Toril 2.0: Experience & Death

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Toril 2.0: Experience & Death

Postby Shevarash » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:55 pm

Gaining Experience

Experience is gained the same way as it has always been - by killing npc's. There are several major changes to the way this works in 2.0:

1) Experience Split - Goodbye Grouping Penalty

Rather than split the total amount of experience gained from each kill, the entire group involved in the kill now receives a full share. That is, whether the group consists of 1, 5, or 15 members, all members receive the exact same amount of experience. This change does not negatively affect solo experience, but it does provide a bonus when adding more people to the party, as the party can now kill faster and safer without sacrificing any individual experience gain. It should be noted that there are measures in place to prevent power-leveling which I won't go into here.

2) Equal Experience Tables

There is now one experience table which all classes use. This means that all classes will level at the same rate as every other class - no more rocketing past your caster in the same exp group. The new experience table is a careful balance somewhere in between the old melee and priest tables. It is the goal for experience to be faster on average with these changes, so the experience table will be adjusted if need be.

3) No More Damage Experience

Damage experience is no longer a method of receiving experience. All experience will now come from the kill of an NPC. This is part of the effort to balance out experience gain between all the classes as well as recognizing that there are many worthwhile tasks in combat besides damage to be rewarded for. This way, all participants receive their experience so long as they are in the room at the time the NPC dies.

Experience Debt

Player characters no longer lose experience upon death.

Instead, PC's acquire an experience debt upon dying equal to about 1/4 of the total experience needed to gain their next level. From that point on the character automatically pays 50% of their experience gained to pay off the debt, but the other 50% is gained normally. This means that experience progress is never lost or halted, but rather slowed down as a result of dying. The lack of an experience loss also means that a character's attributes such as feats, skills, or spells are never lost.

There is one little catch though - at level 50, there is a maximum amount of experience debt that one can acquire before being dropped down to level 49. When this occurs, the character will temporarily be unable to access all of their level 50 abilities until the debt is repayed and they regain their previous level This prevents level 50 characters from operating without regard to death and debt once they hit the highest possible level. Of course, this maximum debt threshold for level 50 is very generous, and not something that will be exceeded often.

Death

1) Death Fatigue

Resurrection fatigue has been replaced with death fatigue.

Death fatigue is automatically gained upon death and consists of having all of your ability scores set to half of their normal amount. Your scores then begin regenerating and will be back to normal after about 10 minutes. While this is certainly a penalty to your character, it is nowhere near as oppressive as the old res penalty. Due to the changed nature of ability scores, your character will still be able to move around, prepare spells, and engage in combat while under death fatigue - they just won't be receiving their full bonuses and thus operating at peak effectiveness. And there are several ways to deal with eliminating the death fatigue...

2) Resurrection Spells

Toril 2.0 features three resurrection spells, all of which return the player to their corpse as well as negate a varying amount of both experience debt and death fatigue as well The breakdown is as follows:

Raise Dead: This 5th circle spell eliminates 20% of gained experience debt and death fatigue.

Resurrect: This 9th circle spell eliminates 80% of gained experience debt and death fatigue.

True Resurrection: This 10th circle spell requires a very expensive component and eliminates 100% of gained experience debt and fatigue. In addition, this spell completely heals the target and re-prepares any spells they may have lost due to dying.


Conclusion

These changes to experience and dying are clearly a very radical departure from the current system of overbearing penalties and harsh grinding. It has been our goal to remove unnecessary time sinks while still retaining a challenging game and we believe this is the first big step in the right direction. We also hope this will be of great benefit to newer players who will feel the sting of that first death lessened somewhat with the knowledge that their work has not been irrecoverably lost. This will also help people get through the grinding part of the game faster and get on to the great content that zoning and questing has to offer.

It should go without saying, but these changes have not yet been player-tested and are subject to significant tweaking up to and during final implementation. All comments and discussion are welcome.

One last thing - there will also be a new Trophy system which will be addressed in a separate post.
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Postby Birile » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:59 pm

You must've silenced all of the people who wanted a change to experience gain, Shev, 'cause no one's commented on this and it's been almost 24 hours since you posted it. :lol:
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:02 pm

No, it's only been available in the public forum for an hour or two. I start posts in a private forum and then move them here when I'm done. :)
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:19 pm

WOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Umm.. that's all I can say through my sheer happiness....
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:40 pm

Oh!! I have a question Shev?

How will this affect pet casters and grouping with them for soloing?

Most people don't tend to like to group with pet classes. :-(
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:57 pm

Lilira wrote:How will this affect pet casters and grouping with them for soloing?


