Introducing Toril 2.0

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Shevarash
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Introducing Toril 2.0

Postby Shevarash » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:10 pm

Sojourners,

First off, I apologize for the long silence on development issues over the past several months. While it may have seemed that nothing was going on on that front, nothing could be further from the truth. I have been working for about 7 months now on a massive update to revolutionize the MUD that we all love. I've been around for a long time, and I can honestly say that this will be the largest and most comprehensive update that the Sojourn family of MUDs has ever seen.

Second, a little bit of explanation. The Sojourn/Toril codebase is an amazing thing - fifteen plus years of development by dozens of coders who come and go, workign on their own little slices of the MUD. While this has obviously led us to a great game, its sometimes amazing that things even work and there is an overwhelming potential for gameplay imbalances as we've continuously tried to fit round pegs in square holes and built ontop of a system that was never designed for some of the things we'd like to do. Also, any of you that have exeperience in software design will recognize how difficult a codebase like this can be just to maintain.

Most importantly, this game needs modernizing and freshing up. Its time to stop living with the age-old annoyances and inconsistencies and do something about it.

So with all that said, here is a little overview of whats coming.

Here's a list of the core systems that have been rewritten, with some of their highlights.


COMBAT ENGINE

- All new hit and damage calculations
- Built-in support for ranged weapons (missile and thrown)
- Expanded Damage Resistance system
- Introduces a system for combat actions (e.g. bash, trip, etc) that allows for highly varied and engaging tactical actions within combat.
- Support for individual weapon types and capabilities (of the weapon).

MAGIC SYSTEM


- Brand-new, from scribing to preparing to casting.
- Standardized damages, cast times, spell slots, prep times.
- Tons of new ways for spells to interact with characters and objects.
- All spells currently in existence will be completely reworked and balanced.
- New options for customizing your spell list, and individual spells

SKILLS

- Completely new system
- Eliminates the redundancy and frustrations found in the old system
- Greatly expanded options for customizing individual characters regardless of their class.

RACE/CLASS SYSTEM

- Rebalanced all player and NPC races.
- Reduced racial class restrictions
- All existing classes dissected and rewritten anew from the ground up.
- New classes!
- No more cookie cutter characters. All characters will be highly customizable. Play the way YOU want.

EXPERIENCE


- Reworked to encourage group play and exploration while reducing the "grind".


There is a TON more to divulge to all of you, but this should serve as a good first introduction to whats in store. I will be posting at least once a week with expanded details on a selected aspect of the new code. We are currently working on porting and adding content to the new setup, as well as testing, tweaking, and the addition of yet more bells and whistles. I don't have a specific implementation date for you all yet, but it will be in the comign months. And there will be a beta test to ensure stability and balance.

And just so we're clear:

There will be no pwipe.

More soon! I welcome any questions or feedback, although for real indepth details fo the new system you'll have to come back and read my weekly posts. I look forward to showing you all this new MUD and hope you're as excited about it as I am.
Last edited by Shevarash on Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Anab » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:21 pm

Yay!! Make sure to keep us posted! You made the Week cut but it was close. ;) Thanx Staff for your time and effort and all that stuff.
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Postby flib » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:24 pm

got one thing to say shev :P WHEN?! sounds amazing :) good work man.
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Postby Kegor » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:29 pm

Very nice Shev. Thank you for your hard work and dedication to the MUD. It is greatly appreciated. :)

Questions:

Will all of this be implemented all at once? Or one portion at a time?

What would be a realistic rough estimate for when the first of these changes would be implemented?
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Postby Lilira » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:48 pm

WOO HOO!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the update!!
Last edited by Lilira on Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Guardias » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:49 pm

Hrrrm this sounds very interesting can't wait to hear more. Good work.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:27 pm

Sounds interesting, but let me ask what's on everyones minds.


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Postby Corth » Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:30 pm

We'll see how it turns out. If you carry through on what you say you are going to do (for once), then it may turn out to be an impressive update. The devil, though, is in the details. I am hopeful, and pessimistic.

