Toril 2.0: Character Attributes

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Toril 2.0: Character Attributes

Postby Shevarash » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:31 pm

Toril 2.0: Character Attributes

This post will address some of the basic character attributes - ability scores, saving throws, damage resistance, and size.

Ability Scores


Toril 2.0 features six ability scores:

Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

Agility and Power have been removed, and their functionality integrated with Dexterity and Charisma, respectively.

Every ability score has a minimum value of 1, and has no effective maxmimum limit. An ability score of 50 is considered average. Each of your character's above average ability scores will grant a bonus on all rolls associated with that ability. Conversely, all below average ability scores will confer a penalty on assoaciated rolls. These bonuses and penalties grow with your ability score - the higher your ability, the better the bonus. Nearly every aspect of your character's actions will involve rolls that will benefit from high ability scores, such as: combat, casting, preparing spells, saving throws, skill checks, etc. You will find the details of all the things affected by your scores in past and subsequent posts.

Ability Score Generation

Instead of rolling randomly for ability scores, which is time consuming (and not much fun), all characters will start with baseline scores of 50 in all abilities, as well as a pool of Ability Points that will be distributed to set your scores where you want them. Setting your scores is simple, and is accomplished through a command that allows you to raise or lower your scores until you get them right where you want them. In order to encourage well balanced characters, there is a system of diminishing returns for buying ability scores - for example, it only costs 1 point to raise your score from 50 to 51, but it may cost 5 points to move it from 94 to 95. Racial ability modifiers are applied separately, and do not affect your initial point-buying.

In addition to receiving a large pool of Ability Points to buy stats at 1st level, each character also receives some ability points as they level - allowing you to improve your character's most important aspects as they increase in level.

Although this system is much different from what we're all used to, this point-buy system will eliminate the timesink of rolling stats, allow characters to get better as they level, and remove many imbalances.

Size


The old system of exact sizes in inches and pounds has been eliminated in favor of a simpler and more effective system of size categories. There are now 9 size categories:

Fine, Diminutive, Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan, Colossal.

Size does not affect your ability scores or other character attributes, but it does play an important role in combat. The smaller you are, the bigger other creatures are relative to you, and hence easier targets. Conversely, the bigger you are relative to another creature, the harder it is to hit that target. Size also comes into play with many tactical manuevers such as shield bashing, tripping, charging, etc. A creature's size is easily viewable, and therefore it is very easy to judge whether or not these maneuvers can be performed effectively beforehand.

Most player races are Medium-sized, with the exception of Gnomes and Halflings (Small), and Trolls and Ogres (Large).

Saving Throws

All old saving throw types have been removed and replaced by 3 new saving types. Each saving throw has an associated Ability Score that grants a bonus to that save type. Your base saving throws are based on your class and modified by equipment, spells, and feats. In addition to direct saving throw bonuses, equipment, spells, and feats can also grant bonuses to saving throws based on other factors such as damage type, spell school, etc. For example, "gauntlets of flame" could have +5 vs. Fire Spells, which is applied to any saving roll versus the damage from a fire spell.

Fortitude: These saves measure your ability to stand up to physical punishment or attacks against your vitality and health. Examples include poison, paralysis, petrification, disintegration, energy draining, etc. This saving type uses your Constitution modifier.

Reflex: These saves test your ability to move quickly and dodge incoming attacks, targetted or area effect. Examples include fireball, incendiary cloud, dragon breath, etc. This saving types uses your Dexterity modifier.

Will:: These saves reflect your resistance to mental influences as well as many magical effects. Examples include charm, feeblemind, illusionary attacks, summoning, etc. This saving types uses your Wisdom modifier.

Damage Resistance

Every type of damage-dealing attack now has a Damage Type, and your character has an associated Damage Resistance value for that type. Damage Resistance uses a percentage-based scale, and reduces (or increases) the damage you take from that type of attack. For example, a fire effreeti may have 75% Fire DR, meaning that they take only 25% of all fire-based damage. In a related example, Trolls have -100% Fire DR, meaning that they take double damage from all fire-based attacks.

DR is granted by race, equipment, spells, and feats. All DR adjustments are cumulative - for example, a human (0 base DR) wearing a ring of fire resistance (10% Fire DR) and affected by the protection from fire (25% Fire DR) spell would would have a total fire DR of 35%.

