DREAM act

[kiryan]

So can some liberal please explain to me why you think its a good idea to grant amnesty to millions of illegals brought to America as kids who go to college or serve in the military? Are these the jobs that no American will do? I read the other day about one completed an accounting degree and is now illegally doing the books for a landscaping company. He's just doing what he has to do right? What he was forced to do right because there was no legal way right? No, he's doing what he wants to do because he thinks hes entitled to live here.

Can someone explain to me how subsidizing illegal tuition with an education system that has been overburdened with students for at least 10 years is a good thing when the whole damn country is going broke? How much lower would the tuition hikes be in California if we kicked all the illegals out of the system? How much lower would student to teacher ratios be if we kicked the illegals out of the k12 system? How much lower would healthcare costs be without millions of illegal immigrants in the emergency rooms? How much money would we save in printing and salary differentials if we stopped supporting spanish?

Can someone also explain to me how this is not back door amnesty for ALL illegal immigrants and pretty much all of Mexico as well? Citizens can sponsor immigration applications for relatives, my dad easily brought my mom's entire family from Korea to America using this system.

If we are going to implement DREAM act, why even have immigration controls? Just run an international background check and make anyone who wants to be an American citizen...

and after that, can someone please defend Harry Reid's drafting of 5 differnt DREAM act bills and trying to bring all 5 to the senate floor?

[Corth]

First, they should make it a lot easier to legally immigrate into this country.
Second, they should make it very difficult to live here if you are indeed here illegally.

I mean - why make it illegal to enter if we are going to just tolerate it? And at the same time, if we really need more immigrant labor, why not allow them to come here and work legally? US immigration policy is irrational and sends mixed messages to all involved.

[kiryan]

Hmm...

While your recommendations sound rational... should they really make it easier to immigrate? or make it take less time...

The reason for the length of time is several part including target immigration rates and weeding out people who aren't serious go getters. Would you want to see a million immigrants admitted to the US each year? 10 million? 100 million?

How do you accept that when we have so many entitlements? I might agree for a more liberal immigration policy, but not without eliminating the free rides. one without the other is unsustainable.

I definitely agree with the "make it harder to live here illegally"

[Corth]

I guess I just don't see the big deal with allowing people to enter the country. Immigration is a source of economic strength as far as I can tell.

[Kindi]

economic strength but cultural weakness. (note i agree with corth despite saying that)

[Sarvis]

economic strength but cultural weakness. (note i agree with corth despite saying that)

Cultural weakness... hrm. One could say that the biggest strength of our culture is the amalgamation of so many other cultures. It's not as if we've ever had any kind of pure culture... it's always been a mix of cultures from various parts of the world.

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

I agree here with what Sarvis said. (I'm now cutting my veins as we speak)

BUT.

The major difference I think Kindi was referring to is that in the past those different cultures would come here and their specific traditions or customs would INTEGRATE into the larger culture, as they themselves would as well. I think what we're seeing now ALOT (especially amongst many Hispanic groups in certain parts of the country) is the purposeful attempt at NOT integrating. They consider themselves x-nationality first, not American. That's the cultural weakness being referred to I think Sarvis. Amalgamation vs. separation.

[Kindi]

ya

[Sarvis]

I agree here with what Sarvis said. (I'm now cutting my veins as we speak)

BUT.

The major difference I think Kindi was referring to is that in the past those different cultures would come here and their specific traditions or customs would INTEGRATE into the larger culture, as they themselves would as well. I think what we're seeing now ALOT (especially amongst many Hispanic groups in certain parts of the country) is the purposeful attempt at NOT integrating. They consider themselves x-nationality first, not American. That's the cultural weakness being referred to I think Sarvis. Amalgamation vs. separation.

You mean like Chinatown? Or early on in NYC when each group of immigrants basically had their own territory and weren't welcome outside of it?

Integration takes time. Generations sometimes. But what really causes a group to separate themselves is constant demonization. The more accusations and laws that are thrown at these people the less they want to integrate with our society.

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

Integration takes time. Generations sometimes. But what really causes a group to separate themselves is constant demonization. The more accusations and laws that are thrown at these people the less they want to integrate with our society.

Yes, sometimes it takes a generation or two to complete the integration, 100% true. But what happens when you have groups who have been here for MANY generations and still REFUSE to integrate? And not only REFUSE, but also demand attention, representation, etc? I don't remember the Chinese seeking special treatment, language acceptance, government handouts, etc. I don't see them rioting or protesting in the streets, etc. That's the difference.

[kiryan]

Good point Sarvis/Kindi.

We really need to look at what is happening in Europe with their liberal immigration policies and their muslim communities as an example. Sharia law is the local law in come English communities. France banned the hijab for teachers and then even more broadly. You also have to understand the muslim culture, in a very real way, they go and out breed countries as a means of taking over "non violently" slowly over several generations.

