No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Life, the universe, and everything.
Forum rules
- No personal attacks against players or staff members - please be civil!
- No posting of mature images/links, keep content SFW. If it's NSFW, don't post it on these forums.
Turxx
Sojourner
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 5:01 am

No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Turxx » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:05 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39154226/vp ... &gt1=43001

seems to be working and seems like an outstanding idea
i never got lower then a b on a test, usually an a
i also grew up on a farm, i woke up at 5, milked cows, got 10 mins to shower and catch the bus, got home from school, ate and watched cartoons for an hour before chores and got in at 930, bed time at 10 if i wanted to stay awake in school the next day
i know i wasnt typical, but my grades were terrible because i refused to do homework
kids are short sighted, they dont see the importance of school
i wish my school let what i did in school reflect in my grades and not what i didnt have time or desire to do at home
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Corth » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:14 am

Seems like a good idea to me. I also routinely scored A's on exams and just found the homework pointless. I resented having to spend time on it when I already knew the material so I wouldn't do it - and then my grade would drop. Maybe there is something to be said for learning how to jump through hoops early. But it seems to me that is a lowest common demoninator approach. Better way is to treat each student as an individual - and if they need to do extra work to master the material then speak with the parents and arrange for a more rigorous program.
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:56 pm

Before you consider what is best for the first two standard deviations of intelligence levels, think about where you placed on standardized testing given to a broad range of people. (SATs are given to the college-bound and hopeful, not a great measure)

If you're in the 75th percentile, hint - you experience and mileage is one that varied.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Corth » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:30 pm

Agreed - by why the one size fits all approach? Some people need it, other's dont.
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:45 am

Corth wrote:Agreed - by why the one size fits all approach? Some people need it, other's dont.

Mostly because parents don't like hearing that more tax dollars were spent on someone else's child.

This is not to mean that I disagree with the no homework premise, but to serve as an observation that might answer the question.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Corth » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:10 pm

I think parents mostly can't stand homework because they end up spending time helping with it.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Ragorn » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:52 pm

I conned a few teachers in high school into letting me take their class "exams only." When I did that, I got As. When I was graded on whether or not I spent two hours practicing a skill I had already mastered, I got Cs.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby kiryan » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:45 pm

Bleh, this video is stupid. I can't believe they put these kinds of morons in positions of importance.

Parents aren't smart enough or have enough time to help their kids with their homework? There is your problem. Parental responsibility and devotion to their children and apparently education level since they can't help their grade schoolers with their homework.

Kids don't like taking homework home, carrying those books hurt their shoulders? Seriously?

Anecdotal testimony from a teacher that kids are "ready" and excited to be at school ostensibly because they aren't worried about the work they may have to take home?

We need to use our time at school more productively? Duh.

Eliminating the culture of homework? WTF is wrong with these people.

---

This year my 9 yo Bryce skipped 4th grade and went straight into 5th, but he still knows literally everything in the 5th grade math book. So I told him that he needs to sit down and do every problem in the book then I'll go back to the school and move him into 6th grade math.

When I sit down with him, he does 3 lessons per hour. When I don't supervise him directly, he does 1 lesson every 2 hours. I've tried every kind of coercion you can imagine including a smart phone, a month off of "extra" homework, PS3, spankings, verbal reasoning, guilt trips, success in life stories etc.., the only thing that works is me sitting down with him. Not only does he do the work 6x faster, he actually as far as I can tell enjoys doing the work more. Probably a result of his extroverted personality. I'm so frustrated at this point, I'm almost willing to just say fine, suffer through a year of 5th grade math. I won't however, because the problem is discipline which is why I disagree with statements made by Corth and Ragorn and those made by these supposed educators.

Bryce doesn't have the discipline to apply his cognitive ability. I don't have the discipline to not take on new projects and do the things I want to do to sit with him and ensure his success. These parents who complain about their kids having 2 hours of homework a night are making excuses for their lack of discipline, their lack of instillign discipline and their lack of effectiveness helping their kids. its so bad now that every school I've been involved with starting about 5 years ago sends home a "journal" that lists the kids homework and the parents have to sign. Stupid ridiculous, but obviously very effective. Teachers and the education system may have some part in this due to their inability to introduce concepts and teach effectively, but the majority of the problem here is the parents.

