Krauthammer on Obama

[Corth]

I've been trying to put my finger on what it is that I personally dislike about Obama. Of course I hate his politics - but then again I wasn't exactly a Bill Clinton supporter but I still thought he seemed like a nice enough guy. It took this Krauthammer piece to clarify my feelings on Obama.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04277.html

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

Good article.

[Ragorn]

Rubbish hackery.

[teflor the ranger]

He's an apologist when people should be apologizing to us. More of the bullshit liberals love while they homogenize and sterilize our society, until not a single individual thinker is left.

[Sarvis]

He's an apologist when people should be apologizing to us. More of the bullshit liberals love while they homogenize and sterilize our society, until not a single individual thinker is left.

Is your Two Minutes Hate done for today?

[teflor the ranger]

Is your Two Minutes Hate done for today?

Thank you for confirming that you have no clue about what hate is.

[Sarvis]

Liberal... err... Eastasians have always been against everything you were for! We were always at war with Libera... err... Eastasians!

[Corth]

1984 reference fail?

[Ragorn]

There is no room for free thought in the conservative agenda, because all of your decisions were made for you 19 centuries before your grandparents were born. The Party of Oppression is very interested in telling you who you can marry or sleep with, which words you're allowed to say on television, which substances you're allowed to ingest in your own home, what you're allowed to do with your own body, and what your children are allowed to learn in school.

Follow the bible, citizen.

[Sarvis]

There is no room for free thought in the conservative agenda, because all of your decisions were made for you 19 centuries before your grandparents were born. The Party of Oppression is very interested in telling you who you can marry or sleep with, which words you're allowed to say on television, which substances you're allowed to ingest in your own home, what you're allowed to do with your own body, and what your children are allowed to learn in school.

Follow the bible, citizen.

And if you want to think anything else, you're an enemy of the country!

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

There is no room for free thought in the liberal agenda, because all of your decisions were made for you by scientist people who know everything you need. The Party of Oppression is very interested in telling you morals don't exist, which words you're not allowed to say to other people, which substances must use in your own home, what you're allowed to do with your own body, and what your children are allowed to learn in school.

And if you want to think anything else, you're an ignorant, stupid, racist bigot.

[Sarvis]

There is no room for free thought in the liberal agenda, because all of your decisions were made for you by scientist people who know everything you need. The Party of Oppression is very interested in telling you morals don't exist, which words you're not allowed to say to other people, which substances must use in your own home, what you're allowed to do with your own body, and what your children are allowed to learn in school.

And if you want to think anything else, you're an ignorant, stupid, racist bigot.

:roll: If only any of that were true. What are you going to cite? Anti-smoking laws? Those laws are about where you can smoke in order to protect OTHERS, not yourself. No one says Morals don't exist, but YOUR morals shouldn't define MINE. There's one word you're not supposed to say to black people, but it happens to be conservatives that keep 7 other words off the airwaves. What you can do with your own body? Who was it blocking abortions again? Who thinks the only option a person should have with regards to sex is to not have it?

In short, pretty much nothing you just said is true.

[teflor the ranger]

Polarization on simultaneously false and inaccurate stereotyping .... success?

[Corth]

Both sides try and inflict their moral judgments on everyone. That is a given. We can go back and forth on that all day. Personally, when it comes to morality I usually find myself on the liberal side of things. I'm in favor of gay marriage, decriminalizing drugs, etc. I think Creationism is a silly idea. On the other hand, I think these sorts of things should generally be decided at the local level. I have no problem with Georgia mandating a creationism curriculum if the elected leaders of Georgia decide to do so. Liberals generally want to nationalize the morality debate, and that is one major point where I disagree with them.

Morality aside, lets talk about the philosophical differences between the two sides. This is theoretical because ultimately they are just politicians and their overriding goal is to do what it will take to get re-elected. But the core difference in ideas is that Liberals wish to expand the size and role of government, while Conservatives (true to their name) wish to maintain the status quo, or perhaps even contract government. This is one of these core points where you have to decide: "Which side am I on"? Everything that I have learned and experienced in this world leads me to firmly believe that the power of government should be firmly limited. I have seen time and time again the unintended consequences of well intentioned policy. I have also seen the enormous inefficiency of government as a service provider. You might disagree. This is one of the things we have debated ad nauseum on this BBS.

