transgender bathroom use

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kiryan
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transgender bathroom use

Postby kiryan » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:18 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/22/pa ... irls-room/

The Maine Human Rights Commission has ruled that a middle school discriminated against a sixth grader by not letting the male-to-female transgender student use the girls' bathroom.

Seriously? You liberals support this? A boy, who gender identifies as a girl or whatever, is fundamentally still a boy. A gender neutral bathroom was the most apporpriate accomodation if ANY was necessary.

Why are the principals of generality imposed on everyone else, but we can go to great lengths to right injustices exceptions for anyone gay bisexual transgender woman black hispanic etc?
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Ragorn » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:51 pm

Yes, we do. It's part of Obama's Redistribution of Gender plan to socialize American rest rooms.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Pril » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:10 pm

Ragorn wrote:Yes, we do. It's part of Obama's Redistribution of Gender plan to socialize American rest rooms.
.

Rags,

Guys don't socialize in American restrooms. We do our thing and leave.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Corth » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:26 pm

What you never played pee pee tag?
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:32 pm

kiryan wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/22/panel-school-discriminated-transgender-th-grader-letting-student-use-girls-room/

The Maine Human Rights Commission has ruled that a middle school discriminated against a sixth grader by not letting the male-to-female transgender student use the girls' bathroom.

Seriously? You liberals support this? A boy, who gender identifies as a girl or whatever, is fundamentally still a boy. A gender neutral bathroom was the most apporpriate accomodation if ANY was necessary.

Why are the principals of generality imposed on everyone else, but we can go to great lengths to right injustices exceptions for anyone gay bisexual transgender woman black hispanic etc?


I want to understand your reasoning. Why should a boy not be allowed into a girl's restroom?
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Pril » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:43 pm

Because it is a GIRLS restroom and he is a BOY.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Turxx » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:08 am

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/22/panel-school-discriminated-transgender-th-grader-letting-student-use-girls-room/

The Maine Human Rights Commission has ruled that a middle school discriminated against a sixth grader by not letting the male-to-female transgender student use the girls' bathroom.

Seriously? You liberals support this? A boy, who gender identifies as a girl or whatever, is fundamentally still a boy. A gender neutral bathroom was the most apporpriate accomodation if ANY was necessary.

Why are the principals of generality imposed on everyone else, but we can go to great lengths to right injustices exceptions for anyone gay bisexual transgender woman black hispanic etc?


I want to understand your reasoning. Why should a boy not be allowed into a girl's restroom?

seriously?? and then where does it stop? why have girls or boys rooms? i mean the reason is clear enough for me, you start letting boys and girls in the same restroom room you have to stop letting them go unsupervised....
some things are too ridiculous for words, penis equals boy, vagina equals girl, pretty simple
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby kiryan » Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:35 am

Clearly you two must be ignorant, degenerate, religious republicans. Enlightened liberals know that gender identity has nothing to do with a dick hanging between your legs and has to do with whats in your fucked up mind.

No wonder Europe is so much better, we can't even tell the difference between a boy and a girl.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Kindi » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:32 pm

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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Ragorn » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:55 pm

kiryan wrote:Clearly you two must be ignorant, degenerate, religious republicans. Enlightened liberals know that gender identity has nothing to do with a dick hanging between your legs and has to do with whats in your fucked up mind.

No wonder Europe is so much better, we can't even tell the difference between a boy and a girl.

Image

I blame THE ROCK MUSIC.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Turxx » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:29 pm

im neither religious, republican nor do i think ignorant, i do believe however in clear lines and black and white
not only do i think boys and girls rooms are correct and proper, i also think our definition of boys and girls is correct and proper
i also believe that this transgender 6th graders parents should loose the kid and whatever doctor thought it was ok to perform such a radical procedure on a 6th grader should at the very least loose their medical license
you turn 18 and after qualified therapy still feel you need to do such a thing, then, by all means, you have a right to do as you like
anything less is immoral
same reason you shouldnt get a tattoo when youre drunk or high, only on a much grander scale
this is a life long consequence, were supposed to protect our children from these, not encourage or enable
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Llaaldara » Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:27 pm

kiryan wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/22/panel-school-discriminated-transgender-th-grader-letting-student-use-girls-room/

The Maine Human Rights Commission has ruled that a middle school discriminated against a sixth grader by not letting the male-to-female transgender student use the girls' bathroom.