Specifically to Ragorn and Corth's comments.

Being smart is only half of what you need, you also need hard work and discipline. Its easy to say I'm hard working I just don't do stupid stuff, but its also easy for that to ultimately let you down. The problem is not kids wasting time doing or not doing homework, the problem is discipline which is part of what homework teaches you. My kid does not have the discipline to apply his cognitive ability which is why I haven't had him skip a grade until now. Imagine these kids in the workplace. Really, gen Y has no idea how to follow rules and they think that just because something is 'stupid' or they already know it they shouldn't have to. Some of that is good, but certainly not all of it. What happens when they encounter something they have to work at? You take the easy road all your life then when you encounter something hard you think they are automatically going to apply their fullest ability?

The reality is every kid must be treated differently to reach their potential which is in opposition to the one size fits all public education system. The flipside of this particularly for gifted children is that you must ensure they develop good character and a work ethic because everything is so easy for them. There is a fine line between genius and insanity; I personally came very close to taking a criminal path as a youth. Also you must consider whatever you measure will perform. Test scores may go up, but it is not a given that this will result in increase our global competitiveness, indicate success in college or in the research lab or in the work force or even in your personal life and relationships.

Lastly, stupid is contextual. It may be stupid to make Bryce do 100 simple addition problems when he can add subtract multiply divide fractions decimals and do long multiplcation and division easily and accurately. On the other hand, Bryce did do 100 single digit addition problems and he missed 13 because he multipled them. Is it stupid to make him do that simple addition worksheet because its obviously too easy and boring for him? Or is it wise to give him menail work in order to teach him that he must be disicplined enough to do easy work accurately as well as the work he find interesting?

Really, I haven't seen a dumber video in a long while and I just watched that rick roll one the other night.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Corth » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:53 pm

You make a good point Kiryan concerning discipline. Teaching discipline and work ethic are just as important as the substantive coursework. I kind of alluded to it in my post when I stated that "Maybe there is something to be said for learning how to jump through hoops early." Perhaps homework isn't necessarily as important for learning the subject matter as it is for teaching a kid that when something needs to get done you do it, regardless of how boring or distasteful it is.

In my case I learned discipline and work ethic in college. Not sure why - just one year it kind of clicked. But I got horrible grades until then, notwithstanding the fact that I could usually absorb enough material to do well on exams. I just didn't have it in me to jump through those hoops - and it hurt my education. I guess if I never learned discipline and work ethic, I'd probably be in much worse shape professionally as well.
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Dalar » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:11 pm

I hated homework all the way through school (finished with an EE degree). Didn't teach me shit. When I went into the workforce, I worked my ass off to get projects done. People learn work ethics through a variety of different ways. I agree in that homework is suppose to be teaching the "get shit done even if you don't like it" mentality.

I also think homework is the "grinding" version of "teaching" a skill. If people like Ragorn are acing their exams, why do we need to bore them with mundane tasks like that? It's just busy work and probably job security (more work for teachers to do).

In high school, I literally did one month of Geometry homework in 1 night. Because of that, I just used my Gameboy for a month with my teacher's permission because I basically did all the work and it was correct.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby kiryan » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:45 pm

You are an exception.

Not everyone is an exception, certainly not a whole class or school or nation... the way the administrator talks about eliminating the culture of homework just makes me want to stab myself to death.

This video is stupid as making you sit through hours of geometry class with a game boy. They failed to help you reach your potential... that is assuming you would've worked as hard if you didn't get the reward of sitting in class with your gameboy.

Also, I'm not sure they did you any favors by letting you do things differently... how many fights have you been in with toril adminstration over doing things the right way vs twinking? How frustrated have you been? Of course I guess thats part of your genius... which also fosters an intense distaste for incompetence which you have to endure if you want to function in society and at the workplace.
Adriorn Darkcloak
Sojourner
Posts: 1292
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:11 pm

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:40 pm

As a teacher, here's my response:

Homework is important, if used correctly and NOT overused. Homework REINFORCES the information taught at school, and gives students the opportunity to see for themselves how to solve the problem, practice the rules, etc. Also, if they see they don't fully understand a certain part, they know what they need to ask about or make sure they learn. I think it's an extremely practical and important tool.