Equipment DR is now completely variable, much like the old MR system. Most player races have no adjustments to DR initially, but many NPC races have various amounts of DR in one or more types. Using the corerct type of damage will be the key to defeating some types of monsters. And I assure you, this system of mob DR will be used in moderation to keep from becoming silly as in some other game systems.

The current types of damage are as follows:

Unarmed, Slashing, Bludgeoning, Piercing, Missiles, Fire, Cold, Poison, Electric, Acid, Sonic, Positive, Negative, Psionic.


Character Record Display


All of these attributes, as well as Attack Bonus, Armor Class, Alignment, and a bit more are displayed on the new character record sheet, which is sort of a modernized combination of the old attribute/score commands. All of your character information is readily and easily available through this command, and there is no attempt to "hide" information. You will always have the tools at your command to be fully aware of your character's abilities and therefore make intelligent decisions based on that information.

Got all that?
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:01 am

First in! Woot, sounds xtra xciting :)
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:02 am

Sounds beautimous so far.

One question. Will equipment be susceptible to being torched under the new system, if a player doesn't have 100% resistance to some kind of attack? Or will dragon breath and like dangers be separate entities in this new system, as well?
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Postby Shevarash » Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:15 am

A very small amount of DR to that particular type of breath weapon will be needed to prevent equipment damage - probably around 25% (which is easy to get with a spell, just like now.)
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Postby Lilira » Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:19 am

Or if you're on FP are you going to sweat to death if you don't have DR to fire at 100%? Or smoke/gas.. etc etc etc
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:25 am

Will there be spells or other things that cause greater susceptibility to those dangers?

Even maybe certain pieces of equipment that have great stats except for the fact that they cause you to be more sensitive to the cold or fire.

And being drunk should cause extra cold damage... maybe even hidden cold damage that builds up until it either becomes fatal or you become sober and are suddenly aware that you're hurt.
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Postby Shevarash » Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:30 am

Yes. Although I don't know about the drunk stuff yet. :)
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:39 am

Think about it. I'm all for a "drunk" proc that makes you think you're part of a group slaying a dragon, but when it wears off, you're really naked and two leagues north of Mithril Hall beating on a rock with a stick.
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Postby telor » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:51 am

question bout the ability scores, since illithids i thought relied on power, what's that going to do to them now? jus kinda seems strange....why exactly would they need "charisma" for mental powers? is there going to be something else for them?
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:05 am

Charisma in D&D is considered to be more of a "personal power" thing, rather than looks. Sorcerers and Bards actually use the Charisma stat to determine their spellcasting abilities based on that explanation, so presumably T2 will use this explanation for squids as well.

Assuming they keep squids of course. ;)
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:15 am

Charisma is also used to modify the Cleric's ability to turn undead, and Paladins' saving throw bonuses and lay on hands ability.

So I assume all existing characters will get to "reroll" their stats under the new system?
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:34 am

After thinking some more, it almost seems that this system would make cookie cutter stats once again. If it cost 5x the points for the cited example for a stat to raise from 94 to 95, points will pool in the expected zones. All the work and weeks of rolling on the old roller were for naught?
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:36 am

Edited, I was apparently to asleep or something. Fairly sure I read it wrong. Nothing to see here, move along.
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Postby Cirath » Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:38 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Think about it. I'm all for a "drunk" proc that makes you think you're part of a group slaying a dragon, but when it wears off, you're really naked and two leagues north of Mithril Hall beating on a rock with a stick.


If what you drink makes you hallucinate that badly, then you should stop mixing it with window cleaner.

Seriously, though, booze usually causes dexterity and wisdom penalties, and while it is true that it would technically cause you to freeze to death faster, that is more like exposure dangers (which gets into the realm of subdual damage, another thing I am curious about), rather than straight elemental damage, since it takes quite some time.

But then, as I'm sure someone will point out in any Toril 2.0 thread, this is not D&D, so what the hell do I know?

telor wrote:question bout the ability scores, since illithids i thought relied on power, what's that going to do to them now? jus kinda seems strange....why exactly would they need "charisma" for mental powers? is there going to be something else for them?


I was going to ask something similar about the possibility of folding agility into dexterity. As for why illithids would need charisma, these days it seems that strength of personality and strength of will are the same thing. That, and because it keeps charisma from being a dump stat quite so often.

Thilindel wrote:After thinking some more, it almost seems that this system would make cookie cutter stats once again. If it cost 5x the points for the cited example for a stat to raise from 94 to 95, points will pool in the expected zones. All the work and weeks of rolling on the old roller were for naught?