Now lets address what truly matters - the money. As I mentioned before, the philosophy is just theoretical. Politicians make their living bringing home the bacon. To see the difference here between Liberals and Democrats, look at their constituencies - the people they are trying to make happy and get votes from. Liberals try and get votes from people that want services, but do not want to contribute money towards those services. Generally (but not always) the poor. Minorities are a huge supporter of the Democratic party, largely because they tend to be poor. Conservatives are more likely to be white and middle class or rich. These are people who don't stand to gain as much from governmental services, and certainly don't want to pay an outsize share. So again, this is one of those times where you stop and think to yourself: "Which side is working in MY interests?" Selfish, yes, but more than anything else this question and its resulting answer tends to determine one's world view.

[kiryan]

I kinda agree with Sarvis Adriorn, the right has a long history of forcing people to act morally through legislation... no butsecks, no dancing, prohibition... those were all meant to create a certain kind of wholesome family environment. Liberals do the exact same thing, but they think its ok because its based on a bunch of politicized "experts" and "scientists". So you have liberals controlling your life based on whats good for the public according to their environmental / social agenda and you have the right controlling your life because its what God says is right. Libertarians are the only ones that are different.

Corth, if you would've listened to Rush Limbaugh you would've already know why you don't like Obama. He's been calling Obama narcissitic since about July before the election. He railed all over Obama for his international appearance during the election (seriously you are campaiging for president of the USA and you go to fucking europe? for what?). He was beside himself with criticism of the "apology tour" you know where Obama went to muslim countries to apologize in person and filmed videos to reach out to oppressive regimes he couldn't visit... Rush also had this one right, while everyone was calling Obama post-racial, Rush said Obama is post-American. In other words, an end to american exceptionalism and the eventual subjection of the USA to international will (probably through the UN framework). Rush does get pretty crazy, but when he's right he is right.

[teflor the ranger]

Are there two people on this forum that define "conservative" and "liberal" the same way?

I doubt this highly.

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

There is no room for free thought in the liberal agenda, because all of your decisions were made for you by scientist people who know everything you need. The Party of Oppression is very interested in telling you morals don't exist, which words you're not allowed to say to other people, which substances must use in your own home, what you're allowed to do with your own body, and what your children are allowed to learn in school.

And if you want to think anything else, you're an ignorant, stupid, racist bigot.

:roll: If only any of that were true. What are you going to cite? Anti-smoking laws? Those laws are about where you can smoke in order to protect OTHERS, not yourself. No one says Morals don't exist, but YOUR morals shouldn't define MINE. There's one word you're not supposed to say to black people, but it happens to be conservatives that keep 7 other words off the airwaves. What you can do with your own body? Who was it blocking abortions again? Who thinks the only option a person should have with regards to sex is to not have it?

In short, pretty much nothing you just said is true.

Plenty of liberals in education want to proclaim the non-existence of good and evil, of absolute right and wrong, of global morals, etc. Laws were established in Europe that make it criminal to say the Holocaust did not exist. Hate speech. Using only certain light bulbs. Using only certain fuels. Abortions deal with harming someone else's body, not yours. Al Gore. Environmentalism. Global Warming hysteria. Cap and Trade. Etc. Etc.

Everything I said was true Sarvis. But in your mind you only focused on certain points. I also did not say what Ragorn said was wrong.

If you study 1984, since you often quote it sarcastically, and the life of Orwell, you'll see how he was a pretty liberal minded guy; even fought with the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War. But it was there that he realized that the left wasn't what he thought liberalism should be or stood for. He realized the left was becoming more and more like the Totalitarian Big Brother in 1984. Many believe he would have been a Conservative in today's world. I disagree. I think he still would have been a Liberal, but a good Liberal, an old school liberal...helping others in our society through government, but a government extremely limited in the scope of its power. That is where modern day Liberals fail, in my opinion. I think Corth said something along those lines.

I kinda agree with Sarvis Adriorn, the right has a long history of forcing people to act morally through legislation.

In the past Kiryan, 100% agree. In the present, I disagree. I think that has been leaning more and more to the left for quite a while.

