Rumors regarding Miax, and the MUD being made public

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Rumors regarding Miax, and the MUD being made public

Postby Cyric » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:26 pm

A few days ago I received the following email from Kris (aka Miax):

Roy,

After some discussion with my wife Eileen, we are going to package and fully release the Sojourn3 code and areas to the public domain. Given that I was the sole legal owner of the Sojourn3 mud, we are within our rights to do so and feel it will be a fitting legacy to all the years of hard work we put into developing the game. Also, you guys have now had well over a year to distinguish yourselves as a more advanced version of the platform.

We will not be releasing Any areas or code that were in development - only the production mud at the time of the Sojourn3 code - which means no item/object system that you guys were building, and none of the new areas.

With that said, if there are specific areas that you or other area makers do not want to see released into the public domain, each maker should send me Email individually with the areas they personally built and don't want to see get out into the public. The majority of all areas however will be released, including all of my own zones and the zones of developers who have moved on to other persuits. I will honor those requests from individuals only, I will not accept any current forger claims to areas they
did not personally write.

Let me know your thougths on this, and if there are any conditions you would like to see placed on the mud. I cannot say I will honor them all, but I will consider them.

Regards,

Kris


My primary concerns with this email are:

1. Some people might be wont to cheat, specifically when it comes to quests and object stats, and I have therefore asked Kris if he would not make the quest files public. The object files aren't a biggie since every object was monkeyed with during the object revamp.

2. The areadocs specifically state that areas won't be released without the express permission of the makers ("we, the Forgers of Sojourn, hereby guarantee that your area will NOT be given to ANYONE for any reason"). All current makers will (per the above email) be asking to not have their areas released, but some of our older makers will be tough to reach. If any of you are still lurking out there, drop me an email at roysoto@yahoo.com to weigh in on the issue.

This is not the end of the world, and as Kris has stated, he WAS indeed the sole owner of S3, so he can do whatever he wants. We've made boatloads of changes in the areas (pretty much every single file) and code, so Torilmud is not being released, but S3 is. Shevarash is also in discussions with Kris regarding code issues, but I can't speak specifically to those.

So there it is...let the rumors die! Now go bash/kick/backstab something!

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Postby Corth » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:15 pm

Feh why release sojourn 3? If I want to play Sojourn 3 ill goto torilmud and pretend.

He should release the original toril code.. monks and sorc's et al. Let someone put up a retro toril. That would be kind of sweet.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Bilraex » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:47 pm

The orignial Toril code would rock, alot of fun could be had with that.
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Postby Lilithelle » Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:26 am

A toril clone would split the pbase, I don't think the old or new mud would profit from that.
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Kris > Cherzra

Postby Klandal » Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:28 am

How can Kris be thinking releasing S3 will be a fitting legacy for anything except one-upping Cherzra against his own MUD?

Cherzra leaked lots of quests and zone maps.
Kris will be leaking ALL those quests and zone maps and code for how everything works.

Yes, the stats on items are different, but as if things weren't bad enough with publicly-shared quest info, anybody who wants it can know any quest not created after the split. If people want to know if there are saves against certain mob procs they will be _certain_ of them now.

I'm sorry, but I can't see this as anything but selfish on his part. And taking his action against Cherzra for doing this exact same thing to an extremely lesser extent, I find this amazingly hypocritical.
Last edited by Klandal on Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rumors regarding Miax, and the MUD being made public

Postby Dalar » Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:29 am

Cyric wrote:
After some discussion with my wife Eileen, we are going to package and fully release the Sojourn3 code and areas to the public domain. Given that I was the sole legal owner of the Sojourn3 mud, we are within our rights to do so and feel it will be a fitting legacy to all the years of hard work we put into developing the game. Also, you guys have now had well over a year to distinguish yourselves as a more advanced version of the platform.



Dartan translation (tm):

After talking it with my master, we are going to zip up and release the Sojourn3 code and areas to everyone. Given that I backed up myself with some legal crap, we can do this yo! I feel it will be a fitting legacy in being legendary ass**les, to show I'm a huge cheater with an artifact, bratlii's pimp earring, and so much more. I only pray I can one up Cherzra, the man who helped half the noobs on the MUD figure out Hulburg, by being the king asshole Sojourn3 had ever seen! Also, you guys have a MUCH better version of the platform, that, may I add, is Kia/Miax/Mystraless.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Elscint » Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:49 am

Kris put in more years developing this mud than anyone, if he chooses to release his work regardless if his work still exsists in some other form that's his choosing... trying to crack back on him serves no purpose...
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Postby Dalar » Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:56 am

It's call forming an opinion Elscint. I'm sharing my opinion. You're sharing yours. This is how BBSes work. You will find a more detailed version of my translation in the general forum. Welcome!
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Tasan » Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:57 am

Hey alright, someone can finish Menzo!!!

