Toril 2.0: Magic

Cirath
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Postby Cirath » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:04 am

Well, that's what I get for not playing in so long, I guess.
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:21 am

Swift, immediate, full-round cast time spells?
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Postby Eilistraee » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:55 am

I don't want to seem to be ignoring anybody, but any specific details I will leave for Shevarash to announce as he's ready.

I'm trying to answer where I can with generalities, which while I know they can be aggravating I also don't want to overstep any announcement schedule he may have.
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Postby Disoputlip » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:45 pm

Cirath wrote:
Disoputlip wrote:Unholy word is special though.


Special in the sense that 95% of the time, it is worthless? I am curious if there will be spells to affect the ethos half of alignment (dictum and word of chaos) to make up for the major lack of targets for some spell lists (evil clerics and anti-paladins in particular).

And speaking of clerics, will turn undead remain a spell, or will it be moved to a class ability? Also, will evil clerics rebuke rather than turn, and neutral clerics choose one or the other at creation? Finally, will spells like flame strike and harm actually be respectable damage, allowing the cleric to back up his bark with a bit of bite?

I'm not sure why I went off on a cleric tangent, but this seems as good a place as any for it.


When I said special then I mean't in casting time. I had no oppinion about the power of the unholy word spell.

The balance in unholy word lies in that although evil clerics may not be able to hit a lot of mobs, then those mobs also can't hit the cleric.

Unholy word is a 7th circle spell like full heal. so you never mem it unless you want to do align or solo stuff.

Rewriting the spell would benefit mobs a whole lot more than it would benefit players.
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:55 am

I'd like to see clerics get the power they actually have in D&D. Sure, on the mud their job is healing, but clerics got some pretty nasties ..druids too, in their lineup

also I could have sworn someone said cleric/druid silence was gonna be addressed. Cleric PC vs. cleric NPC is a nightmare..if (un)holy word were to deafen and cause 50% chance of spell failure, that'd rock. I think thats how it is in pnp but don't recall..
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Postby Cirath » Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:03 am

Disoputlip wrote:Unholy word is a 7th circle spell like full heal. so you never mem it unless you want to do align or solo stuff.


For clerics, yes, it is. For APs it is 10th circle (as well as an effect on what is intended to be their signiture weapon), and shares that circle with only one other spell that is also only effective against good alignments. No matter which you prepare, the drawback is the same.

Disoputlip wrote:Rewriting the spell would benefit mobs a whole lot more than it would benefit players.


I never said anything about rewriting the spell. I suggested providing more occasions to use it by providing more good aligned encounters and zones. I also suggested that ethos related spells be added in the new spell lists (which, of course, would require a change to the alignment system, but since everything else is being changed anyway, what's one more thing?)

Thilindel wrote:I'd like to see clerics get the power they actually have in D&D. Sure, on the mud their job is healing, but clerics got some pretty nasties ..druids too, in their lineup


Yes, please. Sign me up. Clerics on the mud are a shadow of what they are in pen and paper (though, in truth, they could very well outshine mages if they became too much like their tabletop counterparts.)
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Postby Mirlantharn » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:11 am

Prior to my comments about 2.0 magic, I just want to mention to Gantoris that it is exactly that reason for which I haste my hitters, including the tanks, as far as I'm able to within a fight. I've had multiple Hail Mary's by hasting my tanks, even against fire or cold shielded enemies, than not.

Now, on to the show...

I'm very much anticipating some of the proposals, and dreading others.

1) as for counterspelling:
Just _how_ many double dragonscales, and other combinational spells, have people seen since the ability to do so was implemented? Over the past year and a half, I myself have double dragonscaled perhaps 20 times. Mostly because of the lack of a second enchanter within the group, but compounded also by the timing requirement. Seriously, group leaders, just how many times have you wanted to have a second enchanter in your group? Sheverash, you are totally correct in saying that it isn't working well, if at all.
As mentioned earlier, exactly how are casters (not to mention hitters trying to interrupt enemy casters) supposed to know which enemy is casting the spell? ("5.evil wizard starts casting "Prismatic Spray".)

