Toril 2.0: Sorcerers

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Toril 2.0: Sorcerers

Postby Shevarash » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:40 pm

New Class: Sorcerer

The Sorcerer is a new class for Toril 2.0. Although the name is familiar to long-time Sojourn/Toril players, this is a totally new class built from the ground up and based on the d20 rules.

Sorcerers cast the same Arcane spells as Wizards, but they do so in a different fashion. While Wizards learn their art by studying and preparing spells from books, the Sorcerer channels their power from within. Often reputed to be descended from draconic heritage, Sorcerers are very powerful natural spell casters, but can only learn a small number of spells relative to the Wizard. Sorcerers also receive proficiency in all simple weapons, giving them a slight edge in melee combat over Wizards and their sub-classes.


Sorcery

Learning Spells

Sorcerers can learn any spell from the Arcane spell list, just like a Wizard. However, the sorcerer has a limited number of slots per spell circle for spells known and cannot ever know more spells than they have slots. Slots are gained at a steady rate every time the character levels, and spell selection is handled through the new "spells" command. Each time the character levels they may also swap one known spell for a different one of the same circle. Essentially, every Sorcerer creates their own spell list by selecting a number of spells from the Arcane list.

Sorcerers can pick common spells direct from the Arcane spell list, but must acquire scrolls to learn more exotic spells - just like Wizards.

Casting Spells

Sorcerers do not need to prepare spells ahead of time. Instead, they have a set number of spells per circle that they may cast per day. At the end of every day those slots are refreshed and the Sorcerer's spells are fully recharged. In this way, the Sorcerer can react quickly to new situations without having to stop and swap out their spells.

Metamagic

While Wizards apply metamagic feats to their spells while preparing them, Sorcerers can apply metamagic at the time of casting a spell. Metamagic changes the circle of the spell, so the resulting spell will use a spell slot of the newly adjusted circle. This gives yet more versatility to the Sorcerer's spell list, and even allows them to cast modified versions of spells whose base circle are already exhausted. For example, if all 5th circle slots are taken up, the Sorcerer can no longer cast a stoneskin - but they can cast an Empowered stoneskin, which takes up a 7th circle slot. The power to mix and match spells and metamagic feats on the fly makes the Sorcerer class a very different experience than playing a regular Arcane caster.

Heritage

While Sorcerers have traditionally been rumored to be descended from Dragons, in reality the sorcerous ability comes from sharing heritage with any number of innate magic wielding races. In Toril 2.0, Sorcerers will have access to Heritage feats which will give them special abilities particular to their chosen bloodline.

It works by first picking a bloodline feat - such as Draconic Heritage - which will grant a small bonus and unlock all of the other heritage feats for that bloodline. You may then choose as many or as few Heritage feats as you wish, and at least 5 per bloodline will be available. These are feats just like any other and use up a regular feat slot. Of course Sorcerers are free to ignore this option and do not have to spend their feat slots on Heritage if they choose not to.

Here's a few of the bloodlines that will be included:

- Draconic: Can gain the ability to fly, a small breath weapon, elemental resistances, and more.
- Infernal: Can gain superior vision, a sonic howl attack, and more.
- Celestial: Can gain a powerful positive energy attack, imrpvoed saving throws, and more.

Summary

Sorcerers are an exciting new class for Toril 2.0 that use an entirely new system for learning and casting their spells. Their instant spells and metamagic abilities combined with Heritage feats form a class that can be highly customized and versatile, but is balanced by their limited number of spell slots per day. This class should be a lot of fun to play, and is a great fit for people who don't like the more studious approach to magic that Wizards and their ilk use.

All comments and questions are welcome.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:43 pm

How are you balancing metamagic feats with Sorcs? In tabletop, Sorcerers (and all other spontaneous casters) require a full-round action to cast spells affected by metamagic feats. Will Sorcerers on Toril take longer when casting meta spells also?
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:57 pm

In the current 2.0 version they do take a small casting time penalty for applying a metamagic feat to a spell. However, I'm not entirely convinced that this is necessary in Toril, and it may be removed after beta testing.
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Postby Raiwen » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:03 pm

What's is meant by this "per day" stuff?

