Toril 2.0: Magic

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Toril 2.0: Magic

Postby Shevarash » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:40 pm

Toril 2.0: Magic

Toril's magic and spells systems have been completely rewritten from the ground up for Toril 2.0. While much of the interface is similar enough to be familiar to veteran spellcasters, the underlying mechanics have changed a great deal. This post will serve as an introduction to the new features of Toril 2.0's magic system.

Schools of Magic


Toril 2.0 replaces the multitude of spell types of old with 9 distinct schools of magic. Every spell, whether it be from a mage, druid, cleric, bard, etc, belongs to one of these schools of magic.

Abjuration
Abjurations are protective spells. They create physical or magical barriers, negate magical or physical abilities, harm trespassers, or even banish the subject of the spell to another plane of existence. Examples: protection from fire, globe of invulnerability, mind blank, dispel magic

Conjuration
Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you, actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane, heal, transport creatures or objects over great distances, or create objects or effects on the spot. Examples: conjure elemental, relocate, full heal, summon, minor creation.

Divination
Divinations provide means of acquiring information about an object, creature, or surroundings. Examples: detect invisibility, locate object, claivoyance.

Enchantment
Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. Examples: charm, fear.

Evocation
Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage. Examples: fireball, inferno, cone of cold

Illusion
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened. Illusions can also manipulate energy from the plane of shadow to cause real effects and damage. Examples: invisibility, mirror image, phantasmal killer

Necromancy
Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force. Examples: energy drain, resurrect, animate dead

Transmutation
Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition. Examples: stoneskin, strength, enlarge, fly

Universal
This is a catch-all school that contains some basic spells that every caster must know, such as detect magic.

Preparing and Casting Spells

Preparation

The first step in casting a spell is preparing it. The new 'prepare' command replaces mem/pray for all classes. It functions very similar to the memorization of old, with some modifications.

Every spellcasting character has a given number of spell circles and spell slots within those circles. Full casters have 10 circles, hybrid casters (ex: bards) have 6, and semi-casters (ex: paladins, rangers) have 4. Every class gains slots in their circles in a linear fashion as they level. There are somewhat less overall spell slots in 2.0, but they are much better distributed. In other words, your characters will have more high circle spell slots and less low circle slots. Additionally, a high Int/Wis/Cha (depending on class) will grant you bonus slots in progressively higher circles.

The time it takes to prepare a spell is now directly determined by the circle it occupies. Low circle spells prepare very quickly, and high circle spells take increasingly longer. Your intelligence has no bearing on how long preparation takes, and the concept of 'meditation' to quicken study has been eliminated. You will find the overall time it takes to prepare your spells comparable to that of a high level character with a decent intelligence in the old system.

In addition, the first time a spell is prepared in a particular slot, it takes significantly longer to prepare it. After that spell has been cast it can be re-prepared much faster. This will encourage thinking ahead and managing your spell list wisely to avoid unseemly delays in the midst of battle.

Spells may also be prepared with metamagic feats (see Feats post) which will cause them to occupy a higher circle slot and hence take longer to prepare.

The prioritize and forget commands have been recreated for the new system and function just like always - although they both now accept a given spell circle as an argument, in addition to a specific spell.

Casting

Spells are cast just like always, albeit with some improvements and standardizations:

All spell casting times have been standardized, and overall this has resulted in much faster casting for combat spells, and a moderate improvment on non-combat related spells. Spell 'stuttering' or failed spells, have been entirely removed. A spell cast will always finish - provided the caster is not interrupted by an outside force. There are also a few new ways to target spells, such as specifying a character's equipment slot or specific worn piece of gear.

Components

There are three types of components - Somatic, Verbal, and Material. Somatic components are the physical gestures that most spells require. Verbal components refer to the magical words that are spoken. Material components are an actual item that must be present for the spell to function, and is consumed in the process. All spells have a combination of these three components. Most spells require only a somatic and verbal component, but there are many that lack one or the other. A spell with no verbal component could be cast while silenced, and a spell with no somatic component could be cast while bound, on the floor, grappled, or similiarly restricted.

In general, material components are limited to higher level and specialized spells, whose power is restricted by this need for an item.

