information gathering KGB style

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kiryan
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information gathering KGB style

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:20 pm

Department of Homeland Security is now propagandizing everyone to inform. Apparently this was done in NY with the subway system and now Walmart is allowing them to run the campaign with their employees. The slogan is "if you see something, say something". Self professed next step is to bring it to public education.

You know like if you see a jew, report it to the SS. If you parents are practicing christianity, report it to the Russian authorities. See this kids, its a marijuana leaf, whats that jimmy, you've seen that at home?

If this propaganda takes hold, there is no preventing us from becoming Europe. Everyone in everyone's business telling them what to do how to live life properly, reporting them to the authorities. Sure it starts out about reporting terrorists, but then it evolves in to Bristol Palin unfairly beating Brandy on DWTS.

http://drudgereport.com/flash2n.htm

ridiculous
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:22 pm

no one thinks anything about this? this program is basically a public informant program... Like the Nazi's conducted to teach children to inform on their parents.

And its not the first time? Remember Healthcare? The WHITE HOUSE setup an email address where you could report people for disinformation in even "casual conversation".

http://davidonline.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... neighbors/

WTF people, are we going to go back to McCarthyism? a police state reminisicent of Nazi Germany or Cold war russia?

WAKE the fuck up.
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:35 am

Trash collectors to serve as eyes and ears in the street for police

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40707906

A former FBI agent recently trained all Waste Management drivers, helpers and technicians in Rensselaer and Albany Counties to act as a mobile community watch.

"They're on these routes every day so they're used to the normal situation so they are able to recognize a non-normal situation," explains Ken Bevis of Waste Management. Trucks are now armed with a cell phone, camera and incident reports so they'll have accurate information for police and, possibly, prosecutors.

"The drivers understand their main job is to observe and report and let authorities do their job," explains Bevis.

--

are you getting concerned yet? Doctors, Teachers, government workers are all mandatory reporters (and will lose their job / go to jail if they don't report). Walmart employees and the trash collector now being trained and equipped to report...

Where do we draw the line on turning ordinary citizens into the eyes and ears of the state?

I know I know, don't worry if you're not a criminal. Funny, I think I recall seeing this tactic before in mafia/gang movies. Just protecting the neigborhood yo.
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:57 pm

From what I understand, they're not required to report.
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:40 pm

teachers and doctors and at least the members of department human services are required in every state I've ever heard of to report "suspected abuse"... a very ambigious term that the DA is free to decide what it means.

Walmart and trash collectors... not required to report... yet. I wonder how it would go over if you declined to participate. How secure would your job be I wonder if you got on the news and disparaged the program (you'd be fired). Wonder if you'd get the same salary and promotions than if you enthusiastically supported the program.
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:16 pm

Shouldn't anyone report any crime they see happening anyway? Complete non-issue. I'd actually be pretty _happy_ if someone were breaking into my car and the garbage man called the cops.

Further, given that both garbagemen and cops are paid for by taxes this is just an efficient use of the money to increase our security.
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:55 pm

Shouldn't anyone report any crime they see happening anyway.

I think that is a personal choice not a moral responsibility. Do you report every speeder you encounter on the freeway? or yourself when you speed? Or every homeless person sleeping on a park bench? I occasionally report a dangerous speeder... Do you report yourself when you have more than you should drink and drive home? or your best friend? or your GF? Do you report chicks slapping guys around for domestic battery? Do you report yourself for pirating software? or your brother? Do you pay sales tax to your state on the items you buy in other states with no sales tax?

Really its none of your business, why are you making it your job to make sure everyone else is following the law as you understand it. This country was founded on the idea of living free from government intrusion into your personal and religious life. Instead we have a government that has written a law to cover every aspect of life in the interests of the public good, and a society that believes its their civic duty to report any and every transgression to the authorities.