However, the problem arises when teachers feel their not really doing their job if they don't assign homework, so they assign busy work, and often. That's when homework becomes "a morale killer, lowers grades", etc. I firmly believe teachers are giving too much homework nowadays. My eldest daughter, a 1st grader, is coming home with too much homework; especially things that are already above her level (we've taught all our kids very well at home before they started school).

I give homework, when I think it is something difficult for them to truly master without them practicing it on their own and seeing for themselves how to use x, the rules of y, etc. Remember the old saying: "Practice makes perfect." Just make sure what they're practicing is important and something they do need to actually practice.

I liked one of the lines the Principal in that video said: "We have parents who don't understand the material and don't know how to teach it to their children". That smells of fail.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:59 pm

The only "homework" I ever did was my programming assignments. Part of it was that I just liked and was good at programming, but another part of it was that I was actually trying to _accomplish_ something. Math homework especially annoyed me because it was just repetitively doing calculations for the sake of calculations. Even word problems were just simple calculations dressed up in sentences.

I think homework would be a lot more effective if it were goal oriented, so that it presented kids with a challenge and gave them some tangible result when completed. I'm sure that would be hard with a lot of subjects, I mean it's easy to see a tic tac toe video game you just wrote... harder to be proud of writing down "42" and all, but I think if teacher's/textbook publishers worked on more interesting exercises homework would be more effective overall with a lower quantity.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Corth » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:18 pm

Sarvis figured out the answer to life the universe and everything all by himself. Impressive!
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:40 pm

Still working on the flying thing though... :(
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby kiryan » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:01 pm

Its easy to make statements like that sarvis, but smarter more dedicated people than we who have studied developing curriculum their entire life have tried to make homework more "challenging" and more "interesting". There is no universal solution. I think you are forgetting many things in your statements.

1) kids are different, some are interested in horses, others in race cars. There is no universal "interesting" thing to kids.

1a) kids have different motivations. some think they are better than others, some try to be bad intentionally, some just never had to do anything in their life and why should they start now?

2) do you know kids? I don't mean kids of intelligent people, I mean kids on average. Think kids in teh ozarks kids in teh ghetto and kids that don't even speak english yet. The kinds of kids that join gangs, that do drugs, that think they are entitled to cell phones and that the world is ending if girl x or boy y talks to them? They think the world revolves around them and that they should only have to do what they want to do.

I highly doubt you can look at your experience as a child and think that what worked for you will work for the general population... or even each of any kids you ever father. I have different educational plans for each of my kids to match each kids personality (which I did my damndest to develop and influence towards my preference), level of discipline and maturity and last and least importantly their natural academic ability. If I gave them all a plan based on how I was edcuated, it would be an epic fail.

3) there is no substitute for learning discipline and organization. Having to take hoemwork home, complete it amidst competing influences like playing video games and watching tv and bringing it back when its due is a critical skill. You will use it your entire life whether its trackign your time, turning in tax paperwork, getting your car registered 30 days after buying it or going to class. There are many kids that NEVER turn in ANY homework their entire school career and get Cs or flunk out. Does it really matter if it was busy work or "interesting" work? Not really. They need to do it regardless of whether they want to.
Last edited by kiryan on Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby kiryan » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:10 pm

Adriorn. Do you really think the work kids are doing these days is beyond them? Have you ever seen those how would you do on a 5th grade test from 1940? I won't say that the curriculum was fundamentally harder back then, but kids are mentally capable of more than they are being asked to do today. Culturally, practically no kids can barely handle what they are given, but thats because we have allowed academic rigor to decline (I blame 2 working parents and a nanny state mentality that the state is responsible for my child's education).

2 of my kids are high above average intelligence. Is that just good genes? 1 of my kids was below grade level in reading and math as of 2nd grade, so how is it that less than 6 months later he was above average and a year later he was a grade level above average? I taught my 9yo and 12 yo right triangle trig cos/sin/tan. The other scored 63rd percentile for reading last year and magically jumped more than an entire grade level in reading this year with no more than reading 1 hour a day over the summer (something he has always done).