Seriously? You liberals support this? A boy, who gender identifies as a girl or whatever, is fundamentally still a boy. A gender neutral bathroom was the most apporpriate accomodation if ANY was necessary.

Why are the principals of generality imposed on everyone else, but we can go to great lengths to right injustices exceptions for anyone gay bisexual transgender woman black hispanic etc?


Much like your source often does on broadcast, you've missed the more important points to hustle your political view by taking pot shots at the opposing party. Congrats.

The important point to notice, is this school had provided the individual in question their own private bathroom, but as a result was publicly harassed for it by fellow students. It is therefor logical to asses this individual was trying to avoid harassment by trying to blend in with society as best they could by choosing a bathroom they identified with on a personal level. If they have identified themselves publicly (which is brave as hell first of all, and then times that by ten in old-fashioned MAINE of all goddam states - I have family that live there and go there regularly, and it is old school mentality), then they are most likely publicly presenting themselves as the gender they are ultimately trying to be. That means, he's probably running around looking like a girl as much as possible in public.

Should someone you see looking like a girl go into a men's bathroom? Consider THAT for a second. What's easier to do and attract less attention? Transgendered people don't want attention, they want to blend in. In fact, try this Kiryan, dress up in complete passable drag and go out to a public place. When you have to go to the bathroom, which do you honestly think would cause less fuss and attract less attention to yourself? Do you think it's going to be the guys? Or the girls?

I'll give you the answer. The girls will cause less fuss. In fact they know you're a guy in drag the second they see you. Guys won't always catch it, so they'll wonder why a girl is in their bathroom. Where as when you go walking into the girls bathroom, they'll be oblivious to the whole thing. It'll be a difference between 50% vs 100% noticeability.

Essentially, you're upset at someone who has being harassed by straight people for being different (or not-straight), and tried to conform and fit in to prevent said abuse, but found they couldn't escape it. When in fact you should be upset at the straight people who caused this problem to develop in the first place via intolerance for someone being different, not the victim trying to escape the situation.

Now. Is this person a boy or a girl? This person has been identified as being 'transgendered'. This means they are in the process of going from one to the other, or are simply having problems trying to figure out which they are. Uncertainty of self gender is perhaps the most depressing feeling one can have, and explains why the rate of suicide is high among their population. These people are in a process of change or uncertainty. If they are sure of themselves, then if not already, in a year or two they will most likely be undergoing hormone therapy. It is essential to do so before the onset of puberty, to allow a more natural evolution of the change in the body. This means they'd require substantially less cosmetic surgery and the transition would be more 'natural'. Hormones working with hormones. Transgendered people who look to do a gender/sex change later in life, have to experience a 2nd puberty, which is more brutal and harsh on their bodies. This explains why many individuals who receive sex change operations late in life suffer from many health and organ problems. Hormones working against hormones be the case.

The concept of "Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina" doesn't apply to people in transition. To help you understand this point. Consider yourself now, as you are. Then consider waking up one day and seeing your penis is now a vagina and your body has become slightly androgynous . You're still you inside. You still think like a man and have the emotions of a man, but for some reason you feel completely out of place in your own body.

Really think about that. Being uncomfortable in your own skin, even the way your body moves when you walk. Can you even imagine that feeling on a daily bases, for days, weeks, months, and years? The complete and utter inability to relate to anyone, save those in your situation. Which, you'd be lucky to know any in RL because of the rarity of this condition. Now consider in the midst of all this self confusion, being publicly harassed and humiliated on a daily bases for not being like everyone else. They start taunting to you can calling you names like "Kiryan the lesbo" and "military boygirl" and such because you identify with being a man inside, and as such like girls, but your body is technically that of a woman. You just want to be a man, but everyone keeps telling you how you're a girl, and telling you how stupid can you be the answer is right between your legs dummy.

These people are living with special circumstances which is why they deserve special circumstances. Duh?
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Dalar » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:55 am

There's an episode of SVU that covered this topic in some sense. Males were harsh as fuck to the transgender.