Are you saying we can't do these 30 minute zones in 30 minutes anymore? More like 24 minutes per room?
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:14 pm

Raiwen wrote:What's is meant by this "per day" stuff?

Are you saying we can't do these 30 minute zones in 30 minutes anymore? More like 24 minutes per room?


Sorcerers get a set number of spell slots per circle every MUD day, and get them all back at midnight every day.

If you rely completely on Sorcs for a zone and expend all of their spell slots on each room, then it might take longer. However there are also Wizards and their specialty classes to use for arcane damage. It would be wise to mix and match rather than relying on just one type of caster for damage.

Also you get a lot of slots every day, and that number can be tweaked. And keep in mind that Sorcerers can do some melee damage as a fallback when they are out of spells.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:25 pm

Bleh. Never liked sorcerers in D&D, they feel like a cop out for them wanting to go to a mana based system but not wanting to piss off wizard fans.

The heritage feats do sound interesting though, and I'll have to wait and see if Toril Sorcs are better balanced than D&D ones are (in my opinion.)
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Postby Lilira » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:53 am

Will there be familiars?

Will they be able to use ranged?

Will they be required to use components?
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:04 pm

Ah, ok. I missed the part about Sorcerers quite literally using a "spells per day" system while Wizards remem on command. That's a very interesting distinction, and I'm curious to see how the balance is going to work.

Leveling up a Sorcerer sounds like a real bitch though. You hit level 21 and get access to 5th circle spells, but you can only cast 2 of them (or whatever) every 24 minutes. Unless you get a crapton of spells per day, it seems like it could be pretty arduous.

On the other hand, you don't have to mem... so you could blow down 10 mobs in 10 minutes and then go make yourself a sandwich or chat on ooc... I dunno.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:14 pm

Sarvis wrote:The heritage feats do sound interesting though, and I'll have to wait and see if Toril Sorcs are better balanced than D&D ones are (in my opinion.)


I agree that stock 3.5 Sorcs have some balance problems, and I've tried to address that. Heritage feats are a big part of this, as is tweaking the number of spells per day they can cast and spells they can know. I think this class has a lot of potential as long as it's not treated as just another arcane class with a different spell prep mechanism.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:16 pm

Lilira wrote:Will there be familiars?


Not initially, but I'm planning on adding them in a post 2.0 update.

Lilira wrote:Will they be able to use ranged?


Everyone can use any weapon. Sorcerers will be automatically proficient in all simple weapons, which includes a sling, and can choose a bow/crossbow proficiency feats if they choose to.

Lilira wrote:Will they be required to use components?


Yes - Sorcerers still require material components to cast certain spells.
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Postby Birile » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:23 pm

Cool.

However... not to sound like a jerk, but... why are you giving us the information on an entirely new class rather than telling us what types of changes are coming for all of the other classes that are already in the game that have thus far been completely ignored? You said months ago that you'd be giving us those details soon...
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:24 pm

Birile -

Sorcery ties into some existing class changes and I couldn't really talk about sorcerous magic without bringing up Sorcerers themselves, so I figured it was best to do it in this order. There will be more information on existing classes very soon...
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:10 pm

Shevarash wrote:Everyone can use any weapon. Sorcerers will be automatically proficient in all simple weapons, which includes a sling, and can choose a bow/crossbow proficiency feats if they choose to.


Wait, how is a sling more simple to use than a crossbow? :?

Any idiot can use a crossbow (though not necessarily well) but if I tried to use a sling I'd probably hurt myself!
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:26 pm

Who knows. There's a list of simple weapons, and the sling is on it :)
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:35 pm

Shevarash wrote:Birile -

Sorcery ties into some existing class changes and I couldn't really talk about sorcerous magic without bringing up Sorcerers themselves, so I figured it was best to do it in this order. There will be more information on existing classes very soon...


