The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

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The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:41 pm

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... rdict.html

Nice spin, not guilty on the serious counts, gets 20 years to life. Its a victory because they've "incapacitated" this terrorist while all Bush did was find him, lock him up and refuse to let him go (isn't that the same as incapacitated?). Right, thats Obama's victory for sure. He "incapacitated" this terrorist single handidly despite Bush making it harder by "torturing" suspects.

Praise be to our saviour Barack, who pisses on the backs of the men he stands on, the men who made the tough choices that kept us safe after 9/11.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:50 pm

You really support giving up our ideals for a false sense of security? You've made statements that you want to run and armed rebellion against the current government. Would you say the same if the shoe was on the other foot? Tortured and held without trial, one of the Constitutional Rights you always go on about btw, indefinitely? You do realize your statements make you a candidate right? You do know that you're talking like a terrorist?

Luckily for you the feds have more important things to do than troll forums with 5 people online at any given time.

By the way, LOVE how you translated "he will probably get life in prison with no parole" to "he'll get 20 years."

Spectacular. You really should work for Fox News.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:19 pm

I said he'll get 20 years to life. I at no point indicated this guy was going to walk free ever again, I'm just making fun of the fact they think its a victory or even a credit to their administration that they've incapacitated this guy... Bush did that and apparently, despite "illegally torturing" him, stayed just enough on the right side of the law to allow DOJ to get a conviction. So he maximized intelligence and still is getting life in prison (most likely). all the bitching about how much harder it was needs to be offset by the potential to have gotten valuable information.

I'm sorry they didn't have a simple run of the mill caught you with the gun go to jail case. wah fuking wah. WHo knows they may have gotten tons of actionable valuable intelligence that they won't admit to for 50 years. Cheney made the claim iirc that "torture" had saved American lives. Given that Obama hasn't closed Gitmo or ended either war... I'm going to have to beleive theres a lot we don't know.

I don't know about "torture". Is it torture when they interrogate suspects in police stations for 18 straight hours? Is it torture when you put a koran on the toilet? or burn it? Is it torture if they don't give you cable TV, time outdoors and the kind of food you want to eat? Is sleep deprivation, stress positions and blaring music at you torture? Apparently waterboarding is torture by international standards, but also apparently Bush's lawyers didn't agree. I'm not sure I consider waterboarding any more significant torture than say threatening to turn them loose and tell everyone he was a snitch or sending in a woman to seduce him or making him think there was pork in his food or something... I reserve the word torture for things like raping your wife, shoving bamboo up your fingernails, sticking poles up your ass meat or wooden. By historical standards and even present day standards in most countries of the world, this was anything but torture. it was a fucking vacation.

also, don't be naieve. im sure the governments web scanners have already built a profile on Kiryan and rated me for a risk assessment. You think that carnivore exists to scan email, and the decades old telephone monitoring system that listened for words like assassinate, but they aren't actively scanning the web? Seriously?
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:39 pm

Sarvis wrote:You really support giving up our ideals for a false sense of security?

Which ideals do you speak of?

Due process should afford enemy combatants a military tribunal. That's what he got.

All Kiryan is talking about is how it's ridiculous that the trial be considered a success for the current administration. It's really more mundane than success. Worse, they're using the conclusion of a trial that was made possible by Bush to criticize Bush for finding and stopping the terrorist that they convicted.

Ridiculous.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:56 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:You really support giving up our ideals for a false sense of security?

Which ideals do you speak of?

Due process should afford enemy combatants a military tribunal. That's what he got.

All Kiryan is talking about is how it's ridiculous that the trial be considered a success for the current administration. It's really more mundane than success. Worse, they're using the conclusion of a trial that was made possible by Bush to criticize Bush for finding and stopping the terrorist that they convicted.

Ridiculous.


The criticism of Bush is that he did not hold trials for these people. The Fifth Amendment is one of our ideals, and Bush showed he doesn't care to uphold that. Sure, they are foreigners... but these are rights our forefathers decided PEOPLE should have. Bush claimed to be giving Iraq freedom while denying them the rights we are supposed to uphold.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Ragorn » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:50 pm

I think the fact that we gave him a trial is a success over the policy of the previous administration, whose usual MO was to just hide this guy in a dungeon somewhere and never tell the public his name.

The trial itself is mundane.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:18 pm

fair enough. it is a better policy to have a trial and obtain a conviction than just leaving them in a dungeon for the rest of their life without a trial.

but what would they have done if he was found innocent? Spark a crisis either at home or internationally?
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Kindi » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:21 pm

kiryan wrote:but what would they have done if he was found innocent? Spark a crisis either at home or internationally?

what should they do if there was no evidence or confession outside of torture? find him guilty anyway?
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:42 pm

OJ Simpson went free... but do you really believe he didn't murder nicole?

Our standard is above and beyond what is logical so that we can err on the side of innocence and specifically to provide people, US citizens, with power to protect their rights from our own government... So, please don't confuse no evidence, with no legally admissible evidence, with not enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt in the country with the strongest protections of freedom in the world.

and while it might be nice to extend these protections and rights to people caught in foreign countries, operating as "enemy combatants" in the theatre of war... its not very sensical.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Kindi » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:45 pm

kiryan wrote:and while it might be nice to extend these protections and rights to people caught in foreign countries, operating as "enemy combatants" in the theatre of war... its not very sensical.

i've heard plenty of nasty stuff about guantanamo, that evidence was left piled on some guy's desk, that evidence was routinely lost, and that sometimes the only evidence they had was the word of the warlord minion turning them in for the reward money (no possibility that might be biased hey?) and of course that testimony is long gone. a lot of them are _suspected_ enemy combatants. for sure, execute the terrorists, i'm ok with that. i'm NOT ok with treating _suspected_ terrorists the exact same as _actual_ terrorists
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:47 pm

kiryan wrote:OJ Simpson went free... but do you really believe he didn't murder nicole?

Our standard is above and beyond what is logical so that we can err on the side of innocence and specifically to provide people, US citizens, with power to protect their rights from our own government... So, please don't confuse no evidence, with no legally admissible evidence, with not enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt in the country with the strongest protections of freedom in the world.

and while it might be nice to extend these protections and rights to people caught in foreign countries, operating as "enemy combatants" in the theatre of war... its not very sensical.


If we want them to have Freedom, shouldn't we show them what that actually means? A proper trial is one of the most fundamental protections of our Freedom. You are NOT free if all I have to do is call up the Feds and say Kiryan's a terrorist, and you disappear for the rest of your life.

Yet that's the version of Freedom Bush was showing them.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:14 pm

Even in America if they catch you holding the gun you're locked up indefinitely until your trial is completed. Whether that takes 3 hung juries and 5 years or 3 months.

Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped in 2002, caught in 2003. The trial just started literally last month. Her abductors have been in jail for 7 years now without a trial?

Seriously try to get some perspective and try to understand that a US citizen is different than an enemy soldier. One committed a crime, the other is engaged in warfare.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Kindi » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:19 pm

kiryan wrote: One committed a crime, the other is engaged in warfare.

if you caught htem on the battlefield, sure. but if they were handed to you? could be just some goat herder. that's what i mean by evidence.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:21 pm

kiryan wrote:Even in America if they catch you holding the gun you're locked up indefinitely until your trial is completed. Whether that takes 3 hung juries and 5 years or 3 months.

Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped in 2002, caught in 2003. The trial just started literally last month. Her abductors have been in jail for 7 years now without a trial?

Seriously try to get some perspective and try to understand that a US citizen is different than an enemy soldier. One committed a crime, the other is engaged in warfare.


So the families of Gitmo detainees were allowed to post bail? And no, you aren't held indefinitely in the US... you are held until your trial. Not an expert on how the system works but pretty sure it's scheduled or the process to schedule it begins immediately.

For the rest, I think Kindi covered it pretty damn well.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:54 pm

Right, cuz Bush was just locking people up "indefinitely" with no evidence at all. Really, you believe that was his/our policy? Mistakes I'm sure were made, but we probably let go more terrorists than we held innocents.

And how exactly is that different than what happens when someone calls up DHS and tells them your scared to leave a polygamist ranch? No evidence, but they took 450 children away from their families and you all thought that was hunky dorey? Or what happens when a rape victim picks the wrong guy out of a line up?

--

So your argument is that they're held indefinitely at gitmo because Bush held them in murky legal status and did not promise them the right to a trial?

So all he had to do was promise to give them a trial someday?
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:04 am

kiryan wrote:Right, cuz Bush was just locking people up "indefinitely" with no evidence at all. Really, you believe that was his/our policy? Mistakes I'm sure were made, but we probably let go more terrorists than we held innocents.

And how exactly is that different than what happens when someone calls up DHS and tells them your scared to leave a polygamist ranch? No evidence, but they took 450 children away from their families and you all thought that was hunky dorey? Or what happens when a rape victim picks the wrong guy out of a line up?

--

So your argument is that they're held indefinitely at gitmo because Bush held them in murky legal status and did not promise them the right to a trial?

So all he had to do was promise to give them a trial someday?


So where is all this evidence? Where were the proceedings for scheduling trials? There was none of either, or Bush would have shown it to reduce criticism. Instead he chose to trample the rights we are supposed to uphold.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:08 am

kiryan wrote:Right, cuz Bush was just locking people up "indefinitely" with no evidence at all. Really, you believe that was his/our policy?

yup

kiryan wrote:And how exactly is that different than what happens when someone calls up DHS and tells them your scared to leave a polygamist ranch? No evidence, but they took 450 children away from their families and you all thought that was hunky dorey?

testimony is evidence. and i trust USians to tell the truth (since they'll go to jail for false accusations) more than tribal afghani warlords with a financial incentive to imprison as many ppl as they can.

kiryan wrote: Or what happens when a rape victim picks the wrong guy out of a line up?

they get a lawyer and a trial to determine guilt or innocence

kiryan wrote:So your argument is that they're held indefinitely at gitmo because Bush held them in murky legal status and did not promise them the right to a trial?

yup

kiryan wrote:So all he had to do was promise to give them a trial someday?

pretty much, tho 'some day' is a bit wiggly
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:09 am

... so I guess I hit the nail on the head, all Bush had to do was promise to give them a trial instead of refusing to commit to anything in the middle of crisis.

Ghailani was convicted... are you seriously asking for evidence?
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:11 am

kiryan wrote:... so I guess I hit the nail on the head, all Bush had to do was promise to give them a trial instead of refusing to commit to anything in the middle of crisis.

Ghailani was convicted... are you seriously asking for evidence?


Didn't realize he was the only Gitmo detainee...
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:20 am

most of them were released without trial because there was no evidence :P
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:34 am

Sarvis wrote:The criticism of Bush is that he did not hold trials for these people. The Fifth Amendment is one of our ideals, and Bush showed he doesn't care to uphold that. Sure, they are foreigners... but these are rights our forefathers decided PEOPLE should have. Bush claimed to be giving Iraq freedom while denying them the rights we are supposed to uphold.

It is true that THIS trial was not held for this individual under the Bush administration, but the fact is that many were given trials under the Bush administration, rendering your argument, well... P'zoned.

Image

Wait, which administration decided to keep Gitmo open and CONTINUE in-progress military tribunals?

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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:48 am

i don't really consider the military tribunal thing a 'trial' since they weren't given lawyers, weren't told the "evidence" against them, weren't run by judges, stuff like that.

they're trials-of-a-sort, but they aren't American-Justice trials, and yes Obama sucks for continuing them. don't need to be all stupid-trolly about it, but i guess that's your schtick
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:57 am

Kindi wrote:i don't really consider the military tribunal thing a 'trial' since they weren't given lawyers, weren't told the "evidence" against them, weren't run by judges, stuff like that.

they're trials-of-a-sort, but they aren't American-Justice trials, and yes Obama sucks for continuing them. don't need to be all stupid-trolly about it, but i guess that's your schtick



It's trial by a jury of your peers... unless these guys were actual military, it wasn't their peers right?
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:56 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/11/ ... or-debate/

How can that be? Even some legal eagles found this puzzling. Writing in his blog “Lawfare,” terrorism legal expert Robert Chesney said it was “exceedingly hard to understand how a jury could conclude” that Ghailani conspired to bomb the embassy in question yet not also to kill the “inevitable victims of the bombing.” Did the jury think that Ghailani knew there was a plan was to bomb the embassy, but thought that the attack would be so small that it would not kill anyone? The verdict, he adds, “smacks of a compromise.”

This is interesting. I had read about a holdout, but hadn't really put 2 and 2 together. So probably all the jurors but one voted for conviction for all counts, but one holdout resulted in a compromise. I think there is a very valid question here, how can you be convicted of conspiracy to commit a crime that did happen and did kill 200 people but not be convicted of the actual murders?

--Very strange... The situation seems to be a paradox.

--I also think this is valid. What is the point of holding a civilian trial if you're going to hold him anyway. I think the its a legitimate claim that this was a "show trial" and while everyone in the world may want to throw stones, they too live in glass houses. Big fuking waste of money and time, he was never going to see the light of day anyhow.

Long before the trial began, Attorney General Eric Holder indicated that even if Ghailani were acquitted on counts of an indictment, the government could continue to hold him an enemy combatant under the “law of war.” Judge Kaplan referred to that ability in his decision not to permit the government to call Abebe as a witness.

If that is so, why did the administration go to the time, trouble and expense of staging this sham of a trial in New York? Knowing that Ghailani would most probably be incarcerated forever regardless of the civilian trial’s outcome, argued Glenn Greenwald, a legal analyst writing in Salon, made the trial in New York “more ‘show trial’ than ‘showcase’” for the government’s effort to continue trying terrorism cases in civilian court.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:58 pm

i agree, most of these trials (when they happen at all), and the way both administrations have handled them, are very underhanded and shady. i'd rather they give the whole thing a big American-Justice cleaning and airing out, but i doubt it'll ever happen
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:06 pm

Kindi wrote:i don't really consider the military tribunal thing a 'trial' since they weren't given lawyers, weren't told the "evidence" against them, weren't run by judges, stuff like that.

they're trials-of-a-sort, but they aren't American-Justice trials, and yes Obama sucks for continuing them. don't need to be all stupid-trolly about it, but i guess that's your schtick

The accused are provided lawyers in military tribunals, they are told evidence that is not classified (not all of it is), and they're run by what passes as judges according to US law (they are definitely not civilian judges nor qualified to judge civil or criminal courts, but military officers).

But matters of taking arms against a state aren't technically civil or criminal issues either. We have separate, distinct, and different courts for a lot of things. This happens to be one of them. Those that take arms against a state have a different set of peers than us protected civilians.

Furthermore, the Supreme Court of the United States of America has jurisdiction over any court, in this cause, the SCOTUS has found military tribunals to be legal and have protected their existence. It's a trial because SCOTUS says it is, although, it's completely understandable why people feel differently.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:14 pm

i think both the Supreme Court and the Congress are failing to uphold the US constitution in many ways, this being one of them
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:19 pm

Kindi wrote:i think both the Supreme Court and the Congress are failing to uphold the US constitution in many ways, this being one of them

It is possible. Our enemies certainly aren't getting very much liberty from us. But our government is not established to be a moral perfection, but to defend our liberty.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:21 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kindi wrote:i think both the Supreme Court and the Congress are failing to uphold the US constitution in many ways, this being one of them

It is possible. Our enemies certainly aren't getting very much liberty from us. But our government is not established to be a moral perfection, but to defend our liberty.

i find it so frustrating to talk to you. you've already judged these ppl the instant they showed up in an american prison. some poor shmo is out tending his goats, a warlord rolls by and snatches him up, sells him to the americans, and suddenly the guy's in prison for life as a "terrorist" and teflor wants him to stay there 'cause hey, the supreme court says it's ok...
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:22 pm

Kindi wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kindi wrote:i think both the Supreme Court and the Congress are failing to uphold the US constitution in many ways, this being one of them

It is possible. Our enemies certainly aren't getting very much liberty from us. But our government is not established to be a moral perfection, but to defend our liberty.

i find it so frustrating to talk to you. you've already judged these ppl the instant they showed up in an american prison. some poor shmo is out tending his goats, a warlord rolls by and snatches him up, sells him to the americans, and suddenly the guy's in prison for life as a "terrorist" and teflor the wise will ensure he stays there 'cause hey, the supreme court says it's ok...

No, I haven't, you add that in yourself due to flawed perception.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:24 pm

then be direct. it's not my job to understand your mind (god help me), it's your job to explain. are the ppl in guantanamo our enemies?
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:25 pm

Kindi wrote:then be direct. it's not my job to understand your mind (god help me), it's your job to explain. are the ppl in guantanamo our enemies?

Are you talking about the US Marines or the other prisoners?
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:26 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kindi wrote:then be direct. it's not my job to understand your mind (god help me), it's your job to explain. are the ppl in guantanamo our enemies?

Are you talking about the US Marines or the other prisoners?

the prisoners.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:31 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kindi wrote:then be direct. it's not my job to understand your mind (god help me), it's your job to explain. are the ppl in guantanamo our enemies?

Are you talking about the US Marines or the other prisoners?


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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:34 pm

They're prisoners. If they're enemies, they're enemies, if they're not, they're not.

So why all the emotional outrage?
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:35 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:They're prisoners. If they're enemies, they're enemies, if they're not, they're not.

So why all the emotional outrage?


If they aren't enemies, what right to we have to hold them in prison? You want tyranny? Imprisoning the innocent is a BIG part of tyranny.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:36 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kindi wrote:then be direct. it's not my job to understand your mind (god help me), it's your job to explain. are the ppl in guantanamo our enemies?

Are you talking about the US Marines or the other prisoners?


Suddenly reminded of why so many people have Teflor the Ranger on ignore...

Classy. You're really brightening up the place.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:37 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:They're prisoners. If they're enemies, they're enemies, if they're not, they're not.

So why all the emotional outrage?


If they aren't enemies, what right to we have to hold them in prison? You want tyranny? Imprisoning the innocent is a BIG part of tyranny.

People that are assumed to be innocent are imprisoned all the time. Even in the civil and criminal world, many are denied the opportunity to post bail. You don't have an argument here without attacking our entire judicial system - and that's outside of this scope of discussion.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:39 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote: and that's outside of this scope of discussion.


Misdirection and convenient!

Of course, since no one intends to give these innocent people a fair trial...
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:45 pm

Sarvis wrote:Of course, since no one intends to give these innocent people a fair trial...

I don't believe the officers of our military intend to give them mock trials, especially because you are presenting zero evidence that any of them have done so.

A number of gitmo detainees have been set free by these tribunals. Are you saying those trials were fixed against the incarcerated as well?

The trouble is, again, here, you don't have an argument.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:46 pm

Kindi... I tend to agree with Teflor.

I don't understand why you want to assume that every joe schmoe is a goat herder caught up in an overzealous and overbearing US government program...

Some mistakes are made, but I believe that there are very very few non radicals and terrorists that are detained for long periods of time. Sure a platoon rolls into a village and rounds up a bunch of guys and interrogates them for a few hours, but we aren't plucking goat herders off of pastures and whisking them away to gitmo for 6 years without any evidence.

seriously...
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:48 pm

kiryan wrote:Some mistakes are made, but I believe that there are very very few non radicals and terrorists that are detained for long periods of time. Sure a platoon rolls into a village and rounds up a bunch of guys and interrogates them for a few hours, but we aren't plucking goat herders off of pastures and whisking them away to gitmo for 6 years without any evidence.

we were for a short time, and some of them are still there, even years after they were declared innocent. as far as i know, they aren't adding to gitmo. i think that's because they're using black sites, extraordinary rendition, or turning them over to the locals (most likely) once they realized what a messed up situation gitmo was turning into.
Last edited by Kindi on Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:51 pm

kiryan wrote:Kindi... I tend to agree with Teflor.

I don't understand why you want to assume that every joe schmoe is a goat herder caught up in an overzealous and overbearing US government program...

Some mistakes are made, but I believe that there are very very few non radicals and terrorists that are detained for long periods of time. Sure a platoon rolls into a village and rounds up a bunch of guys and interrogates them for a few hours, but we aren't plucking goat herders off of pastures and whisking them away to gitmo for 6 years without any evidence.

seriously...