2) the new prepare command:
I spend a LOT of time connecting without a client, and thus aliases are not always available to me. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but "mem" is a LOT easier for me to type than "prep". Moot point? Well, when having to quickly move from the room and rearrange spells to deal with a new threat that my tanking buddies require me to deal with, it is a big deal to correctly type that and fast. Perhaps it would be better to have just allowed us to mem, but if rearranging spells to have the prioritize command automatically also fill an unused spell slot as well as prioritize it?

3) the replacement of meditation:
So, all spells already having been memed and used do not get a penalty of requiring the full time per that spell to be memed. Hrm. Sounds more like a penalty, considering something has newly come to the combat party in the room I just left and need to quickly return to keep my tanks alive, and since I'm having to rearrange spells to handle that newcomer, I'm going to take longer? I'd rather have the chance of halving the mem time, with my meditation maxed.

4) the sheer number of spell slots:
Well, this just reinforces the requirement of all intended casters to put their int to 100, _without_ exception; unless you want to be an ineffective caster and expect to not be invited into groups. Really, group leaders, are you going bring along the caster that has two 10th circle spells, or the caster with eight?
(Assuming that we even can get that many with the new system. Currently we only get four.)
Also recall that as a caster, your total ability is tied (almost utterly) to the number of spells you have. Hitters don't have this restriction, they can hit for hours, if not days. (Assuming that all involved are getting healed.)

5) the "overspelling" of spells:
This is something that I find most restricting when playing both NWN and tabletop D&D3.5, the fact that you are _totally_ inable to "empower" a tenth circle to make it not require the verbal component or some such. No offense, but why shouldn't I be able to make it non-verbal? I could with all the other circles below it... For those of you thinking "overpowered", for a handful of spells I'd be inclined to agree, but not for all of the 10th circle spells. And D&D and NWN's requirement of it being memed in a higher spell circle, that just limited my overall output abiliity by 2 spells at the least.


Really ponder these things for a moment before you attempt to dismiss them as just some caster player ranting, and trying to tear these arguments to shreds. Consider my viewpoint, that all the years I've played upon this mud I have consistently advocated that casters should be good at what they do, but not be overpowered. There have been numerous times that I've stated that something proposed by players was too powerful, and that I'd be MORE than willing to see it not implemented or implemented with a lesser strength.


Now, onto the good parts...

1) the spell number "plenty, possibly even more spells than you have now":
Yes! I'm all for it, with a caveat; as long as they are NOT just restrings. This is something I fought with the (at the time, future) staff of Homeland about, and they actually lived up to my expectations very well. Planewalkers on Homeland had some of the best _new_ spells that I had seen for some time. They were different, they were unique (on occassion also applied to other disciplines but not overly done so), and they were refreshing. Yes, that was the first and ONLY time I've ever had an alt: Sorcerer and Planewalker. Of the spells there; Group Relocate, something I had no knowledge of until it was introduced, was nice... but personally it was too well done, as that it very nearly replaced moonwell. I had mentioned later, when I finally was able to cast it once, that it should have had restrictions: chance of failing badly ("Hey, what are we all doing in the back of Cave City?" and also "Wait, what do you mean we're scattered across the zone?"), size limit, required consent, or something.
All I ask is that the effects be unique.

2) rare spells:
Ties together with my first benevolent comment very tightly. YES! I'm going to enjoy this greatly! Again, as long as the spells are unique enough, I'll be happy. Also, make whatever side-effects be unique, please!

3) spell components:
Yes, I actually would like to see more spells with these requirements. It's more in keeping with what I envision spellcasting as being. A handful (not alot) of spells requiring material components, please! Too bad mages don't get a component belt with different compartments within it. Also, being tied and gagged by the enemy and still being able to cast some spells; oh la la!

4) spell failure removal:
Hrm. Yeah. Thanks. But I myself would have liked something tied more with the number of times I have (ever) cast the particular spell. Something like being able to not fail a prismatic spray cause of having cast it 1,000 times in my lifetime, but that power word kill that I only cast once before..... Oh my, the enemy sure didn't like the sound of that one.