I've met very very few truly incapable / dumb kids... and those that are dumb tend to have FAS or parents who were druggies/alcoholics. Many of them fail in school, but its not because they don't have the raw ability. Its because no one puts the effort in, not the kid, not the parent, often times not even the teacher. Kids are capable of learning pretty much anything you teach them, unfortuantely most of the time we teach them that they don't have to do much and there is no benefit to be better and smarter than everyone else.
Adriorn Darkcloak
Sojourner
Posts: 1292
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:11 pm

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:29 pm

kiryan wrote:Adriorn. Do you really think the work kids are doing these days is beyond them?


It depends alot on the teacher. What I've seen is alot of nice teachers teaching above their grade level; meaning a teacher teaching math at 8th grade but, like you said, teaching them below their level. She would make an excellent 3rd grade teacher, but she is teaching way above her level. That happens alot in Math.

Also, I have to place alot of blame on standardized tests. Not all the blame, but alot. Alot of the blame needs to be put mainly on teachers and on parents. And from all my experience, the major blame needs to be placed on Education programs for Middle School teachers. Elementary teachers are pretty well prepared in school, but middle school teachers are trained as if they were elementary school teachers. That immediately reduces the level the students should be at, mentally and knowledge-based. Likewise, blame should be placed on teachers of High School who don't maintain a 'professional' manner in their classes. Students feed off of professional teachers like sponges. But when they see teachers slacking off or trying to be cool, game over. Also, blame the Teacher's Union for protecting shitty teachers from getting fired.

I'm rambling, but yeah, blame needs to be placed physically on all parties, not just one or two. And no, I don't think that kids are doing work that is above their level, at all. Down here in Miami, ESPECIALLY not in the Public Schools. We have 2-3 very good public schools, the rest are dismal, dismal.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby kiryan » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:26 pm

There are bad teachers, but the 75% of the blame needs to be on parents. 100% actually since if your kid has a bad teacher you as a parent need to go down to the school and start kicking ass and get your kid a good teacher. When push comes to shove, I've never lost a battle in 3 different school districts. Its my responsibility and failure if my kids don't get educated, not the schools.

The standardized tests do set the bars too low (so schools can perform and eventually bonus their teachers). Because of that teachers have to teach to the test. I agree with you that is a big problem. the sad part is that our kids fail to even meet those ridiculously low standards.

I taught my 9 yo the quadratic equation last night and forced him to do 5 lessons of adding and subtracting fractions with common denominators. Yes this is lesson 86/120 in the 5th grade math book. adding and subtracting fractions. that is seriously pathetic.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Ragorn » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:54 pm

The blame is so widely distributed, you have no idea. You can start by blaming textbook publishing companies. Publishers very often resist major changes to learning standards while embracing minor ones, because their profit margin is widest when they can print new editions of their textbooks with only minor (but required) changes. Textbook publishers have historically been one of the largest lobbying forces in Congress to oppose sweeping reform to national learning standards. Remember in college when your asshole professor made you buy the new edition of a textbook instead of using the old edition that you bought, like, two semesters ago? That's how it goes for public schools, every year, for every student.

You can blame parents who don't give a fuck whether their student gets an A or a D, as long as they don't have to go to a PTA meeting.

You can blame the student who thinks it's funny to draw dicks on the scantron test form instead of actually taking the standardized test.

You can blame the Christian groups who fight to have Shakespeare and Thomas Jefferson and Charles Darwin and Dante removed from public schools, lest our children be exposed to "evil influences."

You can blame teachers who don't give a crap. Teachers who have watched bright kids fail, motivated kids give up, and entire classes of dopes more interested in American Idol than American History come and go through the school system. Teachers who assign homework because the teaacher's manual tells them to. Teachers who mark kids wrong for doing things differently.

You can blame the bullies who perpetuate a culture where it's lame to be smart, where kids are ostracized for achieving in school. You can also blame the (adult) culture in our country where scientists, researchers, and legitimate scientific findings are ignored in favor of media hype and politcally slanted backlash. You can't raise your child to believe that "scientists are idiots" and then expect them to perform in science class.