The culture and turf wars of early America were very real for a very long time. The irish in particular operated like a mob and it took concerted action over a long period of time to "integrate" them.. Today it would be known today as racial profiling and discrimination. A lesser known AZ law passed early this year and basically put they kaibash on politically oriented classes that were teaching hispanic students a radical its not fair agenda.

but regardless of all that, as long as we continue to be an entitlement state, a redistribution of wealth state, immigration must be strictly controlled. You can not open the immigration floodgates when 46% of Americans pay 86% of the tax, the top 1% pay 24% and 47% of Americans pay no tax. Oh and 40% of that 47% that don't pay tax, actually get a refundable tax credit.

There can be no immigration reform without entitlement reform perhaps even voting reform. You simply can't allow 10s of millions of new immigrants to overburden the system and then vote for additional benefits. It just can't work.

[Teflor Lyorian]

The problem with modern immigration, as opposed to the days of open borders, is that modern world transportation is available to nearly all of the world's citizens, with the exception of the poorest of the poor.

Fifty years ago, it was quite an effort to get to the United States from a faraway nation. These days, it can be as trivial as extra bus transfers northbound from South America.

[Sarvis]

The problem with modern immigration, as opposed to the days of open borders, is that modern world transportation is available to nearly all of the world's citizens, with the exception of the poorest of the poor.

Fifty years ago, it was quite an effort to get to the United States from a faraway nation. These days, it can be as trivial as extra bus transfers northbound from South America.

Considering the big outcry is about Mexicans these days, I'm not sure that's a huge part of the issue...

[kiryan]

I think you missed the point. Because it used to take months to get to America, immigrating was truly a major endeavor and attempted by a motivated few.

Today, a $1000 plane ticket will get any of Earth's 6 billion people from anywhere in the world to to America in 17 hours or less. If you live in Mexico its $40 bus ticket.

[Teflor Lyorian]

I'll explain this carefully in case I was somehow misunderstood. Vastly expanded mobility to all people of the world have made the immigration to the United States much easier for any person, including those who would not dreamed of undertaking the trip before.

Sarvis:

The average distance from areas of Mexico to the US/Mexican border is approximately 1,700 km. Considering most people outside of Europe and North America rarely travel 200 km from their birthplace over the course of their lifetime until recently, that would mean that the modern accessibility to long-distance transportation has made it a huge part of the issue, yes, even for Mexicans.

[kiryan]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/12/08/ ... tml?hpt=T2

Real tear jerker, I mean I was almost convinced that this poor little boy who was brought to america by his parents and is now a standout law school student and soon to be graduate who wants to serve his country. Really heart warming stuff.

or is it a poor little boy who'se parents came to america to steal government benefits from your family by overloading a system. Has stolen a spot from an american kid aspiring to go to law school. Has stolen tax dollars by getting subsidized tuition. Whose parents have probably never paid taxes (except sales tax). Really lets get some perspective, every job, every dollar in government benefit, every slot at college or k12 school comes at a cost to American kids.

and then lets not forget the crimes:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2009/ ... -u-s-crime

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_ ... crime.html

http://torchlight.typepad.com/torchligh ... ave-i.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,499424,00.html
(chandra levy, raped and killed by an illegal immigrant in NY)

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=39031

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/30/il ... a-rancher/

---

but dream act is only going to help the worthy immigrants. RIIIGHT. This is amnesty, first you legalize their kids, then the kids legalize their parents. You want a dream act taht turns out a bunch of worthless college graduates in baking, hispanic studies and other liberal degrees?

You want a merit based immigration policy? Let anyone who wants to immigrate to the USA take the SAT and score in the 99th percentile for American kids become a provisional citizen pending completion of a 4 year Sciences degree and then we'll make them and anyone else in their immediate family who can speak english fluently citizens. That way we know they're smart and that they can speak english. Now that is a dream act I can support. Not some bleeding heart bullshit about how a kid shouldn't be responsible for his parents actions of being brought to the USA illegally.

[Sarvis]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/12/08/dream.act/index.html?hpt=T2

Real tear jerker, I mean I was almost convinced that this poor little boy who was brought to america by his parents and is now a standout law school student and soon to be graduate who wants to serve his country. Really heart warming stuff.

or is it a poor little boy who'se parents came to america to steal government benefits from your family by overloading a system. Has stolen a spot from an american kid aspiring to go to law school. Has stolen tax dollars by getting subsidized tuition. Whose parents have probably never paid taxes (except sales tax). Really lets get some perspective, every job, every dollar in government benefit, every slot at college or k12 school comes at a cost to American kids.

:roll: Really, how do you apply for student aid without a social security#? Or any other type of help? And how limited are "slots" in college these days?

Theoretically, for that matter, if a kid had actually dropped on American soil he'd be a citizen... so how big of a deal is that for you? Seriously put THAT in perspective. A pregnant woman crossing the border and the baby drops out either before or after crossing... does a 5-foot difference in birthplace make him a thief in your eyes?

[kiryan]

I'm for birthright citzenship reform too. speaking of which, god knows how many baby's were "certified" as being born in America by corrupt midwives and doctors working along the border.

Every public college slot is heavily subisidized by the state and federal government. To the tune of average about 6.5k a year iirc.