1. Girls probably don't give a shit about male->female.
2. Guys love to make fun of male->female and female->male alike. I know the female->male transgender at work was the butt of many jokes when he started coming into the boys bathroom.

For the transgender of male->female, the results of bathrooms are:
Male = Get made fun of until he is hella depressed
Female = Probably some dumb hot chicks making fun of the transgender but not as bad as the male.

Mitigating the ridicule should have been the primary focus of the school district as well as educating what transgender is in today's society. Forcing old values on our children is a stupid way to teach them. Might as well start telling people the Earth is flat or some stupid shit too.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Turxx » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:23 am

i see a lot going into consideration for how this person felt
kids are not capable of this
and the parents did a terrible thing by putting the child in such a high profile spot
if you think its right to do something so radical to a child, (which i do not, 6th graders are not yet capable of grasping the full scope of the consequence) then homeschool
they apparently did as a parent what they thought was best and then threw the child to the wolves
it makes me sick
where was that consideration?
teach your children to love themselves, not that they are somehow defective
if they grow into an adult and then choose to do something so radical as change their sex, embrace and bless that choice
the school is not at fault here, they have many children to think about, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and in this case, one
how uncomfortable it made this one student to have their own rest room, seriously? what about how uncomfortable it would have likely made all the other students had they not?
the real blame here lies in the parents, what they did and then failed to do in regards to this child
to expect the people around you to sacrifice their comfort or state of mind or to make unreasonable accommodations for you is selfish and petty
and as much as we all believe in equal rights, thats what was being asked here
right or wrong you can not reasonably hope to be well received if you try and bulldoze yourself, your views or your morality into the status quo
Last edited by Turxx on Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Corth » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:26 am

If public school is anything at all the way I remember it then it has to be an impossible situation for a transgender. I know it goes against the conventional wisdom of 'inclusion' in public schools, but if my kid had that condition I would send him/her to a school just for transgender children.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:03 am

Turxx has it right, in my opinion. What you do here is have DCF take the kid away so they he can be raised by actual parents.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:51 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Turxx has it right, in my opinion. What you do here is have DCF take the kid away so they he can be raised by actual parents.


Yes, the absolute best thing is for a kid to be bounced around in foster homes.

Kiryan, nothing you said sounded like an acual reason.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby kiryan » Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:43 pm

I'll give you some credit for the will harassed more dressed as a girl going into a boys bathroom. However, they are going to be treated differently for the rest of their life. Thats just what happens when you are different whether its sexually, a midget, armless or wear a burqa in the middle of summer.

Corth has the right idea, treat an exception like an exception. This kid is not normal statistically. To expect the 99.9% of us who are not transgender to accomodate this exception is stupid. This should probably be handled by special education department and educate this kid differently. In many situations, autistic kids are shipped to special schools at the costs of hundreds of thousands of public dollars because that is the most "free and appropriate" education. Appropriate education for this transgender kid may not be in a traditional public school.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Kindi » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:06 pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/au ... ma-simpson

omg what is it?! in a black and white world: an abomination!
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:22 pm

""It's obviously a human rights issue but human rights affect everyone in the race, not just one person," Simpson told the Telegraph. "The rest of the field just gets ignored. No way is it a personal issue but it's a debate about what is right and fair for everyone."


Sarvis wrote:
Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Turxx has it right, in my opinion. What you do here is have DCF take the kid away so they he can be raised by actual parents.


Yes, the absolute best thing is for a kid to be bounced around in foster homes.


In this case, I think he'll be doing much better in any other home.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:39 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:""It's obviously a human rights issue but human rights affect everyone in the race, not just one person," Simpson told the Telegraph. "The rest of the field just gets ignored. No way is it a personal issue but it's a debate about what is right and fair for everyone."


Sarvis wrote:
Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Turxx has it right, in my opinion. What you do here is have DCF take the kid away so they he can be raised by actual parents.


Yes, the absolute best thing is for a kid to be bounced around in foster homes.


In this case, I think he'll be doing much better in any other home.