*cough*
liches, rangers
*cough*
monks!

just admit they're coming. it's 3.5 afterall!
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:49 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:
Shevarash wrote:Birile -

Sorcery ties into some existing class changes and I couldn't really talk about sorcerous magic without bringing up Sorcerers themselves, so I figured it was best to do it in this order. There will be more information on existing classes very soon...


*cough*
liches, rangers
*cough*
monks!

just admit they're coming. it's 3.5 afterall!


Agreed... well, except maybe for the liches part. *duck*
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Postby Cirath » Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:32 pm

Ragorn wrote:Who knows. There's a list of simple weapons, and the sling is on it :)


Yeah, but so are light and heavy crossbows.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:54 pm

Cirath wrote:Yeah, but so are light and heavy crossbows.


You're right, I misspoke. Here's the current list of "simple" ranged weapons:

Heavy Crossbow
Light Crossbow
Dart
Javelin
Sling
Throwing Dagger


I must have been thinking of the Repeating and Hand crossbows, which are Exotic weapons.
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Postby Itasha » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:49 pm

Hand crossbow, yummy!

So few feats slots to come, so many to choose from.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:01 pm

Hrm, completely off topic but: How about having level 50 quests to allow players to add a feat slot?
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Postby Taka » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:34 pm

What do you expect the ratio of "sorcerer spell slots per day" to "wizard spells slot per mem" be (even a rough estimate)?

One of the thing I worry about is that most spells that are % fail (blind, wither, ray, contagion, conjure elemental, ...) as well as those of the caster current highest circle (assuming we keep the possibility of failing those) would end up to be bad investments for sorcerer. This is from playing a bard (how often do you see bard cast ray? do you ever rely on bard to ray?).

Similarly, for spells that gets typically cast a lot during fights and where the caster currently tend to mostly battle-mem and focus mostly on a single spell (e.g.: stone/dscale) and/or for which the fight won't succeed/proceed without (for small group this may mean feeble/para/...) the sorcerer would only be an acceptable solution if he gets a freaking lot of spells slot per day (or if you happen to have a pretty lucky one for the second scenario).

A related question: For a sorc picking haste, how many people can he keep hasted permanently (That is recast when it goes down)?


The other question I have is with reguards to the effectiveness/usefulness of the weapon profficiency. They will be better than wizard with weapons is what I read. Does that mean they will be able to be of similar effectiveness level as a warrior with the weapons (but limited to single wielding and no second attack and the like) or that instead of missing 95% of the time they will miss 90% of the time? How will their damage output compare to bard (signing heal, or some other !boosting song) and wielding an instrument? As loosy?

The reason I am concerned by that is that unless it has somewhat decent damage output, the wizard who spend some of his time meming will be much more effective for most typical scenarios:
- group where he can battle-mem (or worst case group wait for him which can be acceptable if enough casters are present)
- solo fighint (tracking mob could theoritically be an issue but if they have elemental, undead, shades,... that's probably not a worry).

While the sorcerer seems like it may turn out easier to level at low level (which most of the people on these boards probably don't care enough since they can do that in a matter of hours through over powered equipment or power leveling) but be of limited use in group and potentially at higher level. This could be a good newbie trap: they get on it since it is better then they start and after spending a month (or more) leveling it realize no one care to group with them unless that's the only available person. I assume you will make sure that is not the case?

Given that they already will have a more limited number of known spells and therefore less flexibility in terms of adapting to the scenario (including finding a nich to fill in the group), how will we make sure they can be useful to groups? There is also the question of spells that are great in group/zone but useless when soloing or exping (and the opposite). And the biggest worry those of you who just like to hang out at 50 talking about your awsomeness should worry about: what if some spells get changed for balance or what not and you happen to have it (nerf) or not (boost)? what do you do then? Examples of these:
- remember when area for !invoker got nerfed?
- I used to play shaman, then their stun got nerf badly... havent used shaman much at all since (it limited solo ability quite a bit and bard can often fullfill the group role with less need to micro manage).

Had I built a sorc around such spells (area damage and damage with stun), would I have to retire it or could I fix it to adapt to the new gameplay rules? Similarly how will we help people "test" the heritages before making the ultimate choice? And what if they someday get "rebalanced"?


