Toril 2.0: Feats

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Toril 2.0: Feats

Postby Shevarash » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:05 pm

Toril 2.0: Feats


What are feats?


A feat is a special feature that either gives your character a new ability or improves one that he or she already has. While your character's class is the basic starting point for your abilities, feats help you expand the limits of your class, customize your character, and increase your power. Feats do not have "ranks" like a skill - you either have a feat or you do not.

Feats are highly varied and can confer many different types of advantages. A feat could simply make you a bit more agile, or it could provide a new combat attack, change the nature of a spell, or grant a bonus on saving throws against a particular type of attack. Feats also determine your proficiency with some sorts of equipment, such as weapons, shields, and armor.


Acquiring Feats


Characters receive a number of "slots" for feats as they progress in level, and may use those slots to pick any feat that they qualify for. Some feats have prerequisites which must be met in order to select the feat, while others are open to any and all. If a feat has a prerequisite, your character must have the indicated ability score, feat, skill, attack bonus, or other attribute in order to pick that feat. Many feats use other feats as prerequisites, essentially creating a chain of feats that unlock more and more abilities as you progress up the chain. Additionally, some classes receive bonus feat slots that they may use to select specific types of feats.


Types of Feats



Weapon/Armor Proficiency Feats -


Anyone can pick up and use a sword, or strap on a suit of platemail - but in order to use that item effectively, a character will need to be proficient in its use.

Weapons are categorized into three types - Simple (club, staff, dagger), Martial (longsword, battleaxe, flail), or Exotic (nunchaku, whip, double-bladed sword). Some classes come with basic proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, while other classes will need to select feats to acquire proficiency in their chosen weapon type. Exotic weapons always require a feat for profiency, no matter the class. Using a weapon that you are not proficient with will incur a heavy penalty on your attack roll. If you already have a high attack roll, using a weapon you are not proficient with is certainly possible, but far from optimal.

Armor is split up into three types - Heavy, Medium, and Light. Many classes come with some or all of those proficiencies, and other classes will need to select a feat to be proficient in that armor type. Using armor that you are not proficient with causes severe penalties to your movement, attacking, and casting.

Basic proficiency with weapons and armor simply removes the penalty that would otherwise be incurred. However, your character can become more skilled with their weapons and armor by picking further feats that build upon the proficiencies, such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery, etc. You can create your character to be a jack of all trades capable of wielding many weapons effectively, or devote them to becoming a grand master in one particular type of weapon - or anything inbetween.

Combat Feats

Combat feats are any feat that directly affects your character in combat. It can be a feat that grants a new type of attack (Power Attack), a special effect in combat (Cleave), or a bonus to an existing attack (Precise Shot, Improved Trip). There is a large number of combat feats with various prerequisite chains giving your character tremendous variety in fine-tuning their combat prowess. There will be more information abotu combat feats in subsequent posts that address related issues.

General Feats

This is the catch-all category where a large number of feats reside. General feats can affect your character in many, many ways - such as providing a bonus to a certain skill or attack, add hitpoints to your character, improve saving throws in a variety of ways, grant new abilities to your character, and much, much more.

Metamagic Feats

Metamagic feats allow a spellcaster to cast spells in slightly different ways. For example, metamagic feats can allow a spellcaster to cast a spell silently (Silent Spell), increase a spell's damage or healing (Empower Spell), or widen a spell's radius of effect (Widen Spell). Of course, casting a spell in such unusual ways requires a little more effort than usual, so applying a metamagic feat to a spell will increase it's spell circle. Once a caster picks a metamagic feat they may apply it to any spell they know during spell preparation at the cost of taking up a higher circle spell slot. Metamagic feats are always used on a spell-by-spell basis - you may prepare a spell either with or without the metamagic feats you know at any time - you can even prepare several different versions of one spell, taking up multiple circles.

Metamagic feats are to spellcasters what combat feats are to hitters - they allow a caster to manipulate their spells on the fly and allow for vastly expanded tactical opportunities and decision-making. There will be more information on metamagic feats on a subsequent post which will cover the new Magic/Spells system.

In Conclusion

The Feat system in Toril 2.0 is a major part of the new game, and the most obvious source of character customization. Feat selection can create radically different characters of the same class, both in what those characters can do and how they do it. As always, there will be yet more ifnormation about feats in the near future.

Any questions?
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Postby Arcelian » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:41 am

I like it.
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Re: Toril 2.0: Feats

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:15 am

Shevarash wrote:Any questions?