So because their morals are different from yours, they are automatically bad parents? I thought you were in favor of Freedom... shouldn't people be able to raise their kids how they want? Should we take this kid away and put him with some upstanding Christian that'd beat the gay out of him?
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:49 pm

Should gender be a matter of self-selection? Or grounded in biological fact?
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:01 am

Sarvis wrote:So because their morals are different from yours, they are automatically bad parents? I thought you were in favor of Freedom... shouldn't people be able to raise their kids how they want? Should we take this kid away and put him with some upstanding Christian that'd beat the gay out of him?


This has nothing to do with morals, and they ARE bad parents. This is the same as the kid being raised by parents who encourage a 10 year old into incest.

Sarvis wrote:shouldn't people be able to raise their kids how they want?


There are clear, LEGAL exceptions to that. And I agree with them.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:17 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:So because their morals are different from yours, they are automatically bad parents? I thought you were in favor of Freedom... shouldn't people be able to raise their kids how they want? Should we take this kid away and put him with some upstanding Christian that'd beat the gay out of him?


This has nothing to do with morals, and they ARE bad parents. This is the same as the kid being raised by parents who encourage a 10 year old into incest.

Sarvis wrote:shouldn't people be able to raise their kids how they want?


There are clear, LEGAL exceptions to that. And I agree with them.



You're right. A good parent also forces their kids to write with their right hand, because left handed people are evil!
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:41 am

Sarvis wrote:You're right.


Thanks! We can finally conclude this thread on a good note.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:40 am

Cheez and Beer for all!
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Dalar » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:05 am

Anyone who posts after this post loves men.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby dem » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:07 am

Ofcourse the parents are at fault for letting their minor have a transgender operation at such an early age. That has nothing to do with the school. The school is at fault for not dealing with the harassements towards that person. The purpose of the school is to educate people, regardless of sexual orientation, gender, religion etc. The school probably doesnt start discussing sexuality, sexual identity, gender etc at an early enough age. This shouldn't have to be a problem year 2010.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:07 pm

dem wrote:Ofcourse the parents are at fault for letting their minor have a transgender operation at such an early age.



No surgery was mentioned in the article... Transgender applies to people who just think they are another sex, not just to people who have actually had gender reassignment surgery.

Adriorn: Please tell me you actually got my point?
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Turxx » Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:49 pm

No surgery was mentioned in the article... Transgender applies to people who just think they are another sex, not just to people who have actually had gender reassignment surgery.

WOW! Now theres a can of worms, curious or devious little boys can say, "I _feel_ like a girl, so im going to use the girls bathroom and you cant stop me!"
heh
you start letting boys and girls use the same bathroom, you have to stop letting them go unsupervised
boys are boys and girls are girls, this child was provided with a private restroom and then was picked on for having it
sucks
but does anyone really believe that that was the only reason or just the handy most outstanding one? there would have been something else
as a parent if i found out my daughters school let boys in the girls room because they "felt more comfortable" id have serious issue
to make one person feel comfortable you sacrifice the comfort of, i would think, most all of the girls and their parents and likely most of the school staff and probably most of the boys too
seems to me the school did the only thing they thought was right on the bathroom front
it was the other fronts that lacked attention
you want to be treated like everyone else, then act like everyone else
you want to be yourself, then stand up and own it
i have always been a black sheep
i went to a very small school, i caught a lot of shit over the way i dressed, the music i liked, pretty much everything that made me me.
but i owned it, and there were always those that took issue, but come to senior year pretty much everyone accepted and respected
if you want to wear a dress, wear a dress, but if youre going to choose to stand out like that, expect people to notice, and know most of the attention isnt going to be possitive
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby dem » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:21 pm

Its the parents responsibility and duty to teach their kids that people are people regardless of what they look like. If enough parents fails at this we could be facing another nazi era or similar purging. This is actually happening in some parts of the world today but if we want to continue to call ourselves civilized its our duty as human beeings to educate our kids how wrong this is. Sadly enough a racist party got voted into the swedish government this years election. It just shows how important it is to talk to the kids about equal values.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:04 am

Just saw this on Fark. So what's your stance on transgender prom kings?

http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/local/mu ... der-senior
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby dem » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:11 am

I cant relate to this since we dont have this tradition in sweden or anything like it so I dont know how important it can be to someone. Do you get somekind of scholarship benefits or anything?. But my first reaction to this is why shouldnt HE be king? He feels like a guy and has the support of the majority of the people.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby kiryan » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:59 pm

I'm on the fence on the prom king thing. The problem here is that transgender people are different and statistically insigifnicant no matter what you want to say. As such, they should be prepared to face certain hardships and yes even discrimination. I'm tired of hearing that we have to go overboard to ensure someone who is very different is not treated slightly differently.

