warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Minimum moderation and heated debates.
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Kindi » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:04 pm

for saving the US economy from meltdown and destruction

"Well, Uncle Sam, you delivered. People will second-guess your specific decisions; you can always count on that. But just as there is a fog of war, there is a fog of panic — and, overall, your actions were remarkably effective."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/opini ... .html?_r=2
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:15 pm

Bleh

There was a world wide economic crisis brewing, there were going to be winners and losers. Government stepped in, chose the winners and losers and we're supposed to celebrate? The damage to our freedom to capitalism to restraint on government is seemingly fatal and you want to thank them?

Its like offering life saving first aid to someone you just shot. They were dieing because you shot them, but you want a medal.

Or stockholm syndrome, we've been kidnapped, but now we're coming to thank our captors for saving us from a horrible wretched alternate existence!

Some points are good, like the fact that every decision will be questioned. The fact that they moved with amazing rapidity for government, but I object to the overall sentiment.
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Kindi » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:20 pm

i thought de-regulation just allowed capitalism to do what it does best (screw everything up in search of all-mighty profit) so i'm not sure why you're blaming govt when it was the _lack_ of regulation that caused it?
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:40 pm

kiryan wrote:Bleh

There was a world wide economic crisis brewing, there were going to be winners and losers. Government stepped in, chose the winners and losers and we're supposed to celebrate? The damage to our freedom to capitalism to restraint on government is seemingly fatal and you want to thank them?

Its like offering life saving first aid to someone you just shot. They were dieing because you shot them, but you want a medal.

Or stockholm syndrome, we've been kidnapped, but now we're coming to thank our captors for saving us from a horrible wretched alternate existence!

Some points are good, like the fact that every decision will be questioned. The fact that they moved with amazing rapidity for government, but I object to the overall sentiment.


You realize Warren Buffet is a really, really successful capitalist right? As in, probably knows what he's talking about?

The governments didn't cause this crisis, profit-seeking banks did. The crisis didn't happen because the government suggested giving loans to poor people, it happened because banks lent out more than they could handle and tried to sell each other bad insurance to cover it. Or did you forget the whole credit default swap bit?
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:04 pm

Kindi, greed and lack of regulation obviously can be attributed some of the blame. Capitalism does not guarantee profits or succes or stability or the lack of bubbles or monoplies, it rewards good economics over the long term. Capitalism is fair, government bail outs and direction is a mechanism by which those with power choose who wins and loses.

Sarvis, I thought you'd be better educated on this subject since we covered exhaustedly during the 2008 fiasco.

What were CDS, a way of turning a bunch of crappy loans into AAA rated products ones
Why did banks and insurance companies and pensions buy so many of these? because by law they are only allowed to invest in AAA rated securities.
Why were there so many subprime loans, because freddy and fannie woud buy them at low interest rates.
Why did freddy and fanny pressuring banks to write more subprime loans to minorities? because the government and all the liberal organizations were coercively encouraging it.
Why didn't people pay more attention to the CDS market and the insuring of these products? Because the nanny state protects us from every possible negative outcome. Do you do business in Nigeria the same you would in the US?

Sure throughout this are elements of profit motive that were significant factors, but lets not forget the role of government in creating this crisis by creating the system and the moral hazard in the first place. Lets not forget that government has the power to investigate and hold hearings and raise awareness and meddle through new regulations and legislation. The government didn't need new regulations or power to do something, they needed to actually see it coming.
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Kindi » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:11 pm

kiryan wrote:Sure throughout this are elements of profit motive that were significant factors, but lets not forget the role of government in creating this crisis by creating the system and the moral hazard in the first place.

yeah, like money. damn them for creating a medium for exchange of value which can then be abused for nefarious purposes!
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:17 pm

kiryan wrote:Do you do business in Nigeria the same you would in the US?


I'm assuming you ask that because Nigeria is unregulated, so no one does business there?

Get it?
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:23 pm

Right because I my objections to the "system" are limited to paper money.

Maybe you should read up on what the Fed is and what it does. On what Fannie and Freddie do. Then spend a few minutes thinking about what they could and do get away with that isn't explicitly part of their mission.

