the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

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the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:28 pm

http://www.elle.com/Life-Love/Society-C ... d-Abortion

Has some subleties and distinctions that I hadn't read about before interspersed with story about some dude.

An article I read a while back quoted the head of Planned parenthood saying something like if the woman has sole right to choose to have or abort a baby, then what choice does the man make that obligates him to financial support?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Ragorn » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:20 pm

You believe that women should have to suffer the consequences of their actions by carrying the baby to term, so I'm not sure why you'd think men would have any kind of right to duck out of financial responsibility for the baby.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:38 pm

I don't believe in abortion. However regardless of what I believe it is currently legal and the current situation is grossly unfair. I'm asking for common sense standards.

If the woman has the sole authority to make the choice of whether to have a baby, she should have the full responsibility for the decision.

If a man and a woman agree that they will not have children before sex and the woman decides to have a child anyways or entered into the agreement planning fraud, she should be responsible for the costs of that fraud or her unilateral decision to change her mind.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Kifle » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:40 pm

Just imagine the welfare load that would put on the state if men were able to refuse financial responsibility on a child the man voted for abortion but the woman voted against. You would see a huge rise in welfare; however, do you think, in the long haul, this would lead to more abortions and less reliance upon welfare? This would curb all the pregnancies that result from the woman trying to trap the man into staying. Equal rights... I'm all for it.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:11 am

Men have the right to withhold their sperm. Just as women have the right to withhold the possibility of semen introduction. This is simple stuff people.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:42 pm

Kifle if men and women have equal rights, how does the man have any rights when the woman has the sole right to choose? When you enter into a contract verbal or written, there is a responsibility attributed to the party who breaks the terms. If a woman agrees to get an abortion if she gets pregnant and that is your condition to have sexual relations with her, why can she change her mind and shift the financial responsibility for that decision onto the man?

Liberals pushing for women's rights created this problem in the first place, so don't blame me for the chaos that results when you implement the principles equally for men and women.

Teflor.. it is that simple, but I'm not arguing a moral position. have you ever heard of surrogate / up for adoption mothers being sued for tens of thousands fo dollars because they refused to give up a child they had previously agreed to? How is this very different except the financial support is up front in one case and after the child is born on the other. Contracts can limit your rights. So why is it when an agreement (verbal contract) with an offer, an acceptance and consideration between two competent parties not be valid because it has to do with a woman's right to choose?

The only way we can achieve reproductive equality for men is if they also have a choice on whether to abort a child. Since this would infringe upon the woman's right to her body, the only logical alternative is that the child is designated having no "father" therefore eliminating the support requirement. This immunity has legal precedence with sperm donor banks. You can't get pregnant using donated sperm then sue the father for support.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:00 am

Two things Kiryan: timing and enforcement. The law cannot compel an abortion without strong medical reasons. Furthermore, when the baby is already born, you can enforce a contract.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby kiryan » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:57 am

right so since you can't compel an abortion without infringing upon the woman's rights, the only relief you could receive would be to freed from any and all obligations related to being the "father". To be fair, it should be permitted up until the same point a woman loses her right to choose to have an abortion. There should be laws requiring a woman to notify men who may be the father within 48 hours of finding out themselves. That would be the only fair thing to do to protect men's rights.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:52 pm

That would defeat the notion of child support by making a woman equal to a man.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Pril » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:59 pm

Here's another interesting view. The woman has the child against the mans wishes. Can't support said child because she has no income so the guy pays more child support. If the guy wants to have custody of the child the woman has to royally mess up. So the question is since she clearly doesn't have enough common sense to not have the kid when she has no means of supporting the child... shouldn't that be enough for the guy to have custody if he so chooses?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:18 pm

No, because the woman was smart enough to realize that child support would take care of it by putting a government gun to the man's head.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:01 pm

Pril wrote:Here's another interesting view. The woman has the child against the mans wishes. Can't support said child because she has no income so the guy pays more child support. If the guy wants to have custody of the child the woman has to royally mess up. So the question is since she clearly doesn't have enough common sense to not have the kid when she has no means of supporting the child... shouldn't that be enough for the guy to have custody if he so chooses?