The danger of a return to nazi like cultures is significant, however I disagree that we should treat everyone equally. We should treat everyone appropriately for the reality of the situation. I'm not a bad person for being very aware that there is a transgender male in the restroom with me. They are not the same and that is an appropriate logical feeling. I'm not a bad person for being very aware when theres a 300 pound biker in the bathroom with me or a homo sleeping in the bunk next to me. I am a bad person if I say the homo is an evil person and can't be trusted with a cashier job because they might steal.

Transgender can be a diagnosis, gender reassignment surgery is one of many procedures to treat a transgender diagnosis.

As for the prom king thing... I can go either way. On one hand, I think the transgender person should recognize they are different and respectfully bow out. It doesn't mean they are less of a person, it just means their situation is unique. On the other hand, prom king and queens are an expression of school spirit and class interconnectedness, if they want a transgender for a king it would be a powerful statement of acceptance. On the third hand, if there are very vocal very agitated groups of people against having a girl for prom king, its in the administration's best interests to reduce distraction by infringing upon one transgender kid's supposed rights. We squash people's rights all the time in the interest of public good, why is this so terrible?
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:51 pm

kiryan wrote: I disagree that we should treat everyone equally.


So the Declaration of Independence really doesn't mean anything to you, then. Explains a lot.

We should treat everyone appropriately for the reality of the situation.


The reality of the situation is that it doesn't matter if a person is gay or transgender in the bathroom with you. Frankly, a transgender person going into the bathroom of their psychological sex should be LESS bothersome than a gay person of the same sex.

After all, the transgender person in your bathroom probably doesn't find you attractive.

As for the prom king thing... I can go either way.


No wonder you're so worried about who's in the bathroom with you. ;)

On one hand, I think the transgender person should recognize they are different and respectfully bow out. It doesn't mean they are less of a person, it just means their situation is unique. On the other hand, prom king and queens are an expression of school spirit and class interconnectedness, if they want a transgender for a king it would be a powerful statement of acceptance. On the third hand, if there are very vocal very agitated groups of people against having a girl for prom king, its in the administration's best interests to reduce distraction by infringing upon one transgender kid's supposed rights. We squash people's rights all the time in the interest of public good, why is this so terrible?



Funny how when it comes to a moral issue you're all in favor of crushing rights, but when it's anything a democrat says it's all "they're crushing our freedoms!"
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby kiryan » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:21 pm

endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights. In a spiritual context we are all of equal value to the creator. That has nothing to do with equality here on earth. In a practical reality we each have a different value based on who we are, how we were born, where we were born and the choices we made. A nomadic tribesman in Africa is not equal to Bill Gates in value in many metrics.

Should be less bothersome by whose standards? your experts? Statistical evidence demostrates that human nature tends to look for homogenity. Its manifest in all facets of our culture.

I only pitch.

Shrug I vasiliate between arguing strict ideals and engaging in the same style of hipocratic rhetoric that the opposition does. If Demcorats would stop crushing my freedoms, I'd be less inclined to require the same standard for your liberal causes, but when its freedom and rights for gay marriage and its polygamy is evil, you really don't have any ground to stand on. Or Islamic activies and field trips are cultural and Christian ones are indoctrination and religious.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:29 pm

kiryan wrote:endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights.


Rights that only apply to people who are not gay, apparently.

A nomadic tribesman in Africa is not equal to Bill Gates in value in many metrics.


Tell that to his family, to his friends and the tribe he supports. Your metrics are worthless, a measure we give ourselves to FEEL like we are better than others when in reality we are not. The Founding Fathers you love to quote so often knew this. The Bible you say you live by knew this.

You have yet to learn what equality means.

Should be less bothersome by whose standards? your experts? Statistical evidence demostrates that human nature tends to look for homogenity. Its manifest in all facets of our culture.


Human nature tends to do a LOT of things you disapprove of.

