More European awesomeness

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Adriorn Darkcloak
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More European awesomeness

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:38 am

Sorry to all the good Europeans and their countries out there.

"Spain's military took control of the nation's airspace Friday night after air traffic controllers staged a massive sickout that stranded hundreds of thousands of travelers on the eve of a long holiday weekend, forcing the government to shut down Madrid's big international hub and seven other airports."

Some awesome tidbits:

"Spanish prosecutors said they were researching whether they could charge the controllers with crimes"

"To the unemployment line with you all!" one man yelled at the controllers."

And my favorite:

"The dispute intensified in February when the government restricted overtime and thus cut average pay of controllers from euro350,000 ($463,610) a year to around euro200,000 ($264,920)."

I know it's a stressful job. I know it involves long hours. But...$264k a year...and they're on strike? ahaha.

Spain. France. Countries that you see strikes and protests on the streets several times a week from different unions and organizations. Massive unemployment, economic disaster...and they're on strike. Awesome. Sorry, I just have a personal problem with Spain, had to put this one out there.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:30 am

I beleive air traffic controllers in the USA make a minimum of about 120k. Even if its only 75k or 80k... To direct air planes? Seriously?
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby dem » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:18 pm

Atleast in sweden u need a 3 years university degree to become a controller. You probably are responsible for 10 000+ lifes every day. I dont see what the fuss about their paycheck etc is all about.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Corth » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:05 pm

What ever happened to PATCO?

:)
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:41 pm

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos108.htm

Air traffic controllers earn relatively high pay and have good benefits. Median annual wages of air traffic controllers in May 2008 were $111,870. The middle 50 percent earned between $71,050 and $143,780. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $45,020, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $161,010. The average annual salary, excluding overtime earnings, for air traffic controllers in the Federal Government—which employs 90 percent of all controllers—was $109,218 in March 2009.

** figure their health and retirements benefits are better than average.

Air traffic controllers are eligible to retire at age 50 with 20 years of service as an active air traffic controller or after 25 years of active service at any age. There is a mandatory retirement age of 56 for controllers who manage air traffic

** retire after 20 years. I'll be lucky to retire.

There are three main pathways to become an air traffic controller with the FAA.
...
Second are applicants from the general public. These applicants must have 3 years of progressively responsible full-time work experience, have completed a full 4 years of college, or a combination of both.

** In America, its not exactly limited to having 3 years of college education. You can come from the military, meet the above condition or have the air traffic controller degree/certification.

Even if you have to have a 3 year degree that is a relatively minor amount of education to earn a 6 figure salary plus great benefits. Primary Care physicians in America maybe make that amount with 10 years of education. MAYBE, and certainly won't if they allow that 25% medicare rate cut go into effect.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:31 pm

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europ ... al/?hpt=T1

How the French do business: a French court has found an American airline company and an American airline mechanic responsible for the Air France Concorde crash alone.

You know, the overloaded, unbalanced Air France Flight 4590 that wasn't outfitted with the safety suggestions made by the NTSB to their French counterpart 20 years before.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:01 pm

dem wrote:Atleast in sweden u need a 3 years university degree to become a controller. You probably are responsible for 10 000+ lifes every day. I dont see what the fuss about their paycheck etc is all about.


The corner traffic light sees around 100k people pass through it every day. Does the guy who changes the light bulb on it get paid that much too? My problem wasn't their salary (mainly), it was that they were protesting over it; in a country with major economic problems and high unemployment.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:17 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:The corner traffic light sees around 100k people pass through it every day. Does the guy who changes the light bulb on it get paid that much too?


Wow.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:26 am

Image

2/2 today chief, grats.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:37 am

You compared a stop light to an air traffic controller, and accuse ME of trolling?

More like 3 for 3. Congrats.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:30 am

Sarvis wrote:You compared a stop light to an air traffic controller, and accuse ME of trolling?

More like 3 for 3. Congrats.