5) acquiring quest and rare spells:
Yes! I'm all for it! "Oh Adventuring we go, adventuring we go...."

6) touch and ranged spells:
Yes! Finally. I can understand not being able to chill touch that enemy cause my tank is in front of me in the 1way room, but I should still be able to get a PWB off!

7) spell casted critical:
Um. Eh? Yes, I'd like it, but...... little overpowered, possibly?


Food for thought:
Eliminating timesinks? hrmmm? How about a command to say what you'd be doing (in town if renting) while you're actually logging off, instead of scribing it? Such as: "I'm going to study that new spell"

Ok, time to wrap this up for now....
Eagerly awaiting but with some reservations,
Mirlantharn
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Postby Guardias » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:20 pm

Hrrrm well you were talking about 10th circle spells and not being able to empower, silent cast, etc. them however if feats are put in I would'nt bet against some epic feats (for level 50; maybe one per character) will be put in. One such epic feat gives you spell slots above 10th in tabletop D&D so I'd hold out hope for some similar system.

Also in regards to touch spells; if they put in feats I would'nt bet against the feats that allow touch spells to be cast as ranged touch spells.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:30 pm

Mirlantharn wrote:Seriously, group leaders, just how many times have you wanted to have a second enchanter in your group?


Wait, you're complaining that group leaders never want TWO of your class in the group? Cry me a river.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:03 pm

Mirlantharn wrote:Really, group leaders, are you going bring along the caster that has two 10th circle spells, or the caster with eight?

The guy with two 10th circle spells would also have a significant hit point advantage, assuming he minned his Int in favor of Con.

How good are eight spell slots if you die after the first one is cast? :)
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Postby Disoputlip » Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:39 am

I can see a few problems with the touch spells:

1:
Mages cant hit anything, and therefore they will just stop using the spells.

2:
Casters with high crit rate gonna own with these spells. That could be a player (ogre shaman) or mobs: giants, demons, dragons etc.
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:34 am

Touch AC is remarkably, almost laughably low for most things. How hard is it to touch a dragon? Not very hard at all. Unlike normal AC, Touch AC actually goes DOWN the bigger something gets. Your dragons, giants, tarrasques, and other colossal beasties are practically auto-hit.

Just don't try to touch a wraith ;)
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Postby Cirath » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:50 am

Disoputlip wrote:Casters with high crit rate gonna own with these spells. That could be a player (ogre shaman) or mobs: giants, demons, dragons etc.


Assuming that 2.0 follows tabletop in this area, crit rate will be based on the weapon type, or enhancement to said weapon, rather than some amalgam of stats. As such, all spells (or, rather, all capable of crits) would have about a 5% chance to crit.

But then, this is all guess work.
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Postby Gantoris » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:17 am

Cirath wrote:
Disoputlip wrote:Casters with high crit rate gonna own with these spells. That could be a player (ogre shaman) or mobs: giants, demons, dragons etc.


Assuming that 2.0 follows tabletop in this area, crit rate will be based on the weapon type, or enhancement to said weapon, rather than some amalgam of stats. As such, all spells (or, rather, all capable of crits) would have about a 5% chance to crit.

But then, this is all guess work.


Bingo Cirath. Crit range of a 'touch' attack is a natural 20 or in a d100 sense as you say, a 95-100. 5%

Disoputlip: Crit range has nothing to do with race, class, or stats. The only things that can increase a crit range are weapon type (some weapons crit more often then others) and magical enhancments or feats that effectively increase the crit range of a particular weapon or attack.

Examples:

Fist/Touch Attack: 5%
Longsword/Greatsword: 10%
Greataxe/Warhammer: 5%
Scimtar/Shortsword: 15%
Kukri/Rapier: 20%

If I take the 'Improved Critical' feat for a particular weapon or have the 'Keen' enhancment put on a weapon of mine I can effectively double my crit range modifer.