Shrug I vasiliate between arguing strict ideals and engaging in the same style of hipocratic rhetoric that the opposition does. If Demcorats would stop crushing my freedoms, I'd be less inclined to require the same standard for your liberal causes, but when its freedom and rights for gay marriage and its polygamy is evil, you really don't have any ground to stand on. Or Islamic activies and field trips are cultural and Christian ones are indoctrination and religious.


I have no idea what you're rambling about at this point. You're butthurt about losing the election or something?
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby kiryan » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:24 pm

lol boy you're getting pretty feisty over this. Try to calm down and exercise the brain power some. Words mean different things in different contexts.

Equality when you're talking income is different than equality when you're talking intrinsic worth or when a 5'2 firefighter shows up and has to drag your 200 lbs of fat ass to safety. If my ass was in a fire, I'd want the equality that is 6'5 280 pounds

The constitution does not say all people are equal in terms of income. It says people are created equal. What you do after being created has an impact on various measures of equality.

you are an idiot if you think all people are equal in every metric.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:06 am

kiryan wrote:lol boy you're getting pretty feisty over this. Try to calm down and exercise the brain power some. Words mean different things in different contexts.

Equality when you're talking income is different than equality when you're talking intrinsic worth or when a 5'2 firefighter shows up and has to drag your 200 lbs of fat ass to safety. If my ass was in a fire, I'd want the equality that is 6'5 280 pounds

The constitution does not say all people are equal in terms of income. It says people are created equal. What you do after being created has an impact on various measures of equality.

you are an idiot if you think all people are equal in every metric.


You are an idiot if you think metrics matter more than the people themselves. Again you missed the point entirely.
kiryan
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby kiryan » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:33 am

so are you for polygamy? bestiality? child brides? nambla?

where is your equality now?
Pril
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Pril » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:04 pm

kiryan wrote:so are you for polygamy? bestiality? child brides? nambla?

where is your equality now?



I'm all for marrying multiple lambs.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:41 pm

Sarvis wrote:You are an idiot if you think metrics matter more than the people themselves. Again you missed the point entirely.

Lol. Where the hell does he think human metrics come from?
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:31 pm

kiryan wrote:so are you for polygamy? bestiality? child brides? nambla?

where is your equality now?


What does that have to do with anything?
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Turxx » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:50 pm

it has to do with a lot, hes going pretty far left field but then so are you, if all people are equal, and equal rights, youre saying if someone thinks its right and you think its wrong, what you think is ultimately moot
i say your rights cease when they infringe on mine and liberty before security
but some things are just plain common decency and common sense, like why minor children of different sex shouldnt use the same rest room at the same time unattended
transgender i guess maybe becomes a third sex, idk
but if and till something like that might be determined penis equals boy and vagina equals girl, its a matter of mechanics, one fits into the other and children are inherently curious
so youre uncomfortable in a public restroom or locker room, you arent the first, you wont be the last
but why should 1000 people be made uncomfortable so one can act like they arent different or somehow do not notice the tension they create? or even 10, or even 2? it then becomes a matter of democracy
all men were created equal, it says nothing about remain equal, live equal or die equals, slavery is still legal under the constitution
two bold examples are inmates and enlisted men
its not a term we like, but under the constitution they are property
me, im for gay marriage, tho i dont think marriage is an appropriate term as it is largely based in religion and the bible is clear enough
you want to go down to the court house or where ever and declare domestic union or partnership, more power to you
polygamy? ...doesnt bother me either, so long as everyone involved is ok with it why shouldnt i be?
beastiality? ...like i read in a western once, if his horse dont care why should i?
child brides? i dont think so, as an educated and civilized society we know children are not capable of grasping the concepts or reality of a thing like that
i dont walk through families or groups in public, thats rude because its me infringing on their comfort and space
i dont make people walk around me when its less work for me to move
and i expect people to do the same for me
my comfort is not more important then yours, and when yours is established, its less so and vice versa
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:31 pm

Turxx wrote:it has to do with a lot, hes going pretty far left field but then so are you, if all people are equal, and equal rights, youre saying if someone thinks its right and you think its wrong, what you think is ultimately moot


No. There is no basis for judgement of right and wrong in the statement "All men are created equal."

i say your rights cease when they infringe on mine and liberty before security


But the transgender person shouldn't have the liberty to choose the bathroom that makes sense to him/her?

but some things are just plain common decency and common sense, like why minor children of different sex shouldnt use the same rest room at the same time unattended


Explain why.