What's the release date? :P

Sounds good though, though I'm hoping you guys fix some of the things I don't like in 3.5E.


Ok, actual Feats questions:

Will there be class specific feats?

Will certain classes earn certain feats without having to "buy" them? For instance Monks getting Cleave at level 1?

How will feats be dealt with in cases of level loss? Lose the feat and have to buy it back again? Could you hten chose a different feat?
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:30 am

So is a feat gained permanently?

In other words, say a player chooses a feat for the character early in 2.0, but as the game progresses and aspects of play are tweaked here and there, the balance of power shifts, making skills that were once highly sought after second to the new flavor of the day.

We've watched players re-roll characters time and again to make the best of certain situations in the game. The most blatant two that come to mind are the evil female human rogue and anybody who re-rolled with the cheesy roller. Is this going to be another scenario like those? Will those who choose to stick to their main find themselves outdated when things change, stuck with potentially obsolete skills?
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Re: Toril 2.0: Feats

Postby Shevarash » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:53 am

Sarvis wrote:
Sounds good though, though I'm hoping you guys fix some of the things I don't like in 3.5E.



Such as?

Sarvis wrote:
Will there be class specific feats?



Yes.

Sarvis wrote:
Will certain classes earn certain feats without having to "buy" them? For instance Monks getting Cleave at level 1?



Yes, although that's an odd example. :)

Sarvis wrote:How will feats be dealt with in cases of level loss? Lose the feat and have to buy it back again? Could you hten chose a different feat?


You will not lose your feats upon level loss. Re-levelling will not grant you another feat slot.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:55 am

Ashiwi wrote:So is a feat gained permanently?

In other words, say a player chooses a feat for the character early in 2.0, but as the game progresses and aspects of play are tweaked here and there, the balance of power shifts, making skills that were once highly sought after second to the new flavor of the day.



I realize this and have built in a system to allow players to exchange their feats and other custom options. There will be nothing preventing you from staying current with all the latest updates. Details to follow, of course. :)
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Re: Toril 2.0: Feats

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:12 am

Shevarash wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Sounds good though, though I'm hoping you guys fix some of the things I don't like in 3.5E.


Such as?


For instance needing different materials of weapons to hit different enemies, such taht a warrior could easily find himself carrying around like 12 swords just so he's covered against all types of enemy.

Another thing is how they handled the ranger. I have to admit that the 3.5 ranger is more playable than the 3E one, but I think they strayed from the theme even further and basically turned rangers into a Scout class rather than a Nature Warrior class. (I've always considered Rangers to be the Druidic equivalent of Paladins, so I don't see why they'd be wilderness rogues...)

Another big thing is that there is an imbalance between dex based and str based fighters. Str based fighters have an advantage, in that they need to maintain fewer stats, have more killing power and don't have to spend feats to do their thing. A dex based fighter needs to buy weapon finesse, so a feat is burned just to keep their hitroll decent, then STILL has to maintain at least a 14 str or he's doing so little damage it doesn't matter if he hits. Throw them up against each other and the numbers show the str fighter winning, and throw them up against damage resistant monsters and the dex warrior will be lucky to even cause damage!

Err... sorry, that's a bit of a rant from the Bioware boards... heh.


Sarvis wrote:
Will certain classes earn certain feats without having to "buy" them? For instance Monks getting Cleave at level 1?



Yes, although that's an odd example. :)


Not really, in 3E Monks start with Cleave at level 1. Or at least they do in NWN...


So release date?
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:45 am

I understand what you're saying, but I must point out that this is neither 3E, 3.5, or NWN. As far as I know, Monks do not start with Cleave in any published version of the D&D game system. I'm pointing this out just to illustrate that many of the things you may know about d20 or its various implementations do not neccessarily apply here.

Many aspects of Toril 2.0 are based on the d20 gaming system, but it is far from a straight implementation of that system.
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:07 am

8)

Please say you're ditching the silly old saving system for the 3.0/3.5 DnD saving throw system.
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Re: Toril 2.0: Feats

Postby Gormal » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:22 am

Shevarash wrote:(Beautiful Sarvis Mockery)


Hahahahahaha
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Postby Cirath » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:09 am

Sarvis wrote:Not really, in 3E Monks start with Cleave at level 1. Or at least they do in NWN...


Every time you reference Neverwinter Nights in a D&D rules discussion, a baby nerd dies.

But seriously, with the addition of feats like power attack, cleave and others (like, perhaps whirlwind attack), will warriors (and other "tank" types) finally be able to use their weapons to some effect, or will they still just be meatshields?