And why was this such a big secret?
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Postby Lilira » Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:51 am

Prolly so people wouldn't nag for the release date.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:10 am

FIRST PAGE

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Last edited by Dalar on Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:23 am

I hope you have some sort of new equipment system. Having 2 flags for an item is a poor design for this MUD because everyone concentrates on hp and saves. I'd like to see 3-4 flags for items and have something to increase your damage mitigation.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Thilindel » Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:20 am

Touche!
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:25 am

I must say, it definitely would appear you kept many of the ideas posts in mind when redoing this. Thanks for listening, shev :)
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Postby Corth » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:32 am

Lilira wrote:Prolly so people wouldn't nag for the release date.


Is it ok to nag for the release date now that they have announced it? :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Introducing Toril 2.0

Postby Lilira » Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:22 pm

Shevarash wrote:There is a TON more to divulge to all of you, but this should serve as a good first introduction to whats in store. I will be posting at least once a week with expanded details on a selected aspect of the new code. We are currently working on porting and adding content to the new setup, as well as testing, tweaking, and the addition of yet more bells and whistles. I don't have a specific implementation date for you all yet, but it will be in the comign months. And there will be a beta test to ensure stability and balance.


Corth wrote:Is it ok to nag for the release date now that they have announced it? :)


Gee Corth.. dunno.

Thanks again Shev! Looking forward to the updates.

Back to my regularly scheduled cup of coffee.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:04 pm

Actually, Corth, I'm showing my support for you, albeit in a manner you might not have appreciated... I apologize if you took the joke personally.

If nobody ever demanded progress, then it's a good chance that no progress would ever be made. Of all those who step forward and expect better in this game, you have consistently been one of the most logical and demanding presences, with an opinion respected by a great many. It might not always be liked, but it does carry a great deal of weight, and in my opinion, most of the ideas and debates you generate are crucial to the forward momentum of the game, and are, more often than not, right on the money.

And I was serious... if your squirrel was the squirrel of common sense and the psychology that drives the game-mind of the typical player here, and could give a great deal to the game overall, I'd follow you right down into the garbage incinerator for it.

Brown-streaked nose and all. :wink:
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Postby Jhorr » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:44 pm

Excellent, Smithers ... Exxxxcellent!
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:56 pm

8)

I hope this means getting rid of max_stat equipment and just having open ended stats that mean something.
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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:38 pm

That is beeing addressed.
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Postby Tasan » Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:22 pm

Corth wrote:Homeland merger? Botched.


Pretty sure a lot of what Shev's talking about in this announcement goes along with the continuing work upon Homeland areas which will bring many of the ideas from Homeland here.

You can be pessimistic all you want, the fact that you still care about the community speaks volumes to the fact that you haven't given up hope of something changing.

Is it wrong to be hopeful? Last time I checked that's what made living worth it.

Kudos to finally shining some light Shev, hopefully Cyric can follow suit and give an areas update as well?
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:51 am

Please stay on topic. Flames will not be tolerated here. You are free to disagree with the changes or the manner in which they will be introduced, but you must remain civil to the staff and each other.

I will answer some questions shortly, but for now I'd just like to point out that everything (and a heck of alot more) I posted about is already complete, minus final testing and tweaking.
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Postby Glorishan » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:12 am

Hmm, will pshifting prime from prime work as a global teleport now? Or do I still have to go to smoke to do it?!
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Postby Guardias » Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:22 am

I'm all ears Sheverash just can't wait till you lot put it in. So hurry up already :D
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Postby flib » Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:50 am

nog im quite hopeful.. I just so hope this can bring some new people or old people back heh.. who went to wow.. or some gay crap like that.. I miss having a good who list.. so miss it.. heh.. good work sheverash. please take this in the right way :) implement quick! because I know as one.. I so wanna play toril and feel like the game is evolving again.. changing and bringing people who gave up on the mud or people who heard there was this super cool game that got an amazing update into the game..
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Postby Naled » Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:18 am

Shev

The changes look impressive, looks like most gameplay issues are addressed. Allow me to make one critical comment, or ask one critical question rather as I can't know how things work out:

Looking at the changes they don't seem to address the biggest problem facing this game, the discrepancy between the time needed to play the game, and the time people actually have.