Concerning spells recovery, I have 3 concerns related to it being fixed at midnight:
- a number of spells/races have higher effectiveness during night time. For groups using those, it may be more convenient to have a different timing (either to focus fighting during night or to use spells during day to compensate for the lesses effectiveness)
- at low level, the "fight cycle" (target finding, preparation, fight, recovery) tends to be much faster (less time) than at higher level. Given that, would it make sense for the spells recovery rate to be different? If I am new to the mud, I get 2 magic missiles, and I can't cast more then 1/12 minutes on average, I would probably move on to somewhere else. Funny enough, with eq that most of you would not bother picking up, one can probably get to level 4 in 1h. How many spells would you expect people to cast during that time (and remember if they fail...)?



Anyway, these are the various concerns I have.

One the positive side, I think if balanced well, they could end up being very fun to play (especially if you make familiar later and you make them fun/special).
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Postby Lilira » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:59 am

Also Shev?

Will a mage class be able to convert to sorc or do we have to roll from scratch?

(Sorry if someone else asked and I missed it.)
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:00 am

It'll be very interesting to see Shev's take on the Heritage feats.

Ragorn wrote:I'm curious to see how the balance is going to work.


For those who don't play 3.5 (I know you do), I should point out that Sorcs in 3.5 get MORE spell slots than Wizards. So even though you might not be able to remem on command, presumably you'll have more spells in your pool when fully charged. I'm guessing that's the balance.

Leveling up a Sorcerer sounds like a real bitch though. You hit level 21 and get access to 5th circle spells, but you can only cast 2 of them (or whatever) every 24 minutes. Unless you get a crapton of spells per day, it seems like it could be pretty arduous.


1. Sorcs are known for getting a lot more spells per day.
2. Even if you only get a couple of spells, you can always pick something lasting, like Summon Monster V. Sorcs are all about careful spell selection.
3. Heritage feats should improve survivability (granting energy resistance, flight, etc.) A living sorc with only 3rd-level spells is still better than a dead wizard.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:54 pm

Taka wrote:What do you expect the ratio of "sorcerer spell slots per day" to "wizard spells slot per mem" be (even a rough estimate)?


Sorcerers will have more overall slots than wizards by a significant margin. That's the best I can give you at the moment.

Taka wrote:One of the thing I worry about is that most spells that are % fail (blind, wither, ray, contagion, conjure elemental, ...) as well as those of the caster current highest circle (assuming we keep the possibility of failing those) would end up to be bad investments for sorcerer. This is from playing a bard (how often do you see bard cast ray? do you ever rely on bard to ray?).


Well, first of all there are no spells with a random % to fail anymore. Everything is based off of your spell/caster level and the opponents saving throw. There are also feats you can take which will increase your spell level for a chosen school/subschool of magic to further increase your odds. That said, picking the right kind of spells is still important for a Sorcerer, and if they are going to pick something that has a significant chance to fail on common targets it would be wise to invest in feats and items that boost that spell's effectiveness.

Taka wrote:Similarly, for spells that gets typically cast a lot during fights and where the caster currently tend to mostly battle-mem and focus mostly on a single spell (e.g.: stone/dscale) and/or for which the fight won't succeed/proceed without (for small group this may mean feeble/para/...) the sorcerer would only be an acceptable solution if he gets a freaking lot of spells slot per day (or if you happen to have a pretty lucky one for the second scenario).


Sorcerers are not intended to be a substitute for Wizards, and you are correct that the role of "primary continuous protection spell caster" is probably not best for a Sorcerer, although they could certainly help out with those duties.

Taka wrote:A related question: For a sorc picking haste, how many people can he keep hasted permanently (That is recast when it goes down)?


Haste functions much differently in 2.0, and I don't think this will be a problem. A Sorc could easily be the party haster.

Taka wrote:The other question I have is with reguards to the effectiveness/usefulness of the weapon profficiency. They will be better than wizard with weapons is what I read. Does that mean they will be able to be of similar effectiveness level as a warrior with the weapons (but limited to single wielding and no second attack and the like) or that instead of missing 95% of the time they will miss 90% of the time? How will their damage output compare to bard (signing heal, or some other !boosting song) and wielding an instrument? As loosy?