All that Uncle Sam did for us is restore confidence in a phony system. As long as people continue to believe in it, it will sustain. The world came dangerously close to losing confidence in the system. Uncle Sam came tremendously close to losing a lot of power, a lot of control over the world and its population.

To say Uncle Sam's actions were self serving is putting it mildly at best.
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Kindi » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:27 pm

kiryan wrote:To say Uncle Sam's actions were self serving is putting it mildly at best.

yeah, the function of government is to ensure that it fails and dissolves, because govt doesn't do anything right

i don't think the fed is "good", nor fanny and freddie, but i think the root of what's wrong with them lies with the power capitalism holds over them, not government. unless you want to be a _real_ slave, like you get with the lack of government protection in foreign countries
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:28 pm

kiryan wrote:Right because I my objections to the "system" are limited to paper money.

Maybe you should read up on what the Fed is and what it does. On what Fannie and Freddie do. Then spend a few minutes thinking about what they could and do get away with that isn't explicitly part of their mission.

All that Uncle Sam did for us is restore confidence in a phony system. As long as people continue to believe in it, it will sustain. The world came dangerously close to losing confidence in the system. Uncle Sam came tremendously close to losing a lot of power, a lot of control over the world and its population.

To say Uncle Sam's actions were self serving is putting it mildly at best.


Sure, self-serving in the same way that defusing a bomb in a crowded room is self-serving. The alternative was that EVERYONE would have been screwed.

Damn you Uncle Sam! You selfish bastard!
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:30 pm

Oh, and the value of anything is based on belief. Gold isn't valuable, it's just that people believe it is. Wait, actually... food is valuable. So go ahead and get some chickens and go back to trading for food whenever you want.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:42 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:Bleh

There was a world wide economic crisis brewing, there were going to be winners and losers. Government stepped in, chose the winners and losers and we're supposed to celebrate? The damage to our freedom to capitalism to restraint on government is seemingly fatal and you want to thank them?

Its like offering life saving first aid to someone you just shot. They were dieing because you shot them, but you want a medal.

Or stockholm syndrome, we've been kidnapped, but now we're coming to thank our captors for saving us from a horrible wretched alternate existence!

Some points are good, like the fact that every decision will be questioned. The fact that they moved with amazing rapidity for government, but I object to the overall sentiment.


You realize Warren Buffet is a really, really successful capitalist right? As in, probably knows what he's talking about?

The governments didn't cause this crisis, profit-seeking banks did. The crisis didn't happen because the government suggested giving loans to poor people, it happened because banks lent out more than they could handle and tried to sell each other bad insurance to cover it. Or did you forget the whole credit default swap bit?


Image
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:46 pm

lets not exaggerate too much. I'm not talking about currency dollars vs gold vs cows. I'm talking about the stock market, shares of companies, government debt. Cold hard cash is a lot more real than a share of a company you bought for $5 that is now supposedly worth $50 because someone just paid $49 for one.
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Kindi » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:47 pm

kiryan wrote:Cold hard cash is a lot more real

i thought you guys were all harping on hyperinflation. that can't happen if it's actually "real", can it?
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:57 pm

How did you read 'more real' and take that to mean I said it was absolutely and unequivocally real.

inflation, exactly, another tool they use to keep this system working.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:05 am

Dalar wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:Bleh

There was a world wide economic crisis brewing, there were going to be winners and losers. Government stepped in, chose the winners and losers and we're supposed to celebrate? The damage to our freedom to capitalism to restraint on government is seemingly fatal and you want to thank them?

Its like offering life saving first aid to someone you just shot. They were dieing because you shot them, but you want a medal.

Or stockholm syndrome, we've been kidnapped, but now we're coming to thank our captors for saving us from a horrible wretched alternate existence!

Some points are good, like the fact that every decision will be questioned. The fact that they moved with amazing rapidity for government, but I object to the overall sentiment.


You realize Warren Buffet is a really, really successful capitalist right? As in, probably knows what he's talking about?

The governments didn't cause this crisis, profit-seeking banks did. The crisis didn't happen because the government suggested giving loans to poor people, it happened because banks lent out more than they could handle and tried to sell each other bad insurance to cover it. Or did you forget the whole credit default swap bit?