I had the same concern. It seems like this will just make having the same stats as everyone else as obsessed over as having the same equipment as everyone else. While it's true that rolling got boring, I would rather have a chance to have really great stats (or at least fairly varied stats) than to have to dump all my points into one or two of the six, and leave the rest at or near the baseline (which is what most point buy systems in games tend to lead to in my experience) just to be good at something.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:47 pm

As a diehard rogue I can actually see where the differences will spring up. Most of the stats will end up very similar at first, with a few different tweaks here and there, but the new system with equipment and stat enhancements will definitely play toward the individual player's style. The new system will also drive players to seek out more varied equipment sets, in order to meet their needs for differing circumstances situation to situation.

When I initially rolled Ashiwi, I was willing to take a hit in my other stats in order to bump my intelligence higher. It gave me an edge in the way I liked to play, and made a great difference for me in the long run. Of course there are always going to be people who only see one way as the best way, and that perceived best way as the only way to do things "right," but the new system will allow for those who want to step out of that box to do so without giving up too much in the basic requirements of their class.



And Cirath... I absolutely cannot deny your logic. My window cleaner and I bow to you.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:53 pm

Wait... does this mean that wearing more than one purple earthstone ring might actually lessen the amount of damage the manscorp king's poison proc would do to you???
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Postby Lilira » Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:08 pm

Yes dear....
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:29 pm

Ragorn wrote:
So I assume all existing characters will get to "reroll" their stats under the new system?


Yes, that was stated in one of the other threads somewhere I believe.
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Postby Cap'n Touk » Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:18 pm

Are attributes going to be equivalent between race? ie 100int on an elf is the same as 100int on an ogre?

Is an ogre actually going to start with 50 intelligence if that's the case, or are races going to start with their own version of "everyone starts with 50 in all stats".. ie elves start at 65int, ogres start at 35?
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Postby Botef » Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:31 pm

Can you tell us a bit about how we will we go about learning how these stats work in-game before 'rerolling' our already 50 characters attributes. I'd certainly want to see this system in action and play around with it a bit first before doing anything permenant attribute wise to an already 50 character (assuming the attribute 'reroll' is a one time, permenant thing for preexisiting chars) without understanding how its going to effect me in the long haul. I'm sure equipment will be a factor as well as people tweak their pre-existing characters attributes to get the most gain from the equipment they already own, which makes sense...It sounds like relearning how our equipment will best benefit us is going to take a lot of time in and of itself plus the impact it will have in this new attribute system.

Its probably to early to ask, but will there be a experimental beta in which we can play with our 50 chars, rerolling stats, feats, etc to figure out what suits our personal preference/equipment pool before doing anything permenant in the final system? Or will it be in our best interest to roll new chars and play with the system before doing anything permenant to our pre-exisiting ones.

I personally like the point system as it allows everyone an even ground attribute wise while allowing some wiggle room on where to put it. True, characters will probably be somewhat similar in how their stats look at base - but in the long run I think you'll see a lot more diveristy in what kind of stat bonus equipment people wear instead of it being this drive for the 'one and only' piece of equipment for a eq slot/class. Plus-stat eq and a tight roller used to make for a lot of EQ diversity in relation to a players attribute decisions and I think this system will do a lot in that respect. I like this system mostly because a new player need not understand anything beyond how and where they want/should spend points for their class. In the current system a new player has no comprehension of what a good roll vs a bad roll is. I feel its better they make attribute decisions and start playing then staring at a roller wondering if their roll was sufficient or to keep rolling...and rolling...and rolling...and rolling.

:)
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:42 am

Bards need more stats than anybody. It does seem like they're the ones to compromise most with this system if it's straight up points that are distributed. Will class have any bearing on the amount of points to use?
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Postby Cirath » Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:35 am

Thilindel wrote:Bards need more stats than anybody. It does seem like they're the ones to compromise most with this system if it's straight up points that are distributed. Will class have any bearing on the amount of points to use?


Depending on how close to 3.5 this is, paladins and rogues may have the same issue.
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Postby Demuladon » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:07 am

Might be worthwhile having a 'recommended' Ability Points allocation in each stat for each level for each class.

ie. so if you follow the recommended allocation your character won't be a dud at level 50..