Also, some feats (and combat manuvers) take possitioning into account pretty heavily in D&D, such as improved bull rush, spring attack, and shot on the run. Does this mean that there will be some sort of possitioning system in combat? Will it simply take room size into account and not let you do certain manuvers in smaller areas? Will these feats even exist? Or will there be some other answer that I haven't considered yet?
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:42 am

Yes, the ability to untrain is definitly a must in these kinds of systems.
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Postby Latreg » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:39 pm

everyone needs to remember the new code is based on dnd 3.x and not a carbon copy of.

more of suggestion than a question, but can the feats and perhaps the general character creation instructions be put in a txt format so we can print it and decide how to create our characters off line? this will help to see what needs pre reqs etc.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:54 pm

Can we see some of the feats now?

*waits impatiently*
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Postby Dranix/Straxin » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:04 pm

Just curious, but I was wondering if you were planning on putting in the Daylight Adaptation feat? I know the evil-race players would rejoice to have it, but would kinda take away some of the "disadvantage" that they're supposed to start out with because of the power of the races.
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:27 pm

Sarvis wrote:Not really, in 3E Monks start with Cleave at level 1. Or at least they do in NWN...


Actually.. Monks start with a "bonus feat" and NWN just automatically assigns cleave. (Pulls out her 3.5PHB and nerd glasses.) Monks in the book start with "Flurry of blows, Unarmed strike and a bonus feat". Games have a tendency to try and take the thinking out of things.


Sarvis wrote:Can we see some of the feats now?

*waits impatiently*


Take a look here. I found this link, and just did a quick scan. Most of the feats on this link look like ones straight out of the 3.5 manual. I know Shev said "I understand what you're saying, but I must point out that this is neither 3E, 3.5, or NWN." But this link will give you an idea of what feats can do. :-)
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:38 pm

Dranix/Straxin wrote:Just curious, but I was wondering if you were planning on putting in the Daylight Adaptation feat? I know the evil-race players would rejoice to have it, but would kinda take away some of the "disadvantage" that they're supposed to start out with because of the power of the races.


I don't see why it shouldn't be an option... A warrior would have to choose between a martial skill and that one. Same with the other classes. To do so would actually put them at a disadvantage compared to other warriors who have tossed that extra feat slot into something with regards to their class. Technically surface drow would be able to see better in the sun than Menzo drow, illithids or duergar anyway.

What I would like to know is if there will be regional feats permitted a la Forgotten Realms? If you're from CP you can take a feat called "Harem Trained" (cut me some slack, its the first one I remembered *laugh*) "Headlong Rush" is an orc/half-orc feat only. "Highborn Drow" you guessed it.. drow only.

Just curious. :-)
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Postby Vigis » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:46 pm

I foresee Battleragers :)
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Postby Latreg » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:15 pm

Lilira are the feats from that link the same as the dnd 3.x?

looks like that list can be easily printed, once we know what ones will be used ;)

Please handicap Teba with 2 left feats
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:16 pm

Lilira wrote:Actually.. Monks start with a "bonus feat" and NWN just automatically assigns cleave. (Pulls out her 3.5PHB and nerd glasses.) Monks in the book start with "Flurry of blows, Unarmed strike and a bonus feat". Games have a tendency to try and take the thinking out of things.


To be entirely accurate, Monks are given "bonus feats" at 1st, 2nd, and 6th level, but at each of those levels you only have two options to pick from. At first, you can take Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist (almost all Monks choose Stunning Fist). At 2nd, you can choose Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows, and at 6th you get either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip.

Why Bioware chose to give them Cleave at level 1 I'll never know.

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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:18 pm

Latreg wrote:Lilira are the feats from that link the same as the dnd 3.x?


Yes, that page is actually maintained by Wizards of the Coast, and is considered canon. The SRD is actually more accurate/clear than the Player's Handbook in some cases, because they can print errata in the SRD.

www.d20srd.org

It's not a complete list of rules, but it's a good reference for D&D players.
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Postby Arcelian » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:52 pm

Having never played any form of D&D I feel so ignorant around everyone else here :P

Looks good though from my limited POV.
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Postby muzishun » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:36 am

Ragorn wrote:
Latreg wrote:Lilira are the feats from that link the same as the dnd 3.x?


Yes, that page is actually maintained by Wizards of the Coast, and is considered canon. The SRD is actually more accurate/clear than the Player's Handbook in some cases, because they can print errata in the SRD.

www.d20srd.org

It's not a complete list of rules, but it's a good reference for D&D players.