You can blame the previous administration for No Child Left Behind. NCLB forces schools to care about standardized testing, because their funding depends on the performance of their students. Now, that kid who's drawing dicks isn't just being an ass, he's directly contributing to the budget the school will receive for teachers, assistants, administration, and supplies for the next school year. It's not about bonuses for teachers, it's about schools that are already falling behind being forced to cut staff and hours because they didn't show x% year-over-year improvement in reading scores. NCLB puts schools on a slippery slope... once you start failing, it's that much harder to correct.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:52 pm

I do blame parents.

I blame parents for kids who draw dicks on their scantron. my kid would not be able to sit for a month if this ever happened.

Your comments about Christians. I don't find it relevant to blame for poor performance. You can teach good principles regardless of the specific topics you mentioned. We'll you do need to teach darwinish if you want to teach biology because it is the dominant theory.

I do blame some teachers, but in my 12 years and my combined 20ish years of my kids, I don't find very many teachers who don't care. I've never sent my kids to a truly ghetto school however so I do believe they exist. I just can't believe these are high percentages based on my experience.

If you want to blame bullies, you can blame culture in general. Still I don't think you can lay much blame here. I'd wager you could place more blame on the smart kids for making the dumb kids feel like they can't compete.

I flat out reject your criticism of NCLB. NCLB was a massive power grab for control of education and I firmly object to that, but the principle is to establish common standards across the USA so you can compare schools and kids. The minimum standards are exactly that, minimum standards that states and schools have never been subject to before. NCLB does result in a slippery slope for poorly performing schools, but poorly performing schools need to be shutdown and reworked. You are not going to just keep collecting a paycheck and keep funding a failing school... whatever the reason for the failure. This may not be a practical solution, but something must be done and nothing has worked in the last 20 years we've been talking about it.

Now as I just got done blaming kids failures on parents this may seem like I'm placing the responsibility on the teachers. Yes I am, yes its unfair, but who else can reach the parents and turn this around? Teachers are the conduit through which this change must flow whether it has anything to do with teaching kids or not.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:03 pm

kiryan wrote:If you want to blame bullies, you can blame culture in general. Still I don't think you can lay much blame here.


You're kidding right? Our entire culture is anti-education. You personally call into question college educations, demonizing it as part of a liberal conspiracy. There are no cheerleaders for the debate team in high school, but you're a damn celebrity if you join the football team. (Football of course, other sports don't really work.)

Frankly, Rags' post was spot on in every respect.

I flat out reject your criticism of NCLB. NCLB was a massive power grab for control of education and I firmly object to that, but the principle is to establish common standards across the USA so you can compare schools and kids. The minimum standards are exactly that, minimum standards that states and schools have never been subject to before. NCLB does result in a slippery slope for poorly performing schools, but poorly performing schools need to be shutdown and reworked. You are not going to just keep collecting a paycheck and keep funding a failing school... whatever the reason for the failure. This may not be a practical solution, but something must be done and nothing has worked in the last 20 years we've been talking about it.


So the "best" schools in the country teach to the minimum requirements. Yeah, we have SUCH a pro-learning culture here. :roll:

Now as I just got done blaming kids failures on parents this may seem like I'm placing the responsibility on the teachers. Yes I am, yes its unfair, but who else can reach the parents and turn this around? Teachers are the conduit through which this change must flow whether it has anything to do with teaching kids or not.


Everyone has to change, not just the teachers, not just the parents and not just the kids.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:45 pm

I'll disagree with our whole culture being anti education. I don't know anyone who thinks education is pointless. They may not celebrate it, but I don't hear anyone saying getting educated is dumb. Many will say school is dumb, but not education.

Minimum standards do not require "best" and elite schools to lower their standards. Quit being a retard.

Yes everyone has to change. The change must occur at the parental level, but will be driven at the teacher / school level for at least a generation. Regardless of who is temporarlily leading the charge, the utlimate responsibility must eventually be at the parental level unless we want a society where you have the kids and then turn them over to the state for parenting.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:52 pm

kiryan wrote:I'll disagree with our whole culture being anti education. I don't know anyone who thinks education is pointless. They may not celebrate it, but I don't hear anyone saying getting educated is dumb. Many will say school is dumb, but not education.