[teflor the ranger]

To be honest, I think nearly all parties that are actually interested in politics - and thus - power, are interested in establishing a central state with mindless subjects that toe the intellectual/idealogical/single mind.

It is rare that man can stand for the things he cannot stand, all for the sake of liberty.

[Sarvis]

Plenty of liberals in education want to proclaim the non-existence of good and evil, of absolute right and wrong, of global morals, etc.

Not a law. Nor does it attempt to force you to act or believe anything you don't want to. In fact, arguing that such thoughts are bad means YOU want to censor someone else's ideas. Conservative.

Laws were established in Europe that make it criminal to say the Holocaust did not exist.

Germany, yes, for special reasons. What's your point? Doesn't apply here, and no one has ever even remotely suggested such a law.

Hate speech.

Frowned upon, yes. Not illegal. No one fines a TV show because they use the N word, but let one curse word slip and the FCC is on you like white on rice thanks to Republicans. To the extent "Hate Speech" is legally taboo it is when it incites violence in the targetted groups. So it's basically the same category as yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

Using only certain light bulbs.

Not a law.

Using only certain fuels.

Not a law. In fact, I'd say Republicans are forcing us to use only certain fuels by blocking attempts to create alternatives. Creating scarcity is good for people in power, after all. That was the entire point of 1984!

Abortions deal with harming someone else's body, not yours.

That's up for debate, but Liberals say leave it up to the people involved while Republicans want to legislate it into nonexistence the same way they have prostitution and drugs. (Which is to say they have only made it more dangerous by making it impossible to provide safely.)

Al Gore.

What about him?

Environmentalism.

What about it?

Global Warming hysteria. Cap and Trade. Etc. Etc.

See, here's the thing. You're confusing Liberals PROVIDING INFORMATION with legislating their morality.

Liberal: If we keep using fossil fuels we'll run out! We should look for alternatives...
Republican: It's now illegal for you to marry that person.

See the difference?

Let me guess: No.

If you study 1984, since you often quote it sarcastically, and the life of Orwell, you'll see how he was a pretty liberal minded guy; even fought with the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War. But it was there that he realized that the left wasn't what he thought liberalism should be or stood for. He realized the left was becoming more and more like the Totalitarian Big Brother in 1984. Many believe he would have been a Conservative in today's world. I disagree. I think he still would have been a Liberal, but a good Liberal, an old school liberal...helping others in our society through government, but a government extremely limited in the scope of its power. That is where modern day Liberals fail, in my opinion. I think Corth said something along those lines.

I may not be an expert on Orwell, but I can see time and again where Republicans do or say something that seems to be straight from the book. As for limited government power, which party gave us Homeland Security? Which party wanted to tap phone lines without warrants? Hell, how long do you think it would be before the guys who want warrantless wiretapping want a camera in your TV?

In the past Kiryan, 100% agree. In the present, I disagree. I think that has been leaning more and more to the left for quite a while.

You haven't pointed at any legislation that controls behavior, except maybe hate speech but laws against inciting violence have been around far longer than this debate. In fact, that's probably the first thing we needed law for after we developed means of communication.

Show me where Liberals are telling me who I can marry, or passing a law telling me what I need to learn (NCLB was a Republican thing remember!)

[teflor the ranger]

Show me where Liberals are telling me who I can marry, or passing a law telling me what I need to learn (NCLB was a Republican thing remember!)

Please tell me you're not so ignorant as to believe that the liberal agenda doesn't seek to control behavior and ideology, as well as to put many controls on the people.

For that matter, please tell me you're not so stupid as to see the complete flip side of your own argument - that liberals are telling you who's marriages you have to respect, and that liberals are telling you that teachers must not be held accountable.

[Ragorn]

There is no room for free thought in the liberal agenda, because all of your decisions were made for you by scientist people who know everything you need. The Party of Oppression is very interested in telling you morals don't exist, which words you're not allowed to say to other people, which substances must use in your own home, what you're allowed to do with your own body, and what your children are allowed to learn in school.

And if you want to think anything else, you're an ignorant, stupid, racist bigot.

I'll give you a point for effort, but really, you're just trolling while everything I said was true.

1/10

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

you're just trolling while everything I said was true.

haha.