Well, since everyone gets a full share of exp you no longer have to worry about the pet snatching a share away from a player. This should make pet-centric classers much more desired for grouping. In other words - the more the merrier.
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Postby Birile » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:08 pm

Lilira wrote:Most people don't tend to like to group with pet classes. :-(


Speaking solely for myself, neither my elementalist nor my necromancer like to group with other people, not the other way around! :twisted:
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Postby Birile » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:11 pm

Does this mean we'll have pets/followers/etc. who gain exp/levels?
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:29 pm

No, that's not something that's planned at this time. I only mean to say that the pets you have with you while doing experience will not be taking anything away from you or your group.
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:14 pm

Does this mean that if we don't get to our corpses immediately (before death fatigue runs out) we'll still get XP debt back?
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:58 pm

Lilira wrote:Does this mean that if we don't get to our corpses immediately (before death fatigue runs out) we'll still get XP debt back?


Yes, that's correct. You can only get fatigue reduced while under it's affects, but you can always have the debt associated with a particular corpse reduced via a resurrect spell.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:58 pm

Lilira wrote:Does this mean that if we don't get to our corpses immediately (before death fatigue runs out) we'll still get XP debt back?


Yes, that's correct. You can only get fatigue reduced while under it's affects, but you can always have the debt associated with a particular corpse reduced via one of the resurrect spell.
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Re: Toril 2.0: Experience & Death

Postby Dalar » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:00 am

Shevarash wrote:Experience Debt

Player characters no longer lose experience upon death.

Instead, PC's acquire an experience debt upon dying equal to about 1/4 of the total experience needed to gain their next level. From that point on the character automatically pays 50% of their experience gained to pay off the debt, but the other 50% is gained normally. This means that experience progress is never lost or halted, but rather slowed down as a result of dying. The lack of an experience loss also means that a character's attributes such as feats, skills, or spells are never lost.

There is one little catch though - at level 50, there is a maximum amount of experience debt that one can acquire before being dropped down to level 49. When this occurs, the character will temporarily be unable to access all of their level 50 abilities until the debt is repayed and they regain their previous level This prevents level 50 characters from operating without regard to death and debt once they hit the highest possible level. Of course, this maximum debt threshold for level 50 is very generous, and not something that will be exceeded often.


OK so let's say I'm lvl 25.25 and I die. I am at lvl 25.25 when I re-enter game. To get out of debt, I have to do 50% of my level at which point I will be back at level 25.375. Is this right? So technically I lose 12.5% of my level if I die rather than the current 25%?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:51 am

Uh, no, that's not at all right. First of all, you're not losing anything, and that's an important distinction to make. Yeah, you're paying exp off into a debt, but you haven't lost your level or your skills and your forward progress is never halted.

Now in your example, when you are level 25.25 and you die, you now have to gain 50% of your level to completely pay off your debt, which would put you at 25.75 had you not died.

Once you factor in that 50% of that exp gained has gone to debt, you have actually gained 25% of your level, putting you at 25.50. Your "loss", or exp paid to debt is .25, or 25% of your next level.

Does that make sense?

Also, for what it's worth, this system is very visible to the user. You can see exactly how much experience you are gaining, how much of it is going to debt, and how much total debt you have.
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Postby Lilira » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:38 am

Is there a toggle for those of us who aren't that concerned with numbers?

Or is that only something you see when checking your char sheet?
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
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You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
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Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:31 am

I guess it's "a loss" to me because I lost the potential to get to the next level faster. I do see the benefit though in that you maintain your current level.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ragorn » Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:47 am

More or less the same debt system as City of Heroes. Yes, you "lose" experience points in that some of the experience you earn while you have debt evaporates rather than progressing you to next level. But yeah, at least you don't lose levels and such.

Edit: Oh, also... if you lose 50 and go to 49, will you ever drop below 49? Or, after a nasty Tia run, is level 49 the worst you can expect to end up?
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:48 am

Same system as AC1 too I think. Been a while.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Lilira » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:10 pm

and EQ2 for the debt.


And the Death Fatigue is like LOTR... stats are dropped and a chunk of your health is unavail until you're out of fatigue.

I'll take xp debt over xp LOSS... There's usually 25% of my level where I sit there mindlessly killing things so if I die I don't loose the level. That hasn't worked on a few of my chars though. Loosing spell circles because of death is annoying.

And hopefully good bye failed resses?
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
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Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:19 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention that.

You can no longer fail a resurrection.

The thinking behind that being - why double penalize a character for dying? If you die, you get your debt and your fatigue, and you can take care of it with three different spells. Unless you spend the money for a True Res, you are stuck with at least 20% of that debt, and that should be punishment enough.
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Postby Demuladon » Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:12 pm

These Xp changes sound good.

With removal of damage xps, will mobs death xp be changed? ie will mobs be run through a "Mob calculator" to standardize xp they give?
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:28 pm

Yes, the exp per mob has been adjusted and standardized and is now calculated by the MUD itself when the mob is loaded - rather than being loaded from the area files.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:51 pm

Standardized? So exp zones that have aggressives have no benefit compared to easy exp zones like DS?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:01 pm

Dalar wrote:Standardized? So exp zones that have aggressives have no benefit compared to easy exp zones like DS?


Wow, that's an impressive leap!

