Terrorist attack in Sweden

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Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Corth » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:35 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40619873/ns ... ws-europe/

The Swedish news agency TT said it had received an email warning with a threat to Sweden and its people ahead of the blasts. The agency said the threat was linked to Sweden's presence in Afghanistan, where it has a force of 500 soldiers, mainly in the north.


It will be interesting to see how the Swedish public reacts. My expectation is that they will be demonstrating in the streets to bring their soldiers home from Afghanistan in order to avoid provoking more such attacks. Europeans have no balls. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:05 am

as opposed to the US, who would've used the fear to help invade a completely unrelated country? that's some balls for sure
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Corth » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:46 am

Kindi wrote:i predict the next successful domestic attack will be by a non-muslim, since all the muslims are talking to FBI guys, and all the white guys are ignored


Once again, a liberal proven wrong. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:02 am

wtf man? now you're just baiting. not a single person even bothered to respond to my post about stuff being complex. and that comment obviously has an implicit 'in the US', since there are no FBI guys in Sweden. and i'm not sure i'd consider 'killed self, injured 2 ppl' a "successful" attack. and it's not like i assigned odds and put a dollar value on it. troll forum is troll. and i'm just contributing more :( so pointless
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Corth » Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:46 am

I was waiting to call you out on that because it was an idiotic statement. Once you get past the PC bullshit you realize that it is in fact Muslims who are the ones planning attacks upon civilians en masse. The 'white guys do bad things too' meme that you parrot deflects from the primary issue facing the world right now - Muslim Extremism.

Moving on - it's interesting to me to watch the change in attitudes in Europe over time on the subject of Muslim Extremism. After 9/11 the sentiment coming out of Europe was basically: The US supports Israel. Israel is the reason for all these problems in the Middle East. Therefore, the US brought it upon itself.

But despite the general European support of Palestine and it's rejection of the war in Iraq, they have been targetted relentlessly. And you are starting to see right-wing politicians making substantial gains in local elections - even in countries that are traditionally very liberal like Sweden. Their Muslim immigrants are not becoming more Sweedish or French or German - but rather, they are becoming more radical. They literally want to institute Sharia law in Europe. At some point the Europeans will either have to fight back, or bend over. I am curious whether this most recent attack will give us any indication about what they ultimately plan on doing.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:38 am

What the fudge? Terrorist attacks happen every day. It just doesn't get in the news unless westerners are involved.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:12 pm

Corth wrote:the primary issue facing the world right now - Muslim Extremism.

strongly disagree

you want to see the real threat, that everybody realizes but decides is "just part of life" so doesn't even bother to talk about, but is vastly more important than 'muslim extremism'?

http://www.theonion.com/articles/millio ... -dead,721/

"As the body count continues to rise, a shaken nation is struggling to cope in the wake of the mass deaths sweeping the world population. With no concrete figures available at this early stage, experts estimate at least 250,000 U.S. citizens have died in the last month alone, with death tolls across the globe reaching into the millions.

The wave of deaths has left a brutal aftermath, rocking survivors with feelings of loss and horror, traumatizing the American cultural landscape to its core and leaving behind emotional devastation some say may take years to heal.

What's worse, experts say, the crisis shows no signs of letting up any time soon."

it's funny because it's true.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Corth » Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:37 pm

It's a very funny article but you are evading the issue.

These Muslim terrorists would detonate a hydrogen bomb over every major world capital if they could. And while they don't have such capabilities, it isn't through a lack of trying. In essence, they represent the single most viable existential threat to humanity at this moment. So let's talk about what's more important than that in a social/political sense. Don't ask don't tell? Guantanamo bay? Tax increases?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:24 pm

Corth wrote:In essence, they represent the single most viable existential threat to humanity at this moment.

ppl who have nukes are far more of a threat than ppl who want nukes. they can't blow you up with evil intentions. state actors, with plenty of resources, will always be a bigger threat. tho even they tend to want control rather than destruction.