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

Plenty of liberals in education want to proclaim the non-existence of good and evil, of absolute right and wrong, of global morals, etc.

Not a law. Nor does it attempt to force you to act or believe anything you don't want to. In fact, arguing that such thoughts are bad means YOU want to censor someone else's ideas. Conservative.

Not a law? Who the fuck cares? The majority of educators are liberals and have controlled the education system in this country since the 60s. What they teach is what students are exposed to/learning. Sometimes its been for the better, most of the time it hasn't. But regardless, they have controlled what students are "learning".

Laws were established in Europe that make it criminal to say the Holocaust did not exist.

Germany, yes, for special reasons. What's your point? Doesn't apply here, and no one has ever even remotely suggested such a law.[/quote]

No, not just Germany, Europe. England just recently sent a guy to jail for publishing a book saying the Holocaust didn't occur, etc. Notice you are saying Republicans might at some point suggest putting cameras in our TVs. As far as I know, that has never been suggested in Congress.

Hate speech.

Frowned upon, yes. Not illegal. No one fines a TV show because they use the N word, but let one curse word slip and the FCC is on you like white on rice thanks to Republicans. To the extent "Hate Speech" is legally taboo it is when it incites violence in the targetted groups. So it's basically the same category as yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre.[/quote]

They don't fine you? They certainly fire you for it. And btw, how is saying nigger the same as yelling fire? One of them makes me fear for my life...the other...makes me...angry?

Using only certain light bulbs.

Not a law.[/quote]

It's a law passed by Congress to eliminate incandescent light bulbs. A law.

Using only certain fuels.

Not a law. In fact, I'd say Republicans are forcing us to use only certain fuels by blocking attempts to create alternatives. Creating scarcity is good for people in power, after all. That was the entire point of 1984![/quote]

Say it correctly Sarvis, instead of spinning it. They blocked attempts to spend government money on that. Any free enterprise can pursue such an endeavor just fine. Like Edison did.

Al Gore.

What about him?

Environmentalism.

What about it? [/quote]

Come on... :)

Global Warming hysteria. Cap and Trade. Etc. Etc.

See, here's the thing. You're confusing Liberals PROVIDING INFORMATION with legislating their morality.
[/quote]

Really Sarvis? Liberals aren't trying to convince us that we need to save mother Gaia? They haven't fudged numbers to accomplish this goal? Or stated that certain numbers shown as statistics are FACT because they said so? Or failed to want to discuss and debate findings with scientists who feel differently? Nope, I think I'm not confusing legislating morality at all.

I may not be an expert on Orwell, but I can see time and again where Republicans do or say something that seems to be straight from the book. As for limited government power, which party gave us Homeland Security? Which party wanted to tap phone lines without warrants? Hell, how long do you think it would be before the guys who want warrantless wiretapping want a camera in your TV?

Never? And you are right Sarvis. Republicans in Congress have done things that fit the 1984 model. 100% true. Liberals are doing it more, and are doing it more to the Totalitarian aspect, TODAY, than Conservatives. That is my opinion.

Show me where Liberals are telling me who I can marry, or passing a law telling me what I need to learn (NCLB was a Republican thing remember!)

Think about this last point especially Sarvis, think about what you're saying. You'll see the stealthy hypocrisy in what you just said. Liberals are telling me that a man can marry a man. Conservatives are telling me that a man cannot marry a man. Both groups are doing the exact same thing. You're legislating morality just as much as we are. Plain and simple. Same thing goes for many of the points above. The idea that "any person should be able to marry who they please" IS legislating morality and behavior. Saying "women should be able to abort if they want to" IS legislating morality.

Liberals have controlled education since the 60s, etc. etc. Liberals eliminated many "Classic" novels from curriculum and replaced them with lesser known novels that have a social message, be it racism, civil rights, etc. Liberals have destroyed the education system in this country (with occasional help from Republican congressmen who take away more and more money from education). NCLB is not the only law that has ever been passed dealing with education.

I'll go back to the same point I've mentioned in several other threads Sarvis. You're defending the modern day liberal platform and the Democrat party at all costs. You are the propaganda spokesperson for anything considered liberal or Democrat today. While I call myself Conservative, I do NOT defend the Republican party of today. I denounce what they are doing with the party and especially with the country.