Spell Level

Every spell cast now has a 'level' associated with it. This level is used to determine the damage a spell does, and how difficult it is to save against. A spell's level is calculated by adding its circle and your bonus from the relevant ability score (Int/Wis/Cha). This level can be further modified by feats and magical items. Effectively, this means that the higher circle a spell is, and the more powerful the caster is, the harder the spell is to save against. This allows for a much better scaling of spell effectiveness.

Counterspells

In addition to the usual ways of stopping a spellcast, a caster can now attempt to 'counterspell' an enemy spellcaster to ruin their spell cast. Counterspelling is simple in theory - you need only cast the exact same spell (with the 'counter' paramater) that your target is casting at just the right time. In practice, it requires a good bit of finesse and preparation to effectively counterspell.

Spell List

This section will detail how spells are acquired, as well as outline some miscellaneous changes in the way they operate.

Acquiring Spells

Much like now, all casters get their basic spells from their guildmaster. Arcane casters must scribe their spells into a spellbook (which has been rewritten and vastly improved), while divine casters simply learn the new spells. There will also continue to be spells that require some sort of quest to obtain.

Inbetween basic and quest spells exist a new category of spell: rare spells. Rare spells could be found in a shop, as part of a zone's rewards, loaded randomly on a casting mob, or scattered throughout the realms. These spells will be in the form of scrolls, which can be copied into a spellbook for Arcane casters, or simply read and memorized for Divine casters. Once copied or memorized, these spells become a part of the caster's spell list.

There will be a vast amount of spells in 2.0, and many of them will be in this format. In this way, spell collecting becomes an integral part of the game and separates the novice spell casters from the highly learned. As a side note, spellbooks are now tied to their caster and cannot be transferred or taught out of - so everyone must collect their own spells.

Spell Lists and Classes

All classes with the exception of Mages have their own spell lists. That is, Rangers have one list of spells, Clerics another, Bards another, etc. The exception to this is with the users of Arcane magic - Invokers, Enchanters, Necromances, etc. These classes all use the same Arcane spell list, with varying access to the schools of magic outlined above. This eases much of the burden in maintaining 5 or 6 separate lists for very similar spells and helps to keep everything balanced. In addition, there will be some very far reaching changes to the class make-up for arcane casters - which of course will be addressed in a subsequent post.

Offensive Spells

This final section will detail some of the new offensive spell concepts, including two new types of offensive spells.

Spell Radius

All spells that affect more than one target now have a radius of effect. This completely replaces the old concept of 'area' spells, and removes the 'blast radius' code. All area spells must now be targetted, and will hit a number of targets on either side of them determined by the size of that spell's radius. The damage done can be distributed in a number of different ways depending on the spell, from equal distribution to diminishing splash damage.

Additionally, there are metamagic feats that allow the 'widening' or 'compressing' of a spell's radius. In this way you can alter the size of an area's spell radius, and in some cases you can even use it to cast a single-target spell on multiple people.

Touch Spells

Touch spells are just that - spells that require that you touch the subject to activate. Chill touch is a classic example, but these spells are not limited to pure damage - debuffs can also require a touch to function. In order to land a touch spell you must make a Touch Attack, which uses your attack bonus versus the target's Touch AC (see: Combat Basics post). If you succeed, the spell goes off/ If you fail, depending on the spell, you either lose the spell or must try again to hit them before the spell can be discharged. This process is all automatic, you only need to cast the spell like normal.

Ray Spells

Ray spells are similar to touch spells, only instead of physically placing your hands on the victim you must hit them with a targetted ray which can be avoided. When casting a ray spell, you must make a Ranged Touch Attack. The major difference between a Ranged Touch and normal Touch Attack is in the ability score that they use - Str for Touch, Dex for Ranged. This is similar to the distinction between melee and missile attacks.

Critical Spells

Since Touch and Ray spells both required an attack roll to hit, they can also land as a critical, doing extreme amounts of damage.

Conclusion

There is more to share about the new Magic system, but this post is approaching encyclopedic lengths as it is, so I'll wrap it up. As you can hopefully see, the goal with this new Magic system was to eliminate timesinks, scale magic uses better so that they are effective even at low level, provide more tactical options, increase variety in their spell lists, and overall balance. Please feel free to offer feedback or ask questions.
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Postby Lilira » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:49 pm

What happens to the quest spells we've all worked hard to get that we have now?