As far as his comparison of the metric of the number of lives in his hands, it seems fair. Regular working people doing the dirty work like maintaining traffic lights that makes our society possible rarely get any of the attention or reward as people in higher profile positions that don't have to get their hands dirty serving the flying rich do.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Kindi » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:21 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote: Regular working people doing the dirty work like maintaining traffic lights that makes our society possible rarely get any of the attention or reward as people in higher profile positions that don't have to get their hands dirty serving the flying rich do.

the material effect on those lives is qualitatively different and thus the two positions are not comparable. if the stoplight repairmen stops working, ppl treat broken lights as a stop sign, life goes on. if air traffic controllers stop working, planes crash and ppl die (or rather, they don't take off in the first place. see article at top of page)
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:50 pm

so you're saying without air traffic controllers planes wouldn't fly and so we owe them hundreds of thousands of dollars to look at a list of planes, change the radio to the right frequency and say your cleared to land on runway 12 with approach vector xyz or you're cleared to take off on runway 6?

While it may take a person with uncommon attention to detail and mental discipline... it doesn't take a rocket scientist.

They're over paid, grossly so. If they aren't then I'm underpaid, grossly so.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:53 pm

1) He wasn't talking about the maintenance workers, but the lights themselves.
2) How many people died in car accidents when the entire Eastern Seaboard lost power and no traffic signals were working? I went driving that day and was just fine without the traffic signals... and there were quite a few other people driving around too.

Meanwhile, a few moments inattention by an Air Traffic Controller can lead to the deaths of hundreds.

There's a difference there.

Lets put it in terms you conservatives can understand:

If it were possible to use a "traffic light" for airports, then airlines would do that to save money.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Kindi » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:59 pm

kiryan wrote:so you're saying without air traffic controllers planes wouldn't fly and so we owe them hundreds of thousands of dollars to look at a list of planes, change the radio to the right frequency and say your cleared to land on runway 12 with approach vector xyz or you're cleared to take off on runway 6?

While it may take a person with uncommon attention to detail and mental discipline... it doesn't take a rocket scientist.

i've heard it's a pretty tough job and the pay is commensurate
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:11 pm

you've heard its pretty tough from whom?

I've also heard that working an auto maker assembly line is pretty tough and they have to retire after 20 years.

I've also heard that working as a public speaker is pretty rough and they have to retire early in Italy.

I've also heard that "management" is pretty tough and they have to get extra vacation and higher pay.

I've also heard that being a CEO of a multinational company is pretty tough and they need hundreds of millions.

You want to know the toughest job I ever saw, counselors at a residential youth treatment facility. You think your job is tough, try working with these damaged kids, having them call you a f*king asshole and that your mother is a whore and they're going to kill your children. Take that every day then watch then continuously every day fuk thier life up until the point they go on a home pass, rape a chick because someone raped their gf and end up in jail. That is a tough job and they get paid $13 an hour with shitty benefits. Maybe they should be paid $120,000 a year too.

tough jobs, bullshit. every job has tough aspects. Even the professional tennis player has to deal with a job that literally wears out their body. Poor air traffic controllers... wah.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:15 pm

kiryan wrote:you've heard its pretty tough from whom?

I've also heard that working an auto maker assembly line is pretty tough and they have to retire after 20 years.

I've also heard that working as a public speaker is pretty rough and they have to retire early in Italy.

I've also heard that "management" is pretty tough and they have to get extra vacation and higher pay.

I've also heard that being a CEO of a multinational company is pretty tough and they need hundreds of millions.

You want to know the toughest job I ever saw, counselors at a residential youth treatment facility. You think your job is tough, try working with these damaged kids, having them call you a f*king asshole and that your mother is a whore and they're going to kill your children. Take that every day then watch then continuously every day fuk thier life up until the point they go on a home pass, rape a chick because someone raped their gf and end up in jail. That is a tough job and they get paid $13 an hour with shitty benefits. Maybe they should be paid $120,000 a year too.

tough jobs, bullshit. every job has tough aspects. Even the professional tennis player has to deal with a job that literally wears out their body. Poor air traffic controllers... wah.



