The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

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The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby grundar » Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:57 am

starting this thread where proposed downgrades can be displayed lets try to keep bitching and flaming off it, if you have a counterpoint by all means point it. no fucking whining and no threatening to quit/delete. also this is not an ansi bitch thread and this is not a thread to request stun being fixed. it is also not a jealousy thread as _i wear most of the items listed here._

I'll start it off; first offender:

Item to be downgraded:
a heavy neckband with iron studs * ac10 0/3 * MAGIC NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Zone: Calimport Palace Vault (R) * Last ID: 1-4-09

Items in direct competition:
a blood ruby set on an adamantite pendant * Worn: Neck * ac5 0/3 9agil PR-GOOD * ANTI-GOODRACE NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Finder's (Q) * Last ID: 6-14-07 (Consider this item's equal but goodie version as well)
a glowing otherplanar neckguard * ac12 0/3 -4svsp DET-MAGIC * NO-CLERIC NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Zone: Soulprison of Bhaal (R) * Last ID: 4-16-04
the black steel amulet of the crescent moon * ac10 0/3 15hp SNEAK INFRA * Called Proc: 'Crescent Moon' Invisibility * MAGIC FLOAT NOBURN NOSUMMON NO-WARRIOR NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Tiamat (R) * Last ID: 1-7-07

why does it need to be downgraded? the answer is simple, it is just a rareload item in a zone that lasts 1 hour topps that is in direct competition with a spob heart item which gets oh say at least 12 bids + has random reward (sorta) and finder's which is a pretty long epic quest. it also competes with tiamat's crescent moon amulet although to a lesser degree (if you cant see this last one, try looking harder). understand that i am using the verb _to compete_ losely here please.

Proposed solution:
a heavy neckband with iron studs * ac0 0/3 * MAGIC NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Zone: Calimport Palace Vault (R)
it is still a mighty item with the downgrade and it lets finders retain some of its allure.
while we're on the subject of 3 dam neckwear and i have you checking stats this is another proposed downgrade
a glowing otherplanar neckguard * ac10 0/3 -4svsp DET-MAGIC * NO-CLERIC NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Zone: Soulprison of Bhaal (R)
it is a minor downgrade but seriously, ac12 makes no sense now and it didnt make sense then either.
ok on to the next offender


Item to be downgraded:
matte black drow chainmail sleeves * ac10 0/4 * MAGIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Global (Q) * Last ID: 12-28-08

Items in direct competition:
a set of flayed dwarfhide sleeves * ac12 0/3 -6svpet PR-FIRE * ANTI-GOODRACE MAGIC FLOAT NOBURN NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Bronze Citadel * Last ID: 3-3-06
a set of flayed demonleather sleeves * ac12 0/3 -6svpet PR-FIRE * MAGIC FLOAT NOBURN ANTI-EVILRACE NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Bronze Citadel * Last ID: 2-15-06
black iron sleeves with protruding razors * ac8 0/3 4dex * MAGIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Izan's Floating Fortress (R) * Last ID: 7-12-08
vermillion chainmail sleeves * ac10 2/2 * Called Proc: 'accelerate' Haste 1/2 days * MAGIC BLESS NOBURN NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Cloud Realms (Q) * Last ID: 8-7-07 (notice the tier drop, no real competition here)

so why does it need a downgrade? again, the answer is simple since it completely overshadows one of the endgame zones this mud has, which is bc. dug i love ya for writing keprum, really interested in where that quest is going and when he's gonna hump Lord P but this item is _way too good_ for its difficulty. i know, one zone for a single item gives it a plus but it is not enough imo.

Proposed solution:
matte black drow chainmail sleeves * ac0 0/4 * MAGIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Global (Q) * Last ID: 12-28-08
or
matte black drow chainmail sleeves * ac10 0/3 * MAGIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Global (Q) * Last ID: 12-28-08
and as either one they are still very powerful items, top tier indeed. on to next offender.


Item to be downgraded:
the shimmering cloak of the vortex * ac10 0/3 * Called Proc: 'reflection' Mirror Image 1x/Day * NO-MAGE * Zone: Undermountain 2 * Last ID: kegor still has old stats

Items in direct competition: (there are so many that for this i will focus directly on the hitter items. yes i realize it doubles as a tank/cleric item)
a cloak of the Fay * ac20 0/3 6max_dex SLOW-POISON * MAGIC NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Faerie Realms (Q) * Last ID: 1-8-07 (yes i know these are not the new stats. no i will not post the new stats here because i havent physically seen them, when i do you will find them in their own slot in this thread)
a mantle of interlocking silversaan plates * ac15 0/3 -5svpet PR-LIGHT PR-ACID * ANTI-NEUTRAL NOBURN NO-MAGE * Zone: Undermountain 1 (Q) * Last ID: 2-15-07
a blued steel pauldron * Worn: About * ac15 0/3 -6svsp * NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Ice Crag Castle 2 * Last ID: 3-8-06
a glimmering cloak of the faerie king * ac20 0/3 9str * NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Seelie Faerie Court (R) * Last ID: 1-25-06

why it needs downgrading; while the previous downgrade was on the right track it did not deal with the fact that it is _the proc_ that makes this item as powerful as it is.