It's calculated, probably from a bunch of mob statistics that determine the mobs difficulty. If it's aggro, it's probably considered more difficult and therefore worth more.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:10 pm

Dalar wrote:Standardized? So exp zones that have aggressives have no benefit compared to easy exp zones like DS?


That's not at all what I meant, no. I mean that it is a consistently assigned value coming from algorithms within the MUD, rather than just reading a value from the area files.

There are many elements that determine how much exp a mob is worth, agrressiveness is one of those. As for zone-wide experience bumps, I haven't gone there yet as I'd like to wait and gather a little data with the new system before resorting to that.
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Postby Sarell » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:15 am

Under this system a zone like izan's or musp that give good exp due to lots of high level mobs would give massive amounts of exp comparing to zones focusing on other styles of fights. Will there be a trophy system as we know it?
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Re: Toril 2.0: Experience & Death

Postby Callarduran » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:35 am

Shevarash wrote: One last thing - there will also be a new Trophy system which will be addressed in a separate post.
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Postby Inames » Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:09 am

mmmm easier xp for caster classes, *CHEERS WILDLY* :P personally id rather lose 5% xp on a successful ress as it is known than lose 10% in the long run (on a ress not the true ress) but not losing levels would be an advantage, it will make it so that groups can do tia easier cuz they arent gonna lose 5 levels by the time they get to tiamat and be at a large disadvantage.

will we be able to check our current xp debt? and will there be an easier way of watching xp progress rather than seeing 0-99%? actualy numbers like most games have would be nice, like you are currently at ### xp and you will gain your next lvl at ### xp or have it say you need ### xp to gain you next lvl. thats always been something i hated here...

but it sounds pretty good, if its gonna be easier for mages to get xp it will probably balance out the xp debt on death when you compare it to current mage xp tables. great job shev and all the staff, as usual your doin a great job, keep it up guys i cant wait till we get to play 2.0
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:08 pm

Inames wrote:will we be able to check our current xp debt? and will there be an easier way of watching xp progress rather than seeing 0-99%? actualy numbers like most games have would be nice, like you are currently at ### xp and you will gain your next lvl at ### xp or have it say you need ### xp to gain you next lvl. thats always been something i hated here...


You can see the exact numbers of both your debt and experience with the 'exp' command. I also currently have it set to display the numerical exp/debt you receive/pay when a mob dies, but that may change or become a toggle.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:26 pm

Like damage numbers, I think that stuff is best left to a toggle rather than being "always on."
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Postby Guardias » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:44 pm

I'm really looking forward to 2.0, and while being somewhat impatient (this is the # month?) I am willing to wait for something that looks this interesting.
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Postby Inames » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:42 am

Shevarash wrote:
Inames wrote:will we be able to check our current xp debt? and will there be an easier way of watching xp progress rather than seeing 0-99%? actualy numbers like most games have would be nice, like you are currently at ### xp and you will gain your next lvl at ### xp or have it say you need ### xp to gain you next lvl. thats always been something i hated here...


You can see the exact numbers of both your debt and experience with the 'exp' command. I also currently have it set to display the numerical exp/debt you receive/pay when a mob dies, but that may change or become a toggle.


nice :) im liking 2.0 more and more every time i look at the forums, having it set as a toggle would be good, i know alot of people would prefer to see xp the current way, but ive always prefered exact numbers when i level characters on games. again, thanks for all the hard work your putting into it and i cant wait to play when 2.0 finally gets released.
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Postby Jhorr » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:55 am

How does the debt work when you die multiple times before 'paying it off'? For example, what if I die 20 times during a Tia run? How would that work?
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Postby Corth » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:41 am

At some point you file for bankruptcy and have your debt discharged.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:35 pm

Jhorr wrote:How does the debt work when you die multiple times before 'paying it off'? For example, what if I die 20 times during a Tia run? How would that work?


Your debt simply accumulates. If you're level 50 and you die too much without paying off your debt, you will get dropped down to 49. Otherwise, you simply gain more and more debt but do not lose any levels/skills/feats/spells/etc.
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:35 pm

Thanks for posting and replying so much, Shev. It's good to know what's coming up with 2.0.
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Postby grundar » Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:12 pm

you should not go into exp bonuses for zones, leave everything to the algorythms that add the tracker, aggressive, global tracker, stacking, classed etc bonuses per mob, otherwise you'll end up having the same problems you have now: 10k people crammed into cm/ds and never leaving the place cause its "the best exp"

hell with all expzones giving the same on average (all things equal), i'd much rather find me a zone where i could kill unencumbered by other exp groups killing thus exploring the mud.

it will turn out to be obvious that the best exp will be zoning, and one could certainly zoneedge there to exp and get good amounts of it, however there's a lot more challenge and death risk involved there which balances out.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:22 pm

Dalar wrote:I guess it's "a loss" to me because I lost the potential to get to the next level faster. I do see the benefit though in that you maintain your current level.


I see what you are saying. In a strict sense it is a loss. I think Shev's point is that compared to the current system you aren't losing anything.


Best XP from zoning, though . . . wow. That's really going to make zoning recovery much less of a chore.
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