Toril 2.0: Weapons & Armor Basics

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Toril 2.0: Weapons & Armor Basics

Postby Shevarash » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:07 pm

Toril 2.0: Weapons & Armor Basics

One of the overall goals of the entire Toril 2.0 project is to introduce an ordered system that is easily balanced with all aspects of gameplay. One of the glaring problems in the current setup is the randomness in the effectiveness of weapons and armor. Armor Class is all over the place, weapon dice are random and escalate with every new zone, meanwhile the actual type of a weapon is determined only by wheteher it slashes, bludgeons, or pierces.

Also, the byzantine system of class and alignment restrictions further complicates everything. The end result is a huge mess that is impossible to balance and results in very little variety overall as chasing the most dice-inflated weapon or AC-boosted armor is always the best choice.

Now - forget all that. Weapons and Armor have all been standardized and categorized. Class and Alignment restrictions have been all but removed. Your ability to use a piece of armor or a specific weapon is now dependant on the choices you make for your character, not your alignment or your class choice. Of course, highly specialized magical items can still only function for certain classes, alignments, or races. These items are the exception though, not the norm.

There will be MUCH more detail on the particulars of using weapons and armor and how that relates to your class and character choices, but for this update I will be focusing on the attributes of the items themselves.

Weapon Basics

1) Weapon Types

Every weapon is now classified as a specific weapon type. Examples would include: longsword, short sword, battleaxe, double battleaxe, longbow, flail, morningstar, maul, greatsword, nunchaku, siangham, kukri, etc. There are over 90 weapon types currently defined, and more can easily be added if needed. A weapon's type determines all of the primary attributes:

2) Wield Type

Weapons can be designated as: Light Weapon, One-Handed Weapon, Two-Handed Weapon, Double Weapon, Missile Weapon, or Thrown Weapon.

Light Weapons can easily be wielded in the offhand, whereas One-Handed weapons can also be wielded there, but at a greater penalty.

Two-Handed weapons require two hands to wield and in general do more damage and grant a higher strength bonus. Double weapons are also wielded with both hands - but they grant an extra attack.

Missile weapons include bows, crossbows, slings, blowpipes, etc. Thrown weapons are anything from throwing daggers to darts to throwing axes.

3) Damage Dice

A weapon's damage dice is determined by its type. Every longsword, for example, does the same base damage dice as every other longsword. This may seem limiting at first, but in practice it allows for great variety within weapon types - and there ARE ways to increase your weapon's damage through both your character, spells, weapon enchantments...

4) Critical Threat Range

Every weapon hs a different "range" for determining critical hits. A weapon with a higher Threat Range is more likely to cause a critical than one with a lower Threat Range. A standard threat range is around 5% - with some weapons approaching 15%, and others dropping even lower.

Some lighter weapons that don't seem to do much damage if you only look at their damage dice, but when you factor in their increased ability to strike at vital areas and cause critical hits the picture becomes clearer.

5) Critical Hit Modifier

In addition to the Threat Range, weapons also have a modifier to the critical hit damage itself. It starts at 2x and can increase up to 5x or even higher. Weapons with a high threat range tend to cause criticals more often, with a lower modifier - wheras weapons that crit infrequently tend to do more damage on the crit. Its not always a wash though - there are many weapon types and their critical hit effectiveness is an important consideration when picking what type to use.

6) Reach

Some weapons - such as polearms or spiked chains - have an extended reach over regular weapons, and thus can be used in special combat maneuvers or grant an advantage in such maneuvers. For instance, a spiked chain can be used to trip an opponent....more on all that later.

Armor Basics

1) Armor Type

Armor is all classfied and standardized by its type. There are roughly 20 types currently defined, including: leather armor, chain armor, ringmail, platemail, half-plate, studded leather, hide armor, etc. An armor's type defines its basic attributes, which will be covered below. Also, only the equipment slots that reflect protective areas are considered to be "armor", such as : on body, arms, legs, head, neck, wrists, waist, etc. Slots such as fingers and ears and eyes do not contribute to your armor class physically - although they can have magical effects that increase your AC. The slots that do affect your armor class and other attributes do so depnding on the relative size of that slot - for instance, on body armor is worth the most AC, whereas your left wrist contributes much less to your AC.