Why is it that when people aren't getting paid enough you say they are getting paid exactly what the market thinks they are worth, but when someone is getting more than you think they should you start crying about how their job isn't really that tough?

They are getting what they are worth.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:21 pm

Kindi wrote:if the stoplight repairmen stops working, ppl treat broken lights as a stop sign, life goes on

Where do you live? It sounds like a nice place. Meanwhile, in the rest of the world, dead stoplights frequently kill people.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:32 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kindi wrote:if the stoplight repairmen stops working, ppl treat broken lights as a stop sign, life goes on

Where do you live? It sounds like a nice place. Meanwhile, in the rest of the world, dead stoplights frequently kill people.


Where do you live? In 2003 when Several States (I had originally heard the entire east coast, but it was just the northeast sorry) lost power there were 11 deaths. ELEVEN. And of those only TWO were car related. More people died to carbon monoxide poisoning than died to every traffic signal in 5 States shutting off:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_ ... Fatalities

One plane crash, even one of those small planes, would cause far more deaths than that.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:42 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kindi wrote:if the stoplight repairmen stops working, ppl treat broken lights as a stop sign, life goes on

Where do you live? It sounds like a nice place. Meanwhile, in the rest of the world, dead stoplights frequently kill people.


Where do you live? In 2003 when Several States (I had originally heard the entire east coast, but it was just the northeast sorry) lost power there were 11 deaths. ELEVEN. And of those only TWO were car related. More people died to carbon monoxide poisoning than died to every traffic signal in 5 States shutting off:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_ ... Fatalities

One plane crash, even one of those small planes, would cause far more deaths than that.

Given the number of blackouts and their frequency on the eastern seaboard, you've made my argument for me. Thanks.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:54 pm

Source: NHTSA's FARS, traffic accidents reported with a non-functioning or malfunctioning traffic control device in 2009

465 Fatalities

Source: NTSB AVIATION ACCIDENT STATISTICS, Scheduled Airline Service in 2009

50 Fatalities

That make it easy enough for you? I can go back a few more years, but that would be tough on your argument seeing as how there were zero for 2008 and 2007. Hell, I think a few of the 2009 fatalities actually occurred in Japan.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:49 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:you've heard its pretty tough from whom?

I've also heard that working an auto maker assembly line is pretty tough and they have to retire after 20 years.

I've also heard that working as a public speaker is pretty rough and they have to retire early in Italy.

I've also heard that "management" is pretty tough and they have to get extra vacation and higher pay.

I've also heard that being a CEO of a multinational company is pretty tough and they need hundreds of millions.

You want to know the toughest job I ever saw, counselors at a residential youth treatment facility. You think your job is tough, try working with these damaged kids, having them call you a f*king asshole and that your mother is a whore and they're going to kill your children. Take that every day then watch then continuously every day fuk thier life up until the point they go on a home pass, rape a chick because someone raped their gf and end up in jail. That is a tough job and they get paid $13 an hour with shitty benefits. Maybe they should be paid $120,000 a year too.

tough jobs, bullshit. every job has tough aspects. Even the professional tennis player has to deal with a job that literally wears out their body. Poor air traffic controllers... wah.


Why is it that when people aren't getting paid enough you say they are getting paid exactly what the market thinks they are worth, but when someone is getting more than you think they should you start crying about how their job isn't really that tough?

They are getting what they are worth.


Someone justified the high rate of pay based on having a "tough" job. I'm disputing that argument.

If they made the argument that the high rate of pay is based on the market, I would agree more. However, its based on artificial constraints the same way healthcare is artificially expensinve in the US because of the restrictions on supply and why cars are artificially expensive because of all the safety features. Unions play no small part in this as well or do you think its supply and demand when tens of thousands of people show up to apply for 100 longshoreman jobs that pay 120k?
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:58 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Source: NHTSA's FARS, traffic accidents reported with a non-functioning or malfunctioning traffic control device in 2009

465 Fatalities

Source: NTSB AVIATION ACCIDENT STATISTICS, Scheduled Airline Service in 2009

50 Fatalities

That make it easy enough for you? I can go back a few more years, but that would be tough on your argument seeing as how there were zero for 2008 and 2007. Hell, I think a few of the 2009 fatalities actually occurred in Japan.


So what you're saying is that air traffic controllers prevent accidents while traffic signals do not?
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:41 pm

He's saying traffic signal operators deal with more volume and more fatalities than air traffic controllers.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:36 pm

kiryan wrote:He's saying traffic signal operators deal with more volume and more fatalities than air traffic controllers.


There are no traffic signal operators. Traffic signals are automated.

If airports could use a simple automated system they would do so rather than paying 6-figure salaries to air traffic controllers.

Therefore the comparison Adriorn made is unbelievably silly. It's like comparing a deadbolt lock on your front door to the military guarding Fort Knox.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:52 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:He's saying traffic signal operators deal with more volume and more fatalities than air traffic controllers.


There are no traffic signal operators. Traffic signals are automated.

If airports could use a simple automated system they would do so rather than paying 6-figure salaries to air traffic controllers.

Therefore the comparison Adriorn made is unbelievably silly. It's like comparing a deadbolt lock on your front door to the military guarding Fort Knox.

You post this without basis. You don't know what you're talking about and to make matters worse, you don't know that you don't know what you're taking about. There are literally hundreds of thousands of jobs that are directly involved in automotive traffic control and control devices. It's an entire industry.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:55 pm

I know that without the existence of traffic signals, as occurred during the 2003 power outage across five states, very few people are hurt in car accidents.

Until you can show an airport with no air traffic controllers, you're just setting a new record for how much bullshit you can shovel.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:57 pm

Sarvis wrote:Until you can show an airport with no air traffic controllers, you're just setting a new record for how much bullshit you can shovel.

I can show you 839 airports in the continental United States without a single air traffic controller (not even counting heliports).

You just keep digging yourself deeper holes of ignorance, don't you?
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:02 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/0 ... 93028.html

Oxford, Cambridge haven't admitted a single black student in 5 years and have 0 black staff members out of something like 1500.

ok so that statement isn't 100% accurate, its close enough lol.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:34 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:I can show you 839 airports in the continental United States without a single air traffic controller (not even counting heliports).


Then do so.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:30 pm

Sarvis wrote:You compared a stop light to an air traffic controller, and accuse ME of trolling?


Considering this was my thread, on a post in which I was replying to someone else, yes. Correct.


I can't believe the analogy got so out of hand. Who cares how good or bad it was? The important point of all the posts has been, once again, missed or purposefully ignored, only to criticize a minor, useless part of the argument. This is what Sarvis does, and apparently Kindi sometimes as well.

Their current salary was never my concern; their going on STRIKE over it was. They willingly put the lives of thousands of people on hold, interrupted their plans, their businesses, to PROTEST their $260k a year salary, with benefits and one month vacation. But that's not important, the important thing is a light bulb. Right. haha.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Kindi » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:56 pm

shrug i was trying to say they think they're worth the price, and strikes are an accepted measure, or the govt would make them illegal and go kill ppl over it, like they did in the "good old days". you're allowed to complain about their strikes too, which they should take into account before they hold one. tho it sounds like everyone here thinks they're not worth that much, so, should just hire cheaper guys to do the work i guess. should be easy. i hear the current guys aren't coming into work any more....
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:14 pm

LOL just hire cheaper guys? How on earth would you do that? The union agreements guarantee you can't hire anyone else and if you do, you still have to pay them the exoirbitant rate.

but yea... anyone who bitches about making >100k a year for 40 hours a week is seriously bonkers. To strike over it is just beyond imagination and a sign you have too much much power.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Kindi » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:25 pm

they only have the power their employers give them. they don't have to sign all those union contract agreements you know

sounds like a bunch of class warfare to me (anyone earning over X has no right to complain? srsly?)
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:35 pm

are you serious? They have about as much choice as BP had of giving Obama 20 billion to hold in trust.