Sorcs do not get the Base Attack Bonus of a Warrior and thus can never be as effective as they are in combat. However, with some feat and equipment investment combined with combat-boosting spells a Sorc could be made into a formidable melee opponent, although this would require sacrificing some magical ability. Don't get me wrong - a Sorc will never be a substitute for a true melee class, but they could certainly contribute meaningfully, and it gives them something to do when their spells run out for the day...

Taka wrote:The reason I am concerned by that is that unless it has somewhat decent damage output, the wizard who spend some of his time meming will be much more effective for most typical scenarios:
- group where he can battle-mem (or worst case group wait for him which can be acceptable if enough casters are present)
- solo fighint (tracking mob could theoritically be an issue but if they have elemental, undead, shades,... that's probably not a worry).


Wizards have the advantage of battle memming, and a larger spell list. Sorcs have more versatility in how they cast their spells, however. A Sorc in a large fight can convert every single one of his spells into a metamagic variant of a damage, utility, or protection spell, whereas a Wizard would have to prepare each of his spells in that fashion, which is of course impractical as it leaves the Wizard unable to adapt to changing circumstances.

As for solo fights, Heritage feats can greatly contribute to a Sorc's survivability and offensive output.

I certainly see the point you are trying to make, and I think the problem is that you are considering Sorcs to be just another Wizard sub-class, when in fact they will have a different role and be played very differently than a normal Mage. I predict this will be somewhat of a niche class that is played by people who enjoy role playing (the Heritage aspect is great for that) and heavy character customization.

Taka wrote:While the sorcerer seems like it may turn out easier to level at low level (which most of the people on these boards probably don't care enough since they can do that in a matter of hours through over powered equipment or power leveling) but be of limited use in group and potentially at higher level. This could be a good newbie trap: they get on it since it is better then they start and after spending a month (or more) leveling it realize no one care to group with them unless that's the only available person. I assume you will make sure that is not the case?


If the class were not useful at high levels it would be considered imbalanced and would be addressed quickly.

Taka wrote:Given that they already will have a more limited number of known spells and therefore less flexibility in terms of adapting to the scenario (including finding a nich to fill in the group), how will we make sure they can be useful to groups? There is also the question of spells that are great in group/zone but useless when soloing or exping (and the opposite). And the biggest worry those of you who just like to hang out at 50 talking about your awsomeness should worry about: what if some spells get changed for balance or what not and you happen to have it (nerf) or not (boost)? what do you do then? Examples of these:
- remember when area for !invoker got nerfed?
- I used to play shaman, then their stun got nerf badly... havent used shaman much at all since (it limited solo ability quite a bit and bard can often fullfill the group role with less need to micro manage).

Had I built a sorc around such spells (area damage and damage with stun), would I have to retire it or could I fix it to adapt to the new gameplay rules? Similarly how will we help people "test" the heritages before making the ultimate choice? And what if they someday get "rebalanced"?


There is a 2.0 system in place to allow all characters to change their customized options (feats, spells, ability scores, etc). Without gettign too into the details, this system will address your concerns completely. If we change spells significantly, you will have the option - free of charge - of changing your spell list to adapt. I'll try to go into this system in more detail in a subsequent post.;

Taka wrote:Concerning spells recovery, I have 3 concerns related to it being fixed at midnight:
- a number of spells/races have higher effectiveness during night time. For groups using those, it may be more convenient to have a different timing (either to focus fighting during night or to use spells during day to compensate for the lesses effectiveness)
- at low level, the "fight cycle" (target finding, preparation, fight, recovery) tends to be much faster (less time) than at higher level. Given that, would it make sense for the spells recovery rate to be different? If I am new to the mud, I get 2 magic missiles, and I can't cast more then 1/12 minutes on average, I would probably move on to somewhere else. Funny enough, with eq that most of you would not bother picking up, one can probably get to level 4 in 1h. How many spells would you expect people to cast during that time (and remember if they fail...)?