Keen Kukri would mean you could crit 40% of the time! But keep in mind that there are loads of creatures that are immune to critical hits. Several examples:

Undead
Elementals
Oozes, Slimes, and Plants
Golems and Constructs (machines)
Certain spells and armor enhancments give a 20% to 100% immunity to critical hits.

So a fighter with a 40% crit range on their rapier is cool IF they arn't immune to crits :D

Also, spells can ONLY crit when the spell requires an attack roll to hit (ranged touch or melee touch. Exampes 'scorching ray' or 'chill touch')

It all balances out in the end.

~Gantoris
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Postby Sarell » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:21 am

With regard to preparation time being long for spells you have just added to your spell slots I can see a bit of a problem. At the moment I hardly ever change my spell slots in a zone so I can't see a need to increase change duration with regard to fun gameplay. I do change my spell slots when I am helping someone out with a moonwell, gating, spiritwalking, or spelling someone up. It seems a shame to me to throw a timesink in on all these occasions when you are essentially stopping to help someone out. Sometimes I'll change my spell slots as a druid to accomodate the weather or environment or combatting a particular mob, but not with any regularity.

With regard to the question, will Sarell get an innate touch bonus, it's not an innate, touch is currently a 'hidden skill' much like flee and getressed. In toril 2 when we can see all the stats and what they do, I expect my touch skill to be similar to that of your average everyday level 60 ranger, which isn't bad for a druid.
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:17 pm

Kukri and Rapier crit on 18-20, which is 3 rolls or 15%.

And it's actually less than that, because you still have to confirm the critical. Without getting too much into detail, I just wanted to state that it's not REALLY possible for someone to be critting on 40% of their hits ;)
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:00 pm

Actually, you need to throw in Keen and that feat that improves your crit range. So you start with 18-20, get a keen weapon for 16-20 and take the feat for 14-20.

I think I've seen 12-20 before too, but not sure how...

Anyway, once you're getting into that kind of crit range you're getting a chance to crit every time you hit because those are the kinds of numbers you need to roll for a hit anyway.
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:45 pm

Keen and Improved Critical no longer stack, as of 3.5 edition. You used to be able to get a rapier down to 12-20, but that's no longer possible without very specialized, non-core abilities.

Also, threat of a critical doesn't guarantee a hit. If the monster's armor class is 30 and you have a +11 to hit, you still need to roll a 19-20 to hit the monster. Even if your crit range is 15-20, rolling 15-18 is still a miss.
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Postby Cirath » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:14 pm

Of course, a mage could concievably take improved critical: ray (or touch), but it would be pretty late in the character due to the prerequisites. I find myself wondering if such a thing will be allowed with this, and other feats (like weapon focus).
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Postby Mirlantharn » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:23 am

Sarvis,
I was referring to the part about casting a double dragonscale upon someone, which _requires_ a second enchanter, and to the rarity now of there ever being a group with two enchanters within it. So, thanks for proving my point.
And it would be nice to occassionally have a second enchanter within the group, especially with some of the newer spells (particularly a semi-recent quest spell) when I suddenly get told that I'm having to cast that 10th circle spell upon the _entire_ group. Only in that instance, then yes I'm crying an ocean, because you weren't along to help.

Ragorn,
How good is the rest of the group if the enchanter only got 2 dragonscales for 3 tanks and 3 hitters, and apparently the direction of Toril 2.0 is for mages to not be meming out of fights anymore (if I've not missed my guess)?

-the "on via telnet" and holding his own enchanter,
Mirlantharn

PS, when was the last time that you went zoning with a full group and you were not using a client?
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Postby Ambar » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:37 am

Mirlantharn wrote:Sarvis,
I was referring to the part about casting a double dragonscale upon someone, which _requires_ a second enchanter, and to the rarity now of there ever being a group with two enchanters within it. So, thanks for proving my point.
And it would be nice to occassionally have a second enchanter within the group, especially with some of the newer spells (particularly a semi-recent quest spell) when I suddenly get told that I'm having to cast that 10th circle spell upon the _entire_ group. Only in that instance, then yes I'm crying an ocean, because you weren't along to help.