I'm sure if I felt like it I could find plenty of examples of conservative christians stating exactly that. You don't need to know anything that isn't in the Bible, after all.

Minimum standards do not require "best" and elite schools to lower their standards. Quit being a retard.


What do you think happens when teachers do nothing but ensure the material on the tests is covered?

Yes everyone has to change. The change must occur at the parental level, but will be driven at the teacher / school level for at least a generation. Regardless of who is temporarlily leading the charge, the utlimate responsibility must eventually be at the parental level unless we want a society where you have the kids and then turn them over to the state for parenting.


Most parents these days start with turning the kids over to Barney for parenting. You really think teachers can change that attitude?
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Ragorn » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:16 pm

kiryan wrote:I flat out reject your criticism of NCLB. NCLB was a massive power grab for control of education and I firmly object to that, but the principle is to establish common standards across the USA so you can compare schools and kids. The minimum standards are exactly that, minimum standards that states and schools have never been subject to before. NCLB does result in a slippery slope for poorly performing schools, but poorly performing schools need to be shutdown and reworked. You are not going to just keep collecting a paycheck and keep funding a failing school... whatever the reason for the failure. This may not be a practical solution, but something must be done and nothing has worked in the last 20 years we've been talking about it.

If you flat out reject criticism of NCLB, it's likely because you don't understand what it is. NCLB doesn't set up a system of national standards that schools are held to. That's not what it does. NCLB has a couple unfortunate effects on our education system:

- Funding is not awarded based on achievement, it's based on improvement. A school whose test scores slip from the 93rd percentile to the 90th will likely face more instructional scrutiny than a school that improves from the 40th to the 41st.

- Because NCLB directly ties funding to test performance, it's the single biggest motivator for "teaching to the test." Many educators literally (and I don't use the word "literally" as a figure of speech here) rearrange the order of the units they teach so that content on the NCLB tests will be taught closer to (and before) the test date. You end up with a system where the curriculum is based on the test, not the other way around. And from April-June, well shit, the kids have already taken the test, so the motivation to succeed drops off considerably.

- Each state writes its own educational standards, and the NCLB is geared toward STATE standards (not national standards), so you end up with a system where underperforming states simply rewrite their standards to be easier. In essence, states with dumb kids make the test easier so they look better, they don't improve the quality of the education. In order to show "improvement," states just keep lowering the bar and kids keep getting dumber and dumber. The standards in California are much more stringent than the standards in Louisiana, for example.

NLCB has its benefits, but the implementation of the program is bad.

I'll disagree with our whole culture being anti education. I don't know anyone who thinks education is pointless. They may not celebrate it, but I don't hear anyone saying getting educated is dumb. Many will say school is dumb, but not education.

I know a LOT of people who say science is wrong, and that "university elite" are part of a vast liberal conspiracy.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:38 pm

Why would a "best" school not already be covering everything on the test? This is a MINIMUM standard.

Well apparently I don't know as much about NCLB as I thought I did. I thought it established a federal standard, apparently it doesn't. I concede the point on lowering standards. Its a shame that voters in individual states allow this to happen.

For those parents turning thier kids over to Barney... who is going to change their attitude? Their employer? Their parents who allowed their kids to have that standard in the first place? Police? Fire department? the IRS? The only place this can be addressed externally is at the teacher/school level. Schools are at the forefront of shaping American culture. Its funny that you think its fine when we're promoting the liberal agenda, but not for parental responsibility.

I take back what I said about not knowing anyone, my mother in law doesn't believe in college especially for women.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:41 pm

kiryan wrote:Why would a "best" school not already be covering everything on the test? This is a MINIMUM standard.


Probably the same reason your school didn't cover reading comprehension.
Adriorn Darkcloak
Sojourner
Posts: 1292
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:11 pm

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:41 am

I agree with most of what Ragorn and Sarvis have been saying, actually.