And that goes back to my comments about 1984. He was a Liberal statesman who understood the dangers of big massive government and anything that tried controlling people instead of actually helping them. You're defending the current BIG TOTAL GOVERNMENT IS BETTER mentality of current liberalism instead of DENOUNCING it for the same reasons you bash "Republicans" in office.

And I'm trying to help and hopefully make you see things in a different way. Not criticize. Well, mostly not criticize :P

[Sarvis]

Liberals are telling me that a man can marry a man.

No, Liberals are telling you to stay the fuck out of other peoples' business. Why can't a man marry a man? All they need is a priest willing to do so. Liberals aren't even trying to force priests to perform the ceremonies, just saying it should be allowed. They are offering people a choice while Conservatives are taking one away. One is giving you power to decide for yourself, while the other is telling you that you cannot do something. Liberals don't even say you have to "accept it." You can continue to hate gay people all you want, and continue to write articles and speeches about how they should not be married.

BUT, and this is the part you're missing, you should not be making the decisions for other people's personal lives or morality.

Fine. Liberals want you to use a specific light bulb. Get back to me when that's a moral question. :roll:

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

You haven't pointed at any legislation that controls behavior, except maybe hate speech but laws against inciting violence have been around far longer than this debate.

Show me where Liberals are telling me who I can marry, or passing a law telling me what I need to learn (NCLB was a Republican thing remember!)

BUT, and this is the part you're missing, you should not be making the decisions for other people's personal lives or morality.

Fine. Liberals want you to use a specific light bulb. Get back to me when that's a moral question. :roll:

I think I've pointed to enough situations of Liberals attempting to control behavior. Not all the original items had to do with morality, like the light bulbs. That was an example of making decisions for other people's personal lives. Your own words Sarvis. The same exactly thing can be applied to Cap and Trade and a host of other items previously mentioned. Not all are about morality, but about controlling people's lives. TRY to notice the hypocrisy please. That's all I hope to make you see.

[Sarvis]

I think I've pointed to enough situations of Liberals attempting to control behavior.

Laws attempt to control behavior. That's what laws ARE. We're talking about controlling your thoughts and morality, which is what Conservatives do. They won't allow swearing on TV, they won't allow you to choose the person you spend your life with, they want you to think you are evil if you're gay... a lesser person. They want you to believe you are a sinner if you drink. They want you to believe that if you don't agree with everything they say you hate America.

Liberal: You should use CFL light bulbs to save money and preserve our natural resources.
Conservative: If you listen to that guy you are a bad person and probably a traitor to your country!


Conservatives have made it party policy to paint liberals as enemies to the country, as unpatriotic because their opinions differ. You simply don't see that unity from liberals, because we actually think independently. When you see us making fun of conservatives it's more a reaction to the hatred they've been spewing for the last decade or so. Even then, we say you are wrong and stupid... we do NOT paint you as enemies of Liberty or traitors to the country. We just say you're brainwashed and unable to think for yourselves, just like the Republicans in power want.

So please, wake me when a Liberal hosts a book burning to keep ideas from getting to the public.

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

*sigh* Sarvis. Sorry chief.

[Ragorn]

Allowing people the freedom to choose is not "controlling behavior."

Although, I guess forcing conservatives to be tolerant of other peoples' viewpoints is "controlling behavior" in a way. If you want to be technical about it.

[Sarvis]

Allowing people the freedom to choose is not "controlling behavior."

Although, I guess forcing conservatives to be tolerant of other peoples' viewpoints is "controlling behavior" in a way. If you want to be technical about it.

Not even really forcing them to be tolerant. Just telling them they can't decide for others. Like I said, they can bitch about it and hate it all they want!

[Ragorn]

Allowing people the freedom to choose is not "controlling behavior."

Although, I guess forcing conservatives to be tolerant of other peoples' viewpoints is "controlling behavior" in a way. If you want to be technical about it.

Not even really forcing them to be tolerant. Just telling them they can't decide for others. Like I said, they can bitch about it and hate it all they want!

It's controlling behavior, in that they're not allowed to beat gays just for being gay. It's not controlling thought... you can hate gays all you want there, buddy. You just can't do anything about it.