http://singinst.org/upload/cognitive-biases.pdf

"All else being equal, not many people would prefer to destroy the world. Even faceless corporations, meddling governments, reckless scientists, and other agents of doom, require a world in which to achieve their goals of profit, order, tenure, or other villainies. If our extinction proceeds slowly enough to allow a moment of horrified realization, the doers of the deed will likely be quite taken aback on realizing that they have actually destroyed the world. Therefore I suggest that if the Earth is destroyed, it will probably be by mistake."
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Corth » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:40 pm

There is only one group that is actively seeking to kill millions of people - extreme muslims.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:43 pm

Corth wrote:There is only one group that is actively seeking to kill millions of people - extreme muslims.

my uncle thinks we should kill all the muslims (that's over a billion ppl) and he's a fairly regular conservative. so i guess it's mutual?
Last edited by Kindi on Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Corth » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:44 pm

Is he attempting to procure nuclear weapons in the international black market in order to carry out his goals?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:47 pm

he would prefer that the president do it. i'm sure there are plenty of groups looking for a way to start the proper anti-jihad. one might say Rumsfeld and the neo-conservative movement was the first success in that direction.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:51 pm

Corth wrote:Is he attempting to procure nuclear weapons in the international black market in order to carry out his goals?



Maybe he could ask the FBI... ;)
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Corth » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:39 pm

Kindi,

If your position is that the US government is more of a threat to the people of the world than the Muslim extremists who are looking to detonate nuclear weapons over large cities, then I don't think there is much for us to discuss here.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:14 pm

Corth wrote:Kindi,

If your position is that the US government is more of a threat to the people of the world than the Muslim extremists who are looking to detonate nuclear weapons over large cities, then I don't think there is much for us to discuss here.


His position is that there is a segment of our population that wants all the brown people dead, making us not so different from your "extreme muslims."

That his uncle isn't actively trying to acquire WMD and forming militia groups is a testament to our national laziness and passivity more than anything else.

Kind of interesting actually. All these conservatives believe in personal responsibility and doing things on their own instead of depending on the government, but all the ones who want to nuke the middle east into a pane of glass are waiting for the government to do it. I guess the government is only bad when it's trying to help people...
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:17 am

Sarvis wrote:...making us not so different from your "extreme muslims."


Yeah, I think that pretty much ends the discussion.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:59 pm

Corth wrote:But despite the general European support of Palestine and it's rejection of the war in Iraq, they have been targetted relentlessly. And you are starting to see right-wing politicians making substantial gains in local elections - even in countries that are traditionally very liberal like Sweden. Their Muslim immigrants are not becoming more Sweedish or French or German - but rather, they are becoming more radical. They literally want to institute Sharia law in Europe. At some point the Europeans will either have to fight back, or bend over. I am curious whether this most recent attack will give us any indication about what they ultimately plan on doing.


This is the single most convincing argument I have heard in a long time about the "problem" of muslim extremism. That Europe is still targetted even though America is obviously the great satan. They are willing to strike anywhere and everywhere they can and calling it a victory for Allah. Blowing up a "tourist" night club in Indonesia despite being home to one of the largest muslim populations in the world. The youth riots in France about 8 years ago was predominately muslim youth. The failure of most muslim populations to integrate into the country they immigrate too... And England has for several years allwed Sharia courst to handle disputes between muslims although it was supposedly unenforceable... recently it was determined they could enforce sharia law via the English legal system under their status as arbiters.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 749183.ece

They really do believe they will rule the world, and rule it under sharia law. Its in the koran, its in their fatwas and there is a very clear strategy documented in history for accomplishing this. It is targetted immigration then attempt to take power once they reach a certain % of population.

Its kind of like how 4square church organization targets small churches, they send in a few families, then over the course of several years get elected to the board of elders and transfer the church and its assets into the 4square organization.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:09 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:...making us not so different from your "extreme muslims."


Yeah, I think that pretty much ends the discussion.


So what, you think Americans are radically different from Middle Easterners? You think the creationists bombing abortion clinics are different from Muslim suicide bombers somehow?