Nope, no one could ever be arrested, imprisoned, and executed based only on hearsay. Not possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:52 pm

When I was younger, I spent time with some great Americans that volunteered up to their lives defending us from great harm and a loss of liberty. I feel that I know a lot of them quite well, that they're honorable, well intentioned, and possess a strength of character and moral commitment that I don't even believe many people on this forum are even capable of. While they're out there, patrolling Afghanistan and protecting the public, I believe they're not just grabbing goat herders. A couple of my buddies work in armed forces intelligence, and I doubt they're being duped by warlords - they're pretty intelligent people. They know the difference between a goat herder and someone trained to work as a anti-state operative. They can piece together information and form strong logical bonds to come to reasonable conclusions.

And all of them love and respect human life, I believe, more than the average person, because they commit more of themselves to protect it every single day.

They acknowledge, and I certainly acknowledge that it's not possible to be right 100% of the time. Human beings are fallible. But that doesn't mean that we should never try.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:18 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:Kindi... I tend to agree with Teflor.

I don't understand why you want to assume that every joe schmoe is a goat herder caught up in an overzealous and overbearing US government program...

Some mistakes are made, but I believe that there are very very few non radicals and terrorists that are detained for long periods of time. Sure a platoon rolls into a village and rounds up a bunch of guys and interrogates them for a few hours, but we aren't plucking goat herders off of pastures and whisking them away to gitmo for 6 years without any evidence.

seriously...



Nope, no one could ever be arrested, imprisoned, and executed based only on hearsay. Not possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

So, your main argument is something that happened four generations before the United States of America existed?
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:38 pm

Because human nature changes so frequently, right? People would never falsely accuse an enemy, their crushes husband or anyone right?

There's a REASON we have "Innocent until proven guilty" in this country. There's a REASON police need to get warrants and gather evidence before even making an arrest.

Those reasons were thrown out for Middle Eastern goat herders under the auspices of a war they didn't ask for and weren't part of.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:42 pm

Sarvis wrote:Because human nature changes so frequently, right? People would never falsely accuse an enemy, their crushes husband or anyone right?

There's a REASON we have "Innocent until proven guilty" in this country. There's a REASON police need to get warrants and gather evidence before even making an arrest.

Those reasons were thrown out for Middle Eastern goat herders under the auspices of a war they didn't ask for and weren't part of.

Your argument is not about the United States of America, furthermore, you've neither shown or provided evidence that somehow human rights were violated. Military tribunals are legal - SCOTUS agrees that they're both constitutional and follow the Law of the Land. They're in accordance with international standards. They're considered fair by other nation-states.

And you're parading something unrelated, disconnected, that happened 4 generations before the United States of America even existed. Very convincing.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:45 pm

You're ignoring our ideals. You're giving up what makes this country great. You're saying that we should do things the way other countries do.

I love America. Why don't you?
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:55 pm

Sarvis wrote:You're ignoring our ideals. You're giving up what makes this country great. You're saying that we should do things the way other countries do.

I love America. Why don't you?

Would you care to quantify or list our ideals? This should be pretty good. Go ahead and describe what America is, Sarvis.

While you're at it, try to identify where they conflict and then present the AMERICAN ideal on how to resolve those conflicts according to the same ideas.
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Re: The ghailani trial was a success? in what measure?

Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:00 pm

So... innoncent unitl proven guilty means it should be illegal to hold someone without bail until after their guilt is determined? So Elizabeth Smart's kidnappers should be free until they are declared guilty by a court of law?

The fundamental objection I have is the proposition that these guys are criminals and not enemy combatants. They were designated enemy combatants and sustained by the supreme court, but you still insist that they are just run of the mill common criminals.

This guy in particular was Bin Laden's driver wasn't he? Even if he's not lets pretend he is. Should the guy driving a 4* US General around if captured be treated like a criminal or treated like a soldier? If during capture he picks up a gun and shoots it at the attacking force, was that attempted murder or was that self defense or was that war?

I think we're pretty much done here if we can't agree that this guy is a soldier.

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