who your father is and having two parents that will beat your ass if you don't bring home a 4.0 and will sacrifice getting their nails done so they can pay rent on a band instrument? When parents work hard and kids work hard, you go to college. When you have crappy parents and you don't work, its not racism, its you.

Do we need some quotas on the supreme court too? I mean there aren't any asian justices... some religious diversity would help too, if Kagan is confirmed you realize there will be 6 catholics and 3 jews on the court. You do realize that catholics basically believe the pope is God right? The pope is infalliable in Catholic doctrine unless later declared a fake pope.



Oh for fucks sake.

Asians Stereotypes:
Hot
Good at math
Terrible Drivers

African-American Stereotypes:
Spearkchuckers
Dumber
More violent
rapists
drug users
gang members

You're fucking retarded if you don't think that different races have different stereotypes, and frankly I'm betting that if "affirmative action" states "add more minorities" then adding more asians is a LOT more palatable than adding more niggers.

Especially since asian chicks are hotter!


Actually asians are getting a big rap for gangsters, and id rather mess with a black gang member than an asian one.....thse fuckers are crazy!
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:21 pm

Tanras wrote:I really don't conser myself overly sensitive about this stuff, but you really shouldn't use the n word even in a forum like this. It makes you come off like a 12 year old.


I used it for a reason. That word is still used by racists today. It's still part of how many white people view black people. (It probably doesn't help that they use it to refer to themselves these days!) When was the last time you heard anyone say "chink" on the other hand?

Btw. . .affirmative action almost never comes into play for asians. . .not sure how we got on that tangent.


The Anti-AA people think that Asians are succesful without AA, so it's not necessary for other minorities. I was just pointing out that the racial stereotypes we have of asians are not nearly as negative as for other minorities. When your stereotype includes "really good at math" for instance, it's hardly a reason not to hire someone!

Take this test (10 minutes) if you have not already. It was eye opening for me:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/

Go to that link
Click "go to demonstration tests"
Agree
Then find the "Race IAT"

do eet



"Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between European American and African American."
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:51 pm

Sarvis wrote:The Anti-AA people think that Asians are succesful without AA, so it's not necessary for other minorities. I was just pointing out that the racial stereotypes we have of asians are not nearly as negative as for other minorities.


WHY do you think that is Sarvis? I think that's one of the core questions that need to be asked when talking about Affirmative Action.


BTW, same here: Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between European American and African American. I took the Fat-Thin one too. It showed a slight preference for fat people over thin people. I'm normal in weight.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:53 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:The Anti-AA people think that Asians are succesful without AA, so it's not necessary for other minorities. I was just pointing out that the racial stereotypes we have of asians are not nearly as negative as for other minorities.


WHY do you think that is Sarvis? I think that's one of the core questions that need to be asked when talking about Affirmative Action.


BTW, same here: Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between European American and African American. I took the Fat-Thin one too. It showed a slight preference for fat people over thin people. I'm normal in weight.



I had a random theory last night.

First of all, when Asians and Europeans first met they were on more even technological/civilized footing. When Europeans met African-Americans they were tribes with little or no technology. So first association with Asians is "these people look different, but are just as advanced as us and ooh look spices and gun powder!" When we met Africans it was "these people are basically animals, let's cage them up and make them slaves."

Those first impressions have persisted ever since, with some modern people still thinking that blacks are somehow less evolved.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Tanras » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:56 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Tanras wrote:I really don't conser myself overly sensitive about this stuff, but you really shouldn't use the n word even in a forum like this. It makes you come off like a 12 year old.


I used it for a reason. That word is still used by racists today. It's still part of how many white people view black people. (It probably doesn't help that they use it to refer to themselves these days!) When was the last time you heard anyone say "chink" on the other hand?

Btw. . .affirmative action almost never comes into play for asians. . .not sure how we got on that tangent.


The Anti-AA people think that Asians are succesful without AA, so it's not necessary for other minorities. I was just pointing out that the racial stereotypes we have of asians are not nearly as negative as for other minorities. When your stereotype includes "really good at math" for instance, it's hardly a reason not to hire someone!

Take this test (10 minutes) if you have not already. It was eye opening for me:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/

Go to that link
Click "go to demonstration tests"
Agree
Then find the "Race IAT"

do eet



"Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between European American and African American."



Still not cool to use the n word. Just don't do it.

You wto are the first two people I have ever met who have gotten even scores, congrats I guess :)

I never score even when I take it.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby kiryan » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:37 am

last time in LA I was called a chink. When I was a kid in middle school I was called gook. I'm only half korean btw and I've been called a mexican before too.