Proposed solution:
the shimmering cloak of the vortex * ac15 0/3 * Called Proc: 'reflection' Mirror Image 1x/2 Days * NO-MAGE * Zone: Undermountain 2
or
the shimmering cloak of the vortex * ac20 0/3 * Called Proc: 'reflection' Mirror Image 1or2x/Week * NO-MAGE * Zone: Undermountain 2


Item to be downgraded:
an iron crown of fireballs * QUEST-ITEM * -12armor 0/3 PR-COLD PR-LIGHT PR-GAS PR-ACID * Lvl 50 fireball - 4/4 charges * MAGIC NOBURN NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Silverymoon (I) * Last ID: 1-24-09

Items in direct competition:
a demonic crown of immortality * QUEST-ITEM * ac12 0/3 5max_str * Called Proc: 'Weak fuels the Strong' (Usable once per day) * MAGIC ANTI-GOOD ANTI-NEUTRAL NOBURN NOLOCATE NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Keep of Finn McCumhail * Last ID: 1-5-08
iron crown of the fire giant warlords 1 * ac12 0/4 -6svbr PR-FIRE * NOBURN NOLOCATE NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Jotunheim (I) * Last ID: 7-15-07
iron crown of the frost giant warlords * ac12 0/3 PR-COLD PR-LIGHT * MAGIC NOBURN NOLOCATE NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Muspelheim (I) * Last ID: unknown
the fiery burning crown of Dresk'akla * ac12 0/4 PR-COLD * MAGIC ANTI-GOOD ANTI-NEUTRAL FLOAT NOBURN NOLOCATE NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Magma Plane * Last ID: 3-14-09
the angelic helm of planar might * ac12 0/4 -5svbr DET-INVIS SENSE-LIFE PR-LIGHT * ANTI-EVIL FLOAT NOBURN NO-MAGE * Zone: Magma Plane (Q) * Last ID: 3-28-09
the war helm of conquest * ac15 2/3 PR-ACID * MAGIC BLESS ANTI-GOOD ANTI-NEUTRAL NOBURN NO-CLERIC NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Zone: Cloud Realms (Q) * Last ID: 2-22-07

why it needs to be downgraded; It is pretty obvious, having 4 prots of your chosing makes this item a defensive marvel. it frees up slots where you lost hps or ac or damroll because you had to wear a prot. It comes from a zone, is not quested and it is not rare, by now the mud is flooded with these crowns. The difficulty involved in obtaining it does not warrant it being 3 dam.

Proposed solution:
sigh i have no concrete solution for this, the core of the item is the prots it provides thus it can stand to go down to
an iron crown of fireballs * QUEST-ITEM * -12armor 1/2 PR-COLD PR-LIGHT PR-GAS PR-ACID * Lvl 50 fireball - 4/4 charges * MAGIC NOBURN NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Silverymoon (I) *
or even 2/2. i know there is a chance that adding hitroll and damroll to this item might be impossible in which case other solutions might be sought out.



that is what i can think of for now, will add more later. feel free to add to this list or discuss it.
- edited for format/first of many sm items to be added.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Dalar » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:29 pm

Why not just up finder's rewards? ac 5 3 dam 5 maxagi would be nice.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Gukov » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:39 pm

I imagine most perceptions of an overpowered vortex proc could be resolved with a !rogue flag.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby grundar » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:52 am

It is not about rogues, its about an item having a proc that you previously had to do tiamat for. and about the fact that currently warriors/rangers can proc mirror image 3x per 24 minutes.

Dalar wrote:Why not just up finder's rewards? ac 5 3 dam 5 maxagi would be nice.
joking right?
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:24 pm

I agree with most of the proposed items on the downgrade block. I'd like to suggest, however, that its not AC that is dropped from all of these items. The neckguard for example, removing the AC would make it a ranger/rogue item, and it's flagged !thief. I say leave SOME ac on it, and look at other ways to down it, like ac6 +2 +2 or something along those lines.

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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Dalar » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:07 pm

grundar wrote:It is not about rogues, its about an item having a proc that you previously had to do tiamat for. and about the fact that currently warriors/rangers can proc mirror image 3x per 24 minutes.

Dalar wrote:Why not just up finder's rewards? ac 5 3 dam 5 maxagi would be nice.
joking right?