Image



Seriously, what's your problem man? I haven't done shit to you other than exist. I'm out of your forum like you requested, and you followed. So chill.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:06 am

kiryan wrote:lets not exaggerate too much. I'm not talking about currency dollars vs gold vs cows. I'm talking about the stock market, shares of companies, government debt. Cold hard cash is a lot more real than a share of a company you bought for $5 that is now supposedly worth $50 because someone just paid $49 for one.


So suddenly the free market is bad imaginary?
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:30 am

Kindi wrote:for saving the US economy from meltdown and destruction

"Well, Uncle Sam, you delivered. People will second-guess your specific decisions; you can always count on that. But just as there is a fog of war, there is a fog of panic — and, overall, your actions were remarkably effective."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/opini ... .html?_r=2

So are we celebrating our dependence on a government overlord, or are we celebrating the fact that we can no longer do these things for ourselves?

Or are we celebrating, really and potentially, that the very entity that caused the meltdown bumbled into what it thought was a solution and then claimed the credit when the economy recovered like it always has in every single meltdown before it?
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:46 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:So are we celebrating our dependence on a government overlord, or are we celebrating the fact that we can no longer do these things for ourselves?

Or are we celebrating, really and potentially, that the very entity that caused the meltdown bumbled into what it thought was a solution and then claimed the credit when the economy recovered like it always has in every single meltdown before it?

buffet is celebrating the fact that the US government saved us from a world-wide Great Depression
Adriorn Darkcloak
Sojourner
Posts: 1292
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:11 pm

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:46 am

Or he could just be playing party politics...who knows.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Corth » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:51 am

Warren Buffet is wrong.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:55 am

Corth wrote:Warren Buffet is wrong.

yeah, him and all the other stupid "economists"!
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:18 am

Corth wrote:Warren Buffet is wrong.


I'd be more willing to listen to that if you were one of the richest men on earth... or at least if you provided any reasoning.

Just sayin...
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Corth » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:37 am

First, there is by no means any sort of consensus among economists that the US government has followed a correct course of action. Far from it. Paul Krugman, for instance, the famous liberal nobel prize winning economist, says that the bailouts and stimulus didn't go nearly far enough and we are now stuck in a so-called 'liquidity trap' as a result. And of course economists that adhere to the Austrian School of Economics would say that the bailouts and stimulus create an unwarranted misallocation of resources which will make things worse in the future.

Second, I'm not sure why people care very much what economists say. How many of them, for instance, recognized the real estate bubble while it was actually happening, and predicted a deflationary spiral? Economists are notoriously bad at predicting large macroeconomic shifts. From 2003 through 2007 I was telling everyone who would listen that we were witnessing a real estate bubble of historic dimensions. You can ask Lathander about our numerous conversations on the subject. In particular, probably around 2005 I recall having a conversation with him about my expectation that we would see a real estate crash and resulting deflation. Guess what happened? Perhaps the economists need to listen to me instead.

Third, I take mild pleasure in noting that Sarvis believes someone is more likely to be correct merely because he is rich.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:06 pm

Corth wrote:Third, I take mild pleasure in noting that Sarvis believes someone is more likely to be correct merely because he is rich.


In matters of money, rich people have a lot more experience than the rest of us. :P
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Ragorn » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:54 pm

I've heard a lot of people who know what they're talking about say Bernake and Paulsen did a poor job. Here's one guy, who I consider an expert, lauding them.

I don't have the knowledge or understanding necessary to truly grasp the decisions that were made and their outcomes. I can play armchair economist, and I can listen to pundits and put together my own theories about what would have happened if this or that were different. But at the end of the day, I have no clue. I'm not going to argue with Warren Buffet... if he says that George Bush made things better and not worse, then maybe he knows more about this shit than I do.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:16 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:lets not exaggerate too much. I'm not talking about currency dollars vs gold vs cows. I'm talking about the stock market, shares of companies, government debt. Cold hard cash is a lot more real than a share of a company you bought for $5 that is now supposedly worth $50 because someone just paid $49 for one.


So suddenly the free market is bad imaginary?