Basically I'd like to know if I need to give up working on Anni Undead now... *grin*
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:56 pm

You won't lose them. Spells that are currently difficult spell quests will remain - although in some cases their name and/or effects may change.
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Postby Lilira » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:01 pm

Thank you!
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Postby Drahken » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:39 pm

A bit off topic but related to area spells I suppose.

Will there be any changes to mob stacking and the order in which it is done? One of the things thats always annoyed me about the current system is how repopped/walk-in mobs take the front, 1.xMob position rather than stacking on the back or having any relation to where the mob is physically in a room. Keeping track of which mob your fighting in relation to using targetted spells is very frustrating in the current system when a repop or walk-in occurs. Walk-ins are at least managable in the sense that you have a chance at seeing the mob enter, but repops are another animal. Curious if any changes to how this is handled will be on the horizon and or if there will be anything done to better 'visualize' a mobs positional relation to other mobs and players short of trying to count down the list.

Second question relates to 'rare' spells. Will players already 50 come pre-loaded with some rare spells or will all players regardless of level be required to find them (which could create some nasty competition initially till people get caught up). Curious how functional level 50 casters will be right out of the box in 2.0, or if they will have a lot of work to do collecting 'rare' spells before being fairly comparable to how they are now.

All in all the new magic system sounds like a lot of fun with a lot of room for creativity for the player or group leader alike! I'm stoked to see it in action!
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Postby grundar » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:46 pm

lemme say something possitive for once: this looks awesome, thank you! there is now no deterrent to rolling an ogre shaman for 2.0 (at least not cause of memtimes) :P

i have one particular question.. will gheal be given an area of effect or will it be limitless?

and now for the random questions...
- will preparing spells require priest types to pray at certain preset times for them? prolly not but i had to ask :P

- i suppose specialization skills like spellcast evocation/specialize evocation will be the limiting factors for you to chose spells according to your class and say not be casting phantasmal killers as an invoker, or will the spell list be somewhat cut for each class ie nonliches get no lichtouch/non invokertypes !force missiles? :P

... kinda hoping you'll decide to bring in homeland's version of true sight... it was awesome and well worth it even if it required an expensive component :P
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:40 pm

So my question is very specific I guess. Two fold question at that.

So, with these rare spells, will this enable say a lich type to learn relocate if that becomes one of the spells, or will things still pretty much have the same restrictions?

Along with that question comes part two, and this is relo specific. Is relocate going to be changed where you can relocate to people, and places through a remember command? I.e. you go to a particular room, remember the room, give it a name and it lets you relo to said room while you can only remember a specific # of rooms.

I'm curious how either of those two will be handled. It's always been a thorn that even though I can master life and death I can't actually master a teleportation spell.
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Postby Cirath » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:55 pm

Will the specialist mages get to choose their opposing schools, or will their access be pre-determined?
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:58 pm

Will Sarell get an innate Improved Ranged Touch attack?
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:00 pm

Oh, and considering Arilin's question... Can we assume that any caster can learn any spell as long as their race/class is capable of that school of magic?
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:40 pm

In practice, it requires a good bit of finesse and preparation to effectively counterspell.


How will you prevent people from just using triggers to activate counterspells?
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Postby Gormal » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:47 pm

Will the arcane magic classes retain individual classes, or will we all be "mage". If we are specializing in classes, then branching out as we see fit, can we get an example of how much leeway we'll have? IE, how hard is it for an enchanter to learn inferno.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:06 am

How will radius spells work exactly? Does it just pick mobs at random up to a spell-based limit, or does it pick them by order in the list of mobs? Will size matter? For instance is a fireball defined as hitting 10 mobs, or as hitting a certain size of are? So fireball might hit 100 gibberlings, but only 1 dragon because it's so large...
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Postby Demuladon » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:08 pm

(i) Flip side of Ragorn's question:

Will a multiclass-mob-mage be able to endlessly Counterspell any spell a player throws at them, until the mob runs out of mana?

edit: ie. the mob effectively gets 100%MR until it runs out of mana.. eek!


(ii) What about Counter-Counter spells?