If the mother doesn't have a job or source of income substantial enough to suppor the child, it's not all that hard for the father to get custody. Trivially easy in some states. The problem comes when he doesn't want custody... dude knocks up his girlfriend, she doesn't have a job, he never wanted the baby. He can't force her to abort, and he can't get out of making child support payments unless he takes custody of the child personally.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby kiryan » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:13 pm

Ragorn did you become a Republican lately? You're playing the fear card an awful lot.

This is not about guys forcing women to have abortions. Its about 2 adults having an agreement that they won't have a child together and then each upholding their end of the bargain. This is a simple contract dispute and when one party reneges on the contract, the other party is entitled to relief from the court. In this case, the relief would be legally be declared not the father despite the biological proof otherwise.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Ragorn » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:06 am

kiryan wrote:Ragorn did you become a Republican lately? You're playing the fear card an awful lot.

Just because you're afraid of letting people have freedom of choice doesn't mean I'm playing the fear card.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:32 am

Ragorn wrote:
kiryan wrote:Ragorn did you become a Republican lately? You're playing the fear card an awful lot.

Just because you're afraid of letting people have freedom of choice doesn't mean I'm playing the fear card.

What choice does the fetus have again?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:39 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
kiryan wrote:Ragorn did you become a Republican lately? You're playing the fear card an awful lot.

Just because you're afraid of letting people have freedom of choice doesn't mean I'm playing the fear card.

What choice does the fetus have again?


Parents are responsible for all of their childrens' choices until age 18.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Pril » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:09 pm

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
kiryan wrote:Ragorn did you become a Republican lately? You're playing the fear card an awful lot.

Just because you're afraid of letting people have freedom of choice doesn't mean I'm playing the fear card.

What choice does the fetus have again?


Parents are responsible for all of their childrens' choices until age 18.


With that logic if a minor commits a crime should the parents be sent to jail?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:23 pm

Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
kiryan wrote:Ragorn did you become a Republican lately? You're playing the fear card an awful lot.

Just because you're afraid of letting people have freedom of choice doesn't mean I'm playing the fear card.

What choice does the fetus have again?


Parents are responsible for all of their childrens' choices until age 18.


With that logic if a minor commits a crime should the parents be sent to jail?


In some cases they have been. In fact the parents ARE liable for any monetary damages or anything like that.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Pril » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:44 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
kiryan wrote:Ragorn did you become a Republican lately? You're playing the fear card an awful lot.

Just because you're afraid of letting people have freedom of choice doesn't mean I'm playing the fear card.

What choice does the fetus have again?


Parents are responsible for all of their childrens' choices until age 18.


With that logic if a minor commits a crime should the parents be sent to jail?


In some cases they have been. In fact the parents ARE liable for any monetary damages or anything like that.


So here's the question. If a 8 year old kid steals some baseball cards from the store should parents be held responsible as if they themselves stole the cards or should there be a diminished punishment for them?

If a 16 year is in possession of tobacco or alcohol should his or her parents be treated as if they were in possession of marijuana or cocaine since the tobacco/alcohol is illegal for the minor?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:24 pm

Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
kiryan wrote:Ragorn did you become a Republican lately? You're playing the fear card an awful lot.

Just because you're afraid of letting people have freedom of choice doesn't mean I'm playing the fear card.

What choice does the fetus have again?


Parents are responsible for all of their childrens' choices until age 18.


With that logic if a minor commits a crime should the parents be sent to jail?


In some cases they have been. In fact the parents ARE liable for any monetary damages or anything like that.


So here's the question. If a 8 year old kid steals some baseball cards from the store should parents be held responsible as if they themselves stole the cards or should there be a diminished punishment for them?

If a 16 year is in possession of tobacco or alcohol should his or her parents be treated as if they were in possession of marijuana or cocaine since the tobacco/alcohol is illegal for the minor?



Let me ask YOU some questions that are actually somewhat related to what we're talking about:

1) If a 16 year old needs surgery, who has to sign the consent forms?
2) If a 13 year old is pregnant, does the child or the parents decide if she gets an abortion?

I'm betting the answer to both is the parent.

In fact, a parent can refuse life-saving surgery for her infant: http://theview.abc.go.com/forum/mother- ... ons?page=7

So enough of your straw men. Who makes the healthcare decisions for a minor?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:08 pm

1) if the parent doesn't sign the consent form, DHS will step in and force them to via the courts... at least some of the time. Whose choice is it, the parents or the parents as long as they do what their told to?