Actually, the page is maintained by an individual, but all of the material comes from the canon D&D SRD (System Reference Document) that is published by WotC. Their version is simple text, and the individual has done the enormous service of hyperlinking and classifying the whole thing. He's always updating it as Wizards publishes more things and releases them into the open gaming realm. It's on my top three as far as resources for games goes... even ahead of the wizards.com site itself.
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Postby Disoputlip » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:06 am

Let me start off by saing I think feats is a good idea. But the downside is more specialized.

Let me give a theoretical example: Only players with banage in 2.0 are clerics, but they have "group bandage". (example is unrealistic, but shows my point).

Those players that knew how to utilize all their skills will have to loose a few of them, in order to gain some l33t specialization.

I just hope the system doesn't hurt those that wants to have many different skills too badly.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:53 pm

Feats are not skills, nor do they replace skills entirely. I understand your concern and I believe it will be addressed in a subsequent post.
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Postby Guardias » Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:15 am

I'm really liking the path your on with this feat setup. The fact that your allowing retraining will make the system fluid and adaptable which is always good. I only see one problem with feats on a mud and that is over specialization and as such making it harder to zone effectively, but I realize that if your retraining system is constantly in effect then this could actually lead to greater adaptability and zoning potential.


– Going back a ways I'd like to address the person who said dexterity fighters were overall weaker than strength ones. *yes I realize I'm going off topic a bit* Dexterity fighters burn one extra feat yes, but they also have higher ac and if they choose right they will have a weapon that can critical more often. They also have the ability to ignore strength completely and focus all on dexterity giving them greater hit potential and even higher ac. A strength fighter will most likely use that same feat to get power attack and as such deal more damage. He might even choose a high critical weapon such as a scimitar, but here is the thing he can attack or power attack; either way he’ll have less chance to hit than the dexterity fighter because he had to invest in another ability to protect himself. To put it bluntly a dexterity fighter can get great offense and defense with one attribute whereas as strength fighter has to split between strength and dexterity or strength and constitution just to cover his offense and his defense.–

–Off topic again but I HAVE to respond to this one. Rangers are the servants of nature, stealthy fighters who protect the natural world from those who would abuse it. Rangers are pretty much druids with martial abilities, or one could say warriors given the power of nature to better protect it. Paladins are protectors of the downtrodden and the law, they answer not to nature but to gods who demand constant vigilance against evil and its eradication. Rangers believe in a balance just as strongly as do druids.–


Oh yeah back to the topic; I'm a AD&D nerd yes and this is the best site I've found for a selection of feats. Each feat is categorized by type and sourcebook. I'll place the website below *to the moderators if this is against some rule well just delete the link not my post :P*

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml
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Postby Cirath » Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:52 am

Guardias wrote:–Off topic again but I HAVE to respond to this one. Rangers are the servants of nature, stealthy fighters who protect the natural world from those who would abuse it. Rangers are pretty much druids with martial abilities, or one could say warriors given the power of nature to better protect it. Paladins are protectors of the downtrodden and the law, they answer not to nature but to gods who demand constant vigilance against evil and its eradication. Rangers believe in a balance just as strongly as do druids.–


Off topic or not, I have to chime in on this. Ranger can be played as the "servants of nature, stealthy fighters who protect the natural world from those who would abuse it." They could also be simple woodsmen, who hunt, gather, and live off the land by choice. Or they could be freelance guides through wilderness. They could also be scouts, or unafilliated warriors who disdain civilization, or a dozen other things. If they have only one possible role to fill, then couldn't the same be said for any other class?

As for them believing in balance as strongly as druids. Well, if that were so, then why have they never, at any point in any incarnation of the game had the same alignment restrictions as druids?
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:44 pm

Guardias wrote:– Going back a ways I'd like to address the person who said dexterity fighters were overall weaker than strength ones. *yes I realize I'm going off topic a bit* Dexterity fighters burn one extra feat yes, but they also have higher ac and if they choose right they will have a weapon that can critical more often. They also have the ability to ignore strength completely and focus all on dexterity giving them greater hit potential and even higher ac.


Nope. Wrong on pretty much every point actually. A dex based fighter HAS to take str or he doesn't do enough damage, since weapon finesse only lets you use your dex bonus for the To Hit calculation. He does have more AC, but only by 2 (if I remember correctly) points while the str based fighter is vastly outdamaging him. Yes, "if he chooses the right weapon" does give him more crits... but then not only are you at a disadvantage, and hoping for crits to do any damage at all... but you are almost forced to use a rapier or burn another feat for kukri.