If I cast stone at Targsk, mob casts stone at me to counter, and Rarlaj cast's stone at mob to counter-counter?
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Postby Latreg » Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:31 pm

Ragorn wrote:
In practice, it requires a good bit of finesse and preparation to effectively counterspell.


How will you prevent people from just using triggers to activate counterspells?


Same way they do now for skills and spells, you can't.

I think the idea is, if you try to counter a spell you still use up one of the spells in that slot, so you need to decide do i want to counter that spell or save it for offense or for later in the fight etc. Take an invoker, currently they announce they are casting, cast the nuke, repeat, mem, this may cause them to change or decide to try and counter, then nuke or counter again etc etc but either way they still will only have a certain number of spells they can cast, it's just how will they chose to cast them is where the change comes in.
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Postby Gormal » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:23 pm

The more I see of 2.0, the more I'm intrigued to see its actual implementation. I know its going to take a lot of time to balance out the new gameplay, but I think that in the end this will really help to make everything MUCH more interesting. Kiryan and Pava will be busy for months trying to tweak so many characters:P

Good show.
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:16 pm

Latreg wrote:Same way they do now for skills and spells, you can't.

I think the idea is, if you try to counter a spell you still use up one of the spells in that slot, so you need to decide do i want to counter that spell or save it for offense or for later in the fight etc. Take an invoker, currently they announce they are casting, cast the nuke, repeat, mem, this may cause them to change or decide to try and counter, then nuke or counter again etc etc but either way they still will only have a certain number of spells they can cast, it's just how will they chose to cast them is where the change comes in.

Fighting a strong spellcasting mob, why not just keep one Mage idle with a trigger set to "<mobname> begins casting a spell called '%1';cast '%1' counter"? Yeah they'll run out of spells eventually, but holding one Mage in reserve to keep everyone from getting torched seems like a strong plan in my head.
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Postby Gantoris » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:18 pm

Sarvis wrote:How will radius spells work exactly? Does it just pick mobs at random up to a spell-based limit, or does it pick them by order in the list of mobs? Will size matter? For instance is a fireball defined as hitting 10 mobs, or as hitting a certain size of are? So fireball might hit 100 gibberlings, but only 1 dragon because it's so large...


I can see your argument for a fireball only hitting one dragon, but smaller creatures all the way down to tiny in 3.5 take up a single 'grid space' for each mob. Creatures that 'swarm' are likely going to be a mob that is coded as an actual swarm.

I would suspect area will just hit mobs regardless of size with perhaps the exception of hitting fewer large mobs. Although to damage a big monster you don't have to cover their entire base with an area spell, you just need to clip any part of it's base. I know this is a lot of conjecture based on tabletop AND the MUD, but so far the more I read the more I feel I will be playing a text-based version of the tabletop game (which totally rules).

It's all guesses until Shevy decides how to handle it though.

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Postby Gantoris » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:20 pm

Ragorn wrote:Fighting a strong spellcasting mob, why not just keep one Mage idle with a trigger set to "<mobname> begins casting a spell called '%1';cast '%1' counter"? Yeah they'll run out of spells eventually, but holding one Mage in reserve to keep everyone from getting torched seems like a strong plan in my head.


Hell yeah man, I totally agree. I would be the first to set a wizard on counterspell duty in those nasty fights with spellcasters.

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Postby Gantoris » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:26 pm

Cirath wrote:Will the specialist mages get to choose their opposing schools, or will their access be pre-determined?


I would have to assume all 'Wizards' have the option of choosing their 2 opposed schools just like in 3.5 to become a 'specialist' on the MUD. So your Abjuration Specialist (fit the roll of 'protection spell wizard') could learn Inferno as long as they didn't take Evocation as an opposed school of magic.

I can't wait to start sifting through the spell lists and deciding what kind of specialist to play (that is if we HAVE to specialize?) I could see a strong argument to just play a generalist Wizard and take the drawbacks... perhaps a lower 'saving throw' and cast one less spell per level from a specialized school.