Common sense is a pretty big umbrella, which frequently means "I don't have any logical reason for this, but I feel like it should be true so I'll just call it "common sense."


but if and till something like that might be determined penis equals boy and vagina equals girl, its a matter of mechanics, one fits into the other and children are inherently curious


Right. Children should never, ever be left alone together anywhere or they might start having sex when they are 4. :roll:

Especially one when of them thinks he is a girl, and isn't particularly interested in the physically opposite sex?

so youre uncomfortable in a public restroom or locker room, you arent the first, you wont be the last
but why should 1000 people be made uncomfortable so one can act like they arent different or somehow do not notice the tension they create? or even 10, or even 2? it then becomes a matter of democracy
all men were created equal, it says nothing about remain equal, live equal or die equals, slavery is still legal under the constitution


Funny how your reasoning led to slavery being acceptable. Perhaps this indicates a flaw in your logic?

Men are created equal, and we should strive to maintain that equality.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Turxx » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:49 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Turxx wrote:it has to do with a lot, hes going pretty far left field but then so are you, if all people are equal, and equal rights, youre saying if someone thinks its right and you think its wrong, what you think is ultimately moot


No. There is no basis for judgement of right and wrong in the statement "All men are created equal."

_created_ being the operative word there, what you make of yourself from there is on you

i say your rights cease when they infringe on mine and liberty before security


But the transgender person shouldn't have the liberty to choose the bathroom that makes sense to him/her?
person? sure, but be ready for people to take offense, child, absolutely not

but some things are just plain common decency and common sense, like why minor children of different sex shouldnt use the same rest room at the same time unattended


Explain why.

i did, its a matter of mechanics and a childs innate curiosity

Common sense is a pretty big umbrella, which frequently means "I don't have any logical reason for this, but I feel like it should be true so I'll just call it "common sense."


but if and till something like that might be determined penis equals boy and vagina equals girl, its a matter of mechanics, one fits into the other and children are inherently curious


Right. Children should never, ever be left alone together anywhere or they might start having sex when they are 4. :roll:

exactly, and if you honestly think otherwise youre naive or stupid, and were not talking about 4 year olds, were talking about 6th graders, if its ok at 4 then when does it cease to be ok, do think of the big picture or simply believe rose colored glasses are the key to a happy life?

Especially one when of them thinks he is a girl, and isn't particularly interested in the physically opposite sex?

there has to be a line somewhere, a clear line, either we all use the same restroom or we all use the restroom wed prefer to use, you act like theres some middle ground here, do you think of consequences?

so youre uncomfortable in a public restroom or locker room, you arent the first, you wont be the last
but why should 1000 people be made uncomfortable so one can act like they arent different or somehow do not notice the tension they create? or even 10, or even 2? it then becomes a matter of democracy
all men were created equal, it says nothing about remain equal, live equal or die equals, slavery is still legal under the constitution


Funny how your reasoning led to slavery being acceptable. Perhaps this indicates a flaw in your logic?

did i say anything about acceptable? i said legal and as far as the whole of civilized society goes, in the contexts i mentioned, right and proper, maybe you should just read the constitution, bill of rights, declaration of independence and also consider the social climate of the time
those early americans stood up and said enough is enough, recognize or fight
the day you feel so strongly about confused children peeing where ever they like that youre willing to die, then talk about how right it is

Men are created equal, and we should strive to maintain that equality.


we may have been created equal, but i sure as hell strive to be more, so did our forefathers
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:02 pm

Turxx wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Turxx wrote:it has to do with a lot, hes going pretty far left field but then so are you, if all people are equal, and equal rights, youre saying if someone thinks its right and you think its wrong, what you think is ultimately moot


No. There is no basis for judgement of right and wrong in the statement "All men are created equal."