Ragorn,
How good is the rest of the group if the enchanter only got 2 dragonscales for 3 tanks and 3 hitters, and apparently the direction of Toril 2.0 is for mages to not be meming out of fights anymore (if I've not missed my guess)?

-the "on via telnet" and holding his own enchanter,
Mirlantharn

PS, when was the last time that you went zoning with a full group and you were not using a client?


I love ya Mir, but .. my enchanter is only lvl 47, with 2 scales and I OFTEN solo enchant high end zones. I keep 3 tanks scaled blurred globed and 3 hitters globed and hasted :) Plus I try to keep me and 2 clerics at least stoned with tells for di/fly/reduce from the other members of the group. If I am asked to scale all, so be it :) thats why I picked the class, the obscene business :)
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:25 pm

Mirlantharn wrote:Ragorn,
How good is the rest of the group if the enchanter only got 2 dragonscales for 3 tanks and 3 hitters, and apparently the direction of Toril 2.0 is for mages to not be meming out of fights anymore (if I've not missed my guess)?

Well first, we have no idea how many top-end spell slots an Enchanter is going to have at 70 int or 100 int. Shevy has said there will be "more" slots, so how would your opinion change if even a mage with 70 int had 4 scales?

Second, dragonscales is not a D&D spell. In all likelihood, dragonscales is going to go away, and stoneskin is going to turn into damage reduction and not damage negation like it is now. Stoneskin in D&D gives the target damage reduction 10/-, which means each hit does 10 less damage (flat reduction) until a total of 10xlevel damage has been absorbed.

Combat is going to CHANGE. There will be plenty of buffs to go around, but one of my major assumptions is that tanking ability is finally going to rest on the skill of the FIGHTER instead of the skill of the ENCHANTER. So your ideas about what a caster NEEDS to operate are probably going to change as well... don't expect "max int" to be the default way to go anymore. Don't get me wrong, more spells is never bad, you just have more things to actually consider in D&D. Higher Con also boosts your Fortitude save, which is traditionally the achilles heel of many casters.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:17 pm

Mirlantharn wrote:Sarvis,
I was referring to the part about casting a double dragonscale upon someone, which _requires_ a second enchanter, and to the rarity now of there ever being a group with two enchanters within it. So, thanks for proving my point.


Try have a bunch of skills no group wants, then get back to me.
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Postby Gantoris » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:00 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Combat is going to CHANGE. There will be plenty of buffs to go around, but one of my major assumptions is that tanking ability is finally going to rest on the skill of the FIGHTER instead of the skill of the ENCHANTER. So your ideas about what a caster NEEDS to operate are probably going to change as well...


Bing!Bing!Bing!Bing!Bing! Ragorn wins a prize!

I think you hit it RIGHT on the nose with this comment Ragorn.

The entire game AS WE KNOW IT mechanics wise is going to change from how it is. It is safer to make assumptions based on 3.5 than commenting on how differant changes will impact "how we do it now".

I'm with you, the days of spells that make you invincible for a number of rounds is over. We are in the era of damage reduction! BUT now stoneskin will protect against critical hits by shaving off either a set HP value or perhaps a percentage of the damage taken rather than ignoring all regular damage but getting NAILED by a critical hit (clerics around the realms are happy about this no doubt!)

Who's to say every wizard in the party won't have at least a stoneskin or two prepaired? (well, obviously not the specialist wizards that banned the school stoneskin is in :P) But if specializing is anything like D&D no wizard is pidgeon-holed into their opposed 2 schools of magic, you get the PICK! A big advantage to this system will also be that Shevy and the Staff would not have to 'balance' 4 seperate spell casting classes. Just balance the spells and let the PC's go to town! Perhaps specialist wizards just get bigger bonuses to casting spells of their specialist class. Perhaps they get some cool level 50 only bonus or spell or something. Or perhaps like cleric domains, wizards of a specialist school get some 'specialist ability' that grows with them! Like a Conjurer would have something like a totem they can call on, evokers could swap out a spell for a bolt of arcane magic in a pinch, necromancers could lifetap or something.