Shevy, could we choose to not specialize and just be a straight up Wizard? Maybe specialist wizards will have a few 'rare' spells or 'quest spells' that only they have access to? Or perhaps those special spells can be learned by a straight Wizard but when a specialist of the proper school casts them they are 'extra cool' like the Evil female Rogue wielding Khanjari's. *nudge*

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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:57 pm

Another thing I thought up. You mentioned counterspells and what not. How about contingency spells? Will we be able to set up some sort of contingency?
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Postby Gantoris » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:23 pm

ca 'contingency damage stoneskin'

ca 'contingency hp_50 relocate 1' (1= guildhall relocation anchor point)

ca 'contingency grapple grease self'

ca 'contingency damage_fire pro fire'

ca 'contingency damage_melee mirror image'

ca 'contingency keyword_ohshit teleport 1' (1= start of zone teleport anchor point)

say ohshit = POOF!

sweeeeet.

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note: of course you can only ever have one contingency up at a time ;)
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Postby Lilira » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:29 pm

Mmm.. wonder if we can choose between sorcy and wizard. Though sorcy would kinda suck if stuck to the same casting restricts as bards. Not having books would be handy, but yeesh...
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Postby Gantoris » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:48 pm

Lilira wrote:Mmm.. wonder if we can choose between sorcy and wizard. Though sorcy would kinda suck if stuck to the same casting restricts as bards. Not having books would be handy, but yeesh...


But think of the possibilities of Meta Magic...

On the fly maximized enlarged fireballs

Empowered magic missiles

nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke.... quickened teleport

sweeeeeet.

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Postby Shevarash » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:16 pm

I'll address all of the questions about specialists and mage class in general in a separate post very shortly. As to the other questions...

Spell Radius

Spells with a radius expand outwards from the target. That is, the target will be hit first, and then it will go on to hit the people 1 step above and one step below them on the room list. It will then continue to expand outwards and hit the people 2 steps above and 2 steps below, etc, until the radius limit is reached. The radius is classified as Small, Medium, Large, Huge, etc, and each one affects an odd-number of people, so Small = 3, Medium = 5, etc. Target size is not taken into account - its assumed that even if creatures are large or small theya re still standing roughly the same distance from one another.

Contingency

Yes, contingency is a spell. You can indeed only have one up at a time.

Counterspelling

Its a little harder to dependably counterspell than you might think. For one, the timing is critical. Two, you must have succesfully recognized the spell being cast. Three, there are a LOT more spells available to mobs, so always having the same spells as them memorized is not a sure bet. Finally, it does expend that spell slot when you counterspell. Counterspelling is something that will certainly require some playtesting, and if it proves ot be too powerful there are lots of ways to tweak it to make it more of a challenge. You could theoretically counter a counter spell, but the timing on that would be pretty tough to pull off.

Group Spells

There is a special category for "Group Radius" spells. Some spells will be configured to affect the entire group, others will work just like an offensive radius, but will only hit group members.

Prep Times

All casters can prepare their spells at any time of the day, just as now.

Rare spells

Everyone will have only the basic list of spells upon conversion to 2.0. Keep in mind that the basic spells will still be plenty, possibly even more spells than you have now. 2.0 features a MUCH larger spell list, and the idea behind rare spells is to add variety and spells for specialized situations - so you will be fully functional without any of them.
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Postby Cirath » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:40 pm

Will feedback (between grouped mages casting the same spell) be replaced by accidental counterspells?
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:45 pm

Feedback is not present in this system, nor are accidental counterspells. You have to target the caster to counterspell them, so it would be impossible to do that to another player. The implementation of the spell radius and a general rewrite of the spell damage code should eliminate the need for artifically restricting spells in the manner that feedback did. Again though, this will all require playtesting and may change come implementation time. Although, I wouldn't re-implement something as brute force and annoying as the old feedback system...
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:21 pm

Of course, all this begs the question: Is it going to be worthwhile to play a melee class again?
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Postby Gantoris » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:13 pm

Sarvis wrote:Of course, all this begs the question: Is it going to be worthwhile to play a melee class again?


Two Words

"Hit-Points" :D

Mages are nothing without their party as far as zoning and big mob groups are concearned.

Will mages be able to solo some stuff? You bet. Just like they do now.

But what I love about playing Melee myself is that your ability to kick ass is 100% of the time until your at negative hitpoints.