I did the fat thin one, I have a moderate preference for thin people. Yep, thats true, but mostly cuz I find thin chicks hot. It was interesting that it was easier for me to associate thin and good and fat and bad than it was thin and bad and fat and good. I had to think more (actually I had to double check rather than think) when fat was paired with good.

(i think it was a moderate, iirc there were 3 categories and I was moderate although after I closed it I was thinking "slight", but I thought slight was grouped with no, so no or slight preference, moderate, and major... I don't remember).

hmm so asians have positive stereotypes so its a poor example of racism. No its a great example of racism, just not an example of negative racism. To say white people or institutions are inherently racist and we need AA solely because of the negative stereotyping is not fair. Racism is either the problem or it isn't and clearly because asians are positively stereotyped, racism is not the problem. THe problem is dumb lazy minorities raised in cultures with the wrong values to achievei n American society.

Asian gangs have always been around and yea... its not a good idea to take an asian for granted when they threaten you or appear unstable. They tend to apply themselves as enthusiastically to violence and revenge when they perceive a wrong as they do to making money and education. above all, I wouldn't suggest getting caught looking at or hitting on a vietnamese chick with her 1st generation brothers around.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Tanras » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:05 pm

The race one is the "famous" one, you should try it. The rest are more experimental.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:07 pm

kiryan wrote:hmm so asians have positive stereotypes so its a poor example of racism. No its a great example of racism,


No one questioned it being an example of racism.

just not an example of negative racism. To say white people or institutions are inherently racist and we need AA solely because of the negative stereotyping is not fair.


Why not? Why do we not need AA to compensate for negative stereotyping. Why do we not need it when so many people see black and automatically think "dumb lazy minorities raised in cultures with the wrong values to achievei n American society."



Racism is either the problem or it isn't and clearly because asians are positively stereotyped, racism is not the problem.


Ok, fine. Racism isn't the problem, negative stereotyping is. How does that affect the need or effectiveness of Affirmative Action? Oh yeah, it doesn't.


I wouldn't suggest getting caught looking at or hitting on a vietnamese chick with her 1st generation brothers around.


Heh... I'm practically guaranteed to break that rule one of these days. Although maybe I should be worried about Hanh, since I pissed her off by handling the breakup badly right before she went for a bunch of military training? ;)
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby kiryan » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:41 pm

if asians and irish can go from negative stereotypes to positive ones, why not blacks and hispanics? Ever watch blazing saddles, "well take the niggers and the chinks, but not the irish". Irish had a tremendous history of being targets of racism as well as the africans and americans. Do you associate negatively with asians and irish? Whose fault is that, oh yea WHITE people.

how does affirmative action help address negative stereotypes. Now, how does AA foster racial prejudicism and hate through its special rights?

assuming your still a proponent of affirmative action, when will it be time to repeal it. Will minorities go along with repealing it when it is time? How will we ever get to the point where AA should be repealed if it only lowers the standards that minorities have to measure up to?

what are we going to do about racism within minority groups. for example, koreans show an extreme tendency to shop at korean owned businesses. Hispanic and african american attitudes towards white people are often racist. I'll again point out that 90% of black people vote for democrats. Is that racism? Its funny that liberal attitudes tend to say anti white racism is good and ok, but racism that affects their preferred minority is a terrible evil. liberals enshrine racism into law and make it a central party platform for their politics. If I'm a racist, its because Democrats made me one.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:52 am

kiryan wrote:if asians and irish can go from negative stereotypes to positive ones,


When did the stereotypes for Asians change? And Irish? To the best of my knowledge all Irish are still drunkards.

Irish had a tremendous history of being targets of racism


It's not racism if you're the same race. If the "Irish" have overcome their "stereotype" in any fashion, maybe it's because you can't tell an Irishman from an American by sight?

how does affirmative action help address negative stereotypes. Now, how does AA foster racial prejudicism and hate through its special rights?


1) It gives minorities opportunities they would otherwise not have, which allows them to provide a better chance for their children to access better educational opportunities
2) If you're forced to work with a minority every day, you may actually learn he's not much different from you or your other coworkers. Even if he's lazy, he's not going to be lazier than the white guy 3 cubes down who sits on Facebook all day.


assuming your still a proponent of affirmative action, when will it be time to repeal it.


when people stop saying "umb lazy minorities raised in cultures with the wrong values to achievei n American society."

