height weight eq

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Thrand
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height weight eq

Postby Thrand » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Here is a partial (im guessing) and out of date (im sure) list
Whats the plan ?

band of deformities * ac0 40weight * Armor (Finger) * 0 lbs * 3029c * Zone: Ashstone * Last ID: 8-29-07
a belt of super density * ac10 50weight NoID * MAGIC NODROP NO-CLERIC NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Armor (Waist) * Zone: DemiPlane (R) * Last ID: 8-26-09
a buckler of dense iron * ac8 4dam 40weight * Armor (Shield) * 25 lbs * 5000c * Zone: Calimport Palace Vault (R) * Last ID: 11-12-08
a cloak of ogrekind * ac12 99weight 12height * NOLOCATE NO-CLERIC NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Armor (About) * 10 lbs * 17500c * Zone: Silverymoon (I) * Last ID: 10-28-09
a slimy parasitic band * ac0 -10weight -40height * Armor (Finger) * 2 lbs * 25000c * Zone: Calimport Palace Vault (R) * Last ID: 8-22-09
a small steel buckler 1 * ac10 1hit 5weight * NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Armor (Shield) * 3 lbs * 4500c * Zone: Pirate Isles * Last ID: 9-5-07
a suit of fur lined bone plate mail * ac16 -9con 30weight * NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Armor (Body) * 0 lbs * 5000c * Zone: Tarsellian Forest * Last ID: 3-9-07
a thick iron shield * ac15 15weight * Armor (Shield) * 40 lbs * 400000c * Zone: Comarian Mines (Q) * Last ID: 4-7-07
a tower shield caked with blood * ac15 9str 20weight * MAGIC ANTI-GOOD ANTI-NEUTRAL NOBURN NO-CLERIC NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Armor (Shield) * 55 lbs * 0c * Zone: Oakvale (R) * Last ID: 9-30-09
a wolfhide knapsack * -75weight * Container (170 lbs) (Hold) * 0 lbs * 10000c * Zone: Tarsellian Forest * Last ID: 4-1-07
an adamantium shield * ac15 2dam 20weight * NO-CLERIC NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Armor (Shield) * 55 lbs * 100000c * Zone: Griffon's Nest * Last ID: 9-15-07
black ringmail * ac6 2hp 5weight * Armor (Body) * 20 lbs * 700c * Zone: Zhentil Keep (S) * Last ID: 5-29-06
the ceremonial robes of the Sky Pony * 20mv -50weight * MAGIC ANTI-EVIL FLOAT ANTI-HUMAN ANTI-GREYELF ANTI-HALFELF ANTI-DWARF ANTI-HALFLING ANTI-GNOME ANTI-DUERGAR ANTI-DROWELF ANTI-ILLITHID ANTI-YUANTI ANTI-LICH * Container (About) * 0 lbs * 50000c * Zone: Griffon's Nest (Q) * Last ID: 2-19-07
the ceremonial robes of the Umber Hulk * ac10 1dam 32weight * ANTI-GOOD ANTI-NEUTRAL NOBURN * Armor (About) * 0 lbs * 0c *

a cloak of faeriekind * ac18 40hp -12height * MAGIC NOSLEEP NOCHARM NO-WARRIOR NO-THIEF ANTI-BARBARIAN ANTI-TROLL ANTI-OGRE * Armor (About) * 1 lbs * 772730c * Zone: Faerie Realms (Q) * Last ID: 5-23-07
a cloak of ogrekind * ac12 99weight 12height * NOLOCATE NO-CLERIC NO-THIEF NO-MAGE * Armor (About) * 10 lbs * 17500c * Zone: Silverymoon (I) * Last ID: 10-28-09
a cruel cat o' nine tails * 3D5 10height * MAGIC ANTI-GOOD * Weapon (Wield) * 4 lbs * 12433c * Zone: Zhentil Keep (R) * Last ID: 1-24-06
a jeweled crescent dagger * 3D3 3dam -6height * MAGIC NO-CLERIC * Weapon (Wield) * 1 lbs * 7500c * Zone: Keep of Finn McCumhail (R) * Last ID: 7-26-09
a pair of pitch-black boots * ac8 2hp 3height * MAGIC ANTI-GOOD ANTI-NEUTRAL * Armor (Feet) * 2 lbs * 25000c * Zone: Astral Plane * Last ID: 9-18-07
a ring of reduction * +2armor -6height * INVISIBLE MAGIC NO-WARRIOR NO-CLERIC NO-THIEF * Worn (Finger) * 1 lbs * 12000c * Zone: Doodajipple's Workshop * Last ID: 1-3-09
a slimy parasitic band * ac0 -10weight -40height * Armor (Finger) * 2 lbs * 25000c * Zone: Calimport Palace Vault (R) * Last ID: 8-22-09
an eerily glowing longsword * 2D6 13height * MAGIC NO-CLERIC NO-MAGE * Weapon (Wield) * 8 lbs * 3000c * Zone: Yath Oloth * Last ID: 4-5-06
an enchanted horn of sleep * Lvl 50 sleep - 10/10charges * -5svsp -9height * MAGIC ANTI-GOOD ANTI-EVIL ANTI-NEUTRAL * Staff (Hold) * 1 lbs * 37500c * Zone: Keep of Finn McCumhail (R) * Last ID: 2-25-09
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Dalar » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:30 pm

These will all be made into quest items with crappy rewards.
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Shevarash
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Shevarash » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:39 pm

What do you guys think of time-limited size alterations?