See here or here for recent posts about this.

Actually the new code might even make things worse. Currently we know our classes pretty well, and zones last a predictable amount of time now, too long for most people to do on a regular basis. After the changes this will only get worse, because we have to learn our classes so zones take even longer.

So will we end up with a game that has superior gameplay and brilliant content that nobody plays because we don't have the time for it? Or does Torl 2.0 has a solution for the time issue as well?
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Postby Latreg » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:39 pm

From this and other posts from Shev sounds like game play is going to be a bit faster?

Care to comment?

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Postby Dalar » Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:50 pm

Naled wrote:Shev

The changes look impressive, looks like most gameplay issues are addressed. Allow me to make one critical comment, or ask one critical question rather as I can't know how things work out:

Looking at the changes they don't seem to address the biggest problem facing this game, the discrepancy between the time needed to play the game, and the time people actually have.

See here or here for recent posts about this.

Actually the new code might even make things worse. Currently we know our classes pretty well, and zones last a predictable amount of time now, too long for most people to do on a regular basis. After the changes this will only get worse, because we have to learn our classes so zones take even longer.

So will we end up with a game that has superior gameplay and brilliant content that nobody plays because we don't have the time for it? Or does Torl 2.0 has a solution for the time issue as well?


So you learn and adapt. When people moved from Sojourn 2 to 3, the game's mechanics changed slightly and that's what we all did. Nobody quit because it was too much time to learn. Seriously, it's not going to take months to learn how to play a new game. You'll have people paving the way in a day and telling you what to do if you have too much trouble. I'll defintely be back in some sort of capacity to check out this new game.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Gormal » Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:06 am

If anything this should make us more powerful, Naled. Allowing players to customize their characters allows more optimization, thus making them stronger. These changes will be interesting to say the least. I'd love to see them all come in at once for an open beta.
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Postby hagah » Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:00 am

Gormal wrote:I'd love to see them all come in at once for an open beta.


seconded!
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:03 am

All of these changes will come in at the same time - Toril 2.0 is a complete package in that the features are interdependant on one another. These are all new systems built from the ground up to complement and interact with one another, as opposed to a hodgepodge of features thrown together.

To answer a few other questions briefly:

There are many new options for equipment.

We are putting a special focus on reducing pointless time sinks. However, the 'length' of gaming sessions is often dependant on zones, and that will need to be addressed separately. Personally, I would like to write a few small zones to come in with 2.0, hopefully I will find the time...if not I'm sure someone else will.

The beta may or may not be open - that has not been decided as of yet.

More later.
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Postby Naled » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:46 am

Thanks for the answers!
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Postby flib » Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:50 am

man.. i'm slobberin to get my hands on the new features.. keep up the good work shev.. it seems like people are gonna come back.. well gosh dangit I hope so! 100+ who list ftw!
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:26 am

Question:

Will a halfling warrior become useful? :)
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:06 am

I'm personally hoping that either they fully enforce weight/size per race for eq, or totally disregard, especially weight on weapons. It's silly an ogre can wear the same stuff a halfling can, yet halflings cannot wield most weapons. Nightbringer anyone?
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:54 am

I hate to be the fly in the ointment here, and I'm not trying to be pessimistic, but realistic.

One of the aspects of this game that make it what it is, will also be the main problem associated with pbase growth.

The pbase here is so established and so clique-ish that it's hard for a new player to find their place.

Yes, there will be new classes. Yes, new classes will have to be learned. But unless there is an outright pwipe or eq wipe, it's all pointless. The cliques will form, the new players will be groupless and distressed. The pbase will swell with players coming back from WoW but no new ground breaking growth will happen. We won't see the playerbase above the 100+ mark.