Fighters are going to be so danged bad-ass through... Wizards and Clerics are no doubt going to be very powerful, but melee is going to rock too.

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Postby Lilira » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:31 pm

Ragorn wrote: Second, dragonscales is not a D&D spell. In all likelihood, dragonscales is going to go away, and stoneskin is going to turn into damage reduction and not damage negation like it is now.


Meh.. hope it doesn't go away. It is a fairly difficult quest spell to obtain. Change the way it works sure. Make stoneskin a (pulls numbers out of her ear) 20% damage reduction and scales a 35% reduction or something, but removing it would be annoying considering what people had to go through to get it.

Shev has stated a couple of times that its "based on D20", not by rote, so there is room for many of the spells in the mud that already exist to remain, just change.
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:04 pm

Yeah, it's entirely possible scales will remain. Shev said there would be a ton of "rare spells," so who's to say dragonscales won't be one of them?

Really, the point is, it will likely be damage reduction and not "temporary invincibility." Changing scales to a 35% damage reduction IS a big change in the way battles are conducted.
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Postby Teshidee » Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:27 pm

groups with 2 enchanters have always been a rarity :)
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:51 pm

In regards to losing quest spells:

You will not lose your work. Some spells WILL be removed, but they will ALL be replaced with another quest spell of equivalent power in the new system.
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Postby flib » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:42 pm

so what if you choose evoker or something and x out i dont know.. umm necro and transmute and yer soloing somewhere and a rare necro spell drops. is there a system to not allow this ie. only rare spells of yer class can drop or would you be crap outta luck? im thinking crap outta luck..
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Postby Cirath » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:52 pm

flib wrote:so what if you choose evoker or something and x out i dont know.. umm necro and transmute and yer soloing somewhere and a rare necro spell drops. is there a system to not allow this ie. only rare spells of yer class can drop or would you be crap outta luck? im thinking crap outta luck..


I expect it would be the same as if a rare piece of equipment that was barred to your race dropped. You would find someone with a spell you wanted to spare, and trade it, or give it to some random person with the proper school allowances, or sell it, or duck pond it, or whatever.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:57 pm

Mirlantharn wrote:Seriously, group leaders, just how many times have you wanted to have a second enchanter in your group? Sheverash, you are totally correct in saying that it isn't working well, if at all.


I always desire more than one Enchanter. Major paralysis and prism rock the house. Some of my best groups have included 3 enchanters and a rogue. However, of late, I am lucky to get even an elementalist, since it seems that there's almost never more than one enchanter on and the one that is on is either AFK or already grouped. Increasing the supply of abjurers (nee enchanters) is of paramount importance if we wish to see more zoning done.

That said, my ideas are not exactly conventional with regard to group composition.
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Postby Lilira » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:35 pm

flib wrote:so what if you choose evoker or something and x out i dont know.. umm necro and transmute and yer soloing somewhere and a rare necro spell drops. is there a system to not allow this ie. only rare spells of yer class can drop or would you be crap outta luck? im thinking crap outta luck..


Since it will be on a scroll, you should be able to trade/sell/give to anyone.

I'm HOPING this won't turn into something like EQ2 where you can't trade stuff like that. *shudder*.

Oh and Mori.. we're (enchanters) around. We just hide really well. *wink* Oh and I wouldn't subject a group to my crappy enchantering, I play the class for fun to twink stuff. I can't wait to see what the changes will have in store for the mages.
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Postby Birile » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:49 pm

Lilira wrote:I'm HOPING this won't turn into something like EQ2 where you can't trade stuff like that. *shudder*.


Actually, EQ's version of !drop is kinda nice IMHO and having that sort of system here may keep a lot of people from camping that rare to get it for the umpteenth time only to trade it away...
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Postby Birile » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:53 pm

flib wrote:so what if you choose evoker or something and x out i dont know.. umm necro and transmute and yer soloing somewhere and a rare necro spell drops. is there a system to not allow this ie. only rare spells of yer class can drop or would you be crap outta luck? im thinking crap outta luck..