Will minorities go along with repealing it when it is time? How will we ever get to the point where AA should be repealed if it only lowers the standards that minorities have to measure up to?


1) Doubt it, but they'd have a pretty weak argument if you could show they were being treated fairly. Too bad you can't!
2) That's not what it does. It forces people to accept minorities of equivalent qualifications rather than just hiring non-minorities with equivalent or even lesser qualifications.

what are we going to do about racism within minority groups. for example, koreans show an extreme tendency to shop at korean owned businesses. Hispanic and african american attitudes towards white people are often racist.


Can you blame them? You keep saying they are "dumb lazy minorities raised in cultures with the wrong values to achievei n American society."

I'll again point out that 90% of black people vote for democrats. Is that racism?


No, voting Democrat is just smart. :P

Its funny that liberal attitudes tend to say anti white racism is good and ok, but racism that affects their preferred minority is a terrible evil. liberals enshrine racism into law and make it a central party platform for their politics. If I'm a racist, its because Democrats made me one.


Democrats never forced you to call anyone "Dumb lazy minorities raised in cultures with the wrong values to achievei n American society."

You can bitch about blacks being racist when they have enough upper management positions to deny you jobs based on your skin color.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:51 pm

Sarvis wrote:You can bitch about blacks being racist when they have enough upper management positions to deny you jobs based on your skin color.

The Obama Administration and labor enforcement. Hmm.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:16 pm

Sarvis wrote:The Anti-AA people think that Asians are succesful without AA, so it's not necessary for other minorities. I was just pointing out that the racial stereotypes we have of asians are not nearly as negative as for other minorities.


Image
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:26 pm

I don't see the point of you posting that comic. I know there WAS racism against asians, but that does nothing to show that our stereotypes of them were as bad as for other minorities. Do you have something to add to my list of asian racial stereotypes? Good at math, hot, can't drive... Kiryan added Driven and hard working. You add... a comic pointing out that we excluded them at one point.

Good job.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Corth » Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:15 pm

There are plenty of brave frenchmen, lazy asians, and blacks with small penises. It is impossible to obtain any sort of insight into an individual by evaluating their racial, ethnic, or religious background. But, and this is an important distinction, I think that very often there is a kernel of truth in some of these racial, ethnic, and religious stereotypes which might not apply to any particular person, but as a whole could reflect accurately on a group. I think there is a certain amount of collective self-delusion involved in our reflexive denouncement of stereotypes.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:28 pm

Corth wrote:There are plenty of brave frenchmen, lazy asians, and blacks with small penises. It is impossible to obtain any sort of insight into an individual by evaluating their racial, ethnic, or religious background.


Interesting edit... but anyway:

Yes, it is impossible to obtain any sort of insight into an individual by evaluating their racial, ethnic or religious background but, and this is the important point, people in power will do so anyway. That's why we have Affirmative Action.


But, and this is an important distinction, I think that very often there is a kernel of truth in some of these racial, ethnic, and religious stereotypes which might not apply to any particular person, but as a whole could reflect accurately on a group. I think there is a certain amount of collective self-delusion involved in our reflexive denouncement of stereotypes.


Corth, you're a reasonable, logical guy even if you are a Libertarian. Go find the data to back you up.

I think, if this was ever done correctly, you would find that a person's local culture will have far more of an impact than their race. You'll find white kids that grow up in predominantly black areas will act "black" while black kids growing up in white areas will act "white." There is no RACIAL component here, but since the hiring manager will make his decision based on racial profiling the white kid might make it out of the ghetto while the black kid who grew up in a nice area may never get a decent job and fall back into it.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:04 pm

Sarvis, which racial group would you say NEEDS Affirmative Action the most.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:14 pm

Rednecks.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Corth » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:27 pm

Sarvis,

I tend to agree that ones 'local culture' as you put it has more of an impact than race or otherwise. Like as you say, a white kid growing up in a black neighborhood will act 'more black'. But the other side of the coin is that by saying this you are recognizing that there is a general concept of 'being black' which presumably can be boiled down to certain characteristics or dare I say stereotypes. So yes, genetically there might not be a substantial difference in the capacity of a little black kid or a little white kid, but as a matter of environment, they often grow up within different 'local cultures' that effect their development and values in a predictable way.