I do believe the liberal university crap though. But I prefer to use the term left-wing. Too much shit I saw at the university. And I disagree about conservatives thinking universities are bad. Many of those left-wing university professors are bad, not the university education. Well, in many fields anyways.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:26 pm

Laurel's biology professor said right at the beginning of the first class. If you don't believe evolution you will find it difficult to pass this class. Then he went on to lay out a position that if you want to be a scientist you have to agree with darwinism because scientists don't discuss evolution. misguided laypeople discuss evolution, but not scientists. My wife challenged him on micro vs macro evolution and he basically said theres only evolution micro and macro is just a creationism argument to try and invalidate settled science.

Then he went on and said its sad that most people who take his class who don't believe in evolution become teachers and thats a problem. I thought that part was hillarious.
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:41 pm

True science doesn't require your belief. It requires your questions, observations, and rational mind.

But he is right about one thing. You'll never get any fucking funding if you don't believe in evolution.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:15 pm

kiryan wrote:Laurel's biology professor said right at the beginning of the first class. If you don't believe evolution you will find it difficult to pass this class. Then he went on to lay out a position that if you want to be a scientist you have to agree with darwinism because scientists don't discuss evolution. misguided laypeople discuss evolution, but not scientists. My wife challenged him on micro vs macro evolution and he basically said theres only evolution micro and macro is just a creationism argument to try and invalidate settled science.

That is correct. Science accepted evolution as fact a generation ago, the only "discussion" happening is the observation of the details. You're free to believe in magical sky wizardry if you want to, but if you want to pass biology, you have to understand natural selection and genetic inheritance of survival traits. You can opt out of biology and take another science course instead in most school districts, but don't expect to pass biology if you refuse to study evolution of species.

Oh, also, don't expect to pass physics if you refuse to believe in gravity. I'm not real sure what Jesus's position on gravity is, after the Sermon on the Mount and flying up in the sky and stuff. Not real clear what his stance is on the laws of thermodynamics, conservation of matter, human reproduction, or the fundamentals of buoyancy for that matter. Actually, now that I think about it, it's probably best to leave your Bible at home if you plan to pass a science course. If you don't pray in my school, I promise not to think in your church :)
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby kiryan » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:21 pm

How many times has the dominant theory in "science" been proven wrong?

One thing is for sure, science is done evolving when disagreement and debate are no longer permitted. The self righteous quelling of all dissent is the characteristic of a a closed system, not an open minded one searching for answers. Just because you haven't measured God doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Just because evolution is logical doesn't mean it actually happened that way or even works for that matter.

Micro evolution is a provable theory, the jury is still out on species changing into new species.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Sarvis » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:28 pm

kiryan wrote:The self righteous quelling of all dissent is the characteristic of a a closed system,


AKA Religion.

not an open minded one searching for answers. Just because you haven't measured God doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Just because evolution is logical doesn't mean it actually happened that way or even works for that matter.

Micro evolution is a provable theory, the jury is still out on species changing into new species.


The problem is Christians haven't provided any evidence whatsoever that would make anyone question evolution. So far ALL the evidence we have points to evolution. Reasonable Christians even accept Evolution as the process God used to create the species in existence today. It's only the bible thumping literalists who question evolution because they believe 7 days was 7 literal days, and the Earth is only 6,000 years old. (A belief which in itself denies a LOT more science than just evolution.)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:41 pm

kiryan wrote:One thing is for sure, science is done evolving when disagreement and debate are no longer permitted. The self righteous quelling of all dissent is the characteristic of a a closed system, not an open minded one searching for answers.

On the other hand, proof or gtfo. Faith is not proof. The possibility of an alternate solution is not proof. Dissenting without evidence doesn't make it a discussion, it makes you a denier.

Just because you haven't measured God doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

Absolutely true! Maybe Jesus exists! Likewise, maybe Shiva, Buddha, Muhammad, Zeus, Gandalf, and Ariel the Mermaid exist. There is exactly the same volume of evidence for Jesus any of the other individuals on the list. I'm perfectly willing to accept that conclusion, are you? :)

Micro evolution is a provable theory, the jury is still out on species changing into new species.

Nope, that jury came back 50 years ago. Provable theory. Has already been proven.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby kiryan » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:21 pm

lol evolution has not been proven. you seriously believe its been proven? Its commonly accepted as fact, but not proven scientifically. If it were, I guaratee you that my wife's biology professor would've stated that but he has something you don't, intellectual honesty... even if he's going to try his damndest to make you believe his point of view.