I will be among the returning players, as will others. However, I really see this update as a "bring back recently bored players and give the pbase a boost" rather than a modern "new game".

I still think this is excellent, but I still beleive pay to play is the only way we can really get the pbase up to former glory.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:48 am

If pay to play got me a char with ogre str, drow int, greyelf agi, halfling dex, etc, I'd opt for it in a heartbeat. I'm greedy, but as long as I'm paying..so what :P
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Postby grundar » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:27 am

Thilindel wrote:If pay to play got me a char with ogre str, drow int, greyelf agi, halfling dex, etc, I'd opt for it in a heartbeat. I'm greedy, but as long as I'm paying..so what :P


I would not sign up for that kind of game, it sounds ridiculous. sorry if i seem to be insulting you, i do not mean to.. i just want to point out that general change in direction would royally suck for purists... (i kinda sorta am.. is why i get pissed when i dont see the weaknesses on certain mobs that should have them and or the extra procs some should have according to dnd rules)

sides the mud already accepts donations.. do try thatt, maybe it can buy progress in some form or another.
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Postby Gormal » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:54 am

Pay to play would be a good way to get me to quit. That has ALWAYS been a staple reason to play this game rather than any other MMORPG.
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Postby ssar » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:04 am

You can already Pay-to-play Torilmud HERE.

If they force players to pay to play this game, it will come close to dying.

If they pwipe this mud anytime soon, lots of ppl will bail.

It's a different era we are in now, with a whole range of alternative game types, consoles and technologies - the old text MUD just doesn't have it's original era place in the gaming world any more.

Let's embrace the new code/enhancements and stuff and have a good time with our online friends killing stuff and each other.
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Postby Jhorr » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:55 pm

I agree with Gormal. DikuMUD is to graphical MMORPGs as Linux is to Microsoft. Think about it, there are many parallels: free admission, volunteer coders, not as user-friendly as a graphical interface, etc.

For me, this MUD endorses the original philosophy of the Internet itself, as Linux does, rather than the current commercialized version of the Internet. As such it attracts a loyal, but small, pbase just like Linux does.

The first step toward success is to understand our audience.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:32 pm

Shevarash wrote:We are putting a special focus on reducing pointless time sinks.


watch this thread:
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18476

Keep in mind how long people can stay up. I can barely pull off 7 hours of raiding on weekdays. I don't know how some of you can do 16.5 for Tiamat.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ruxur » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:22 pm

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:Question:

Will a halfling warrior become useful? :)


no, if you want a usefull warrior, play a better warrior class.

halfling warriors should always be inferior to almost any other race of warrior, including human.
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Postby Ruxur » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:26 pm

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:I still think this is excellent, but I still beleive pay to play is the only way we can really get the pbase up to former glory.


You do realise that using the themes we use in this game is allowed on a conditional basis right? No one is allowed to use this mud for profit, i kinda thought everyone knew that. I know shev knows it, and even if he didn't would still be dead set aginst it.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:28 pm

Ruxur wrote:no, if you want a usefull warrior, play a better warrior class.

halfling warriors should always be inferior to almost any other race of warrior, including human.


hrm, why? Halflings have same con as human, better agi/dex than a human/barbarian/dwarf. They're merely not as strong.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:58 pm

Ruxur wrote:
Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:I still think this is excellent, but I still beleive pay to play is the only way we can really get the pbase up to former glory.


You do realise that using the themes we use in this game is allowed on a conditional basis right? No one is allowed to use this mud for profit, i kinda thought everyone knew that. I know shev knows it, and even if he didn't would still be dead set aginst it.


It would take some configuring to allow it without violating forgotten realms copyright, but it's certainly doable. Shevarash is not for it, but I still throw it out there anyway.

What about an eq wipe? With so many new features and a new eq system, it seems like a logical decision.