As for the edit - which I got in before your reply, I originally went with the played out 'blacks are lazy' theme. I reconsidered because I was concerned that using this particular stereotype to illustrate my point might get more attention than the point itself. I figured instead I would use a positive stereotype that blacks are lucky enough to have. And then I also replaced "poles are dumb" with "french are cowards" because I don't like the French. :) J/K!
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:39 pm

Corth wrote:Sarvis,

I tend to agree that ones 'local culture' as you put it has more of an impact than race or otherwise. Like as you say, a white kid growing up in a black neighborhood will act 'more black'. But the other side of the coin is that by saying this you are recognizing that there is a general concept of 'being black' which presumably can be boiled down to certain characteristics or dare I say stereotypes.


Possibly, but whereas many people would boil those characteristics down to "black" they would more accurately be termed as "poor, inner-city upbringing."

Note that I used black in my previous post because it would more easily let you understand what I meant. That is how alive, persistent and insidious racism is and why we need Affirmative Action to help counter it.


After all, even though you knew exactly what I meant a black man from Long Island probably isn't.

So yes, genetically there might not be a substantial difference in the capacity of a little black kid or a little white kid, but as a matter of environment, they often grow up within different 'local cultures' that effect their development and values in a predictable way.


So let's say Inner City Youth (IYC) works his ass off, gets a 4.0 in High School, gets a 4.0 in college, has plenty of volunteer programs and such.

Scenario 1: Can't get an interview at a good job, slides into debt on top of his student loans, and ends up stuck in the ghetto with his kids in the same environment we all agree is a local culture breeding a stereotype.

Scenario 2: Get's an interview, gets the job, moves to Long Island and raises his kids in an area that breeds wealth and opportunity.

Which scenario is more likely if the kid's name is Mike? Jamal? Will the hiring manager read past the name on the cover letter if it's too "black" sounding?

Which scenario is more likely with or without Affirmative Action?

Which set of his kids will be more likely to act counter to the stereotype when they grow up? Will have better opportunities at success? More contacts?
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:42 pm

Sarvis wrote:Rednecks.

At least you've learned not to be so bigoted as to believe that a specific race group NEEDS affirmative action. Thank you.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:28 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Rednecks.

At least you've learned not to be so bigoted as to believe that a specific race group NEEDS affirmative action. Thank you.


The need for Affirmative Action has NOTHING to do with the merits of the group, and EVERYTHING to do with the inability of people in power to realize that people should be judged as individuals.

It is not bigoted to say blacks need AA because 70% of whites have a subconscious negative association to black people, as was shown in the test Tanras linked us to.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:09 pm

Sarvis wrote:The need for Affirmative Action has NOTHING to do with the merits of the group, and EVERYTHING to do with the inability of people in power to realize that people should be judged as individuals.

You have zero right to force onto other people your bigoted tyranny. We have freedom in this country and liberty that allows what is good and right to rise on their own merits and power, so we don't have to watch as people shove their moronic ideas down the throats of the minority. Your generalization is unsupported, baseless, and shameful. You don't even know any people in any real power.

Sarvis wrote:blacks need AA

That is what makes you a bigot and a racist. I've not met a single person able to work that hasn't been able to stand on their own two feet and make their way in this world under their own power, black, white, or otherwise.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:14 pm

Sarvis wrote:The need for Affirmative Action has NOTHING to do with the merits of the group, and EVERYTHING to do with the inability of people in power to realize that people should be judged as individuals.


Then why not treat cases of possible racism as such; as individual cases. Instead, AA is treating all employers and universities as a group, as "possible racists".

Sarvis wrote:It is not bigoted to say blacks need AA because 70% of whites have a subconscious negative association to black people, as was shown in the test Tanras linked us to.


As far as I remember, the test didn't show a negative association anywhere. It showed preference in degrees towards one group over another. My kids prefer chocolate milk over strawberry milk. It doesn't mean they have a negative association towards strawberry milk.

I could have forgotten however, and perhaps I'm mistaken here.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:15 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:The need for Affirmative Action has NOTHING to do with the merits of the group, and EVERYTHING to do with the inability of people in power to realize that people should be judged as individuals.


Then why not treat cases of possible racism as such; as individual cases. Instead, AA is treating all employers and universities as a group, as "possible racists".


When the number of people you'll have to deal with "individually" is up to 70% of the populace... that gets kind of inefficient, no? Not to mention dealing with all the individual claims, a person having to find some way to prove he was discriminated against and a lot of other crap. Saying you need to have X minorities is just simpler.

Sarvis wrote:It is not bigoted to say blacks need AA because 70% of whites have a subconscious negative association to black people, as was shown in the test Tanras linked us to.