Finder is pretty long to do and the rewards are all crap. So no I'm not kidding. There's a 3dam 3 maxagi earring.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Botef » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:13 pm

Finder's is a joke these days. While most of the items in that quest, save for one, are easy to get you have to snag a 25% rare mob like what 8 times? Not to mention all the in zone things you have to do. While you do get multiple items none of them are really top of the line anymore. Bracelet is barely an improvement over GF shockers, cloak is more or less crap, mandolin is crap, sword is mediocre.

Crown of fireballs doesn't bother me much for a number of reasons. Demonic crown isnt a good comparison either because you can do that fight with a few people and its already flooded. Same with frost giant crown.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby grundar » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:03 pm

Dalar wrote:
grundar wrote:It is not about rogues, its about an item having a proc that you previously had to do tiamat for. and about the fact that currently warriors/rangers can proc mirror image 3x per 24 minutes.

Dalar wrote:Why not just up finder's rewards? ac 5 3 dam 5 maxagi would be nice.
joking right?


Finder is pretty long to do and the rewards are all crap. So no I'm not kidding. There's a 3dam 3 maxagi earring.


i agree with it being able to use an upgrade but why jump all the way to 5maxagi? thats unwarranted imo. and yes i've looked through the quest and been making it a point to check how often finder loads also. meh, might as well start a thread for epic quest upgrades/balancing since all the focus went directly towards finders here :P
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Ardessa Moonblade » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: drow chainmail sleeves

There's yet another item competing with this arm slot.

entwined gold serpent armbands * ac8 0/3 SLOW-POISON * Called Proc: 'snakes' Pet Snake 1/2 days * MAGIC NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Seer Kings (Q)

EQ stat escalation has already pulled this item out of serious consideration, however. Notice that you didn't even have it on your list. I can see your argument for downgrading these. The
one problem is that by making it the solo reward from the zone, and changing the claw to somewhat rare, these sleeves should be one of the best items at that slot. Only one person out of 8-12 or so will win it. I don't think anyone would complain too much if it lost some ac but stayed 4 dam. I can agree that it is a bit overpowered for the difficulty to obtain though.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:24 am

grundar wrote:Item to be downgraded:
a heavy neckband with iron studs * ac10 0/3 * MAGIC NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Zone: Calimport Palace Vault (R) * Last ID: 1-4-09

Items in direct competition:
the black steel amulet of the crescent moon * ac10 0/3 15hp SNEAK INFRA * Called Proc: 'Crescent Moon' Invisibility * MAGIC FLOAT NOBURN NOSUMMON NO-WARRIOR NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Tiamat (R) * Last ID: 1-7-07

Am I missing something, how can you say these items are in direct competition? One is !thief and the other is thief only.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby grundar » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:29 am

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:
grundar wrote:Item to be downgraded:
a heavy neckband with iron studs * ac10 0/3 * MAGIC NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Zone: Calimport Palace Vault (R) * Last ID: 1-4-09

Items in direct competition:
the black steel amulet of the crescent moon * ac10 0/3 15hp SNEAK INFRA * Called Proc: 'Crescent Moon' Invisibility * MAGIC FLOAT NOBURN NOSUMMON NO-WARRIOR NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Zone: Tiamat (R) * Last ID: 1-7-07

Am I missing something, how can you say these items are in direct competition? One is !thief and the other is thief only.


yeah, you're missing something.. battlechanter neck damroll thats the only reason i put that there tho :P
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:41 am

grundar wrote:yeah, you're missing something.. battlechanter neck damroll thats the only reason i put that there tho

That's right because the mud is over run by over powered battlechanters soloing and duoing entire zones.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby grundar » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:13 am

yeah i'm sick and tired of getting a group, and fighting all the way to loki just to find out that some crazed battlechanter with overpowered eq already twinked mistweave.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Thilindel » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:03 am

I don't get DOWNGRADE threads. Just because an author of a thread doesn't agree with something, should that lead to impose such will upon the rest of the populace? If someone doesn't like something that they feel is overpowered, then stick with your morals and don't use it/them. *shrug* I haven't played full time in quite awhile. I got burnt out from x, y, z reasons. Downgrading stuff that's already been evaluated in order to have been put into the game is one of those xyz's.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:27 pm

How about we go with a less specific recommendation? AC in general? getting -100 ac isn't a challenge at all for most people of most classes. With "mediocre" gear, my mages have -60+ ac. -100 ac was something that i always thought was reserved for warriors. Don't get me wrong, i think a properly Eq'd cleric should be able to obtain the same. And druids with armor/bark combination to -100 as well. The real problem are mages and rogues with -100 ac. I think rogues with UBER gear should get into the upper -90's and with tia -100. The mages probably in the -80's to -90's with the same. Getting -100 ac is a joke anymore.