What I'm curious to know is whether these rare spell drops are going to drop on completely random mobs, or if it's going to be the same mob (or 2 or 3) that drops a particular spell. I kinda like the idea of completely random mobs dropping random spells that are appropriate for the mob level. The element of surprise would be pretty neat.
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Postby Cirath » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:22 pm

Birile wrote:What I'm curious to know is whether these rare spell drops are going to drop on completely random mobs, or if it's going to be the same mob (or 2 or 3) that drops a particular spell. I kinda like the idea of completely random mobs dropping random spells that are appropriate for the mob level. The element of surprise would be pretty neat.


*Homer voice*

Mmm... random treasure generation.

*/Homer voice*
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Postby Birile » Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:48 pm

Will we get a sneak preview of the full spell list available to Wizards and Clerics?

Too, will we get a sneak preview of the various and sundry other casting classes (ie. Bard, Battlechanter, Druid, Shaman, Paladin, Anti, Dire Raider, Ranger) and their associated spell lists?

Replying with "see the D&D 3.5 PH" will suffice if the Toril 2.0 list will exactly mirror the spell lists there. :)
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:47 am

Not yet, and no, it will not mirror those lists. :)
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Postby Zoldren » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:49 pm

So.. i have a couple questions.

"There are also a few new ways to target spells, such as specifying a character's equipment slot or specific worn piece of gear. "

So disentegrate so'n so's 'vorpal pink spork of slavery' in the arena? :P

"In this way, spell collecting becomes an integral part of the game and separates the novice spell casters from the highly learned. As a side note, spellbooks are now tied to their caster and cannot be transferred or taught out of - so everyone must collect their own spells. "

I can see this with bigger /quest spells.. but basic spells... so we're saying we can't RP a master invoker for instance can not have a apprentice invoker and teach them mundane spells as they see fit? (i understand of loaning of books) but like for me I used to sit in the mage tower and teach newbies ;0


"There should be more to melee than meatshields. Thinking that there shouldn't be is why there's so many disaffected rangers hanging around. "

you mean like invokers now?
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Postby Kordon » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:35 am

why would you pass up an invoker, aren't they the mage class that causes the most damage?
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:56 am

Kordon wrote:why would you pass up an invoker, aren't they the mage class that causes the most damage?


Magic has a chance to resist. Melee doesn't really. :P
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Postby moritheil » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:27 pm

Ragorn wrote:Kukri and Rapier crit on 18-20, which is 3 rolls or 15%.

And it's actually less than that, because you still have to confirm the critical. Without getting too much into detail, I just wanted to state that it's not REALLY possible for someone to be critting on 40% of their hits ;)


Bless Weapon. All criticals threatened automatically land on someone of the opposing alignment. Paladin and Blackguard (antipaladin) only, of course, and the spell doesn't have a terribly long duration. And it will only be in if the staff approve it. I just want to point out that it can be done, though by the time you get around to putting all that in just to do it, you're talking about devoting lots of resources to achieving your desired effect - so much that it may not be worth it in many cases. (That's how a lot of things are balanced in 3.5.)

I should point out for anyone just joining the discussion that in Toril, we always laugh at the uselessness of holy word and its derivative spells, but in 3.5 it is an absolute killer, allowing no save. Often it is better to be hit with disintegrate than holy word. That's how nasty it can be with the right build backing it up.

Regarding Invokers in 3.5, some of their best spells are actually utility rather than direct damage. Tactical control spells (wall of force, wall of fire, wall of ice, forcecage, resilient sphere, etc.) and spells like contingency are all very good even if their damage is subpar or nonexistent. I don't know if that quirk is going to be removed or toned down so they can focus on damage.
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Postby Kordon » Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:56 am

i don't think that those spells (which have a tactical advantage on a table top map) would be of very much use tactically in toril. There are certain advantages in table top that i just don't think you can have in a text based game.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:06 pm

Kordon wrote:i don't think that those spells (which have a tactical advantage on a table top map) would be of very much use tactically in toril. There are certain advantages in table top that i just don't think you can have in a text based game.