2) interesting question, varies by state whether parental consent is necessary and at what age. Interesting you picked such a young child instead of say a 17 yo child who is still a minor.

http://www.essortment.com/articles/abor ... 100000.htm

Several states don't require parental consent. Several have judicial bypasses that allows a judge to sign the parental consent form. Several states have laws that have injunctions or are not being enforced. Then there are activists that will pretend to be your parent and planned parenthood isn't exactly inclined to follow parental consent laws given their mission and the fact they campaign against parental consent.

As a matter of fact, the most recent multi state debate we've had on this issue is about parental NOTIFICATION, note that is not the same thing as consent.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:19 pm

kiryan wrote:1) if the parent doesn't sign the consent form, DHS will step in and force them to via the courts.


Department of Homeland Security?

2) interesting question, varies by state whether parental consent is necessary and at what age. Interesting you picked such a young child instead of say a 17 yo child who is still a minor.


Yep, for a reason. A child gets more autonomy and responsibility for their choices as they age. Another year, and that 17 year old is a full adult so courts/doctors would be more likely to let her make the decision. But a 13 year old?


http://www.essortment.com/articles/abor ... 100000.htm

Several states don't require parental consent. Several have judicial bypasses that allows a judge to sign the parental consent form. Several states have laws that have injunctions or are not being enforced. Then there are activists that will pretend to be your parent and planned parenthood isn't exactly inclined to follow parental consent laws given their mission and the fact they campaign against parental consent.

As a matter of fact, the most recent multi state debate we've had on this issue is about parental NOTIFICATION, note that is not the same thing as consent.



Yet a mother can keep her infant from getting life-saving surgery. So yes, when DOES a child get to choose? Why does a woman's religion get to choose death for a baby after it's born?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:11 pm

Help me understand. You just got done saying parents make all these decisions and have all the responsibility. Now you're saying the kids have the right to make the decision? Is it the parents decision or not?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:27 pm

You're confused because, in your little world, a 17 year old is the same as an infant?

Shouldn't be surprising since you think the DHS does CPS's job.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:31 pm

1) He's not confused, you are that your stupid ideas provide any guidance when they depend not on any objective guidance but on your stupid method of thinking.

2) DHS is a VERY commonly used acronym for a commonly named "Department of Human Services." Many states call their department this. You just have no idea about what you are talking about as usual.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:33 pm

Teflor, shut the fuck up until you can show that parents do not make medical decisions for their infants.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:45 pm

This baby had a growth growing around one of its eyes. This condition was expected to cause blindness if untreated. They took the baby away from the parents. infants are considered mentally incompetent. There is plenty of cases where the state intervenes and forces decisions where mentally incomptent people are involved, young, old, autistic etc. Furthermore, parents are generally "required" to act within the "best interests" of a child as determined by a reasonable and rational standard.

So here you go you dumb fuck, infant, medical decision being made by the court in contradiction to the parent's beliefs. I'm not saying its right, but it clearly shows the parents are not in charge.

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascoun ... arent.html

Anderson and Clackamas County prosecutor Colleen Gilmartin opposed Alayna's return to the Wylands. They said it would make it more difficult to track the child's well-being and that her fragile medical needs would be best met in foster care. Moreover, the attorneys have argued, the girl is in foster care because of her parents' failure to adequately care for her.

The Wylands agreed to all conditions imposed by Van Dyk.

"Will you abide by this court's order regarding medical treatment?" Van Dyk asked Wylands. Each of them responded, "Yes, sir."

----

Oh and one more thing dipshit. DHS, department of human services aka Child Protective Services aka Child Services Division. Only a complete fucking moron would assume that DHS can only mean department of homeland security.

From the same article.

"The state Department of Human Services will seek legal custody at an Oct. 12 in Clackamas County Circuit Court. A trial date in the Wylands' criminal case will be set Oct. 7."
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Kifle » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:54 pm

Eh, I like the man's right to choice presented here. I actually had a discussion about this at the dinner table with the family a few nights ago. The wife objects to the man relinquishing the financial burden in a split vote scenario; however, I don't see how one could logically do so. Sure, it takes two to tango, but the woman has every right and choice to erase the mistake; so, logically, if one has the right to erase a joint mistake, the other should as well. Abortion in general is a great idea. It controls population without wars in a species that has proven time and time again that it can't control the population through prudent decision making and foresight.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:55 pm

Wow, so what you're saying is that the baby still doesn't have a choice in the matter? It's decided either by the parents or by a court? So when Teflor asked: "What choice does the fetus have again?"