_created_ being the operative word there, what you make of yourself from there is on you

i say your rights cease when they infringe on mine and liberty before security


But the transgender person shouldn't have the liberty to choose the bathroom that makes sense to him/her?
person? sure, but be ready for people to take offense, child, absolutely not

but some things are just plain common decency and common sense, like why minor children of different sex shouldnt use the same rest room at the same time unattended


Explain why.

i did, its a matter of mechanics and a childs innate curiosity

Common sense is a pretty big umbrella, which frequently means "I don't have any logical reason for this, but I feel like it should be true so I'll just call it "common sense."


but if and till something like that might be determined penis equals boy and vagina equals girl, its a matter of mechanics, one fits into the other and children are inherently curious


Right. Children should never, ever be left alone together anywhere or they might start having sex when they are 4. :roll:

exactly, and if you honestly think otherwise youre naive or stupid, and were not talking about 4 year olds, were talking about 6th graders, if its ok at 4 then when does it cease to be ok, do think of the big picture or simply believe rose colored glasses are the key to a happy life?

Especially one when of them thinks he is a girl, and isn't particularly interested in the physically opposite sex?

there has to be a line somewhere, a clear line, either we all use the same restroom or we all use the restroom wed prefer to use, you act like theres some middle ground here, do you think of consequences?

so youre uncomfortable in a public restroom or locker room, you arent the first, you wont be the last
but why should 1000 people be made uncomfortable so one can act like they arent different or somehow do not notice the tension they create? or even 10, or even 2? it then becomes a matter of democracy
all men were created equal, it says nothing about remain equal, live equal or die equals, slavery is still legal under the constitution


Funny how your reasoning led to slavery being acceptable. Perhaps this indicates a flaw in your logic?

did i say anything about acceptable? i said legal and as far as the whole of civilized society goes, in the contexts i mentioned, right and proper, maybe you should just read the constitution, bill of rights, declaration of independence and also consider the social climate of the time
those early americans stood up and said enough is enough, recognize or fight
the day you feel so strongly about confused children peeing where ever they like that youre willing to die, then talk about how right it is

Men are created equal, and we should strive to maintain that equality.


we may have been created equal, but i sure as hell strive to be more, so did our forefathers



For all your striving, you're still just an "ugly bag of mostly water." Any superiority you feel to others is purely an illusion.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:18 pm

Sarvis:

Remember, there's a big difference between "All men are equal" and "All men are created equal". There's a big social and legal difference between those two terms/definitions. I like to think the Founding Fathers in their Neoclassic ways tended to be extremely specific with their choice of words.

The doctor practicing medicine for free in some poor African country and the rapist in Vermont were both created equally by God, and they might have the same legal rights, but they sure as hell aren't equal. The Bible is pretty specific about that distinction too. I'm supposed to treat both the same way, and try to be extra-loving towards my "enemies". The atheist family who is trying their best to educate their children well, and the two crazies who brought up transgenderism to their fucking 6TH GRADER are NOT equal. But, they do both get the same treatment under the blind eye of the law, as will the child.

I'll restate what I said earlier. Take the kid and put him/her under the care of actual parents, atheist or Catholic. He'll turn out much better than under these two dysfunctional loons.
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:43 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Sarvis:

Remember, there's a big difference between "All men are equal" and "All men are created equal". There's a big social and legal difference between those two terms/definitions. I like to think the Founding Fathers in their Neoclassic ways tended to be extremely specific with their choice of words.

The doctor practicing medicine for free in some poor African country and the rapist in Vermont were both created equally by God, and they might have the same legal rights, but they sure as hell aren't equal. The Bible is pretty specific about that distinction too. I'm supposed to treat both the same way, and try to be extra-loving towards my "enemies". The atheist family who is trying their best to educate their children well, and the two crazies who brought up transgenderism to their fucking 6TH GRADER are NOT equal. But, they do both get the same treatment under the blind eye of the law, as will the child.

I'll restate what I said earlier. Take the kid and put him/her under the care of actual parents, atheist or Catholic. He'll turn out much better than under these two dysfunctional loons.


Where in the article does it say the parents introduced this concept to the kid?
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Re: transgender bathroom use

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:52 pm

Sarvis wrote:For all your striving, you're still just an "ugly bag of mostly water." Any superiority you feel to others is purely an illusion.

Says the ugly bag of mostly water that doesn't put his own opinion on the equal level of another person and refuses to share all of his belongings with all people.

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