Spell Casters will ALWAYS be the most powerful characters in the game on the high-end of ANY game in which there is reality changing magics. Dude..its freaking MAGIC! :P

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Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:25 pm

There should be more to melee than meatshields. Thinking that there shouldn't be is why there's so many disaffected rangers hanging around.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:30 pm

Sarvis wrote:There should be more to melee than meatshields. Thinking that their shouldn't is why there's so many disaffected rangers hanging around.


no .. melee being broken and unbalanced is why rangers are disgruntled ...
seems to be addressed in the upcoming changes
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Postby Cirath » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:09 am

Gantoris wrote:Two Words

"Hit-Points" :D

Mages are nothing without their party as far as zoning and big mob groups are concearned.



This sort of think always bugged me when playing my AP. You would think that a guy swinging four feet of sharp, enchanted steel about would be more than a hunk of meat for a spellcaster to hide behind. I am still desperately hoping that melee will be a viable source of damage in 2.0 (like it is in pen and paper).

Gantoris wrote:Spell Casters will ALWAYS be the most powerful characters in the game on the high-end of ANY game in which there is reality changing magics. Dude..its freaking MAGIC! :P


Close, but not quite. Casters are best in the sprint, but melee types have the better staying power (in theory). It has always been the caster's need to prepare (and predict what he should prepare) that limited him. Of course, this is diminished a bit by the fact that in a MUD, a caster can just step one room away and replenish spells. I have no idea how to adjust for that, though.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:16 am

Ummmm....

Six "Invoker Bunny of Doom" mobs in one room. One Bunny begins to cast "Bigby's Buckteeth."

Which bunny do you attempt to counterspell, if you have to target it? Will there be a way to discern which bunny is about to bite your ass off?

Also...

Will area spell damage now also bleed over into player groups? If there's two mobs in the room and you cast "Inferno" on one of them, is there a chance you will catch whichever player just happens to be standing closest to them in room order, as well? It seems to me that spells like this, if they are going to hit players too, should hit those who are in melee with the mob targetted first.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:21 am

Ambar wrote:
Sarvis wrote:There should be more to melee than meatshields. Thinking that their shouldn't is why there's so many disaffected rangers hanging around.


no .. melee being broken and unbalanced is why rangers are disgruntled ...
seems to be addressed in the upcoming changes


Yes, but that situation is a direct result of making the primary group roles tank, healing, damage and sneakers.

Melee damage is broken because the opinion was that melee classes should be tanks and nothing else... if we get past that, we can have useful melee again.
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Postby Cirath » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:22 am

Ashiwi wrote:Will area spell damage now also bleed over into player groups? If there's two mobs in the room and you cast "Inferno" on one of them, is there a chance you will catch whichever player just happens to be standing closest to them in room order, as well? It seems to me that spells like this, if they are going to hit players too, should hit those who are in melee with the mob targetted first.


Of course, this would lead to mages being restricted to small area spells except in extremely large fights, as well as accusations of intentional pkilling (or at least, attempts to do so).

I suspect that players will be immune to player-cast damage spells, at the very least (though probably still not from earthquake).
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Postby Gantoris » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:12 am

I agree with Cirath, the logic would seem to fall in line with how things have been done in the past with area spells. Why take steps backwards by implimenting damaging players.

I suppose the easiest logic is that wizards in tabletop have enough control to toss a fireball to only hit the enemies and not your friends. Why wouldn't it be the same here.

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Postby Lilira » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:24 am

Gantoris wrote:I agree with Cirath, the logic would seem to fall in line with how things have been done in the past with area spells. Why take steps backwards by implimenting damaging players.


We can damage players with Area spells.. its called Feedback, and it hurts like hell. Druids can fb with Doom, invokers are notorius for it.. not sure about other classes.
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Postby Cirath » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:05 pm

Gantoris wrote:I suppose the easiest logic is that wizards in tabletop have enough control to toss a fireball to only hit the enemies and not your friends. Why wouldn't it be the same here.


If only they always managed to remember such things *recalls being deemed an "acceptable loss" on more than one occasion*

Lilira wrote:We can damage players with Area spells.. its called Feedback, and it hurts like hell. Druids can fb with Doom, invokers are notorius for it.. not sure about other classes.