Maybe with the "encouraged group play" and less grind an eq wipe won't be neccesary, but I'd still love it like it was on Homeland, where everyone had a good time because they all relied on each other and noone was treated inferior because they didn't have item "xx" and someone else did.
There won't be a pwipe but with less racial class restrictions and new classes, plus character customization, I foresee alot of exp being done in the future. :)
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Postby Ruxur » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:07 pm

Thilindel wrote:
Ruxur wrote:no, if you want a usefull warrior, play a better warrior class.

halfling warriors should always be inferior to almost any other race of warrior, including human.


hrm, why? Halflings have same con as human, better agi/dex than a human/barbarian/dwarf. They're merely not as strong.


because halflings are gay, thats why
Cofen group-says 'wtf, why am i missing a cursed khanjari?'

Alendar group-says 'i r rednek i can only afford the monitor i have mud on and the broken monitor under it'

Nonox tells you 'i think someone casted 'power word gay' on pril'

Malacar ASSOC:: 'must... mp...soon...underwear...cringing...at...oncoming...onslaught...'
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Postby Ruxur » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:08 pm

nurpy, its always the people that dont have a ton of gear that they have earned that support an eq whipe.


Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:
Ruxur wrote:
Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:I still think this is excellent, but I still beleive pay to play is the only way we can really get the pbase up to former glory.


You do realise that using the themes we use in this game is allowed on a conditional basis right? No one is allowed to use this mud for profit, i kinda thought everyone knew that. I know shev knows it, and even if he didn't would still be dead set aginst it.


It would take some configuring to allow it without violating forgotten realms copyright, but it's certainly doable. Shevarash is not for it, but I still throw it out there anyway.

What about an eq wipe? With so many new features and a new eq system, it seems like a logical decision.

Maybe with the "encouraged group play" and less grind an eq wipe won't be neccesary, but I'd still love it like it was on Homeland, where everyone had a good time because they all relied on each other and noone was treated inferior because they didn't have item "xx" and someone else did.
There won't be a pwipe but with less racial class restrictions and new classes, plus character customization, I foresee alot of exp being done in the future. :)
Cofen group-says 'wtf, why am i missing a cursed khanjari?'

Alendar group-says 'i r rednek i can only afford the monitor i have mud on and the broken monitor under it'

Nonox tells you 'i think someone casted 'power word gay' on pril'

Malacar ASSOC:: 'must... mp...soon...underwear...cringing...at...oncoming...onslaught...'
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:32 pm

Ruxur wrote:nurpy, its always the people that dont have a ton of gear that they have earned that support an eq whipe.


Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:
Ruxur wrote:
Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:I still think this is excellent, but I still beleive pay to play is the only way we can really get the pbase up to former glory.


You do realise that using the themes we use in this game is allowed on a conditional basis right? No one is allowed to use this mud for profit, i kinda thought everyone knew that. I know shev knows it, and even if he didn't would still be dead set aginst it.


It would take some configuring to allow it without violating forgotten realms copyright, but it's certainly doable. Shevarash is not for it, but I still throw it out there anyway.

What about an eq wipe? With so many new features and a new eq system, it seems like a logical decision.

Maybe with the "encouraged group play" and less grind an eq wipe won't be neccesary, but I'd still love it like it was on Homeland, where everyone had a good time because they all relied on each other and noone was treated inferior because they didn't have item "xx" and someone else did.
There won't be a pwipe but with less racial class restrictions and new classes, plus character customization, I foresee alot of exp being done in the future. :)


wrong. i've supported it for quite a long time even when I was active. why? there's too much equipment in game after all the changes to areas. remember when tbeast and 1k headband would load every other boot?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:33 pm

Someone IM me when the changes go in or updated. Seeya in 3 months.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Tasan » Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:14 pm

Ruxur wrote:nurpy, its always the people that dont have a ton of gear that they have earned that support an eq whipe.


I'm pro eq-wipe. I don't think it would be good to start everyone off at 0 however... there needs to be some sort of reward for having been here.
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