The answer is None. Either the Parents or the State make choices for the fetus.

Of course, you two are also the biggest proponents of keeping the state OUT of personal medical and family decisions so....

Come on Kiryan, since when do you advocate that the State tell you how to raise your children?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Kifle » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:59 pm

Until a fetus can communicate its choice, it wont have one. That's like me asking whether or not my hamburger wants to be eaten? Who the fuck cares; it's going in my belly regardless.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Kifle » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:04 pm

Seriously, though, on the topic of fetus choice: The only way to properly give it a choice is to allow it to chose to remain living once it has the cognitive abilities to make a choice. So, at, lets say, age 15/16 the kid no longer wants to live and decides that abortion was the correct avenue. Do we then make suicide legal?

See, the funny thing about the "fetus'" choice is that it can only have one legal outcome -- life. It cannot decide at the state in which it is legal to abort, and by the time it is legally able to choose for itself, termination is illegal. It is a faux decision that is dictated by the framework of law and biology. In reality, using the "fetus' choice" argument is akin to only allowing you to jump in a free fall environment.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:40 pm

I am an advocate for parents right to raise their children free of government influence.

It was your question on who makes the decision for the fetus. the parent does unless the state doesn't like it. So thats either parents or the state depending on how you want to argue it philosophically.

I started this thread to talk about how men are having their right to choose being oppressed by women who fail to live up to their end of a verbal contract. The specific situation is:

man and woman discuss not having babies, agree to have abortion if they do get pregnant, woman gets pregnant, exercises her exclusive right to choose, man is forced to be a dad and forced to support the child.

I'm not advocating that men have a right to choose after the fact of a pregnancy, but before a pregnancy under the above conditions, the man I think is entitled to the relief of being declared not the father by the courts... or the man should at least have a right to sue the woman for breach of contract and damages (equal to at least the financial support).

We'll get to men having the right to choose after the fact later via incrementalism. its only fair if there is a right to choose.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:42 pm

Sarvis wrote:Teflor, shut the fuck up until you can show that parents do not make medical decisions for their infants.

I will if you shut the fuck up when it's clear you have no idea about what you're talking about. But since that never happens.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:52 pm

Actually, the fetus doesn't have a choice and has a hybrid of state and parents making decisions for them.

While the parents are supposed to make decisions in the best interest of minors, apparently, they're also given the option by the state to terminate its life at an arbitrary point in time along the fetus' development.

The reason that the state allows abortion is to protect the privacy between medical providers and their patients. Yes, it's a flawed logic, as it doesn't apply evenly throughout the fetus' term, but people will take what they can get from legislators and judges when it's in their favor.

Many states don't even require that parents raise their own children. Parents that do not want their birthed children can leave them in safe haven shelters where they will not be pursued for responsibility over the child.

I'm surprised that someone paying child support hasn't yet dropped their child off at one of these safe haven thingies when they have the child on visitation rights.

Hilarious? For those with a dark sense of humor - yes.

But seriously, society is all fucked up when it comes to how we deal with live human beings that can't make decisions regarding themselves. While parents can abandon a baby, they cannot abandon child support. While parents are supposed to make decisions in the best interests of children, they can end their lives up to an arbitrary date in the pregnancy. This sad condition is the result of conflict between multiple philosophies in how our government is run - and between the people it is a part of.

So, here's the news. Choice is an illusion - one that human beings will sacrifice the blood of hundreds of millions of fetuses to try to maintain, all while screaming 'it's my body' - because the one they just destroyed couldn't scream.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:03 pm

Interesting postulate on the safe haven stuff as a means to get out of child support. You probably have to have full custody in order to use it. Also, I think all but the south dakota are limited to within a month or 2 of birth (I think even SD's law was changed quickly after people started dropping off 14 yos).