!!x
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:01 am

yawn.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:48 am

lame.


I really didnt have anything against Kris before this, I hadn't villified anyone, but I can see some more of the the wisdom in Cyric/Shev's choice now.

well at least with this final blow we can really finally put these people behind us. however, i suppose he could be holding onto those few area files for some more drama in the future.

whee
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Postby Sarell » Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:42 am

That's kinda wierd and sad.
But on the legal side, wasn't ownership passed on in writing (the only way to pass on copyright) when the mud was passed to the 'new owners of the mud'?

The areadocs statement implies that the use of the zones, referred to as 'your' zones, were a license to be used on sojourn, not released.

"It will remain under tight lock and key at all times
* so that your hard work is not stolen and distributed all over
* the Internet. To that end, we accept responsibility for the
* security of any zone donated to us."
"
It says that both parties will stick to this statement. If it was big enough to ever be a legal shuffle, well.. it's pretty straight. The whole statement in the areadocs is a mess tho, it also says sojourn will retain copyright. Not Kris. However it implies that you are passing on copyright even tho this is different to what the 2 key statements are saying.

Anyhow, I'm pretty sure the announcement went along the lines of cyric/shev being th new owners of the mud?

"Given that I was the sole legal owner of the Sojourn3 mud" this is pretty wierd. The area docs also contained something saying that people would sign over ownership of copyright of zones (this was to Sojourn, no idea if sojourn was ever a legal body)

"Furthermore, you will be asked to
add a line to your zone file once the zone is ready to be moved to the
mainmud saying, in effect, that the file is copyright of Sojourn. "

(again the only way to pass on copyright). If people didn't do this, then the people who wrote the zones own them period. Simple, check for it in the zone file, if it isn't there no one has the right to distribute them at all technically.

Ultimately, it's just some sad internet geeky cherza type thing, no one legally would give a hoot. We'll deal. Won't matter when we get melee and exp tables fixed anyhow! :P Certainly what saves effect what etc will take away some of the magic, but if kris has the code he will post it, too bad. Definately a one up on cherz's effort tho. Not the most thoughtful way to preserve the code imho. Contact enough zone writers to get things not released maybe, but sticking to ones word doesn't seem to be carrying much weight.

In the spirit of the internet you could be childish, slap back, get cherz to write menzo in green ansi :P *duck rofl*, but really, woopee doo, seen enough tantrums, will keep playing, write some new zones instead. Contact enough zone witers to get things not released in order to preserve a few quests and make them still fun not just competitions for loads.
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Postby Wulv » Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:10 pm

I played Sojourn though the peak time back when Miax (then Lloth) and Mystra ruled the mud with an IRON fist. Back when some of our loved forgers were just meer mortals like the rest of us. Kris does have the right to do this. I don't know anything about the Chezra {sp} thing but regardless he does have the right. HOWEVER!

I do find it in EXTREMLY POOR taste to do this (IMHO). But having met Kris and Eilean in RL I sadly have to say this is par-for-the-course when it comes to BOTH of them. Again MY OPINION.

Yes it will hurt the mud as a whole BUT ONLY if people allow it. Things will be "unveiled" to some extent. SO WHAT...it's like a show on TV you don't like...don't watch it....you don't want the code out there....DON'T look at it then. That way things are still "mysterious" for you. You (as fellow players) can make this a SHOW STOPPER or you can make it a little speed bump that nobody really cares about and will be forgotten almost as fast as it appears.

Again...my opinions...
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Postby Shar » Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:26 pm

Lets not turn this into a flame Miax thing. If it devolves into that, I'll get out my editing shears. We all have a right to our opinion, but if yours is inflamitory, keep it to yourself or censor your words before you post them.

Thanks
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Postby Cyric » Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:40 pm

1. Opinions are good
2. Flames are bad
3. Over-reacting is silly

Just got this from Kris today in response to my request not to release quests:

Roy,

Definitely reasonable - I dont want to spoil your quests. I will only release quests for like 1 zone as an example, one of my own zones.