Wall spells would be pretty hard to properly implement, but forcecage and resilient sphere would be easy - they would take a mob out of the fight and make it unable to be harmed for the duration. All the coders would have to do is make a "stasis" effect flag that works like BOUND but also grants immunity to everything.

Contingency is pretty easy to implement as well - just trigger it off hit points. We already have lots of commands, like AGGR and WIMPY, that work off your hit point total.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:40 pm

Actually, here's a couple ideas for wall spells in a text based game:



1) Casting wall randomly selects X mobs and keeps them out of combat for 1 round. New mobs are randomly selected every round that the spell is active. X is determined by the strength of the spell, so for instance Wall of Force would keep out 1 mob, Wall of Iron would keep out two or something like that. No mob who is currently being attacked by a player can be kept out of combat. Esentially this simulates putting up a wall and everyone jockying for position around it.

2) Wall is cast on an exit, and prevents anyone from using that exit. (Would probably need to be limited to mobs and/or party members to prevent griefing.) The advantage here would be to prevent extra enemies from wandering into a fight, and to prevent party members from accidentally fleeing into a dangerous room if, for instance, they need to mem out.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:42 pm

Ragorn wrote:Kukri and Rapier crit on 18-20, which is 3 rolls or 15%.

And it's actually less than that, because you still have to confirm the critical. Without getting too much into detail, I just wanted to state that it's not REALLY possible for someone to be critting on 40% of their hits ;)


Well, with Improved Critical it's 16-20, and Keen makes it 14-20. That's 30%, but given you usually need to get that to hit anyway you're threatening a critical most of the times you actually hit anything.
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Postby Cirath » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:32 pm

Sarvis wrote:Well, with Improved Critical it's 16-20, and Keen makes it 14-20. That's 30%, but given you usually need to get that to hit anyway you're threatening a critical most of the times you actually hit anything.


Improved critical and keen don't stack. In fact, no two effects that increase your ability to critical will stack.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:11 am

Cirath wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Well, with Improved Critical it's 16-20, and Keen makes it 14-20. That's 30%, but given you usually need to get that to hit anyway you're threatening a critical most of the times you actually hit anything.


Improved critical and keen don't stack. In fact, no two effects that increase your ability to critical will stack.


Is that a 3.5 rule?

Here's what Improved Critical says in 3.0:

"Keen" magic weapons also double their normal, nonmagical threat range. As with all doubled doublings, the result is triple. a magic longsword with a doubled threat range in the hands ofa character with Improved Critical (longsword) would have a threat range of 15 through 20 (six numbers: 2 for being a longsword, +2 for being doubled once and +2 for being doubled a second time).
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Postby Cirath » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:36 pm

Sarvis wrote:Is that a 3.5 rule?


Yes.

Excerpt from the Improved Critical text: Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.

...and the full text of the Keen weapon enhancement: Keen: This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.) This benefit doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).

Impact enhanced weapons and the keen edge spell have the same caveat.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:24 pm

Interesting. One more reason to dislike 3.5 then. :P
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:05 pm

Sarvis wrote:Interesting. One more reason to dislike 3.5 then. :P


Oh please. 3rd edition was fucking terrible, like a beta version that never should have been released. It's like they didn't even bother to proofread the spells, especially the shapeshifting spells (polymorph, shapechange). The sizing rules were arbitrary and stupid, and half the magic items were either horribly priced or outright broken.

The only thing 3.0 did right that they shouldn't have changed in 3.5 was damage resistance. The DR system in 3.5 is really bad.

It was stupidly easy to get a huge threat range in 3.0. A Fighter/Weapon Master/Disciple of Dispater with Improved Crit using a scimitar as his favored weapon would crit on a 6-20 for x3 damage. I'm pretty sure I can get down to 3-20 or even 2-20 if I dig around the 3.0 books, but I think the point's been made. Preventing threat range modifiers from stacking prevented characters from critting every time they hit a monster with their weapon, which was a pretty stupid state of affairs.
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