I don't have to bring proof that a different theory is true to debate the validity of a different theory. I'm attacking the position that liberals increasingly take which is if enough people / "experts" believe it, its true and you have to believe it too. Climate change and evolution are two examples. You take some evidence, you come up with a conclusion and then you declare it to be irrefutable truth because you won a populatity contest. There is evidence of climate change, to jump from A to Z and declare it irrefutably man made is irresponsible and intellectually dishonest.

Group think has NO place in science. Countervailing viewpoints are crucial to the development of any subject, whether its science or religion. And Laurel's professor is doign science a disservice by trying to coerce people into changing their viewpoint in order to get a good grade.

Ragorn, I'm not saying you can write on your exam evolution is false and expect to pass, but if you demonstrate that you understand the theory of evolution on the test, you should pass regardless of what you personally believe to be true and argue in class. If you write an essay laying out all the facets of evolution as well as the criticisms of it, you should not get a lower grade because you "didn't understand the material" which is obvious to the professor since you still believe evolution is not proven. You understand the material, you just believe there are valid "scientific" criticisms.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Sarvis » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:44 pm

Kiryan's right, you should only believe things written in a 2000 year old book. Not things for which there is a lot of evidence that you can read about yourself in books published less than 2000 years ago. Pay no attention to any evidence gathered in that time.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:28 pm

kiryan wrote:lol evolution has not been proven. you seriously believe its been proven? Its commonly accepted as fact, but not proven scientifically.

This is a pretty sad commentary on the level of scientific knowledge among the right-wing extreme. If you didn't even know that evolution has long been laid to rest as a point of active discussion, it's no wonder you still believe in fairies.

I don't have to bring proof that a different theory is true to debate the validity of a different theory.

Jesus was an extra-terrestrial. I know you'll consider this theory and give it as much weight as the theory that he was the son of god, because it's not necessary to provide proof in order to debate the validity of a different theory.

You take some evidence, you come up with a conclusion and then you declare it to be irrefutable truth

Yeah, what the fuck, liberals? You take some evidence, you draw a conclusion from it, and you declare it to be truth? That's just fucking stupid. Do you even HAVE a holy book, written by cave people 40 generations ago? I didn't think so. Stupid lieberals and their lamestream media.

Ragorn, I'm not saying you can write on your exam evolution is false and expect to pass, but if you demonstrate that you understand the theory of evolution on the test, you should pass regardless of what you personally believe to be true and argue in class. If you write an essay laying out all the facets of evolution as well as the criticisms of it, you should not get a lower grade because you "didn't understand the material" which is obvious to the professor since you still believe evolution is not proven.

If you understand the material, you'll pass the class. Unless you think the professor is going to mark you down for being a christian, which I believe falls under the HELP US WE'RE SO REPRESSED banner you christians keep waving.

You understand the material, you just believe there are valid "scientific" criticisms.

If you understood the material, you wouldn't believe there were valid criticisms, nor would you keep putting "scientific" in quotation marks.

Absolutely true! Maybe Jesus exists! Likewise, maybe Shiva, Buddha, Muhammad, Zeus, Gandalf, and Ariel the Mermaid exist. There is exactly the same volume of evidence for Jesus any of the other individuals on the list. I'm perfectly willing to accept that conclusion, are you? :)

Oops you forgot to answer this. I'll just go ahead and remind you :)
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Sarvis » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:42 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Absolutely true! Maybe Jesus exists! Likewise, maybe Shiva, Buddha, Muhammad, Zeus, Gandalf, and Ariel the Mermaid exist. There is exactly the same volume of evidence for Jesus any of the other individuals on the list. I'm perfectly willing to accept that conclusion, are you? :)

Oops you forgot to answer this. I'll just go ahead and remind you :)


You forgot Jesus talks to Kiryan. Directly.
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Oh how the mighty fall on their hypocritical sword of personal insults.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: No more homework!!! WHOOT!

Postby Sarvis » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:30 pm

How is that an insult? He's stated so himself.

Return to “T2 General Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest