ebooks

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Adriorn Darkcloak
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ebooks

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:11 pm

Regular textbook price: $130.

Ebook price: $107.

Really? My first impulse is to side with liberals and say 'wtf, corporations?' This just smells of massive greed, but maybe I'm overlooking things?

I'm hoping you guys have some more insight on this. I got really upset today when I saw the ebook price on the textbook I use for my course, in relation to the normal textbook price. I was thinking it was going to be like $20 max. I'm extremely upset over this.

Please explain.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Ragorn » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:10 am

Books cost a lot to produce. The cost of the paper and binding is not 80% of the price of your textbook.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Kindi » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:24 am

prices are set to what the market will bear. my favorite is when the ebook is more expensive than the paperback, even when including shipping. honestly tho, i wouldn't suggest buying e-format textbooks. ebooks are much better if they're purely linear material like novels. i'd really hate to have to read a textbook on the kindle.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:34 am

A combination of what Rags and Kindi said. Plus with textbooks there's a limited audience, so it's not like reducing the price is going to increase sales.

Software is similar. Sure it costs nothing to reproduce once finished... but most of the manufacturing cost is front-loaded.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Corth » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:53 am

Why are people surprised when individuals and corporations try to charge as much as possible for their products and/or services?

If they could get away with charging $1,000 for the e-book they would do it - and good for them.

The cost of the production materials (paper, binding material, etc.) is basically meaningless. A couple of bucks probably. What they are selling are the ideas of the author. And I suppose those ideas are good enough to justify getting people to spend that kind of money for them. If they weren't, then they wouldn't sell any books.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Adriorn Darkcloak
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Re: ebooks

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:51 am

Now compare everything you've all said and relate it to the music industry. Before, buying a new music CD was like $12-$16, minimum. Now, you can pick and choose the songs you want from the "album" for $1 a pop.

Both industries have to pay certain people before the album or book are sold; editors, designers, etc. I just don't see a "proper" price reduction on the ebooks like I see on music. Is it just too early? Will the prices SUBSTANTIALLY drop with more demand?

I don't know Corth. I'm getting the feeling alot of these book publishers are unwilling to truly adapt to the growing(?) digital market. They still want to continue receiving the same profits as before, maintaining the same process, without modernizing the industry. The same shit the music industry tried at first with all the anti-piracy lawsuits, etc. Like I said, is it just early in the process?


P.S. I prefer paper textbooks too, but some kids asked if they could use the ebook instead. It's the only reason all this came about.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:43 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Now compare everything you've all said and relate it to the music industry. Before, buying a new music CD was like $12-$16, minimum. Now, you can pick and choose the songs you want from the "album" for $1 a pop.

Both industries have to pay certain people before the album or book are sold; editors, designers, etc. I just don't see a "proper" price reduction on the ebooks like I see on music. Is it just too early? Will the prices SUBSTANTIALLY drop with more demand?

I don't know Corth. I'm getting the feeling alot of these book publishers are unwilling to truly adapt to the growing(?) digital market. They still want to continue receiving the same profits as before, maintaining the same process, without modernizing the industry. The same shit the music industry tried at first with all the anti-piracy lawsuits, etc. Like I said, is it just early in the process?


P.S. I prefer paper textbooks too, but some kids asked if they could use the ebook instead. It's the only reason all this came about.


How many songs are typically on a CD? 12-16? So roughly $1 per song?
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Re: ebooks

Postby Corth » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:48 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:I don't know Corth. I'm getting the feeling alot of these book publishers are unwilling to truly adapt to the growing(?) digital market. They still want to continue receiving the same profits as before, maintaining the same process, without modernizing the industry. The same shit the music industry tried at first with all the anti-piracy lawsuits, etc. Like I said, is it just early in the process?


You are right, they absolutely want to continue receiving the same profits as before. Even higher profits if they have their way. They will charge whatever people are willing to pay regardless of whether it is digital or print. It's the intellectual property they are selling, not the pieces of paper. How much does it cost Microsoft to burn Office Professional onto a DVD? Or sell a keycode for a digital download? They charge what they charge because they can, not because it corresponds to their cost of producing it.

Out of curiosity, did you choose this textbook or is it part of a curriculum that is chosen by others?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Adriorn Darkcloak
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Re: ebooks

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:57 pm

Sarvis wrote:How many songs are typically on a CD? 12-16? So roughly $1 per song?


Less really, more like 8-10. And most people don't buy all the songs on the album now, they pick and choose.

Corth wrote:You are right, they absolutely want to continue receiving the same profits as before. Even higher profits if they have their way. They will charge whatever people are willing to pay regardless of whether it is digital or print. It's the intellectual property they are selling, not the pieces of paper. How much does it cost Microsoft to burn Office Professional onto a DVD? Or sell a keycode for a digital download? They charge what they charge because they can, not because it corresponds to their cost of producing it.