Does that work?

I am not opposed to releasing the thing with just my areas alone to be honest, and perhaps Cythons and a few others. I wont strip the code base to hell and back, but I will cut-down the number of areas and almost all quests.

Kris


So I think all will be well. Keepin' ya in the loop!

Cyric
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Postby Ihazim » Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:30 pm

shevarash's name should be changed to ihevarash so the forger pyramids acronym is CSI and we can call shev i have a rash
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Postby Grizz » Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:35 pm

Think of it this way. This mud has had a year to make significant changes to the code. If the Gods are comfortable in the work they have done then they have nothing to worry about. This code release is all old stuff, well at least a year old. He said he wouldn't release the works in progress so it would be like taking a step backwards.

The thing that might have an effect here is that people might start considering doing their own mud. Alter it as needed but definitly have a great base for starting. In a time when Graphic Muds rule the roost this might cause player bases to drop somewhat. That is a significant thing considering the already depleted playerbases of many muds.
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Postby Sarell » Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:23 am

In the interests of keeping everyone safe, I'd get Kris to okay it with Wizards of the Coast? If they don't like it they could have all areas pulled on both muds in a second. They okayed the use of their world for a mud, not GPL?

While legal action would ever become between our mud and Kris's codebase/game he wants everyone to be able to see, I have to wonder how the owners of Forgotten Realms would feel about making it available on a much broader level. Thinking about people using the code to release games that compete with theirs, not just muds.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:52 am

Sarell wrote:In the interests of keeping everyone safe, I'd get Kris to okay it with Wizards of the Coast? If they don't like it they could have all areas pulled on both muds in a second. They okayed the use of their world for a mud, not GPL?

While legal action would ever become between our mud and Kris's codebase/game he wants everyone to be able to see, I have to wonder how the owners of Forgotten Realms would feel about making it available on a much broader level. Thinking about people using the code to release games that compete with theirs, not just muds.

even if he released it for one day, which could do enough damage, could kris be sued?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Artmar » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:12 am

According to this line of reasoning, most people that that ever released a DIKU-based Mud to the public should worry (well, those that didn't do a complete change of all game-related mechanics). After all, the mechanics are based on AD&D system (str/dex/int/wis/con/cha 3d6 stats, thaco, ac, saves, stat modifier tables copied straight from player's handbook). So far i haven't seen WotC (and earlier TSR) reacting to that, so there's no reason to think it would be different in this case (also, all that would be needed to strip release of the FR theme would be to change few names - lot of the zones don't have anything directly with FR anyway).
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Postby Grizz » Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:40 pm

Are you kidding? Do you really think they would care about some obscure text mud with a player base of less than 200 folks. So the code is available to all those who want it. That can only help ailing RPG company by getting word of mouth out about their world and such. Sue him for that? He should get a commission.
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Postby Cyric » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:16 pm

I'd like to point out something to everyone that's worried that having code published will be a threat to us:

To run a successful MUD you need:

1) A professionally run staff of at least 5 people, preferably more. No "new" MUD won't have this immediately, and it takes a while for the right people to "gel" into a good governing unit, otherwise a place will degenerate into chaos (which is what we've all seen elsewhere over the past 10 years)
2) A machine to run it on. Not as easy as you'd think to come up with a dedicated machine that someone wants to up and donate
3) A dedicated and reliable internet-link. This is expensive and trust me, MUD geeks are cheap!
4) A strong core of players to get the thing kick-started. The reason Duris succeeded was that it offered the right thing at the right time: pkill. A big chunk of our playership wanted it and off they went. Adding monks isn't going to draw 50% of our playership away...if anything 5 to 10 people will be on at any one time, which'll piss them off, and bring them right back to us.

This will only be good for us...we can only look good in comparison. Do not fret. =]

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Postby Corth » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:25 pm

Preparing to cease fretting...
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Ensis » Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:55 pm

Ihazim wrote:shevarash's name should be changed to ihevarash so the forger pyramids acronym is CSI and we can call shev i have a rash


pwn
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Postby Ensis » Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:58 pm

Cyric wrote:Adding monks isn't going to draw 50% of our playership away...if anything 5 to 10 people to us.