(.. unless there's someway of reseting your points allocation ..)
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Postby Lilira » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:53 am

This is very similar to one of the options to rolling characters for 3.5 D&D.

You get a base then you get a pool. Everyone gets the same pool and puts the points where you need them. As you go up in levels you get the option to change a stat by one point. (Every 4 levels I think in 3.5.) Hence the reason Shev said there would be no limits on the stats.

Bards don't get as many of the thiefy skills as a class skill in 3.5, though dex is important to every class for AC.

Its all going to depend on what kind of char you want to play for the class.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:56 am

All existing characters will have their stats reset to the base of 50 and be granted the initial pool of ability points, as well as whatever bonus points their level earns them.

There is a system in place to handle resetting your ability scores (just like feats). If you don't like the scores you set the first time, you will get several free chances to change them.

The stats you set intially are your "base" stat. Racial bonuses, equipment, and spells all adjust your base to result in your effective abiltiy score. The racial adjustment happens after you buy your initial scores, but you can see what the adjustments will be ahead of time so you always know exactly what you'll be getting.

The ability scores are indeed equivalent between races. Human Int 100 is the same as Elven Int 100. These are all absolute values, not "relative to your race" like in the old system.

I hope that makes sense and answers most of the questions thus far.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:58 am

I'm more confused with the 100 human int is 100 elf int. So that would mean an ogre with 100 dex is an elf's 100 dex? It would seem that all races are equal at this point or what would the difference be?
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:58 am

Thilindel wrote:I'm more confused with the 100 human int is 100 elf int. So that would mean an ogre with 100 dex is an elf's 100 dex? It would seem that all races are equal at this point or what would the difference be?


Shevarash wrote:<b>Racial bonuses</b>, equipment, and spells all adjust your base to result in your effective abiltiy score.


The difference would be that the ogre needs to spend a lot more points to get 100 dex due to racial bonus (penalty,) and elves would have to spend less.
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Postby rylan » Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:05 pm

Man, I hate to think about the amount of time required to go through all the eq stats to update it for the 2.0 changes.
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Postby Lilira » Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:39 pm

/agree Rylan
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:42 pm

Sarvis' reply about racial bonuses is correct. Also, keep in mind that ability scores can go over 100 naturally - there is no limit. So an Ogre with a big strength bonus could easily wind up at 120 naturally. That, of course, is just an example.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:43 pm

As for equipment changes, its not as bad as you might think. I built a converter that can handle the vast bulk of neccessary changes. Human attention will only really be required to adjust stats for balance, which is mostly just an issue with the very top tier items.
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Postby Botef » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:24 pm

Sweetness, thanks!
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Postby Latreg » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:35 pm

Sweet consent for ress with a con of 50! hehehe is there going to be adjustments for resurrect since it's doubtful everyone will be walking around with a 100 con?

Since there is no longer max stats, will the gear with the +max be given extra stats? To find gear that is +10 wis is easy, to find gear that is +5max wis is not.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:56 pm

Yes, ress will be adjusted.

The details of ability score increasing equipment will be released soon, and you'll see that Max Stat gear has not been forgotten. :)
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Postby rylan » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:39 pm

Would be interesting if max_stat gear acted as a straight bonus to the score on a 1 for 1 exchange, while other eq was subject to the 'trade' value you mentioned earlier.
For example, if you have 95 wis, a +10wis item might only take you to 97, while a +5max_wis item would bring you to 100.
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Re: Toril 2.0: Character Attributes

Postby Birile » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:40 pm

Shevarash wrote:Every ability score has a minimum value of 1, and has no effective maxmimum limit. An ability score of 50 is considered average. Each of your character's above average ability scores will grant a bonus on all rolls associated with that ability. Conversely, all below average ability scores will confer a penalty on assoaciated rolls. These bonuses and penalties grow with your ability score - the higher your ability, the better the bonus.


So if 50 is "average" and we all start with an average ability score of 50 for each ability, where do the scores below average come into play?

_

Does this mean we're finally going to know 100% for sure what affects a bard's song's strength without having to hypothesize between the likelihood of song strength being based on Int or Cha?
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Re: Toril 2.0: Character Attributes

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:49 pm

Birile wrote:So if 50 is "average" and we all start with an average ability score of 50 for each ability, where do the scores below average come into play?


Again, racial and equipment based penalties.