Really, isn't this one of the classic "evil" themes of cold war era movies? The SS, the Gestapo, the KGB? 40 years ago we considered this the action of an illegitimate, over powerful, authoritarian communist government. Today, you argue that its just the right thing to do and that just blows my mind.
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:50 pm

Helping people and reporting on your neighbors to the cops SOMETIMES coincide and SOMETIMES part ways.

The important thing to remember is that they're not the same thing.
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:16 pm

kiryan wrote:Shouldn't anyone report any crime they see happening anyway.

I think that is a personal choice not a moral responsibility. Do you report every speeder you encounter on the freeway? or yourself when you speed? Or every homeless person sleeping on a park bench? I occasionally report a dangerous speeder... Do you report yourself when you have more than you should drink and drive home? or your best friend? or your GF? Do you report chicks slapping guys around for domestic battery? Do you report yourself for pirating software? or your brother? Do you pay sales tax to your state on the items you buy in other states with no sales tax?

Really its none of your business, why are you making it your job to make sure everyone else is following the law as you understand it. This country was founded on the idea of living free from government intrusion into your personal and religious life. Instead we have a government that has written a law to cover every aspect of life in the interests of the public good, and a society that believes its their civic duty to report any and every transgression to the authorities.

Really, isn't this one of the classic "evil" themes of cold war era movies? The SS, the Gestapo, the KGB? 40 years ago we considered this the action of an illegitimate, over powerful, authoritarian communist government. Today, you argue that its just the right thing to do and that just blows my mind.



I'd say there's a world of difference between CRIME and speeding. It's funny that you specified a woman beating a man... too afraid that most people actually would report a man beating a woman?

We're talking about the FBI here too. The FBI isn't handing out speeding tickets, they are trying to prevent things like terrorist bombings. Putting those on the same level is ridiculous.
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:46 pm

Its building a structure... Just like healthcare reform is the structure that will eventually get us to single payer and 100% government control over the healthcare sector this is the structure that turns into a massive informant network that turns into a police state.

You don't train people to be informant agents of the state in a free society. You make it easy for people to report concerns, but you don't equip and train them to do so.

Maybe we should equip and train black and hispanic people to report discrimination?

On the other hand, maybe we should expand this program. Maybe we could train social workers and police officers to identify illegal immigrants and deport them. No we couldn't do that could we. Train a trash collector to recognize an extremist, but we don't want any information on illegals.
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:33 am

kiryan wrote:Department of Homeland Security is now propagandizing everyone to inform. Apparently this was done in NY with the subway system and now Walmart is allowing them to run the campaign with their employees. The slogan is "if you see something, say something". Self professed next step is to bring it to public education.

You know like if you see a jew, report it to the SS. If you parents are practicing christianity, report it to the Russian authorities. See this kids, its a marijuana leaf, whats that jimmy, you've seen that at home?

If this propaganda takes hold, there is no preventing us from becoming Europe. Everyone in everyone's business telling them what to do how to live life properly, reporting them to the authorities. Sure it starts out about reporting terrorists, but then it evolves in to Bristol Palin unfairly beating Brandy on DWTS.

http://drudgereport.com/flash2n.htm

ridiculous



Umm... this article is about Earmarks, btw... guess I should have read it sooner but I ignored your original post. Sorry.
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:35 am

Anyway...

1)We're not talking about "people" we're talking about government employees or workers contracted by the government. They aren't actually different from cops, though they should probably get some kind of raise since their job responsibilities were just added to.

2) Do you feel the same way about a neighborhood watch?

EDIT:

3) Slippery Slope is still a logical fallacy
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:44 am

only a misguided intellectual trying to get a preferred outcome would argue that history repeating itself over and over and over is just a logical fallacy and invalid.

1) we aren't talking about just government employees. We're talkign about walmart employees too. We're talking about the next step in something something much larger.

We're talkign about databases of information on American citizens being shared across multiple state/federal agencies. collecting let alone sharing data like this was UNHEARD of 50 years ago as a violation of privacy and a dangerous path for government to take spying on its people. Now you think its a great idea.