Look, we're ALL fucking human. We all have the same drives and emotions. You are NOT different just because you were born in America. Sure, some Middle Easterners hate Americans because of how much we've meddled in their lives and often made things worse. But some Americans hate Middle Easterners because they've made terrorist attacks against us.

The biggest difference is that our attacks on them are primarily carried out by our government, while theirs are carried out by their radical extremists. You can find people on both sides, however, calling for the eradication of the other.

In the end, we're all just "ugly bags of mostly water" though.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Corth » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:22 pm

That is one of the essential differences in our belief systems. I believe there are both barbaric cultures and civilized ones. You think they are all equivalent.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:40 pm

Corth wrote:That is one of the essential differences in our belief systems. I believe there are both barbaric cultures and civilized ones. You think they are all equivalent.



Image

Do go on!

Actually, I won't say that there are no barbaric cultures in the world... I WILL say that the Middle East is probably a lot more civilized than you give it credit for and that a lot of the unrest and anger we see is caused by the West fucking with their governments constantly.

Can't excuse their treatment of women at all, of course. But again, we're all human and really want the same things. Is that really so hard for you to accept?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:50 pm

--yea gonna go with Corth here, there is a fundamental difference between a relatively peaceful religion with some extremists and a religion with lots of extremists.

"So what, you think Americans are radically different from Middle Easterners? You think the creationists bombing abortion clinics are different from Muslim suicide bombers somehow?"

--Yes different in sheer numbers. Christians for the most part reject violence to further their religion, Muslims for the most part at least accept it if not believe its Allah's will to kill the infidels.

"The biggest difference is that our attacks on them are primarily carried out by our government, while theirs are carried out by their radical extremists. You can find people on both sides, however, calling for the eradication of the other."

--i think this is a somewhat fair criticism. its like the English calling the American revolutionaries cowards and uncivilized for refusing to follow the established rules of engagement (stand, shoot, stand let them shoot).

The difference however is that we target their military/extremists, they target civilians. If you see that as a valid strategy and puts both parties on the same moral footing... we're just going to have to disagree. Also, there is a difference between accidental killing of civilians and walking into a tourist bar and blowing yourself up.

Additionally, you have to look at the root disagreement and make another moral judgement. Are these two equal in moral validity... Going to iraq to stop SH from getting WMDs... fighting the jews because the state of Israel should not exist... Regardless of the actual reasons behind either conflict, these are the stated reasons to justify the bloodshed.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:00 pm

There are violent, barbaric cultures. burying a woman to her neck in the sand and throwing rocks at her head until she dies is barbaric. throwing your small / weak children into a pit to die or exposing them to the elements until they die is barbaric. puncturing the skull of a 3rd trimester baby in womb is barbaric. I don't know enough about African or South American cultures, but I've read about some amazingly barbaric practices in their culture.

Make a list of barbaric actions and compare Muslim to Western society. There is a difference.

Whether they have equal right to exist and practice their culture as they see fit is a different question altogether. I'm actually in favor of a society that practices the Muslim take on women with the condition that they can't be compelled to live that way (meaning they can freely leave the society, not that you can walk around without your hijab because you have a right).
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Pril » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:05 pm

kiryan wrote:--yea gonna go with Corth here, there is a fundamental difference between a relatively peaceful religion with some extremists and a religion with lots of extremists.

"So what, you think Americans are radically different from Middle Easterners? You think the creationists bombing abortion clinics are different from Muslim suicide bombers somehow?"

--Yes different in sheer numbers. Christians for the most part reject violence to further their religion, Muslims for the most part at least accept it if not believe its Allah's will to kill the infidels.

"The biggest difference is that our attacks on them are primarily carried out by our government, while theirs are carried out by their radical extremists. You can find people on both sides, however, calling for the eradication of the other."

--i think this is a somewhat fair criticism. its like the English calling the American revolutionaries cowards and uncivilized for refusing to follow the established rules of engagement (stand, shoot, stand let them shoot).