I ran the numbers once for an argument on the NWN boards and in combat the str fighter should win most often. The reason for this is that even with the crits the dex based fighter simply needs to make several more hits than the str based fighter and the AC doesn't reflect that difference enough.

Now, they are _supposed_ to be compensated by several other things... like the multitude of dex based skills, and having better movement rates on the battlefield and such. However in a game like NWN, or more importantly like Torilmud, those things are generally of little or no value... especially if you aren't concentrating on them anyway. The extra couple of points in sneak isn't going to mean a thing to you unless you're training sneak anyway.
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Postby Cirath » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:22 pm

Sarvis wrote:but you are almost forced to use a rapier or burn another feat for kukri.


Kukris are martial weapons now.

In support of your argument, you might also mention that any AC benefit from dexterity can be negated fairly easily (trip or grapple, for example) while AC from armor can only be bypassed with touch attacks, which rarely come into play outside of spells. This, too, tips the scale towards the burly guy.

I imagine some concesions will be made, or the elves will all faint from exasperation.
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Postby Guardias » Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:51 pm

Okay take this to another board.

And btw please do not reference NWN or anything affiliated with it ever again when speaking of D&D. That games is the worst representation of "D&D" ever to be made. I'm speaking for actually play experience here not some computer calculated, randomly determined, NWN induced madness. Just to finish in regards to rangers maybe you should read class descriptions and such instead of just looking at requirements.
As for dex vs str in fighters your should test two humans at level one basing them on these two extreme and test it.

Anyway back to the actual topic, FEATS and how they'll allow greater customization.
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Postby Anab » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:08 pm

I dont know what we're YELLING about!?!?!?
Really LOUD Noises!!!

Is any one else getting aggitated with the whole fighting and stuffies in the Annoucements? Take it to like the Gameplay Discussion and fuss over the details of who can point out the details the most. For now :-) lets just post actual questions or compliments so the rest of us arent reading through your crap.

Question/Idea:

Will there be another incentive for xping past 50?{Some of us dont wanna be like Pava and just have XP to slap around at dragons}! Like getting more feats per 100% gained past lvl 50? Can we make it so once you get 50 and you die you cant go below 50 but instead have a reduction in skill that then can be raised again?. Example being: Im level 50..Im Considered one of the best swordsman around. Id like to go kill trolls with a mace now...Since we are spending time doing it with a mace this time and we still use our handy dandy sword from time to time so thats still specialized.....Will exping past 50 like training through our lives to become the best of the best at everything? Or are does each class and specialization have a set amount of feats they will ever be able to attain in their entire careers?

Was just a sporadic thought... Other than that doing good guys and i like the direction this is taking. :-)
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:31 pm

<b>Anab</b>

Ok Ambar. :roll:

<b>Guardias</b>

Okay take this to another board.



I don't see you in the moderator list... so why are you telling me what to do again?


And btw please do not reference NWN or anything affiliated with it ever again when speaking of D&D. That games is the worst representation of "D&D" ever to be made. I'm speaking for actually play experience here not some computer calculated, randomly determined,


What exactly do you think Toril 2.0 is going to be? Letter perfect conversion of 3.5E to the computer... magically without computer calculations and randomness? I suspect it will bear more than a passing resemblence to NWN, given that they will be dealing with some of the same issues which drove the differences in NWN... ie: non-turn based, lack of movement, inability to flexibly handle skill usage.


As for dex vs str in fighters your should test two humans at level one basing them on these two extreme and test it.


Because you spend your characters entire life at level 1? Str warrior would probably still win anyway...
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:19 pm

Sarvis wrote:<b>Anab</b>
Ok Ambar. :roll:
<b>Guardias</b>


Can we refrain from bringing people into this ...err.. argument? that arent involved? Thanks
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Postby Shar » Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:56 am

Please keep it civil. If you can't, we'll have to prune parts of a healthy discussion to keep it that way.

Thanks everyone.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:10 am

Talking about D&D in this post. Not NWN, not D&D Online, not even necessarily Toril. Just 3.5e D&D.

In a stand-up damage contest at melee range with nothing else considered, Str Fighter > Dex Fighter. This is a point that doesn't really merit argument. Strength Fighters can also carry more, and have an advantage with certain combat tactics such as Bull Rush or Trip.

However, Dex Fighters:

- Can wear lighter armor than Str Fighters. Since Dex bonus to AC is capped by armor type, a Fighter with 18 Dex doesn't have "more AC" than a Str Fighter, but he can maintain the same armor class with lighter armor.