Once they vote to organize you MUST negotiate with them. You can't refuse and once the first contract is signed your stuck because it contains so many provisions that prevent you from ever walking away from them. If you refuse, a mediator can come in and impose a contract on you because you're negotiating in bad faith and its against the law. They certainly do not have a choice which is why businesses fight so hard to make sure unions never form in their company.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:47 pm

Kindi wrote:sounds like a bunch of class warfare to me (anyone earning over X has no right to complain? srsly?)


Read the article Corth linked above. It might help to shed some light on the history of air traffic controllers, unions, and strikes (here in the USA). I.E. the ILLEGAL part about government union(?!) workers going on strike. Also, some awesomeness+ by Reagan.

Once again (4x), this isn't about how much money they make (mostly), or about them complaining; it's about them going on STRIKE.


They had to fill over 11,000 positions immediately, in some cases bypassing the 3-year certification period, etc. How bad were our skies during those years? Thousands of dead all over the skies of the USA?
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:03 am

nice argument Adriorn.

I started a thread last year when I think the BA crews went on strike to during Christmas. They don't give a shit about the customer, all they care about is what they can force the company to give them through work stoppages. use the customers to complain to force the copmany to give in. And the liberal, union apologists here, say thats all right, what else are they supposed to do. make it as painful as possible, but don't blame the union, blame the company.

Sure, companies have a choice to accept unions. sure they do.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:24 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:You compared a stop light to an air traffic controller, and accuse ME of trolling?


Considering this was my thread, on a post in which I was replying to someone else, yes. Correct.


Oh sorry, didn't realize threads were private affairs. :roll:

I can't believe the analogy got so out of hand. Who cares how good or bad it was?


It was completely absurd. You can't say something so absurd without expecting it to get picked up on and carried forth. That's why it was such a trollish statement. You didn't say anything to your main point with that analogy, you made it sound like you consider air traffic controllers no better than an inanimate object.

It's just like that Simpsons episode where an Inanimate Carbon Rod gets a parade when Homer used it to save the space shuttle. You're argument was on the level of a joke from the Simpsons, except you were serious.


The important point of all the posts has been, once again, missed or purposefully ignored, only to criticize a minor, useless part of the argument. This is what Sarvis does, and apparently Kindi sometimes as well.


You said something that stood out more than your actual argument. Sorry for picking up on such an inane statement, but it happens. The important point was missed because you didn't really MAKE that point well. You did it so poorly, in fact, that you are the only one who was arguing about that while several others were arguing over your inane analogy. Had your point been stronger than your analogy, no one would have cared about or noticed the analogy.

Their current salary was never my concern; their going on STRIKE over it was. They willingly put the lives of thousands of people on hold, interrupted their plans, their businesses, to PROTEST their $260k a year salary, with benefits and one month vacation. But that's not important, the important thing is a light bulb. Right. haha.


The worst part is that you can't see how it all feeds back into your real point. You compared a human with a very complex job to a light bulb because you are upset that they "interrupted peoples' plans." Meanwhile their entire lives have been disrupted (seriously we're probably talking selling homes and shit) and they are so important that EVERYONE ELSES plans had to change if they don't show up for work.

Teflor is arguing that a traffic signal is of equal importance.
I'm arguing that it is not.

If it is not of equal importance to an air traffic controller, then maybe they DO deserve pay commensurate with that importance.