And Shevy spake, saying:

Shevarash wrote:Feedback is not present in this system... I wouldn't re-implement something as brute force and annoying as the old feedback system...
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Postby Latreg » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:27 pm

[/quote]
Fighting a strong spellcasting mob, why not just keep one Mage idle with a trigger set to "<mobname> begins casting a spell called '%1';cast '%1' counter"? Yeah they'll run out of spells eventually, but holding one Mage in reserve to keep everyone from getting torched seems like a strong plan in my head.[/quote]

for a single mob that would be a good plan, however will it be worth to try to counterspell instead of cast an offensive area? Single mobs tend to get the hell nuked out of them anyway, not sure there would be a need to set someone on defensive counterspell. Now if you could counter the beholders insta death.....hhmmmm.
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Postby Latreg » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:11 pm

Seems like there will be a way to alter the group list, to show who is in front who is in the back etc? Maybe a number assigned to group members, which can also be reasigned. Currently it's follow the leader, which usually means the leader enters the room first, thus would be up front.

As a side note, I think if you choose the proper skills/feats melee will be a strong offensive power. I see things coming over LFGC for classes with specific skills, and high numbers in those skills. Warriors might be seperated out by skills, i.e. has awesome rescue/bash/defense, but offense not so good vs. warrior with awesome shieldpunch/bash/kick/offense but other skills not as good. There are only so many points you can get, so if you want to excell in one area another area will have to suffer.
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Postby Cap'n Touk » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:08 pm

I'd like to see 2 different damage niches - magic damage being the most effective for area fights, and melee damage being the most effective for single target fights.

The problem (one problem?) with a "Toril : 3.5e" conversion is the biggest drawback of a caster in 3.5e is needing 8 hours of rest before rememorizing spells. Because Toril doesn't work like that (thank gawd, no time sinks please) spells have to be balanced differently.

Is there a plan to address the damage issue?

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Postby Gantoris » Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:38 pm

Melee can still whup ass in a no magic zone, in a silence, and in long drawn out fights. They can take a few hits, they don't make concentration checks to dish out their attacks when they take damage.

But as it stands the TRUE power houses of any fantasy setting are the spell casters with the exception of Conan ;)

Fighters and melee are exceptional at what they do. They can take on hordes of orcs, drive back entire battle lines of soldiers, and using feats of strength and skill to set them apart from regular schlubs. But of the fancy wizards above they all had their fighters close by ready to beat the piss outta anybody that got to close.

I have no doubts about how awesome fighters and melee are going to be in Toril 2.0. Fighters can now have armor class WELL above what the -100 cap now allows. With the right spells and armor dudes running around at nearly crit-only ranges are going to kick major ass. Melee fighters two-handing greatswords and using tactical combat feats will be the 'tricks' that can be used again and again without needed to be re-memorized.

So don't forget that where wizards get spells, melee gets kickass new manuevers and 'tricks' or feats that will used. The days of just sitting back and watching text fly by after typing 'kill mob' are a thing of the past!

>flank orc
>trip orc
>powerattack 5
>expertise 3
>defense full
>defense partial
>bullrush orc
>flurry orc
>grapple orc
>pin orc
>manyshot orc
>rapidfire orc

>w;manyshot orc;e;hide

Sweeeeeet.

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Holy counterspells, Batman!

Postby Guardias » Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:59 pm

In regards to counterspells and feats being implemented. Will there be an Improved Counterspell feat? If there is that will be a whole new can of worms, a good one in that one general mage could counterspell anything as long as they could identify it (via spellcraft), but bad in that mobs could do the same to someone trying to force missile them by casting cone of cold or any other evocation spell.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:04 pm

Ragorn wrote:Fighting a strong spellcasting mob


Hahahaha... good one Rags!

The counterspell idea will most likely become something to help 2-3 man groups cheese things. In a large group you already have lots of ways to disrupt casting. Perhaps a lot of those ways will be metered out differently with the new sizes and a change to earthquake(hint), but most fights where casting becomes a problem, you are fighting an entire room of casters all with the exact same string. Picking out which single mob is casting at a particular time will be an exercise in futility.

It's not a problem w/ the idea of counterspells, but more w/ the mechanics of how zones have been designed over the years to adapt to the huge imbalance in magic v. melee.
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Postby Cirath » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:50 pm

Gantoris wrote:So don't forget that where wizards get spells, melee gets kickass new manuevers and 'tricks' or feats that will used. The days of just sitting back and watching text fly by after typing 'kill mob' are a thing of the past!