- Have a higher Touch AC. This means he's less likely to be hit by touch spells, of which there are tons. Touch AC also comes into play with Disarm and Trip checks, as well as attacks from incorporeal undead.

- Have a lower AC when denied their Dex bonus (due to their lighter armor). This happens when they are surprised in combat (though this is negated by the Uncanny Dodge class ability), paralyzed or held, or grappled.

- Are much better at using ranged weapons, as ranged weapons use Dex as their to-hit stat regardless of feats.

- Have higher initiative rolls, and tend to act sooner in combat.

- Have a higher Reflex save, typically a low save for Fighter types.

- Are eligible for certain feats with a Dex requirement, such as Dodge.

- Are more skilled at stealth, balance, escape, and rogue-type skills like Open Lock. They are weaker at climbing and jumping. There are many more Dex-based skills than Str-based skills, and because all three Str skills are mobility-based, they can often be bypassed with spells (such as Fly).

How much of this will carry over into Toril 2.0? Dunno. Does initiative matter? How often are you likely to be grappled? Will a Warrior ever have occasion to try to tumble, hide, or use a bow? Can't say, only Shevarash knows. But in pen & paper D&D, there's a strong case to play a Dex Fighter if you want your character to be well-rounded as opposed to a brawny tank type.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:35 am

Ambar wrote:
Sarvis wrote:<b>Anab</b>
Ok Ambar. :roll:
<b>Guardias</b>


Can we refrain from bringing people into this ...err.. argument? that arent involved? Thanks


Clearly we can't. :P
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Postby Drache » Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:10 pm

*tap tap tap* Hello? (echos) Is this thing on?

Been awhile now :)
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Postby Cirath » Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:22 am

Drache wrote:*tap tap tap* Hello? (echos) Is this thing on?

Been awhile now :)


Yeah. You would think Shev was too busy getting married to update or something!

*duck*
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Postby Shar » Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:41 pm

Yes, his rl is insanely busy (and rightly so, dangit) but he's formulating his post! Gotta decide which of the fabulous new features to discuss, you know.

nog me
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:26 am

One vote for Ranger improvements.

nog me
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Postby Gantoris » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:50 am

Ragorn wrote:One vote for Ranger improvements.

nog me


Rag's -- 3.5 Rangers are awesome and if Shevy is sticking to the similar class abilities and such between 50 levels worth of feat selection and sweet class abilities every ranger will be berry pleased.

I have a feeling Shevy has some cool stuff in store for us all. If trends in the annoucments continue we will see new classes come into the MUD and some go bye-bye to be replaced with nifty alternatives!

I just can't wait to see the race listings! Like are we going to see the various / numerous races of Faerun!? (big clap) Like 5 races of elves, 3 races of halflling, 2 gnomish races, 2 dwarves, half-orcs!? coooool, ummm dang... so many options! Shevy! hurry up and talk about which races are going to be available!

~Gantoris, Confident in Human Coolness with free bonus feat and extra skill points :)
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Postby Branthur » Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:59 pm

Gantoris wrote:I just can't wait to see the race listings! Like are we going to see the various / numerous races of Faerun!? (big clap) Like 5 races of elves, 3 races of halflling, 2 gnomish races, 2 dwarves, half-orcs!? coooool, ummm dang... so many options! Shevy! hurry up and talk about which races are going to be available!


Ummm..seems like the rogue with more skill points needs to put some into math. ;)

Dwarves - Shield Dwarves, Gold Dwarves, Clan Duergar, Urdunnir, Jungle Dwarves, Arctic Dwarves (6)

Elves - Moon Elves, Sun Elves, Wood Elves, Drow Elves, Wild Elves, Star Elves, Aquatic Elves, Avariel, Snow Elves, Rockseer Elves (10)

Gnomes - Rock Gnomes, Svirfneblin. Can't remember if Forest Gnomes are FR or not. (2-3)

Halflings - Lightfoot Halflings, Strongfoot Halflings, Ghostwise Halflings (because we need to have semi-telepathic barbarian halflings) (3)
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:36 pm

Gantoris wrote:Rag's -- 3.5 Rangers are awesome and if Shevy is sticking to the similar class abilities and such between 50 levels worth of feat selection and sweet class abilities every ranger will be berry pleased.

Oh no you di'int.