Out of curiosity, did you choose this textbook or is it part of a curriculum that is chosen by others?


I've never paid the $300 or whatever it is to have Word or Windows on my computer. It's always come bundled on the HD for a fraction of the cost. Plus, I have free or MUCH cheaper alternatives to most of those "needed" programs that I can find online.

Also, with my textbook what I have found is that they are releasing "new" editions more frequently now, even though the changes are extremely minimal, barely noticeable or important. But the students are then forced to have to pay full price for the textbook, instead of being able to buy a used copy. No such thing as a used ebook. No such thing(?) as being able to lend ebooks (I think).

The textbook is part of a curriculum, I had no choice in choosing it. But I'm going to do my research now and see if I find a good one that actually has a decent digital price. Competition here plays too little a role in that department Corth, that's the problem.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Kindi » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:14 pm

on loaning ebooks: the Nook has the capability to loan a book to another Nook user, for 2 weeks. the publisher has to turn the feature on, and they also get to set how many times you can loan it. (good luck!) the kindle is coming out with loan features too, where you can loan the book to another person, once, ever, for a week or two. some libraries have ebook lending available for a few books, but they can only have as many ppl with it checked out as they've purchased ebook copies. this means they need to buy 5 ebooks if they want 5 ppl to be able to check it out.

so technically you can, but they really don't want you to, so they're making it really annoying.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:21 pm

Corporations? Please, the universities are their accomplices. At least they have resale value until they publish the 33rd edition of your textbook.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Ragorn » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:54 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Now compare everything you've all said and relate it to the music industry. Before, buying a new music CD was like $12-$16, minimum. Now, you can pick and choose the songs you want from the "album" for $1 a pop.

Both industries have to pay certain people before the album or book are sold; editors, designers, etc. I just don't see a "proper" price reduction on the ebooks like I see on music. Is it just too early? Will the prices SUBSTANTIALLY drop with more demand?

So instead of paying $15 for 13 songs, you're paying $1 a song for just the ones you want. Ok... that model doesn't really work for books, because I don't see them moving to a model where they sell chapters individually.

Yes, textbooks are a racket. It's an industry where there is little or no competition, and it's very easy for publishers and universities to set up mutually-beneficial arrangements that ultimately cost the students a lot of money. Yes, publishers consciously gouge students by releasing incremental changes to their material, calling them "new editions," and rewarding universities for requiring the latest edition. Yes, publishers intentionally shuffle material around in their books so that new editions have different page numbers than old editions (to discourage re-use of last year's book). They want you to buy that new book, and they sell it to you with pressure from the university and as little backwards compatibility as possible.

There's really no advice I can even give you, because publishers and universities are working together to make sure their needs are met at the expense of the students. This model will persist until one of two things happens... either the government intervenes to regulate publisher-university relationships, or a method of competition arises in the textbook market (maybe Google starts publishing their own ebooks for $9). Until then, you'll be stuck paying $159 for a new textbook, $149 for a used copy, or $129 for an ebook. And you can rest assured that many professors won't give you the textbook list until the first day of class, to reduce your window to purchase the books online and avoid the unversity profit-center.
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Re: ebooks

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:12 pm

As Corth said, you're not buying a book, you're buying the intellectual property. Having a physical book makes theft of the intellectual property MUCH harder. We're lucky it doesn't cost more for the ebook.

A large part of the largess of publishing a text book is in marketing. Marketing is probably a term that covers all sorts of stupid crap and parties and incentives to colleges to buy particular books or use a new book every year. The campus bookstore cut is not that big.

Campus bookstores are getting a good cut 10-15% generally (maybe as high as 25%), but lets be honest here... if the profit was all in the middleman, a middleman SOMEWHERE would reduce their prices to ramp up the volume. The prices are controlled by the publisher and are inflated because the market will bear it.

That being said, my wife uses some online textbook company and gets $20-$50 off each $150-250 book and a guarantee they'll buy it back for a specific prices (at the time you purchase the book). Sometimes we buy the previous edition and save 50-75%, but that entails some extra work on her part of course.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Corth » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:03 pm

Ideally individual teachers and professors can choose their own textbooks, as they are more likely to take into account the cost to their students than a university. What you want here is competition. If the curriculum requires a certain textbook, and there is collusion between the school and the textbook publisher to keep costs high - well that isn't really fair at all.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: ebooks

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:14 pm

Ragorn wrote:So instead of paying $15 for 13 songs, you're paying $1 a song for just the ones you want. Ok... that model doesn't really work for books, because I don't see them moving to a model where they sell chapters individually.


Actually, I've been seeing today many different college textbooks that sell individual chapters online between $2.99 to $4.99 a chapter.

Two books some of my Seniors use: The Penguin History of Latin America. Sells for $4 - $10 online, $14 on Amazon. Kindle price: $12.
A History of Latin America: $72

Unacceptable.