As far as I remember, the test didn't show a negative association anywhere. It showed preference in degrees towards one group over another. My kids prefer chocolate milk over strawberry milk. It doesn't mean they have a negative association towards strawberry milk.

I could have forgotten however, and perhaps I'm mistaken here.


I'm pretty sure they actually used the words "negative association" in the graph at the end, but there's no way to see that graph without taking the test again... at least not that I can find. :(

EDIT: Ok, it's an Implicit Association Test. It's not looking for "preferences" but for associations. They trade you off on black-good vs white-bad and then black-bad vs. white good categorizations to see what you automatically associate. Not really sure how that works, but it's discussed here: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/d ... nding.html

70% of the population has an automatic negative association with black people. At least when I took it, it was something like 27% extremely negative, 23% moderately negative and 14% slightly negative.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:39 pm

Sarvis wrote:70% of the population has an automatic negative association with black people. At least when I took it, it was something like 27% extremely negative, 23% moderately negative and 14% slightly negative.


I took the test again Sarvis just to confirm what I had said before. There is no negative association of any kind in this test, nor is it mentioned anywhere. The results show PREFERENCE towards one group over another period. I prefer chocolate milk over regular milk. But I still like regular milk.

Image

70% of those who took the test have an automatic preference towards Whites. Which doesn't really say much really. If I have spent my entire life living in jungles of Africa, you bet your ass I'm gonna have a strong preference towards Blacks.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Tanras » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:21 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:The need for Affirmative Action has NOTHING to do with the merits of the group, and EVERYTHING to do with the inability of people in power to realize that people should be judged as individuals.


Then why not treat cases of possible racism as such; as individual cases. Instead, AA is treating all employers and universities as a group, as "possible racists".

Sarvis wrote:It is not bigoted to say blacks need AA because 70% of whites have a subconscious negative association to black people, as was shown in the test Tanras linked us to.


As far as I remember, the test didn't show a negative association anywhere. It showed preference in degrees towards one group over another. My kids prefer chocolate milk over strawberry milk. It doesn't mean they have a negative association towards strawberry milk.

I could have forgotten however, and perhaps I'm mistaken here.



Also worth noting. . .and I only know this because I took a class on this stuff. . .the preference for white actually occurs in black people as well albeit to a slightly less pronounced degree.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Tanras » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:32 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:70% of the population has an automatic negative association with black people. At least when I took it, it was something like 27% extremely negative, 23% moderately negative and 14% slightly negative.


I took the test again Sarvis just to confirm what I had said before. There is no negative association of any kind in this test, nor is it mentioned anywhere. The results show PREFERENCE towards one group over another period. I prefer chocolate milk over regular milk. But I still like regular milk.

Image

70% of those who took the test have an automatic preference towards Whites. Which doesn't really say much really. If I have spent my entire life living in jungles of Africa, you bet your ass I'm gonna have a strong preference towards Blacks.


I think the point is that the reason why is immaterial. What is material is that you have an automatic preference which does impact your decisions on a subconscious level. At its core, that is the argument for continued affirmative action. Most people have an automatic response to choose white over black if the two are equally qualified. . .affirmative action is the only thing that has been shown to correct that imbalance. It is far from perfect, but I do believe it is needed.

I suspect that if you were black and you wanted someone to hire you, you would be pissed if 7 of 10 people hired the white guy because they just prefer white people. I am also pretty sure it would not make you feel better if they said "don't worry, I still like you. . .not going to hire you, but I still like you.".
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:57 pm

Yours is a good point Tanras, and the idea behind AA is a good idea in theory. But the practical application of it is not. Don't you think AA creates racism in and of itself by forcing companies/universities to HAVE TO take a certain percentage of minorities?

Well, except Asians...
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:00 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Yours is a good point Tanras, and the idea behind AA is a good idea in theory. But the practical application of it is not. Don't you think AA creates racism in and of itself by forcing companies/universities to HAVE TO take a certain percentage of minorities?

Well, except Asians...


Like I said, by forcing people to work together they will learn they aren't terribly different after all.
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Re: Voted this morning

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:42 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Yours is a good point Tanras, and the idea behind AA is a good idea in theory. But the practical application of it is not. Don't you think AA creates racism in and of itself by forcing companies/universities to HAVE TO take a certain percentage of minorities?

Well, except Asians...


Like I said, by forcing people to work together they will learn they aren't terribly different after all.

Indeed, all fall to the stalinist's bullet.

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