As a solution, i suggest a 10% decrease in AC of all non-warrior and !bits items across the board. A re-assessment of AC on items for mages and rogues also. There shouldn't be an ac20 mageable shield. There shouldn't be ac10 mage/rogueable bracelets. AC on armor for mages should be 20 at a MAXIMUM, probably less. As of recent times, the ac on neck items seem to be the largest offender. Neck items should top at ac10 for warrior items at a MAXIMUM. The average being between 5-7.

And while i'm on the topic of AC, fix maxagi. The melee sustainability of a PC with the maxagi we have out there is nauseating.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Disoputlip » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:29 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:..getting -100 ac isn't a challenge at all for most people of most classes. With "mediocre" gear, my mages have -60+ ac...


Ok, shortened your post a bit. But I disagree..

I have mages with -100 ac, but that was fairly hard to do.

Gave up on getting -100ac as rogue, but I ofcourse can see others are having the -80 and then armor potion for the last 20.

The way from -60ac to -100ac is challenging. And I doubt most zoning rogues/mages will sacrifice hp/damage to get it. (I mainly have it for soloing).
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Botef » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:17 am

Thilindel wrote:I don't get DOWNGRADE threads. Just because an author of a thread doesn't agree with something, should that lead to impose such will upon the rest of the populace? If someone doesn't like something that they feel is overpowered, then stick with your morals and don't use it/them. *shrug* I haven't played full time in quite awhile. I got burnt out from x, y, z reasons. Downgrading stuff that's already been evaluated in order to have been put into the game is one of those xyz's.


Quoting this for the next time we have a Thil UPGRADE thread.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Ardessa Moonblade » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:02 am

Delmair Aamoren wrote: Getting -100 ac is a joke anymore.


I also don't agree with this. I can't hit -100 on my rogue w/o bark + armor. My mage doesn't hit anywhere near -100 either. My warrior and paladin hit it pretty easily though. I think there is a stray mageable item or 2 out there with too much ac + good hit/dam (sapphire bracelet from IC2, for instance). Overall, it's a decent trade-off. If you want better ac to boost your personal survivability, you generally have to trade off for less damage worn as rogue, or less +hp or + max int as mage. Which can in turn mean your group doesn't do as well, since you aren't as effective in the fights.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:12 am

Botef wrote:
Thilindel wrote:I don't get DOWNGRADE threads. Just because an author of a thread doesn't agree with something, should that lead to impose such will upon the rest of the populace? If someone doesn't like something that they feel is overpowered, then stick with your morals and don't use it/them. *shrug* I haven't played full time in quite awhile. I got burnt out from x, y, z reasons. Downgrading stuff that's already been evaluated in order to have been put into the game is one of those xyz's.


Quoting this for the next time we have a Thil UPGRADE thread.


Well, there is a big difference in that. Upgrades are beneficial. If an argument is valid, the entire mud benefits. Such as paladins, rangers suck. Upgrade them @ once. Nobody really plays them, so it's all good. However, downgrading, because some person thinks an item is overly rewarding, can basically punish the entire player base. What's easy for a decked out player to accomplish is NOT easy for a relatively new player. It's always better to upgrade before downgrading.

Best example that comes to mind: Would you rather have a little too much morphine, so it effects you quicker (not so much as to kill or cause extreme sleepiness)? But if you don't get enough morphine..well, what's the point? Yeoch!
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Botef » Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:25 am

That is not always the case Thil, and in the context of this thread we are discussing downgrading items for the overall balance of other items. Downgrading one overpowered item to put the other competing items into proper focus isn't some shaft of the weak players by the elites, and consequently makes the attainability of a top end item easier in that there are more options available.

I'm not big on downgrading after the fact either, but it makes a lot more sense to downgrade 1 item to bring things into balance than upgrade 4 or 5...Especially since we've done a lot of item upgrades in the last few years to things that are only increasingly easier to come across.
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Thilindel » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:33 pm

Trouble with downgrade this, upgrade that is stats of a pre-dg'd item tend to be the reason others do the quest(s). Reminds me of chasing one's tail. I believe it's the process that's got it all wrong. Zone writers have a clear relative idea of what other equipment is out there. True, there are some styles of playing that may not be taken in consideration while a zone or equipment is statted, but after the 'correction' to ensure that style is not possible anymore - such as pwb an elemental to barricade, the item should be left alone for the most part. Overzealous thought tends to not only remedy such styles, but ALSO downgrade the item in question. May as well remove it if that's the logic...so much like tossing a bone in front of a dog, then getting it yanked away, or discovering it's cardboard!
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Re: The big mean DOWNGRADE thread

Postby Botef » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:07 pm

Most of the gear in this thread we are talking about downgrading comes from zones, and undermine quests, not the other way around. No tail chasing here, we're more interested in keeping a reason to do epic quests like finders.

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