In the 80s, there was a 60 minutes special and a phone # you could call and the government had to give you EVERY file they had on you because you had a right to know what information the government had on you. Social Security was and is I believe prevented by law from sharing its database with the police/feds... even with the IRS... because everyone in teh country was registered... I believe that part of the social security law expressly forbid the federal government form using your ssn to identify people for anything other than SS (obviously soemthings cahnged).

2) Neighborhood watches... are private citizens protecting their homes. Its not the same as the FBI coming in and training garbage collectors to spy or walmart employees to inform.
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:31 am

kiryan wrote:only a misguided intellectual trying to get a preferred outcome would argue that history repeating itself over and over and over is just a logical fallacy and invalid.


Ah Kiryan, when fallacies don't work you switch to personal attacks. Talk about history repeating itself...

1) we aren't talking about just government employees. We're talkign about walmart employees too. We're talking about the next step in something something much larger.


This is the first you've mentioned wal mart employees. I'll grant that that's a little different, but I still think they should report "real" crimes. If someone ran into wal mart firing a gun and no employee called the cops I'm betting some law suits could be filed against wal mart.


We're talkign about databases of information on American citizens being shared across multiple state/federal agencies.


We are? First you've mentioned it.

collecting let alone sharing data like this was UNHEARD of 50 years ago as a violation of privacy


Thought we were talking about history repeating itself, now it's something that was impossible 50 years ago?


and a dangerous path for government to take spying on its people. Now you think its a great idea.


Again, we weren't talking about that. We were talking about garbage men being trained to report crimes. So saying I think sharing databases is a great idea is... well, lying.

2) Neighborhood watches... are private citizens protecting their homes. Its not the same as the FBI coming in and training garbage collectors to spy or walmart employees to inform.



So what if these private citizens got some training from police or FBI so they could more effectively protect their neighborhood?
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby shalath » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:01 am

Wow, Mike. Get help. Seriously.

You're comparing a rubbish man keeping an eye on the neighbourhood to spot burglars, with the reporting of Jews to the SS? A doctor reporting a potentially abused child, with children informing on their parents in Nazi Germany? (I make no reference to Godwin's Law - there is no need, your comparisons are ridiculous on the face of it).

Mike, If this propaganda takes hold, there is no preventing us from becoming Europe? Seriously?

Please, talk to someone. We as a community care about you.

-simon

(Note: I am explicitly *not* taking Sarvis' side here, and I don't want it to be construed as such. I just happen to think Mike should spend some time talking to someone...before it's too late...)
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:04 pm

How did we get from the founding fathers to today.

It happens, is happening. Today we resemble "evil" Russia more than we do the US of 50 years ago.
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:21 pm

kiryan wrote:How did we get from the founding fathers to today.

It happens, is happening. Today we resemble "evil" Russia more than we do the US of 50 years ago.


I don't know about that. I do know there's a lot less of that Free Love going around... :(
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Re: information gathering KGB style

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:28 pm

shalath wrote:Wow, Mike. Get help. Seriously.

You're comparing a rubbish man keeping an eye on the neighbourhood to spot burglars, with the reporting of Jews to the SS? A doctor reporting a potentially abused child, with children informing on their parents in Nazi Germany? (I make no reference to Godwin's Law - there is no need, your comparisons are ridiculous on the face of it).

Mike, If this propaganda takes hold, there is no preventing us from becoming Europe? Seriously?

Please, talk to someone. We as a community care about you.

-simon

(Note: I am explicitly *not* taking Sarvis' side here, and I don't want it to be construed as such. I just happen to think Mike should spend some time talking to someone...before it's too late...)

Mike is talking about the slippery slope of encouraging neighbors to spy upon neighbors. It's a rational argument presented by far more intellectual and educated individuals at respected think tanks that bank on opinions such as the one he is presenting.

He needs help about as badly as you do and he has a valid point.

While it may sound unreasonable, try to consider what he's saying should things continue, long-term, in the direction that we are heading in. What Mike is talking about is how police states get started.
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