And to answer your question about how limtied the slots are at college... consider the conservative estimates of 1 million illegal immigrant students already here will use this program. Have you ever heard of tuition going down at a college? Cuz all I heard, especially lately, is about tuition going up. How are we going to service another 1 million students when they are already having to raise tuition just to stay solvent? Remember again, tuition is heavily subsidized. The more students you educate, the more money the college "loses" without government reimbursement.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-11-19/us/c ... g?_s=PM:US

students and faculty protest a 32% increase in tuition costs.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/18 ... c-20101119

tuition going up 8%

for a conservative spin on the numbers
http://www.cis.org/dream-act-costs

[Sarvis]

I'm for birthright citzenship reform too.

So being born here isn't enough? Do we need a grandfather clause? How many generations does your family have to be here to actually be American? You know your family isn't native to this continent right?

As for the college costs... sorry, tuition isn't going up because too many people are going to college. It's going up because it can, and people will pay it because you need college to have a decent career these days. I don't think there are many colleges on the edge of insolvency...

[kiryan]

How about just at least one parent being an American. All current citizens and permanent greencard holders grandfathered in.

--

While you are right that tuition costs are going up because they can, the single biggest reason cited is a decline in financial support from government followed by increases in enrollment.

Every public college is insolvent without government support. The #1 reason cited for dropping out of colelge is cost. If students had to pay 25k a year to go to a satte college, they'd probably drop out or in a distant second go to a better private college (assuming private college tuition didn't go up from demand).

Look at the bottom of the link I posted.

California: Diff betwee in/out of state tuition 2009, $17,159. Thats the difference, not the total. Out of state tuition is based on the actual cost, in state is based on the subsidy. At a CC in California, the difference is $4,176. The median for the 10 states in the chart is about 14k/4k. The average for the other 40 is $14k/4k.

And forget all that... are you fuking smoking crack? You think you can add 1 million students to the system and have it cost nothing? Obviously, you haven't been to college. I suppose you don't beleive illegal immigration in the k12 system costs anything either.

[Sarvis]

Here's another travesty for you Kiryan: http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/st ... nt_1188462

[kiryan]

and while I was at lunch i thought of another one.

roughly 55% of every state's general budget is education and has been cut every year last couple years if not longer.

and you honestly think that needing to educate more kids, illegal amnestized or just plain americans won't cost more?

are you truly that stupid?

[kiryan]

lol she may be smoking hot, but she was hot for all of like 12 months. Did you see her in Will Smith's wild wild west. WuRST ACTRess EVAR!11!1!!!.

[Sarvis]

and while I was at lunch i thought of another one.

roughly 55% of every state's general budget is education and has been cut every year last couple years if not longer.

and you honestly think that needing to educate more kids, illegal amnestized or just plain americans won't cost more?

are you truly that stupid?

Ah. so if we don't let brown people into the country anymore, there won't be any more kids? :roll:

[Sarvis]

lol she may be smoking hot, but she was hot for all of like 12 months. Did you see her in Will Smith's wild wild west. WuRST ACTRess EVAR!11!1!!!.

Wild Wild West had nothing to do with her acting ability... she was pretty good on 30 Rock and she's got a few movies coming up.

[kiryan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/us/10 ... nted=1&hpw

So lets start with they are in the country illegally.

Then lets add that most drive without valid licenses or insurance

and why are they driving, “We have to work to support our kids, so we have to drive,”... so they are working illegally too.

and their car... sometimes stolen plates, sometimes legally registered... Can you register a car without a driver license? now we can add fraud to the list of crimes.

Now lets look at the some other stuff

rising from hamburger flipper to cashier to assistant manager.
(more of those jobs american's dont want, assistant manager).

About 80 percent of illegal immigrants are Hispanic, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, a nonpartisan research group.
(can't profile them because 20% are legal)

During its first year, which ended Nov. 16, immigration detainers were placed on 3,034 inmates, 93 percent of them Latino. Of a total of 6,662 charges those inmates faced, 21 percent were for ICE’s high-priority crimes, like aggravated assault and child molestation. But 45 percent were for traffic violations other than driving under the influence, including 469 detainees held only for driving without a license.

and the rebuttal...

The tear jerker, illegal gets hit by someone else, gets cited for not having a license, now is facing deportation. She was on her way to pick up her daughter for a medical appointment. Now the daughter may lose her mother. She wants to study medicine, not like she has that opportunity in Mexico and not like she can speak spanish. Boo hoo.

(this illegal, I'm assuming the daughter is illegal, wants to go to medical school, good thing we have plenty of open spots for that. no way it'll deny a legal american from getting into medical school if she gets in, none whatsoever. not to mention the hundred thousand of dollars in subsidies she would no doubtedly receive between regular college and special programs for medical schools)

“It’s like a persecution,” said Bishop Luis Rafael Zarama, the auxiliary bishop of Atlanta. “These laws only affect one group: the Latino community.”

(persecution LOL, somehow its not their fault that 93% of illegals are hispanic, its ours for being racist. Its our fault black kids and hispanic kids fail in public education and join gangs, its our fault.)