For example, let's say that once-per day the faerie cloak could reduce you 3 sizes, for 3 minutes. Would that be useful?

Alternately, if anyone would like to debate the pros and cons of allowing permanent size changes from these items, I'd love to hear it.
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Kindi
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Kindi » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:57 pm

I don't see many people using time limited stuff unless it's Ross who has 5 of everything.

Becoming unbashable thru reduce and/or height reduction eq was a core strategy for quite a few zones and solo play and that's what people are complaining about so why not just make -height eq into -size eq and convert +height stuff into some other stat. Or if the item's whole point was +height maybe make it +size but not stackable with enlarge unlike reduce which would still be stackable.

Like i suggested in the other feedback thread I think reduce should move down by 2 to retain unbashable status but enlarge should stay 1 size so it doesn't let you bash giants. This keeps all the player startegies intact and doesn't unbalance anything afaict. I can see splitting the two as far as game power as giving players what they want without messing everything up - besides it'd be harder physically to add mass to something rather than take it away tho obviously magic doesn't follow physics could just say it's harder for magic to do it too :P
Thrand
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Thrand » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:08 pm

'Alternately, if anyone would like to debate the pros and cons of allowing permanent size changes from these items, I'd love to hear it.'

What was the discussion when they came in the game in the 1st place?
You seem to be suggesting that items with permanent size changes need
some justification. They were in the game, frankly it is up to you
to justify taking them out. And if you decide to take them out or can't
reproduce the same effect now that the size code is different, then
replace the lost 'points' on the items with some other effect.
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Shevarash
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Shevarash » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:42 pm

Size changes are much more dramatic than a little bit of -height and -weight, hence why this isn't a simple 1:1 conversion. My intention wasn't to ask anyone to justify anything, I'm just inviting you all to be a part of the process to fix this unintended side effect of the new code.
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Kindi
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Kindi » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:41 pm

Go through each of the items that previously affected height/weight and see how tough the item was to get. For weak items that were easy to get remove the stat and replace it with something else equally weak/easy like the -5 weight dress I found on dusk road or wherever could be changed to +4 charisma. size changes are too powerful to be found on small stuff -- probably similar to procs in rarity / difficulty

For tough to get items like the cloak of ogrekind or cloak of faeriekind -- especially that one since it seems to be the one everyone's upset over -- convert it to an actual change in size for 1 point in the right direction. this makes 'size effect' equiv to some other powerful status effects like perm sneak perm haste awareness levitate fly etc.

Whether it stacks with reduce/enlarge or not would be up to you but I think it should stack at least in the minus direction. This would make people with one -size eq item and reduce unbashable by medium mobs like they were with just reduce for the last 10 years. it'd be similar to always having a fly item on you as far as utility. grab bag of goodies ftw.

In the growth direction you'd have to see the effects on whether it breaks things or not. I think combining a stackable growth with unbashable templates on mobs that still shouldn't be bashable would be a winning method. growing to big size and bashing big stuff = HULK SMASH fun. Make some/all demons, golems, manscorpions, etc too dense or of inapropriate physiology to be bashed to preserve game balance, and let players stack on the cloak of ogrekind with enlarge to bash other big stuff that's not as tough. that makes for the most freedom and diversity in gear, status effects, and mob difficulty for both players and area builders imo.
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Shevarash
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Shevarash » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:52 pm

Here's what I've come up with, please feel free to provide feedback:


  • Height/Weight modifying equipment retains the ability to modify your effective size.
  • 36 points of height modification will move you one size category.
  • 150 points of weight modification will move you one size category.
  • These two modifications will not directly stack. For example, if you have 36 points of height modification you will grow one size category. To gain enough weight mass to go up another size category via weight, you would need 450 weight points (150 * 3).
  • Alternative: a character needs 24 points of height modification AND 100 points of weight to move a size category.

I think that the alternative makes the most sense, but the other route works better with our current equipment distribution. The idea is to retain the ability to move sizes via height or weight without allowing stacking the two. Thoughts, feedback?
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Thrand
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Thrand » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:02 pm

after this goes in and becomes final would you allow those who went
thru the quest for the faeirekind cloak to trade it in for a fey cloak
since this effectivley makes the whole point of the faerie kind cloak
ineffective.

So someone could trade in a feriekind and a king cloak and get back a fey cloak and an acients cloak
Kindi
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Kindi » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:15 pm

There isn't enough height/weight on existing item stats to ever change anything with those value thresholds even tho i agree they make logical sense when thinking in inches/pounds. I was thinking change all height/weight modifiers to 'Affects : Size by 1' or 'Affects : Size by -1'. leaving stats the way they are would be really misleading since there's no way to see character height/weight (since it doesn't exist!) so the values are meaningless now and should be converted to Size effects to match new code. i don't know how you'd stop the values stacking codewise...
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Shevarash
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Shevarash » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:17 pm

Just to clarify, those values would be cumulative across all of your equipment. So you could have three -12 height items that would move you one size down, as they total -36. Was that not clear?

I was going to start at 24 height and 100 weight originally, but bumped it up when I saw a few of the items, like the -40 height ring. Maybe going with a smaller threshold and adjusting a couple of big items (up and down) would get us closer to where we need to be.

Again, I'm posting here to collect feedback so we can solve this as a community.
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Shevarash » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:24 pm

Kindi - that's one option certainly, but the problem is the stacking. My proposal will let several pieces of equipment contribute to your overall height/weight modifier (which you can see on identifying the items still). If we go with direct whole size modifiers then there isn't much variance possible as the only items affecting your weight and size would have to be very hard to get.
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Kindi
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Kindi » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:49 pm

Then maybe remove height/weight, switch to Size, but divide by 10. Affects : Size by 10 would make you 1 size bigger, Affects : Size by -5 would have no effect until you wore another -5 Size item. That keeps the numbers small but direct and follows the base 10 for sizes -- 10 sizes currently and 10 points per size gives 100 point scale with Medium at 50. Height/weight is just too weird now that there are no more inches/pounds on characters. It would seem very 'legacy'/unclean to keep them around. if i were a new char coming in i'd look at attrib, see size, then look at the eq that says +10 height and i'd be like 'wtf?'

It's really hard to come up with proper suggestions for how this works without knowing the code behind it since that's the real limiting factor. Switching to 'size' the whole point was to get off of a number scale so the sizes shouldn't be numbers but can eq effects be numbers that affect non-number scaled things? Certainly seems to be the case since you say you can use height/weight to do the same thing -- i'm just offering a different name and scale i guess. maybe track a hidden char attribute 'sizemod' that bumps the size attribute on base 10 notches. -13 sizemod (wearing a -5 and a -8 size eq) bumps to -1 size bumps to small + reduce spell bumps to tiny.
Last edited by Kindi on Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Thrand
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Thrand » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:58 pm

a slimy parasitic band * ac0 -10weight -40height * Armor (Finger) * 2 lbs * 25000c * Zone: Calimport Palace Vault (R) * Last ID: 8-22-09

I may be wrong on this but, I think I was told that this item is or was
stated wrong and was supposed to be -10 height -40 weight, and was
supposed to be changed to that if it isnt already. I dont have one
so i have no idea but that is my recollection of overheard info.

Good luck and thanks for your time and effort
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:51 pm

I agree that converting height/weight into one attribute "size" would be the most appropriate. It removes the clutter of having two seperate items that have the same end result. The idea of a temporary or permanent "reduce" spell being cast on the wearer would reduce the benefit of the enchanters "reduce" spell, and make the entire line of size eq prettymuch pointless.

So in summation:
size, not height/weight and adjust appropriately (max of one size category up/down with worn eq)
make stackable with reduce spell
Thrand
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Thrand » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:43 pm

So its been close to a month since this change went in, and other changes have been
put in since with this issue still unresolved.

So whats the plan?
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Re: height weight eq

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:40 pm

Thrand wrote:So its been close to a month since this change went in, and other changes have been put in since with this issue still unresolved.

So whats the plan?

Fix it with 2.0.
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Shevarash
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Re: height weight eq

Postby Shevarash » Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:45 pm

I haven't forgotten. I'm working on it.
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muxxissinix
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Re: height weight eq

Postby muxxissinix » Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:34 pm

Maybe just remove height and weight from gear, add +/- size.

example :

- Parasitic band should be -1 size (note that get this item is pretty hard actually and lilithelle avoid to do this part of zone).

- Cloak of faeriekind -1 size and remove the other stats (ac and hp) or just change the height for another stat, if ppl dont want that change (I have cloak and I'd love it even if it only give me -1 size).

There are only few items that can worth to be changed in the game actually.

Changing your size should be something difficult.

Make new gear that can alter sizes.

If you want to stack heigh/weight I'd love to see a table of ranges of heighs for every size (fine,tiny,small,medium, etc).
Something that make sense.
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Re: height weight eq

Postby spunionring » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:12 pm

I understand that faeriekind is very tough quest, and agree that it should have nice stats.

but

I think its time we stop clinging to the idea of changing sizes with a perm item. Reduce should drop in combat sometimes, the risk is part of the fun. While a called proc reduce as per spell (does not stack) would be cool, I dont think it is of a significant priority to be coded.

Instead I think should just restat the really nice size items with new stats. and leave trash ones alone. Note the following ideas not only could be top tier very nice stats on the items, but these stats are not available on any other item on the <worn about> slot.

faeriekind: give a smidge of +maxagi instead
ogrekind: +maxcon? or big +hps
parasitic band: im sure annam can figure something useful. and yes, this fight is skipped becuase it is ++difficulty in a top tier zone

While these items deserve fixes, lets accept a simple, easy, straightforward compromise and look forward to new projects for the shev :)

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