2) Armor Bonus

Every armor type has a different armor bonus, which is the amount that that piece of armor contributes to your AC. The armor bonus is dependant on the type of armor AND the slot that the piece of armor fits over. For instance, a platemail breastplate worn on body is worth more AC then a platemail gauntlet worn on your hands.

3) Dexterity Limit

Each armor type has a Dexterity Limit - this limits the amount of Dexterity Bonus you can add to your Armor Class. In general, the heavier armor types restrict your movement and make you less able to dodge a blow, but mroe likely to block it with your armor.

4) Armor Check Penalty

The Armor Check Penalty associated with certain types of heavy armor is essentially a negative modifier applied to any skill check that requires fluidity of movement. For example, a rogue wearing platemail and attempting to sneak is going to take major penalties. In general, the light armors feature little or no armor check penalties, while the medium and heavier armor types can be very restrictive.

5) Arcane Spellcasting Failure

Armor restricts a mage's ability to perform the gestures required to cast spells. The lightest armors feature a low Failure chance - around 5%, but the heavier armors can go all the way up to an 80% failure rate or higher. In this way it is possible for a mage to wear armor for extra protection, but their spells are less liekly to succeed.

In Conclusion

At first glance, it may seem that standardizing weapon dice and armor AC will result in less variety and less choices to make. However, these things only reflect the basic starting points of every kind of weapon and armor. Your characters will be more or less proficient with specific weapon and armor types depending on the class you play and the choices YOU make for your character. These choices can alter everything from the base damage done with a weapon to the arcane spellcasting failure given by an armor and everything inbetween.

There is a huge amount of variety possible with these new systems, and will allow you to play the kind of character you envision. If you want to be a mage wearing chainmail and wielding a greatsword - you can do that. A Warrior with nunchuks and mixed leather and hide armors? Sure. The possiblities are near endless.

Also, weapons and armor can be upgraded with magical enchantments that boost their abilities in a wide range of areas. Look for details about enchantments in a later post.
Last edited by Shevarash on Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:55 pm

Posting in a legendary thread.

Now, my actual question, and this may very well determine how interested I am in taking part in this system. Simply put, are you going to make the stats public? Will we know the weapon dice and crit range for a longsword vs. a kukri, or do we have to guess?

It's my opinion that the time of hiding information from players is over. I have a Player's Handbook that tells me that a Rapier does less damage than a Longsword, but crits more often. That information helps me choose the weapon most appropriate to my playstyle. If I didn't have that information, and I had to choose between a rapier, a longsword, a light pick, a nunchaku, and a heavy mace... well shit, might as well just pick the one with the best ansi, right?
Last edited by Ragorn on Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:55 pm

Ragorn wrote:Posting in a legendary thread.


QFT
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hmm

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:12 pm

afk, masturbating with sandpaper in extasy


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Postby Disoputlip » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:21 pm

can you elaborate on races, sizes, and how this affect stuff.
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:22 pm

Ragorn wrote:Posting in a legendary thread.

Now, my actual question, and this may very well determine how interested I am in taking part in this system. Simply put, are you going to make the stats public? Will we know the weapon dice and crit range for a longsword vs. a kukri, or do we have to guess?


There will be no information hiding. In addition to a list of the weapons and armors publically available, you will be able to see exactly how whatever you're wearing or wielding affects you in-game on the new and improved character record sheet.

We want you to have the information you need to make informed choices because, frankly...its fun and engaging to make those decisions about your character and their equipment.
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:25 pm

Disoputlip wrote:can you elaborate on races, sizes, and how this affect stuff.


Soon. :)
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Re: Toril 2.0: Weapons & Armor Basics

Postby Thilindel » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:06 pm

Shevarash wrote:Light Weapons can easily be wielded in the offhand, whereas One-Handed weapons can also be wielded there, but at a greater penalty.

Two-Handed weapons require two hands to wield and in general do more damage and grant a higher strength bonus. Double weapons are also wielded with both hands - but they grant an extra attack.


Does this restrict ogres still? Ogres gonna get penalty for off-handing a one-hander since it's paperweight to them? Long ago I remember a thread dealing with ogres and 2h weapons. They gonna dual 2h'ers, etc?

Shevarash wrote:Missile weapons include bows, crossbows, slings, blowpipes, etc. Thrown weapons are anything from throwing daggers to darts to throwing axes.


Wondering if races with current racial extra (melee) attacks will gain extra attacks with missiles as well?