5 to 10 people is 10-20% of the pbase :P prevent exodus. bring back monks!
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Postby tuh » Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:51 pm

Big deal..i dont see an impact. I know i'm going to download and start dissecting the code. Maybe load it up on my own box, advance myself to 50 and enslave all of Waterdeep in my iron grip.
tuh
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Postby Dalar » Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:26 pm

tuh wrote:Big deal..i dont see an impact. I know i'm going to download and start dissecting the code. Maybe load it up on my own box, advance myself to 50 and enslave all of Waterdeep in my iron grip.
tuh


there's a thread in general that already discusses why it's bad.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: Rumors regarding Miax, and the MUD being made public

Postby cherz » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:34 pm

Dalar wrote:
I only pray I can one up Cherzra, the man who helped half the noobs on the MUD figure out Hulburg, by being the king asshole Sojourn3 had ever seen! Also, you guys have a MUCH better version of the platform, that, may I add, is Kia/Miax/Mystraless.


I've told myself I'd never post again but reading this has pushed me to pick up the virtual pen once more.

Dartan, you have a slight idea of what you are talking about, but it's a wee bit lopsided. I understand your 'hating' me because you probably never read my side of the story like it was posted on the web at one point. Ergo, the abridged version: after I became an areas god, Miax took a special interest in singling me out as the sponge to soak up his renowned mood swings. Despite all my efforts to make this the best mud in the world and to stay well clear of him.

You probably didn't read the god BBS, nor did you see the one-way conversations on the mud, therefore all you witnessed was evil me releasing my quest info file and own zones. Something I did because it was a last resort. You see, there was another particularly nasty fit where Miax threatened me with all kinds of deletion because of a politically incorrect joke on the BBS. That joke was nothing, but I'm sure he relished in the opportunity. Anyway, deciding that enough was enough -this had gone on for several months- I publicly posted logs that showed this and more viciousness on the god BBS for all to see, asking him to finally get off my back and leave me alone to build zones and write other mud stuff.

Because I realized that without any support this post would quickly be deleted (so other gods could be prevented from seeing his behaviour), I backed it up with the warning that deleting it or myself would result in the release of my quest/zone files. Unfortunately for the mud, he did as I expected and this caused me to put up my zones and my quest/item file. I had a lot invested in this mud, believe me, so that post on the god BBS was no light decision. I was committed to writing zones, improving the mud and doing anything I could to such an extent that I could be labeled an S3 zealot. Do you really think I would jeopardize everything I had worked so hard on/for? Think about that please for a second before you label me like you did.

Had I still been here, there would now probably be an entire Moonsea region. The bell of the deep, a Marel zone, Hillsfar, Phlan and everything else around. Ah, the ideas and love I had. Alas, it was not to be.

So in conclusion, I do understand all the way you react. Hell I'd probably hate me too had I been just another player. But there's always two sides to every story.

Sorry to intrude here once again. This isn't meant to start any discussion and it's a one-time post. Go and have fun on the mud :) I'll just sink back into my swamp under my cozy rickety old bridge to lurk in the bog again...

Cherzra, decrepit old has-been
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:21 pm

Someone farted....
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Dalar » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:37 pm

Actually, I don't hate you at all Cherzra. I probably wouldn't have reacted the same way as you did, but I understand why you did it.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby kwirl » Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:03 am

any update on this scenario?
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Postby rer » Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:18 am

Any update here?
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Postby Innova » Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:50 pm

Does anyone know when/where the code/areas will be released?
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Postby kwirl » Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:35 pm

i think that this was just miax's attempt to get attention, or perhaps to solicit some form of invitation back to the community. i doubt that there is any validity whatsoever to this claim he made.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:57 pm

kwirl wrote:i think that this was just miax's attempt to get attention, or perhaps to solicit some form of invitation back to the community. i doubt that there is any validity whatsoever to this claim he made.


And what color is the sky in your world?
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Postby Imis9 » Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:25 pm

Bwue
rer
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Postby rer » Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:55 pm

In Kwirl's world, the sky must be Rose, just like everything else...

Pull off the rose colored glasses :P
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:16 am

Sesexe wrote:
kwirl wrote:i think that this was just miax's attempt to get attention, or perhaps to solicit some form of invitation back to the community. i doubt that there is any validity whatsoever to this claim he made.


And what color is the sky in your world?