At low levels the Sorc will have more slots to work with, and when they run out - that's where those weapon proficiencies come in handy. In fact, there's nothing that says that a Sorc's damage output has to come from their spells - they could choose protection or combat boosting spells instead, and use their melee ability for damage.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:56 pm

Lilira wrote:Also Shev?

Will a mage class be able to convert to sorc or do we have to roll from scratch?

(Sorry if someone else asked and I missed it.)


Nope, you can't convert to Sorc. It's a whole new class that has to be rolled from scratch.
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Postby Aldira » Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:39 pm

Will Sorcerers operate off of Intelligence or Charisma?
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Postby Aldira » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:24 am

Are the heritage feats going to operate more like those found in Players Guide II (spend a spell slot), or something like Fiendish Codex I (always on)? Because I have to say I really don't like the way presented in Players Guide II.

If you expend spell slots on them, the feat might as well be, 'You can learn one additional spell that doesn't count toward your known spells limit, but it has to be (blah),' and isn't nearly as themey, since spells with very similar effects already exist. You could just play a wizard and cast the spells that make it look like you've got heritage feats instead.
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Postby Malvareth » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:39 pm

Sorcerers will have more overall slots than wizards by a significant margin. That's the best I can give you at the moment.


Glad to hear that, because it had me worried. I'm still slightly concerned that a balance can be found that won't screw over a sorcerer who tries to preserve his spells, yet doesn't make sorcerers the ultimate boss-damage with 25 10th level spells.

While engaged in serious grinding or strenuous zoning, how many times per mud day (24 minutes) do the current invokers, enchanters, illusionists etc. cast their various spell circles? Enchanters certainly have a lot on their plates, and invokers sometimes dump a ton of bombs in a very short time only to re-mem after (or during) the fight. A sorcerer's spell capacity should guarantee that he doesn't have to stand around for 18 minutes after casting his spells over the course of two battles, but at the same time he shouldn't be able to cast dozens of 10th circle spells back to back.

Or that's how I see it.
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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:31 pm

Aldira wrote:Will Sorcerers operate off of Intelligence or Charisma?


Charisma is the primary ability score for Sorcerers.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:36 pm

Aldira wrote:Are the heritage feats going to operate more like those found in Players Guide II (spend a spell slot), or something like Fiendish Codex I (always on)? Because I have to say I really don't like the way presented in Players Guide II.

If you expend spell slots on them, the feat might as well be, 'You can learn one additional spell that doesn't count toward your known spells limit, but it has to be (blah),' and isn't nearly as themey, since spells with very similar effects already exist. You could just play a wizard and cast the spells that make it look like you've got heritage feats instead.


You don't have to expend spell slots on our heritage feats, as I'm not a big fan of the heritage feats in 3.5 that just let you choose some different spells. The kind that give you some sort of activated ability (like dragon breath), or always-on benefits (like damage reduction) are the kind that you will find in 2.0. The objective is to give Sorcs unique abilities, not just give them access to more spells or the like.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:41 pm

Malvareth wrote:
Glad to hear that, because it had me worried. I'm still slightly concerned that a balance can be found that won't screw over a sorcerer who tries to preserve his spells, yet doesn't make sorcerers the ultimate boss-damage with 25 10th level spells.


Finding the right balance for Sorcs has been and will continue to be a challenge, but it's one I felt was worth undertaking. We will be watching Sorcs very closely when we go into beta and then again when they go live and will continue to tweak them until they're just right.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:30 pm

Shevarash wrote:
Malvareth wrote:
Glad to hear that, because it had me worried. I'm still slightly concerned that a balance can be found that won't screw over a sorcerer who tries to preserve his spells, yet doesn't make sorcerers the ultimate boss-damage with 25 10th level spells.


Finding the right balance for Sorcs has been and will continue to be a challenge, but it's one I felt was worth undertaking. We will be watching Sorcs very closely when we go into beta and then again when they go live and will continue to tweak them until they're just right.


So when is beta.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:32 pm

When it's ready.
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