Both are intellectual property. Both authors did a history of Hispanic America. One is billed as a college textbook, the other isn't. I've read both, pretty much the same crap. The more expensive one has "some" more detailed information on the economic side of history and more on the literary side of history, but both contain the same bulk important stuff. But, since it's sold as a college textbook, boom, $60 more. I would understand $40, I really would. I'm going to re-read both this summer. If I really feel the Penguin one is good enough, I'm ditching the other turd.

I know you want to defend it Corth, as people willing to pay the extra $60-100 for college textbooks/ebooks, and the market following suit. But I think here there is no competition or alternative. The professor checked out his options, found the book he most liked, and realized the difference between all his Psychology textbook options price-wise was $5-$10. Shrug, it all smells of gouging and profiteering to me, not free-market competition.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:38 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:I know you want to defend it Corth, as people willing to pay the extra $60-100 for college textbooks/ebooks, and the market following suit. But I think here there is no competition or alternative. The professor checked out his options, found the book he most likedfound the book that gave him the most kickbacks, and realized the difference between all his Psychology textbook options price-wise was $5-$10. Shrug, it all smells of gouging and profiteering to me, not free-market competition.

Not criticizing, just felt like this was an appropriate add-on.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Corth » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:29 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:I know you want to defend it Corth, as people willing to pay the extra $60-100 for college textbooks/ebooks, and the market following suit. But I think here there is no competition or alternative. The professor checked out his options, found the book he most liked, and realized the difference between all his Psychology textbook options price-wise was $5-$10. Shrug, it all smells of gouging and profiteering to me, not free-market competition.


Ragorn kind of changed my mind on this issue pointing out the collusion between the schools and the textbook manufacturers. I agree it's a problem if there is a lack of competition. If schools are forcing their students to buy particular textbooks at inflated prices with the school getting a kickback.. that's a racket, not a market.

The only thing I'm still not entirely clear on - in the public schools textbooks are provided for free. So we are just talking about private schools and then also colleges and universities. Now I can see a private high school imposing a curriculum and demanding certain textbooks be used. But in my experience college professors are allowed to choose whatever books they want. So that doesn't really seem like much potential for collusion - though perhaps someone can better fill me in on the details.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: ebooks

Postby Botef » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:55 pm

I actually run a textbook buyback program out of my shop as an extra source of income. While I can't speak for how the book publishers value things, one aspect of valuing used books is the potential future lifespan of the book. Books on physics, economics, architecture, etc often hold their value because the need to update the material is lesser than books on subjects that change more frequently. Law books are probably some of the worst at retaining value because they seem to be reprinted every year to include relevant material. Oddly enough, they are also some of the most expensive ones to buy new. I'm speculating here but I suspect publishers price their books so that if for some reason they only sell a limited portion of the books they print they still make a good profit, since the books can't be retained and sold in the future like a novel or other type of book could be. The universities don't complain or change their practices because their bookstores make a profit on the books too.

From my experience though, while professors choose which textbook to use they are often required to choose something the University can make available to students through their bookstore. About the only control students have in regards to a market price is alternative sources for a book, like the used books I sell back to students.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Corth » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:59 pm

Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: ebooks

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:28 am

For instance, one electrical engineering book, "Analog Signal Processing," was found for under $8, compared with $140 on Amazon.com.


...yeah...uh...

Mr. Frey added that he doubted that the imports would abate unless publishers deal with the root cause: the high cost of textbooks, which can run as high as $250 for engineering courses.

"I think it's a classic case where companies have gotten fat and don't realize what they're doing," Mr. Frey said.



And remember Corth, I'm usually on your side here :) I just really believe in this case, there is no market, no competition. Just gouging/profiteering. Regarding your question about college textbooks: let's say professors can choose all their textbooks. But, what if regardless of which one they choose, the cost of any of those books is around the same price? That seems to be the case I think. Our US History teacher recently switched from his old textbook he had been using for years, to a new one. He switched to try and reduce the cost for students, buying one with no pictures, and being told the price he was quoted would remain more or less the same. This year, the price went from around $45 to $80. My textbook, which we've been using there for years and years (good for our demographics), went up this year from $78 to $126.

I wonder if the prices are artificially raised to get more money from the government for the public school books? Ala the $1k government hammers, etc.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:59 am

If it wasn't for pervasive piracy, I imagine MP3s would be at a much higher price as well.
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Re: ebooks

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:50 pm

Funny enough, I just got an email with this article about ebooks and price-fixing.
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Re: ebooks

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:08 pm

Its funny how apple, competitively entering the ebook market, resulted in higher prices because the manufacturer was able to use competition to get the best price for their product. I've never really thought about that dynamic, but it seems like its more and more important with things like Fox's negotations with the cable companies etc...

Also its funny that the "most favored nation" clauses are illegal, unless your medicare/medicaid. If you take medicare and give someone a cheaper price than medicare pays you, medicare is entitled to that price retroactively.

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