Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

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teflor the ranger
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Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:27 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38955261/ns ... eal_estate

Clearly, government knows what is best and should replace any social structures already in place.
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:33 pm

How does buying something violate private property rights? The owner is choosing to sell. This isn't even eminent domain!
teflor the ranger
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:43 pm

Read the article carefully to find the issue. Not sure what more advice I can offer than that.
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:10 pm

If you were ever actually capable of having a thought or making a coherent argument you could just tell us what you think is the problem. You're not though, so back to ignoring you!
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby Corth » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:18 pm

Certain banks that were the lucky recipients of federal bailout funds and below market interest rates at the Fed's discount window are pressured by their benefactor (government) into selling foreclosed homes at a discount to organizations that are subsidized by said benefactor, and probably run by friends of Obama and his cronies.

That about sums it up?
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:41 pm

Corth wrote:Certain banks that were the lucky recipients of federal bailout funds and below market interest rates at the Fed's discount window are pressured by their benefactor (government) into selling foreclosed homes at a discount to organizations that are subsidized by said benefactor, and probably run by friends of Obama and his cronies.

That about sums it up?


I think you forgot about the Stonecutters manipulating everything in the background...
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby kiryan » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:43 pm

"This agreement helps us level the playing field to give communities a better chance to stabilize these neighborhoods," Housing and Urban Development Secretary Shaun Donovan said in a statement. Donovan said about 100,000 properties are likely to be sold through the program.

These are supposed to be smart people right... how the f*k do they figure its "leveling the playing field" to allow these organizations the ability to buy foreclosed property before it hits the market? Only people who don't beleive in a free market or that government should master plan everything (like in venuzela and cuba) could think this is a good idea.
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:48 pm

kiryan wrote: Only people who don't beleive in a free market


I wonder if it would be easier for you to show me proof of an existing free market, or proof that God exists?
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby kiryan » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:06 pm

which direction does this move us. more towards a free market for further away?

simple fact is that these people were not willing or able to pay the market value of the properities but want to buy them anyways so the government used its coervice power to force them to sell the properties for less which hurts their private business and directly impacts their shareholders.

How would you like the reverse? Big fund private partiy speculators only get to look and bid on these properties before being offered to the public?

or how would you like it if republican dominated organizations bought these properties, "did good with them" whatever that means, then flipped them for massive profits?

This is government choosing the winners and losers. This reduces competition.
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:42 pm

kiryan wrote:which direction does this move us. more towards a free market for further away?


Neither.

How would you like the reverse? Big fund private partiy speculators only get to look and bid on these properties before being offered to the public?


Happens all the time. Who cares?
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby kiryan » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:45 am

I do, both situations are ridiculous. The proper way to value something is put it up for sale and let anyone who wants to buy it put in an offer.
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:07 pm

The more the plans fail, the more the planners plan.
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby Pril » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:52 pm

kiryan wrote:which direction does this move us. more towards a free market for further away?

simple fact is that these people were not willing or able to pay the market value of the properities but want to buy them anyways so the government used its coervice power to force them to sell the properties for less which hurts their private business and directly impacts their shareholders.

How would you like the reverse? Big fund private partiy speculators only get to look and bid on these properties before being offered to the public?

or how would you like it if republican dominated organizations bought these properties, "did good with them" whatever that means, then flipped them for massive profits?

This is government choosing the winners and losers. This reduces competition.


I actually had a pretty interesting discussion about this with my brother who pointed out a few interesting facets.

So first of all it doesn't say in the article that the banks are being coerced into doing this, which leads me to believe that they get something out of the deal. I started digging around and this is what I found more or less using http://www.nga.org/Files/pdf/0805FORECL ... RTGAGE.PDF as my push off point:

1) Legal costs for handelign the foreclosure still have to be paid.
2) Administrative fees. Still need to be paid to courts.

However that's only 60% of the cost. The other 40% of the cost are:

Costs of restoring the property to saleable condition.
Real estate commissions.

If the government/special interest groups are buying the properties to tear them down or to renovate them "local officials could benefit from acquiring these properties and renovating them or using the land for redevelopment projects" then the bank doesn't have to pay to restore the property.

Also if the bank offers it directly to these groups then there are no real estate commissions to be paid.

I think the banks will end up winning out on this deal even if they sell the house for less.

Mike
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby Corth » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:57 pm

Bullshit. They are selling property in the same condition as they would otherwise - for less money. The only difference is they are selling it to a group that is backed by the government. The quid pro quo is these banks continue to get all sorts of government subsidized goodies like below rate money at the discount window (basically free cash - they can use it to buy safe higher yielding instruments) and favorable repayment terms on bailout money. That and the government won't go after them, prosecute their CEO's etc. Both the carrot and the stick are compelling them to sell these properties for less money than the market would bare.
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:02 pm

They're definitely being coerced into doing this. Of course the article doesn't mention it - the media has been supportive of every effort of this administration to further socialize the nation by bringing more and more under the central control of the government.

Even if the banks go along with the coercion doesn't make it any less coercion, furthermore, it's the public that is being further coerced into paying for this program, whether they're taking it out of your taxes now, or simply borrowing money you and your children will have to pay up later.

The banks are going to make money either way. That's what they do. You and I will have no choice to but to pay for it, should the government become involved, instead of allowing those who chose to do it pay for it.
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby kiryan » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:32 pm

Pril, you have an oil rig blow up in say the gulf of mexico. Would you voluntarily sell your assets to put 20 billion dollars into an escrow fund from which a government appointed organization will disburse money to claimants for absolutely nothing in return?

Who would be so stupid as to do such a thing without being forced too or being force too? Right, they were forced to.
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby Pril » Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:01 pm

kiryan wrote:Pril, you have an oil rig blow up in say the gulf of mexico. Would you voluntarily sell your assets to put 20 billion dollars into an escrow fund from which a government appointed organization will disburse money to claimants for absolutely nothing in return?

Who would be so stupid as to do such a thing without being forced too or being force too? Right, they were forced to.


Lets say they were forced, the real question is are they still making more money then they do when they sell to private citizens who pay more?

I think that's the real question. Is this a good business decision for them (honestly I'm not sure if it is or isn't). If its not and they are just losing money then yeah this is REALLY bad. If this is a good business decision be it because they are getting kick backs in the form of low to no interest loans etc or if they can avoid paying the 40% of the cost to actually sell the foreclosed property then the reality of it is while this is a CRAPPY thing for the government to do, from the bank standpoint I don't think this really is a crushing of capitalism.

Mike
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:20 pm

Free Oil Well

Love,

BP

P.S. As-Is, no warranties implied, no takesies backsies.
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby Corth » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:19 pm

Of course they are taking in less money on the sale of this real estate. The whole reason for this 'voluntary' program is that the government backed organizations were unable to compete with the speculators. They were bringing less money to the table than the speculators - simple as that. If they were able to bring as much or more money then there would be absolutely no need for this program. As a matter of sheer logic the participating banks are going to see less revenue from these RE sales.

That being said, It's a great business decision Pril. They get to keep the government goodies and they don't face a government witch hunt.
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby kiryan » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:42 pm

Pril you are exactly right and that is the problem.

It was a good business decision to willingly surrender 20 billion dollars or they wouldn't have done it.

WTF?

You know in other countries, when the government makes ridiculous demands of private companies in order to do business we call this corruption and graft. In America we apparently call it hope and change.

Do you know why the USA has been such a good place to do business? Because of its stable business/legal/regulatory environment. You don't have to worry about Chavez demanding you pay your workers 50% more or threatening to nationalize your assets if you don't reduce your prices. You don't have to worry about China throwing your CEO in jail or competing against companies that don't have to obey pollution laws or Russian KGB trumping up charges and taking a billion dollars out of your bank account. In America everyone used to be equal under the law whether black or brown or an Irish citizen.
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Re: Administration Coercion Dilutes Private Property Rights

Postby Corth » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:28 am

Great post Kiryan.

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