Free market has many downsides, Kiryan is describing one of the prime examples.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:18 pm

Ragorn wrote:I've heard a lot of people who know what they're talking about say Bernake and Paulsen did a poor job. Here's one guy, who I consider an expert, lauding them.

I don't have the knowledge or understanding necessary to truly grasp the decisions that were made and their outcomes. I can play armchair economist, and I can listen to pundits and put together my own theories about what would have happened if this or that were different. But at the end of the day, I have no clue. I'm not going to argue with Warren Buffet... if he says that George Bush made things better and not worse, then maybe he knows more about this shit than I do.

It's possible that the Fed did a good job of limiting this recession. The Fed does a good job of protecting us from terrorists, fighting organized crime, and ensuring interstate highways are paved.

But does that excuse them from practically having caused it? Does it excuse them from not doing better with our money, blood, sweat, and tears?
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:19 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:But does that excuse them from practically having caused it?

wall street and the banks caused it.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:21 pm

Kindi wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:But does that excuse them from practically having caused it?

wall street and the banks caused it.

The American middle class owns most of it wall street and the banks.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:24 pm

"Owns" in a way that equates to exactly 0 control over policy.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:32 pm

Sarvis wrote:"Owns" in a way that equates to exactly 0 control over policy.

Wrong. You have the tyranny of the majority and free speech with which to convince them, Sarvis!
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:34 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:"Owns" in a way that equates to exactly 0 control over policy.

Wrong. You have the tyranny of the majority and free speech with which to convince them, Sarvis!


Private corporations are not constrained by the constitution.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:39 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:"Owns" in a way that equates to exactly 0 control over policy.

Wrong. You have the tyranny of the majority and free speech with which to convince them, Sarvis!


Private corporations are not constrained by the constitution.

First and foremost, yes, they are, just as we are individually - by the law.
Secondly, they're constrained by market principles - the need to succeed or die.... unless the government bails them out.

Both have to acknowledge the mighty majority you have the free speech to convince, according to your own argument.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Corth » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:24 pm

In large part the problems were caused by the Fed lowering interest rates to close to 0% following the stock market bubble (and thus stoking a real estate bubble), and also Fannie/Freddie shifting the risk in bank lending from the banks to themselves. IE government was in large part the cause of our problems, not the banks or the private sector.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:33 pm

government has a vested interest in keeping the system going, not in fixing anything.

anyone who is rich must be a major player in the system, they also have a vested interest in keeping it going.

Bernake and Paulsen being praised by rich men who had their asses saved... is less than inspiring.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:36 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:"Owns" in a way that equates to exactly 0 control over policy.

Wrong. You have the tyranny of the majority and free speech with which to convince them, Sarvis!


Private corporations are not constrained by the constitution.

First and foremost, yes, they are, just as we are individually - by the law.
Secondly, they're constrained by market principles - the need to succeed or die.... unless the government bails them out.

Both have to acknowledge the mighty majority you have the free speech to convince, according to your own argument.


Actually corporations don't. They may choose to in favor of higher profits, but they certainly do not have to.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:57 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:"Owns" in a way that equates to exactly 0 control over policy.

Wrong. You have the tyranny of the majority and free speech with which to convince them, Sarvis!


Private corporations are not constrained by the constitution.

First and foremost, yes, they are, just as we are individually - by the law.
Secondly, they're constrained by market principles - the need to succeed or die.... unless the government bails them out.

Both have to acknowledge the mighty majority you have the free speech to convince, according to your own argument.


Actually corporations don't. They may choose to in favor of higher profits, but they certainly do not have to.

Actually, they do. Attend a shareholder meeting some time. OBSERVE what happens when the shareholders have a shared, common concern that motivates them to buy and sell shares. Become educated in economics.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:05 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:"Owns" in a way that equates to exactly 0 control over policy.

Wrong. You have the tyranny of the majority and free speech with which to convince them, Sarvis!


Private corporations are not constrained by the constitution.

First and foremost, yes, they are, just as we are individually - by the law.
Secondly, they're constrained by market principles - the need to succeed or die.... unless the government bails them out.

Both have to acknowledge the mighty majority you have the free speech to convince, according to your own argument.


Actually corporations don't. They may choose to in favor of higher profits, but they certainly do not have to.