We might actually be focusing on your point if you'd offered any other arguments supporting it. Instead you compared a human to a light bulb. So congrats.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Kindi » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:40 am

i just don't see the big deal.

and stop calling me a liberal :P
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Corth » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:45 am

Kindi,

Point to one political position you have taken on this forum that isn't a liberal position. Until you can do that, I don't see how you can complain when people call you a liberal. Why WOULD you complain?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Kindi » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:56 am

Corth wrote:Kindi,

Point to one political position you have taken on this forum that isn't a liberal position. Until you can do that, I don't see how you can complain when people call you a liberal. Why WOULD you complain?

because i don't like labels. and i don't think any of my positions fall under 'liberal' since i'm not fully explaining what i think about these topics i'm just providing info and opinion-snippets.

the conversations on this forum do not take place at the level of detail and understanding required to reveal nuanced positions.

example: this thread.

* should ppl have the right to form unions? yes
* should govt require corporations to enable union contracts? complex answer
* how much power should unions have? complex answer
* should unions abuse their power? no
* what constitutes abuse of union power? complex answer
* does personal right to the use of shared, potentially government-controlled, services such as getting on a flight outweigh the potentially greedy or abusive personal grievances of an ATC union? complex answer
* which end of the above does this particular event fall under (greedy? abusive? justified? allowed, but wrong?). i don't even care! i never read the original article :P

but in this thread we have "strike bad! lol they get much moneys strike stupid" and "strike good! ppl worth what they think! union powah! fight da cheapo capitalist pigs!" as "conservative" and "liberal"? wtf is that.

but i guess i don't have time to fill out 'complex answer' anyway....
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:26 am

Sarvis wrote:The important point was missed because you didn't really MAKE that point well.


Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:I know it's a stressful job. I know it involves long hours. But...$264k a year...and they're on strike? ahaha


Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:My problem wasn't their salary (mainly), it was that they were protesting over it; in a country with major economic problems and high unemployment.


I said nearly verbatim the same exact thing in my 1st post and in my 2nd post. How was my point missed? Come on Sarvis...It goes back to my repeated sentence: you completely ignore anything of substance to focus on the inane. You been reading Alinsky?

Sarvis wrote:Meanwhile their entire lives have been disrupted (seriously we're probably talking selling homes and shit)


(I actually laughed a little when I read this.)

I lived with a butcher in Spain for several months. He made around 25k euros, union, etc. He was okay financially, but complained he wanted a little more. These guys are now making 264k euros. The military took over the airport traffic in a day I think. The obvious success of the mass-firing that Reagan did here showed how 'skillful' and 'irreplaceable' their job really is.

People in France/Spain go on strike weekly. I never really criticize them (just completely ignore), and I don't think I usually post articles about the weekly strikes. This was different, since this was just pure, unadulterated greed. It seems you will defend "strikes" regardless of the situation, since it's the "left-wing" thing to do.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:32 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:The important point was missed because you didn't really MAKE that point well.


Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:I know it's a stressful job. I know it involves long hours. But...$264k a year...and they're on strike? ahaha


Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:My problem wasn't their salary (mainly), it was that they were protesting over it; in a country with major economic problems and high unemployment.


I said nearly verbatim the same exact thing in my 1st post and in my 2nd post. How was my point missed? Come on Sarvis...It goes back to my repeated sentence: you completely ignore anything of substance to focus on the inane. You been reading Alinsky?


Maybe I capitalized the wrong word: The important point was missed because you didn't really make that point WELL.

Look, let's face it... when Black Swan is out of theatres the only thing people are going to remember is the lesbian scene between Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis. It stands out from the rest of the movie. Your analogy stood out from the rest of your post, and frankly the analogy was the ONLY "substance" you provided in support of your point. That was the problem. Had you actually provided some meaningful evidence you would have gotten meaningful responses... instead your entire argument rested on a shitty analogy.




Sarvis wrote:Meanwhile their entire lives have been disrupted (seriously we're probably talking selling homes and shit)


(I actually laughed a little when I read this.)

I lived with a butcher in Spain for several months. He made around 25k euros, union, etc. He was okay financially, but complained he wanted a little more. These guys are now making 264k euros. The military took over the airport traffic in a day I think. The obvious success of the mass-firing that Reagan did here showed how 'skillful' and 'irreplaceable' their job really is.

People in France/Spain go on strike weekly. I never really criticize them (just completely ignore), and I don't think I usually post articles about the weekly strikes. This was different, since this was just pure, unadulterated greed. It seems you will defend "strikes" regardless of the situation, since it's the "left-wing" thing to do.


I don't care what the specific salary is. How would your butcher deal with having his earnings drop by half? Maybe have to sell his house? The problem with any income level is that you tend to live AT it, so a sudden reduction is disruptive. Not saying these guys are going to end up homeless in the streets... but they ARE going to have to restructure their lives.

Think about it Adriorn, how happy would you be if your pay were cut nearly in half tomorrow?
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:13 am

think sarvis, they are public employees, who's income is being cut in half? Yours is to pay them to do a relatively easy job.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:35 pm

I'm not arguing that they are of equal importance. I'm arguing that you're dismissing them and diminishing their importance without cause, other than to save your insulting argument to Adriorn.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:41 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:I can show you 839 airports in the continental United States without a single air traffic controller (not even counting heliports).


Then do so.

Google "non-towered airports" and you will see what I am talking about. There happens to be a controllerless airport half a mile from my place that sees daily commercial traffic.

JUST like when the automotive traffic light is out, there are air traffic rules for how to treat a controllerless airport: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/fie ... twrapt.ppt
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby dem » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:28 pm

I can't understand why your complaining about unions and strikes? Just because they are making more money as an aircontroller in spain then they are in the US. Your complaining that they arent allowed to go on strike because of their pay? Hell in norway they have twice the pay for the same job as they do in sweden, but they arent living and working in sweden now are they? and the aircontrollers in spain arent living and working in the states right?
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:42 pm

We're arguing about it because the first thing everyone does to justify a change is point to someone else.

Air traffic controllers don't need to be making 125k, 250k or 500k. That is straight up stupid to pay a public employee that much money and let them retire after 20 years of service with cushy benefits. Its as egregious of a situation as CEO's getting 40 million guaranteed a year to ruin a company.

You liberals are so fond of pushing equality, where is the equity in an air traffic controller making 250k while a teacher makes 35k or a janitor makes 25k or a CNA makes 20k? With combat pay, I believe US soldiers deployed in a combat zone make around 90k a year... but an air traffic controller make 125k? and you want to defend it as being just and proper? No its an aberration caused by many reasons including unions, government and artifiicial restrictions on supply and demand. Not because the job is hard or they have a special skill.

This is exhibit #1 in how to pulbic employees, unions ruin a country.
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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Corth » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:58 pm

Dem,

There is a growing backlash in the US against overpaid government workers. It seems unfair that a small percentgage of public sector workers receive better compensation than the rest of us would get for similar work in the private sector. I think that perhaps the issue doesn't resonate with Europeans like yourself because in many European countries the public sector is actually larger than the private sector. So it isn't like a few people are winning a lottery at the expense of everyone else. Everyone else is in on it too.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: More European awesomeness

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:07 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:I can show you 839 airports in the continental United States without a single air traffic controller (not even counting heliports).


Then do so.

Google "non-towered airports" and you will see what I am talking about. There happens to be a controllerless airport half a mile from my place that sees daily commercial traffic.

JUST like when the automotive traffic light is out, there are air traffic rules for how to treat a controllerless airport: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/fie ... twrapt.ppt


So you're comparing airports with so little traffic they don't need a tower (but still get a specific section stating the increased danger) to major airports that actual airlines flying thousands of people use?

You're absolutely right, an airport that has two planes land a day can probably get by without a tower... much the same way a long country road that sees 2 cars a day doesn't get a stop light.

Until you show me an airport with the same level of traffic that, say, the Buffalo International Airport, gets you're talking out of your ass. All you've shown is that if you have little or no traffic you don't need traffic control.
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