Rangers in 3.5 are still bad, bad enough that Monte Cook released a revision on his own website. They're getting closer to where they need to be, but Ranger is still far below the power curve. You can play a functional Ranger in D&D, same as you can play one here, but I wouldn't put them on par with the other melee classes available in core... especially some of the newer classes like the Duskblade.
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Postby Branthur » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:52 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Gantoris wrote:Rag's -- 3.5 Rangers are awesome and if Shevy is sticking to the similar class abilities and such between 50 levels worth of feat selection and sweet class abilities every ranger will be berry pleased.

Oh no you di'int.

Rangers in 3.5 are still bad, bad enough that Monte Cook released a revision on his own website. They're getting closer to where they need to be, but Ranger is still far below the power curve. You can play a functional Ranger in D&D, same as you can play one here, but I wouldn't put them on par with the other melee classes available in core... especially some of the newer classes like the Duskblade.


While I definately agree that 3.5 rangers are still bad (they're not even worth the 1 level dip that they were in 3.0), comparing it to an overpowered class like Duskblade is a bit much. ;)

Part of the reason is that Ranger has never had a clear focus, like the other classes have enjoyed, at least to an extent. Bards have also lacked focus, but have been far luckier. For some reason the focus of "nature warrior/nature's paladin" has never quite stuck, especially with those who just wanna "be cool like that guy Strider". Not that that's what I'm saying here..just that during the evolution of Ranger throughout the editions the focus has been fuzzy at best.

Partly it's because as a "nature warrior", are they supposed to be archery focused? Melee focused? Should their spells be better? No spells and more skill-based?

Everyone has an opinion as to what they should be, including those of us who don't play one. ;)
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Postby Gantoris » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:56 pm

No offense to your ability to build an effective character in 3.5 but I strongly disagree about how tough Rangers can be ;) If you want to play a figher, play a bloody fighter :P Within a MUD setting as a ranger you get figher HP, fighter BAB, free feats for either ranged or melee, and a stack of skill points to be spent on a lot of great class skills. How many fighters do you know with decent spot checks, hide and move silently? Not many. And in a new MUD in which spot checks determine if you are 'flat footed' and can be hit with sneak attack... well, doesn't sound too crappy to me!

Did I mention hide in plain sight and trackless step? How many times will fighters and rogues and paladins get tracked by aggro mobs? Gee, that ranger ability to hit and run is all of a sudden pretty bleepin' awesome!

I've heard the arguments and 3.5 rangers are not quite as 'open-ended' as a fighter can be... but keep in mind a ranger is a SPECIALIZED type of fighter. Nothing says you can't just make a Fighter, take the Tracking feat, two-weapon fighting, and go to town. Ranger just spells the path out for you rather than leaving some of the choices up to you like you would as a fighter. Although as Branthur says their focus is still a bit 'fuzzy' they do give you two paths you can take for combat focus.

I'm always open to hearing new arguments but the ones I've heard in the past just sound like whining, not constructive arguments for a better solution. I also agree that Monte Cook did some very cool stuff in his campaign setting and I'm a big fan of his optional rules. His changes to Ranger are certainly a cool take on the class, but by no means is the PHB 3.5 revision not a 'stands on it's own two legs' sorta class. The 3.0 ranger sucked ass and the changes to the class were rather radical if you do a side by side comparison.

That and I have faith that Shevy will see that their conversion from 3.5 will create a more than balanced class for their role within a party.

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Postby Shevarash » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:55 pm

1) Rangers will be cool

2) Monte Cook's revision is for 3.0
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Postby Cirath » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:00 pm

Gantoris wrote:Within a MUD setting as a ranger you get figher HP...


Cleric/monk hp, not fighter.

Shevarash wrote:1) Rangers will be cool


Is that allowed? Does that mean I can rally for anti-paladins now (including maybe a name change for that class)?
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:19 am

Gantoris wrote:No offense to your ability to build an effective character in 3.5 but I strongly disagree about how tough Rangers can be ;)

~Gantoris

I have no idea what Toril 2.0 will be like, and how Rangers and Ranger skills will fit into the game.

I do know, however, that in 3.5 Rangers are below average. As you said, they're like Fighters where half the feats have been picked for you, yes. And if a Fighter really wanted to play a bow character, he could emphasize his Dex and nail down all the same feats the Ranger gets, at about the same time.

Rangers are functional, in a lot of ways. But they're not awesome, and the reason is that so many of their abilities are very situational in nature. According to the adventure, or the DM, several of your niftiest tricks could go unused.

Take Favored Enemy, for example. Great idea, like Weapon Spec except it doesn't always work. If you aren't fighting goblinoids, or dragons, or undead, or whatever you choose as your FE, it's also a non-beneficial ability.