Actually, they do. Attend a shareholder meeting some time. OBSERVE what happens when the shareholders have a shared, common concern that motivates them to buy and sell shares. Become educated in economics.



:roll:
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:27 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Actually, they do. Attend a shareholder meeting some time. OBSERVE what happens when the shareholders have a shared, common concern that motivates them to buy and sell shares. Become educated in economics.

:roll:

Ok, I apologize for the sarcasm. To be fair to you, Sarvis, I can't condense how market forces work into a set of simple arguments. If you disagree, I'm not willing to type as much as is necessary to argue why a corporation would be affected by the opinions and actions of its stock holders and the consumers. I'm willing to agree to disagree, but that pretty much kills this discussion. Maybe there's something specific you can bring up something more specific.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:06 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Actually, they do. Attend a shareholder meeting some time. OBSERVE what happens when the shareholders have a shared, common concern that motivates them to buy and sell shares. Become educated in economics.

:roll:

Ok, I apologize for the sarcasm. To be fair to you, Sarvis, I can't condense how market forces work into a set of simple arguments. If you disagree, I'm not willing to type as much as is necessary to argue why a corporation would be affected by the opinions and actions of its stock holders and the consumers. I'm willing to agree to disagree, but that pretty much kills this discussion. Maybe there's something specific you can bring up something more specific.


Corporations do not have to do anything the majority shareholder doesn't tell them to do. Sure, the shareholders might sell their shares or boycott the company... but there will be others who will not.

Yes, most likely companies will follow the voice of the majority because they are more profitable... but they certainly do not HAVE to.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:14 pm

Corth wrote:In large part the problems were caused by the Fed lowering interest rates to close to 0% following the stock market bubble (and thus stoking a real estate bubble), and also Fannie/Freddie shifting the risk in bank lending from the banks to themselves. IE government was in large part the cause of our problems, not the banks or the private sector.


yep
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:17 pm

kiryan wrote:
Corth wrote:In large part the problems were caused by the Fed lowering interest rates to close to 0% following the stock market bubble (and thus stoking a real estate bubble), and also Fannie/Freddie shifting the risk in bank lending from the banks to themselves. IE government was in large part the cause of our problems, not the banks or the private sector.


yep

Don't forget the part where government essentially chased businesses out of the country by granting too many political favors to unions and other labor lobbies instead of favoring competitive practices.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Ragorn » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Don't forget the part where government deregulated the banking industry to the point where there was no accountability on bankers for the loans they were underwriting anymore.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:18 pm

right, because we need the government to protect you when you buy something. Heaven forbid you directly or through stock or as a corporation actually take any risk when you choose to spend money. No make sure government regulates it so nothing can ever fail.

Maybe they can make sure you buy the right health insurance policy too! oh wait they already did that because we're too stupid to buy what you know we need and government is too caring to allow anyone to fail.

maybe they can start telling me what to buy at the grocery store so my kids will be healthy and not obese.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Corth » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:49 pm

The part I don't think anyone should forget is where the government bailed out the private sector banks with taxpayer dollars instead of letting them fail for their poor market performance.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Kindi » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:02 pm

Corth wrote:The part I don't think anyone should forget is where the government bailed out the private sector banks with taxpayer dollars instead of letting them fail for their poor market performance.

can't let them fail if they take the entire world economy with them. talking about houses of cards...
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Corth » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:38 am

I thought liberals were supposed to distrust a government that tells you the sky is falling. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Kindi » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:03 am

i don't know enough about the current state of our financial system to make a full analysis, but all the analyses that everyone says are the 'most accurate' don't come from the government, and reinforce the idea that things would have been Very Bad. could be a global CYA maneuver, but not worth time and effort to become an economic expert to unravel it myself. as with many controversies that are already in the past, who really cares? :p

as for your attempt to label me, i liked the global economic meltdown because it meant ppl were buying fewer things and therefore using up natural resources at a slower rate..... what do you call someone who measures human success in terms other than money?
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: warren buffet thanks uncle sam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:33 pm

To be fair, the bubble was nearly worldwide. Everyone and anyone was overvaluing anything that was outside of Africa. Credit was easy-access nearly across the globe.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)

Return to “Current Events & Politics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests