This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

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kiryan
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This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:32 pm

http://www.nationalreview.com/battle10/ ... abeth-crum

This is DEEPLY disturbing.

"Attached to the email was a spreadsheet showing employee names and at which property they worked. Supervisors were asked to fill in codes explaining why their employees had not yet voted."
...
“We were asked to talk to people individually to find out why they had not yet voted and to fill in these spreadsheets explaining why,” the employee said. “I did not feel comfortable doing that.”

Harry Reid's campaign coordinating with a major employer with a union shop... to "get the vote out". Why do they have lists of who voted and where?

Is there any low Democrats won't stoop to to force us uneducated morons make the correct choices?
Disoputlip
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby Disoputlip » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:38 pm

I disagree with your right left approach to the issue.

This could happen in a lot of totalitarian places, both right and left oriented regimes.

And it certainly doesn't happen in normal socialist countries.
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:13 pm

Yet, if it is happening more often on the left in America, we have a serious problem that should not be ignored, nor identified by a different name.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby Ragorn » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:45 pm

Meanwhile, McDonalds threatened their employees with no raises or benefits if the Republican candidate didn't win their district:

http://gawker.com/5676830/mcdonalds-tel ... republican

Election fraud is serious business.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
kiryan
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:51 pm

Yep that is ridiculous and hopefully illegal.

There are significant differences here though in the two situations...

1. No evidence so far that this letter and action originates with staffers on the respective campaigns.
2. There is no list of who voted
3. There is no request for "reasons" why they haven't voted yet.
4. There is no evidence that managers and supervisors were asked to have conversations with their employees regarding the election.
5. The scale is different, maybe 40 employees at the franchise vs hundreds to thousands at the hotel?
6. They're supporting the good guys, not the bad guys. (*whistle*)

However at least the Harrahs debacle didn't
1. Overtly suggest retaliation. Mentioning raises and benefits is taking it up a notch over having your sup ask you why you didn't vote.
2. Name the candidates they should vote for.

I am minimizing, but I fully condemn both situations.
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:04 pm

This letter is highly distasteful. Corporations have a right to campaign, but it shouldn't abuse the employer-employee relationship, where the audience is rather captive. That's a personal opinion, however, and if McDonald's believes that certain candidates will cause them to be unable to give pay raises, shouldn't it inform its employees? The union representative sure is doing exactly that.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
kiryan
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:58 pm

This is a franchies, not McDonald's. People like to bag on McDonald's for beign a big corporation, but really its a series of small businesses.

Good point about unions. Still its crossing a line to include with your paycheck a letter suggesting who you should support.
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:05 pm

I completely agree. The trouble is now how to define how employers may communicate with their employees on political issues. Obviously, the franchisee owner can't find out how their employees voted, but is campaigning to your employees ok?
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby Ragorn » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:37 pm

No, it's expressly illegal.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
kiryan
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:26 pm

You know I don't think employers need to be communicating with their employees on matters of politics, religion etc etc... but I also don't think we should be encouraging healthcare to be provided through employers via tax breaks.

It's a job, it shouldn't be involved in your personal life.
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:02 am

Ragorn wrote:No, it's expressly illegal.

Could you quote an act or law? I'm having trouble looking it up.

At best, Ohio law does not allow employers from influencing the political actions of their employees. Campaigning, free speech, does not extend undue, unprotected influence.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby Ragorn » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:55 pm

http://law.onecle.com/ohio/elections/3599.05.html

This is the law on the books in Ohio, where the incident occurred.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:07 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:I completely agree. The trouble is now how to define how employers may communicate with their employees on political issues. Obviously, the franchisee owner can't find out how their employees voted, but is campaigning to your employees ok?

Ragorn wrote:No, it's expressly illegal.

No employer or his agent or a corporation shall print or authorize to be printed upon any pay envelopes any statements intended or calculated to influence the political action of his or its employees; or post or exhibit in the establishment or anywhere in or about the establishment any posters, placards, or hand bills containing any threat, notice, or information that if any particular candidate is elected or defeated work in the establishment will cease in whole or in part, or other threats expressed or implied, intended to influence the political opinions or votes of his or its employees.

Whoever violates this section is guilty of corrupt practices, and shall be punished by a fine of not less than five hundred nor more than one thousand dollars.

This still doesn't address how employers may communicate with their employees on political issues.

First of all, it's narrowly defined to posters, placards, hand bills, and pay envelopes.

Second of all, it's narrowly confined to one state.

Free speech is an important right - and the trouble is that we still have not defined how an employer may address their employees on political issues. I'm not even sure what argument you are making by indicating that the practice in the link Kiryan presented is illegal. I don't disagree, but it still does not answer the question or address the problem I presented.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
kiryan
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:30 pm

I don't think he's disagreeing, he's just pointing out that it happens on both sides.

I'm torn about which one is more egregious although both are reprehensible. The harrah's one doesn't tell them who to vote for and threaten their pay directly, but it did strongly encourage supervisors to directly confront the people they supervised... I'd imagine the coercive effects of having to explain yourself to someone is less effective than getting a flier with your paycheck. Maybe not.
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:34 pm

Corruption is sometimes about gaming the system for unfair advantages - human nature, really - but a large expense to the system and its stability. If you hide a threat behind enough curtains, the threat is no more. It's really a question of whether or not there are enough curtains.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Disoputlip
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby Disoputlip » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:41 pm

Free speach isn't the same as "everything goes". I would compare that McDonald letter with a threat or something.

You also can't claim someone is something if they are not etc.
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: This used to only happen in Russia and socialist countries

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:47 pm

Disoputlip wrote:Free speach isn't the same as "everything goes".

Indeed, and that is why I'm asking the question of how employers may communicate with their employees on political issues.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)

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