I dunno about him, but for me it's lavender with bright yellow stripes!
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Postby Innova » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:09 pm

So it looks like this was just a rumor, that isn't going to happen?
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Postby Cyric » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:56 pm

Not a thing. Last I heard Kris and Mask were talking about opening a MUD of their own with some of our cast-offs, but that was many moons ago. Others I've asked (that I expected to be involved) know nothing either. So for now it's still just a weird rumor.
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Postby Innova » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:58 pm

Thanks for the update Cyric!
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Postby Kurtok » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:48 pm

In all reality, this was never an issue. Initially, Kris was actively involved in the MUD and its changes/happenings. As time went on, he just seemed to phase out more and more till he was nothing more than a figure-head, really. Many of his significant contributions to the MUD ended up being nothing more than big talk. *cough*Menzoberranzen*cough* Unless, of course, you were part of Kris' pet guild list *cough*Eye Aternum*cough* Actually, looking back on it all, Kris' most predominant contribution to the MUD (aside from hosting the server) was favoritism.<br>

I guess we can't really know what his long-term plans/goals were. If he was hoping to jump on the graphical MUD/MMORPG express train, he was sure late getting to that party. If he was hoping to get even with Everquest, good luck with that, for the same reasons. Was he just bitter at Toril/Sojourn for some selfish reason and he was gonna deal a final deathblow to satisfy..... something? From my experience with online users, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss that possibility.<br>

Granted, I would have loved to see the actual code that went into the game and delve into the inner workings of it all. Seeing the zone info, though, would completly de-mystify the game 'cause you would know it all then. After that, what would be the point? Nothing new to discover. In any case, yea, there never was any, nor will there every be any worry about the code going public. Did I happen to mention Menzoberranzen? :P[/code]
Wobb
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Postby Wobb » Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:00 pm

The truth:

Actually, none of this is a rumor. However, you can all lay your fears to rest as the dev team decided that they would rather spend their energy elsewhere.

Several months ago a friend of mine contacted Kris regarding the mud, asking what the plans were, if any, to continue the mud.

Being that we couldn't stand (no offense shev and company) some of the choices the administrative staff here have made with the general direction of the mud, we set out on a quest to do our own.

Kris backed the project, saying we could take Sojourn4 or whatever you wanted to call it, in any direction we liked. As we assembled our dev team and got things rolling, we realized how much work it was, and how much work on top of that it was to do things the way we wanted.

I personally split from the project in January, some communications got dropped and I think people just decided to let it slide, realizing we had other, better things to do.

So while I left torilmud with a bad taste in my mouth, I have to give kudos to the current team. Merging with homeland is an excellent idea, I hope it works out, Vhaerun is an excellent coder you are in good hands.

Running a mud is a LOT of work. And often for no appreciation from the people who login. I walked away from the game thinking they ruined what I used to call sojourn. But honestly, and you should all think about this, they are the only people keeping it alive.

Peace out,
Wobb
Ionari
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Postby Ionari » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:40 am

Corth wrote:He should release the original toril code.. monks and sorc's et al.


Berzerkers too! Bring them all back!
Io

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:38 am

Wow. Thanks for the explanation, Wobbling one!
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Postby kwirl » Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:55 pm

For years the crippling of MUD's of any sort have been fractures in the playerbase and general disenchantment of emotional attachment.

The ultimate best way to revitalize the MUD genre is going to be finding relative MUD's with a deflated staff and a fiercely loyal playerbase, and find ways to integrate them into our own community.

Perhaps we could offer their immortals low-level entry positions on the staff here, and after a duration of trial periods make them actual staff. Perhaps find out what their players loved about their game, and bring it to sojourn. Any areas unique to those games would be possibly integrated to sojourn compliancy, and we could find some way to make things easier for their players who are going to be jaded on experience - perhaps offer each loyal player who comes to sojourn a permanent x2 experience modifier for one character of their choosing.



There are a lot of dying MUD's in the cyberworld....perhaps we can bring some more life into our own by saving theirs.
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:13 am

Klandal wrote:How can Kris be thinking releasing S3 will be a fitting legacy for anything except one-upping Cherzra against his own MUD?


Cherzra had or has is own MUD?
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:38 am

Llaaldara wrote:
Klandal wrote:How can Kris be thinking releasing S3 will be a fitting legacy for anything except one-upping Cherzra against his own MUD?


Cherzra had or has is own MUD?


It took you nearly a year to post that response? New record. Slugs have you beat.
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Llaaldara
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:13 pm

Kwirl distracted me! :)

Yes I find Kwirl distracting.

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