The Ranger's pet is half his level, so while it might be useful for scouting, tracking, or sometimes even flanking, it's rare to see the companion take a truly useful role in combat.

Having Hide (and Hide in Plain Sight) is nice, but the Ranger doesn't enjoy the same use the Rogue does with it. He can't use Hide in combat to gain sneak attack damage, for one. He also can't sneak past the guards and unlock the door, because he lacks Open Lock. He can't pick the key off the sleeping guard, because he doesn't get Sleight of Hand. Rangers can stay hidden fairly well, but they can't do very much while hidden except act as scouts. And any party with a Rogue already has a perfectly servicable scout, so this use is often redundant.

The Ranger spells in core, with a few noteworthy exceptions (many of which are duplicates from other spell lists, like Freedom of Movement), are terrible. Summon Nature's Ally IV at level 14 is about as useful as a mephit in Tiamat's lair. Tree Shape, Diminish Plants, Animal Growth, Repel Vermin, Command Plants... the spell list is savagely situational at worst and highly redundant with Clerics and Druids at best. And Ranger spells don't prestige well, there are precious few full-BAB prestige classes that offer any divine spell progression at all. I don't know of any GOOD ones offhand, so in my experience, you'll probably never get to Tree Stride unless you stay straight Ranger long after you stop getting regular abilities.

Rangers in 3.5 are 95% good 20% of the time. There are too many cool, fully functional base classes being introduced for me to spend much time playing a Ranger in D&D.

I'm actually considering playing an Order of the Bow Initiate in an upcoming campaign. Unfortunately, it's much more productive for me to prestige into the class from Fighter, or Fighter/Ranger, than it would be for me to take straight levels in Ranger.

And I think that's a fucking shame :)
- Ragorn
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Postby Gantoris » Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:00 am

What you have to say is not wrong at all. What I do not see at all are any suggestions that would make a Ranger 'ideal' in your eyes? All i hear is shortcomings and no suggestions as to what WOULD make a Ranger awesome.

Although part of me is afraid to ask because I suspect I'll hear things like; give Rangers lock picking, give rangers full hide in plain sight, give rangers a broader druid/cleric spell list.

To which I have to wonder at which point will you just have an uber-class that can fill the role of the rogue/druid/fighter?

I will grant you that the CORE ranger spell list is rather lackluster, yet I do feel that when you start adding in some of the nifty spells from the Complete books you can really take things up a notch. Most notable are the 'swift' spells that grant 'free action' casting of a spell that allows you in-combat effects such as bypassing DR of a certain type of creature, critting undead, or a handful of other effects.

Where can we look to for examples of the 'awesome ranger' ? Aragorn certainly didn't pick locks, cast spells, etc. He was a versitle fighter with melee and ranged, had herbal healing, and had mad tracking skills.

In conclusion, if you have to start looking at non-core classes to get your powergaming fix such as a Duskblade (gag) then I can see why you will never be satisfied with the changes made to the class until they are plainly an unbalanced class.

~Gantoris
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:02 am

Well Gant, you put a lot of words in my mouth with that post... you kind of started off on your own and reached a conclusion without any input from me :P But if a player approached me and asked me to house rule the Ranger class to bring it up to speed with the other classes?

First, I'd let 'em cast off the existing spell list like a Beguiler or Duskblade... that is, spontaneously casting any given spell on the list. That would go a long way toward making a highly situational spell list useful in a lot more situations. I just don't know when I pray for spells in the morning whether I'm going to need Detect Plants.

Then, open the spells in the Spell Compendium on a case-by-case basis, to beefen up the spell list a little bit.

A lot of the problem is not actually with Rangers, but with game mechanics that Rangers tap into. The Favored Enemy bonus is fine, but the fact that NPCs are broken into 30 different groups means the opportunity to use it might be scarse. If I could rewrite the system, I wouldn't tie Favored Enemy into monster types... I'd set up 8 or 10 categories, such as surface humanoids, subterranean humanoids, beasts, magical beasts, undead, etc. Nobody is going to take (or use) Favored Enemy Humanoid (aquatic) unless you have prior knowledge of the adventure.

Thing is, Rangers don't even stack up to Fighters, and Fighters are horrible at high level. Once you get over level 12, there isn't a Ranger build I know of that can keep up with even a moderately min/maxed CoDzilla (Cleric or Druid). You don't have to go to the Duskblade to find a class that destroys Rangers... I only used DB a an example of another light armor base class with spell potential. A Druid with access to Wild Spell and Wild Armor does most of what a Ranger can do, and then a whole world more.
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