Its about special privileges and rights for Democrat causes vs actual equality where Republicans are concerned. Women are a privileged class as are minorities and the poor. Everyone else, especially white men, are the cause of all their suffering and inequity.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:06 pm

We should go back to trading women like property. Then they'd be equal.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Pril » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:09 pm

I'd give 2 blond's for a brunette and a José Canseco Rookie card!
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:13 pm

How many blondes do I need for an Asian girl?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:33 pm

Right because men having a right to choose means women are property again.

Thank you for clearly illustrating the democratic position on anytime one of their protected classes is inconvenienced they play the fear card. OMG requiring illegals to immigrate legally is just like slavery!!!!!
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Ragorn » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:03 pm

I do enjoy how you call the poor a "priviledged class." You probably typed it with a straight face too :)
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:09 pm

kiryan wrote:Right because men having a right to choose means women are property again.

Thank you for clearly illustrating the democratic position on anytime one of their protected classes is inconvenienced they play the fear card. OMG requiring illegals to immigrate legally is just like slavery!!!!!



You were talking about them being made a privileged class, not just this right to choose bit of yours. We should end that privilege crap and go back to how things were. I'll give you 3 blondes for a half asian?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:55 pm

Admittedly, I'm a little confused by the point you are trying to make, Kiryan.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:12 pm

Women and minorities are clearly a special class and enjoy extra rights.

The poor, I could make an argument for them having de facto special rights.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:35 am

Try creating a all white male ball hockey league and people will scream bloody murder, create an all muslim ball hockey league and its okay, or female, or gay or what ever, by creating minorities and making special rules to prevent predijuice we have in fact created a predijuice against males, especially white males.

Im very curious what laws they have to prevent racism in the middle east and asia, i know europe has similar laws for the most part. Anyone know offhand?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:49 am

kiryan wrote:Women and minorities are clearly a special class and enjoy extra rights.

The poor, I could make an argument for them having de facto special rights.

I don't think the rich need to be jealous yet, Kiryan.
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Sarvis » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:16 am

amena wolfsnarl wrote:Try creating a all white male ball hockey league and people will scream bloody murder, create an all muslim ball hockey league and its okay, or female, or gay or what ever, by creating minorities and making special rules to prevent predijuice we have in fact created a predijuice against males, especially white males.

Im very curious what laws they have to prevent racism in the middle east and asia, i know europe has similar laws for the most part. Anyone know offhand?


Do the middle east and asia actually have a diverse population? I mean, is there anyone for your average suicide bomber to be racist against?
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Pril » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:00 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:create an all muslim ball hockey league and its okay


Actually they would scream terrorism!
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Kifle » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:04 pm

Pril wrote:
amena wolfsnarl wrote:create an all muslim ball hockey league and its okay


Actually they would scream terrorism!


No, they would scream, "alalalalalalaalala!"
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby Turxx » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:29 pm

i think abortion is wrong
i also think that does not give me the right or moral obligation to try to make that choice for someone else
i then too think kiryan is right here, to my understanding of what ive read
i do not think a woman should have a legal right to abort a pregnancy without first informing any and all of the known potential fathers(excluding a previously reported rape, dont come after the fact, "he raped me" as an out) that she is pregnant and is making that choice, and should he choose to try and prove paternity and having paternity proven he should be able to prevent said abortion (with exceptions of serious health complications to the the mother) he would from that point forward assume all financial liability directly and indirectly related to the child.
that should a woman abort a baby and he prove she did there should be civil and criminal liabilty
if she should so choose to have an abortion, and he prevents it via legal means, she has then forfeited any obligation and rights to the child after it is born
the flip side of the coin should also then hold true, if he does not want a baby, he should have a small grace period after being made aware, in which to give up any and all legal right and obligation to the child
and yes i am aware of how complicated that would make things, but right is right and fair is fair
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Re: the whole men have a right to choose too thingy

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:56 pm

When making laws that govern man, on the principle that we should have as few laws as possible, one has to ask what the damage to society banning abortion is trying to prevent.

And then we have to consider what that damage is against other things we have made and are considering making illegal. So what damage is done by aborting a fetus? Plus, how funny would it have been if that woman in 'Children of Men' decided to abort the baby because she felt like she was being treated badly for being different? That would have been my alternate ending.

Ironically, the same questions must be asked on the flip side when making a law guaranteeing a right to an abortion. What damage to society is being prevented by guaranteeing the right to kill a human fetus?

The question of right and wrong is purely academic once we enter into the subject of rule by (gun) law.
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