BTW, I sure hope others can appreciate just how much effort you (and others?) must have put into this 2.0!
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Postby Gormal » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:17 pm

Shevarash wrote:There will be no information hiding. In addition to a list of the weapons and armors publically available, you will be able to see exactly how whatever you're wearing or wielding affects you in-game on the new and improved character record sheet.

We want you to have the information you need to make informed choices because, frankly...its fun and engaging to make those decisions about your character and their equipment.


I think what hobag meant was can we post stats on the bbs finally? Or host our own Toril 2.0 Prima strategy guides?
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:56 am

8)

I like the whole 3.0-3.5 DnD direction this is taking. Interest growing!
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Postby Cirath » Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:49 am

*sigh* Now I might actually have to log in and play again. Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water...
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Postby Latreg » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:37 am

so it appears there will be more choices for missle type weapons for the ranger classes?

I can see this has taken a huge amount of work and time all I can say is, holy cow! This does add a new dimension of ac vs casting success etc, very interesting in deed.
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Postby Arcelian » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:57 am

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Postby Arcelian » Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:02 am

I *really* like the idea behind this "Its not the weapon thats important, its the character."

If Strength is the determining factor for melee attacks I see a huge influx of ogre players, and if the races are opened up I want ro re-roll as a barb anti.
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character size in regards to hitting and dodging.

Postby Boboloppe » Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:37 am

if Toril 2.0 will have a strong comparison to D&D 3.0\3.5 and so far is seems to

all creatures and players will be broken down into a set number of size groups I'll use 9 sizes for simplicity in this explanation. 1 is the smallest 9 is the largest.

lets say you are a human and your size is 5 and that says you are between 4 and 8 feet tall and 60-500 pounds now logic says that if you want to attack something and it is larger than you it will be easier to hit. and inturn hitting something far smaller than you will be harder.

this may be implemented by a sistem that gives bonuses or penalties to your hitroll depending on the size of your target and it seems likely the same would apply for mobs
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:38 am

Gormal wrote:I think what hobag meant was can we post stats on the bbs finally? Or host our own Toril 2.0 Prima strategy guides?


Actually dicknose, Shev answered my question exactly. I just wanted to know if I was going to have to pay 1500p in identify scrolls just to figure out what the fuck the new weapons did.
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Postby Justaghost » Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:40 am

Arcelian wrote:I *really* like the idea behind this "Its not the weapon thats important, its the character."

If Strength is the determining factor for melee attacks I see a huge influx of ogre players, and if the races are opened up I want ro re-roll as a barb anti.


In the combat post there was a very important phrase, something along the lines of: "...<b>most</b> melee weapons will depend on strength."

To me that sounds like some weapons will be dex based, so let's just hope they get the right ones. *coughshortswordscough*
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Postby Arcelian » Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:55 am

Justaghost wrote:
Arcelian wrote:I *really* like the idea behind this "Its not the weapon thats important, its the character."

If Strength is the determining factor for melee attacks I see a huge influx of ogre players, and if the races are opened up I want ro re-roll as a barb anti.


In the combat post there was a very important phrase, something along the lines of: "...<b>most</b> melee weapons will depend on strength."

To me that sounds like some weapons will be dex based, so let's just hope they get the right ones. *coughshortswordscough*


I'm pretty sure it won't be strength alone......it'll be balanced out in Shevs master plan.
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Postby Glorishan » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:31 am

Khanjari gonna mess everything up!
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Postby Naled » Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:14 am

Does this mean all eq will have to be adjusted to the new situation? Or does all eq simply get some new flags based on their type?
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Postby Demuladon » Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:25 am

Shev wrote:the heavier armor types restrict your movement and make you less able to dodge a blow, but more likely to block it with your armor


Shev wrote:]lightest armors feature a low Failure chance - around 5%, but the heavier armors can go all the way up to an 80% failure rate or higher


Awsome changes.

Will character strength mitigate these effects?
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Postby Demuladon » Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:25 am

ps. Will certain items still be stated with ANTI-EVILRACE and ANTI-GOODRACE?
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Postby Lilira » Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:56 pm

Bring on the Mithral Shirts and rapiers babee!!!

Seriously guys, if you wanna check out the basics with regards to size mods, ACPs and stuff, check out the D&D 3.0/3.5 rules. They're around on the net somewhere.

Shev, this sounds lovely!!!

Will there be attacks of opp and stuff (be interesting to see how that translates mud-wise), or will it be covered in another thread??
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There will be no information hiding.

Postby Thrand » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:01 pm

Does this mean that !id is not a part of toril 2.0?

If it does mean that any reason why you can't remove !id now?

And if it doesnt mean !id any more then what do you mean by
no information hiding ?

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Postby Eilistraee » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:07 pm

I don't know if No-ID will be removed with 2.0. But what Shevarash meant is that you will know that a long sword will cause, for instance 1d8 damage and have a 10 percent chance of a critical causing double damage. A greataxe will do 1d12 damage and have a 5 percent chance of a critical causing triple damage.

Those numbers are hypothetical, but the serve to demonstrate the point.
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Postby Botef » Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:31 pm

Shevarash wrote:
We want you to have the information you need to make informed choices because, frankly...its fun and engaging to make those decisions about your character and their equipment.


Best statement yet. Part of the fun for me has always been figuring out what is 'best' for a particluar situation, and with the way things are currently guessing and speculation is about as close as you can get. The prospect of different weapons/armor/equipment being 'better' on a scenario to scenario basis rather than finding and wearing "the best" piece of eq is exactly what we have been lacking in terms of progression.

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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:28 pm

I take it the old skills like 1h slashing will be trashed and any Level 50 warrior with the same equipment will hit just as hard?
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Postby flib » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:08 am

im sure this will be discussed later but i'm wondering about exp tables a bit. the idea that a rogue gets more xp than an invoker or enchanter killing the same mob. justa wonderin :)
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Postby selerial » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:49 pm

Sounds pretty interesting so far. Definitely curious to see what other sort of changes are gonna be implemented (still waiting for the spellcasting updates, being largely a caster player).
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Postby Sarell » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:56 pm

I was wondering the same thing as Teflor. Will skills that people have invested hundreds of hours into be better than another level 50s who have invested nothing? There seems to be a lot of talk about customising and choosing for your character, but not alot about actually using your character to improve it. Would be sad if you just hit DS exp until 50 then set your characters skills.
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Postby Cirath » Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:39 pm

Sarell wrote:Will skills that people have invested hundreds of hours into be better than another level 50s who have invested nothing?


The same question was raised (and discussed briefly) here by Mirlantharn.
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Postby muzishun » Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:12 pm

With the new standardised weapon/armor/equipment system and the new feat system, will there be any item creation feats allowed in 2.0? I could see a lot of use for mages to take item creation feats and start cranking out customized magic weapons, armor, potions, oils, etc.
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Postby Disoputlip » Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:23 pm

muzishun wrote:... will there be any item creation feats allowed in 2.0? ...


Yes. I am too lazy to find where, but it was mentioned somewhere. At least if trade skills is what you are asking for
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:41 pm

Correction - there has been no official information regarding trade skills or item creation feats for Toril 2.0 thus far. At this time we are focusing on core gameplay and content, although this does not preclude a future announcement about trading and item creation.
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Postby flib » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:16 pm

gotta love god time though. once a week, once every two week announcements have turned to once or bimonthly. whatever. i'll keep playing wow. waiting for this to be imp'd.. ive been logging in occasionaly to check the site. and see what's up with people and stuff. but besides that shrug. just wish they could throw partial implementations so players could get some idea of what to expect. it's great to talk about on here. (not very often.. mind you) but it'd be alot nicer for the players to get a couple of the ideas implemented so they could play around with em.. I think people would notice.. whatever though. that's just my 2 cents, ya. full unveiling. = supercoolerific. but what would you rather have :P partials where you at least get the flavor of the new game in your grubby mouths or just nothing. well at the moment at least. ok. im done :P see ya around. sparingly :P
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Postby Cirath » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:05 am

flib wrote:full unveiling. = supercoolerific. but what would you rather have :P partials where you at least get the flavor of the new game in your grubby mouths or just nothing. well at the moment at least. ok. im done :P see ya around. sparingly :P


I'd rather have the complete game, tested and working properly, than a system that is even more patchworked and slipshod than what already exists. There is a reason they say patience is a virtue.
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Postby flib » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:06 am

well.. just because it's only a partial.. doesnt mean it wouldnt be tested and stuff.. of course it would be tested.. i just wanna try one of the new features out heh i think that'd be an interesting way to do it.. a gradual change into the new system that way people arent completely like uhh.. well what do i do here.. whatever. i'll be lurking :)

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