Tricks like rescue, trip, bash, charge, garrote, kick? They have different names, but most of the standard combat manuvers do the same thing that melee classes can already do. The thing that is missing is that, in general, a guy flailing about with a greatsword is about as effective as a kitten swatting at my ankle in most casses. This is what I am hoping will be fixed.

With luck, there will be spells like rage, greater magic weapon, flame arrow, and such, and spells like bull's strength will actually matter. This would help a bit, and expand the mage/cleric spell list. Everyone wins. *nod me*
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Postby Gantoris » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:03 am

As far as things sound so far I bet you can take those spells to the bank Cirath. Loads of buffs in 3.5 and I figure loads of options. I for one can't wait to start pouring over the spell lists! (Hurry up Shevy!) ;)

Don't know if you have any idea but you DO realize that MOST of the damage done in a combat are the hitters. Spells may look fancy and SOUND impressive but the 3-6 attacks scrolling across the screen for each melee character make up for 90% of the damage in a combat. Even in D&D Wizards are not the primary damage dealers. They are the enablers for the melee classes. They are the buff casters, the protections, the hasters. Any good wizard worth their salt will realize that with a good spell list they can exponetially increase the effectiveness of their party. As a wizard you have to realize that casting a fireball is good, but in most cases casting a haste throws the group damage per round through the roof (MUCH more than a fireball has the chance of doing). The damage messages for melee in the status quo just fail to tell you how hard you hit, the messages now only tell you how your hit equates into the overall % of hitpoints remaining. You ever notice that your feedback is something like.

you barely scratch
you barely scratch
you barely scratch
you hit
you hit
you hit
you hit
harder harder harder
blammo!
Bleeeding!
blood all over
RIP

The messages do NOT seem to actually give the feedback to the party as to how effective the hitters are, just that they are hitting and what the 'status' of the mob is as the messages and 'status' change.

Anywho, I hope that with as much information as it sounds like we will get to see in the new revision we might see the #'s or points of damage done in a hit to validate the melee in the party. This way you can put your thumbs in your suspenders after a big fight knowing that you were doing pretty good damage in a fight OR you can perhaps tell whether or not all your damage was penetrating damage reduction on a particular mob (that is if there is some kind of DR carried over from 3.5)

Thats enough speculation and rambling.

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Postby Disoputlip » Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:21 am

I find the casting time kind of wierd. Especially for power word spells. Power word is a caster saying 1 word that does something, and it therefore has casting * or so.

In 2.0 It would seem to be as slow as other spells?

Spells that are fast because they are like this:
word of recall
unholy word
power word blind
power word kill

Unholy word is special though.
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Postby Eilistraee » Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:25 pm

Disoputlip wrote:I find the casting time kind of wierd. Especially for power word spells. Power word is a caster saying 1 word that does something, and it therefore has casting * or so.

In 2.0 It would seem to be as slow as other spells?

Spells that are fast because they are like this:
word of recall
unholy word
power word blind
power word kill

Unholy word is special though.


All casting times have been standardized, however they have not all been made identical. We have some pre-set definitions for spells and can specify the speed of which we wish the spell to be completed.

Currently in our antiquated code, cast times are largely an arbitrary decision made at the spell creation time, and is further modified by any quick-chant skill you may possess. Resulting in a crap-shoot for knowing when exactly your spell will finish.
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Postby Cirath » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:58 pm

Disoputlip wrote:Unholy word is special though.


Special in the sense that 95% of the time, it is worthless? I am curious if there will be spells to affect the ethos half of alignment (dictum and word of chaos) to make up for the major lack of targets for some spell lists (evil clerics and anti-paladins in particular).

And speaking of clerics, will turn undead remain a spell, or will it be moved to a class ability? Also, will evil clerics rebuke rather than turn, and neutral clerics choose one or the other at creation? Finally, will spells like flame strike and harm actually be respectable damage, allowing the cleric to back up his bark with a bit of bite?

I'm not sure why I went off on a cleric tangent, but this seems as good a place as any for it.
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Postby Eilistraee » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:16 pm

While the controlling mechanism may change...


12/03/04 [Eilistraee] Smorgasbord
- New Innate: Turn Undead (Cleric/Paladin) - replaces the spell. Details in helpfile.
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