Err.. I would assume, of course. ;)

Remember, Shev said that racial bonuses would be applied AFTER you pick your stats. So if you leave your ogre at 50 Dex, his racial dex penalty would bring it down to something lower.
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Re: Toril 2.0: Character Attributes

Postby Latreg » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:19 pm

Birile wrote:So if 50 is "average" and we all start with an average ability score of 50 for each ability, where do the scores below average come into play?


I think you can opt to lower a stat to raise another, but I'm not 100% sure

so there are 6 stats x 50 = 300 total points to allocate, but I'm not totally sure if you can lower one to raise another.
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:28 am

I see a system with a lot more equipmentswitching, and backupset eq in bags for differnt fights etc.

E.g. u do spob and have 3 differnt types of eq. 1 for psi mobs, 1 for end fight and one for...
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Postby Lilira » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:46 am

Umm.. spob yer naked. *wink*
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:04 am

Doh!
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Postby Elet » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:49 am

well does this mean all item will be having new stats?

there goes my db... :) give us free id pls
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Re: Toril 2.0: Character Attributes

Postby Shevarash » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:13 am

Birile wrote:
So if 50 is "average" and we all start with an average ability score of 50 for each ability, where do the scores below average come into play?


You can drop your scores below average to recoup some points, although not too far. Racial adjustments, harmful spells, and equipment penalties could all drop your score even lower as well.

Birile wrote:Does this mean we're finally going to know 100% for sure what affects a bard's song's strength without having to hypothesize between the likelihood of song strength being based on Int or Cha?


Yes.
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:15 am

Elet wrote:well does this mean all item will be having new stats?

there goes my db... :) give us free id pls


No, but anything with saving throws will for sure change, as will Agi/Pow items.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:42 am

Will worn constitution items change all classes' base hitpoints? And in accordance, will all classes be able to have all bonus effects from stats applied to them equally?
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Postby Elet » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:03 am

Shevarash wrote:
Elet wrote:well does this mean all item will be having new stats?

there goes my db... :) give us free id pls


No, but anything with saving throws will for sure change, as will Agi/Pow items.


nother curiousity..

if currently our saving throws is a b c d & e
and our item provide the a b c d & e modifier.

when T 2.0 comes in. will those item gives similar modifier base on new saving throws?

or it will totally different?

err wait am i in the right thread? *drool*
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:45 pm

Sarell wrote:Will worn constitution items change all classes' base hitpoints? And in accordance, will all classes be able to have all bonus effects from stats applied to them equally?


Yes. All ability score bonuses are based on the value of the score For instance, a 100 Str grants you a +25 Str Bonus, which is applied to all strength-based rolls. Doesn't matter what race or class you are, if your effective stat is 100, your bonus is +25. The numbers here are just an example.

Again, in case its not totally clear (and I know this is a hard thing to unlearn) the stats you see are no logner adjusted relative to your race. Elf 100 Dex is exactly equal to Ogre 100 Dex.
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Postby Latreg » Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:00 pm

Shevarash wrote:
Sarell wrote:Will worn constitution items change all classes' base hitpoints? And in accordance, will all classes be able to have all bonus effects from stats applied to them equally?


Yes. All ability score bonuses are based on the value of the score For instance, a 100 Str grants you a +25 Str Bonus, which is applied to all strength-based rolls. Doesn't matter what race or class you are, if your effective stat is 100, your bonus is +25. The numbers here are just an example.

Again, in case its not totally clear (and I know this is a hard thing to unlearn) the stats you see are no logner adjusted relative to your race. Elf 100 Dex is exactly equal to Ogre 100 Dex.


the difference comes in as to how many points you need to spend to atain 100 dex, elves probably have to spend less points and an ogre and or they may cost more...

I was wondering about the constitution thing as well, in one old system you would get like 1d6 for hitpoints and if your con was high enough you'd get an extra 1,2 or 3 so you could have a 1d6 +3 per level. I think what was being asked is, if you wore tons of +con stuff until you hit 50 could you end up with more hps than perhaps you should have? Once you stopped gaining hps then you could switch over to regular type gear, guess you'd only need to wear the +con right before you leveled to capture those bonus hps.
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:32 pm

So to get extra innate attacks, if still applicable, do you need to hit a certain value for dex, or is that same value reserved for certain races only?
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Postby Lilira » Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:45 pm

Its based on your Base Attack Bonus (BAB) in d20... Since so far the proposed changes tend to indicate a heavy lean in that direction.. I would tend to believe it will on the mud too.
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'

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