The difference however is that we target their military/extremists, they target civilians. If you see that as a valid strategy and puts both parties on the same moral footing... we're just going to have to disagree. Also, there is a difference between accidental killing of civilians and walking into a tourist bar and blowing yourself up.

Additionally, you have to look at the root disagreement and make another moral judgement. Are these two equal in moral validity... Going to iraq to stop SH from getting WMDs... fighting the jews because the state of Israel should not exist... Regardless of the actual reasons behind either conflict, these are the stated reasons to justify the bloodshed.



I have to disagree with you Kiryan. I think that there ARE two cultures at play and one is barbaric and one is not but I would not say that Muslims are barbaric while others are not. I would say that religious extremists are barbaric and others are not. I know plenty of muslims who are peaceful and have utter disdain for terrorism/suicide bombers. On the same hand there are plenty of religions fanatics be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or anything else that use the texts of their respective religions to attempt to either further their views no matter hos stupid they are or to excuse behavior that I find little excuse for. Muslims do it with suicide bombings, Christians do it by blowing up abortion clinics or what not, Jews have their own issues as well. As far as the number of casualties I would say that overall Muslims at the moment have a higher head count that Christians or Jews do but lets not forget that not that long ago Christians ran the Crusades in an attempt to "spread the word" and killed a lot of people, or the Spanish Inquisition, etc. The Muslims are just a little behind the curve as to when they commit horrible acts of violence for their religion.

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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:14 pm

kiryan wrote:--yea gonna go with Corth here, there is a fundamental difference between a relatively peaceful religion with some extremists and a religion with lots of extremists.

--Yes different in sheer numbers. Christians for the most part reject violence to further their religion, Muslims for the most part at least accept it if not believe its Allah's will to kill the infidels.


That's what you get when religion and government are closely tied to each other. If everyone Believes, everyone starts to believe even more. That's why even in America you get the religious extremists in the "Bible Belt" and not in, say, NYC or California. You stick enough people together who only reaffirm their own beliefs and they just keep believing MORE.

Then take a guy like Fred Phelps and you can organize those people into something... and if you happen to be pissed off at another country for whatever reason, well you get the idea.

I don't think "Christians" reject violence to promote their religion. Hell, the whole Middle East thing started with the Crusades right? Back when THEY were the civilized ones with advanced math, and we were on a Jiha... err... Holy War against them.

I think Rich Westerners with a lot to lose reject violence. Face it, no one with a yacht wants to blow themselves up to prove a point.


--i think this is a somewhat fair criticism. its like the English calling the American revolutionaries cowards and uncivilized for refusing to follow the established rules of engagement (stand, shoot, stand let them shoot).

The difference however is that we target their military/extremists, they target civilians. If you see that as a valid strategy and puts both parties on the same moral footing... we're just going to have to disagree. Also, there is a difference between accidental killing of civilians and walking into a tourist bar and blowing yourself up.


When we install a dictator who starts killing off civilians it makes little difference, honestly. Then again, Christian Westerners in the IRA have bombed public places so you can't even say it's an Islam thing.

You CAN, however, say that People are People.

Additionally, you have to look at the root disagreement and make another moral judgement. Are these two equal in moral validity... Going to iraq to stop SH from getting WMDs... fighting the jews because the state of Israel should not exist... Regardless of the actual reasons behind either conflict, these are the stated reasons to justify the bloodshed.



Ok fine, stop Hussein from getting WMD. For the sake of argument, anyway.

The question is, what was the moral justification for putting Saddam in power in the first place? How many civilians died because of THAT?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:12 pm

Pril the problem with your disagreement is causality. You can't sit up there on the pulpit and preach death to the jews and then say well the 1% of my congregation that went out and committed violence against jews is a different culture. I'm sure you know lots of muslims who are not violent and are as peaceful or more so than the average christian, but it is undeniable that there is a large group of muslim extremists across the entire world blowing shit up. It is undeniable that every time someone prints a picture of muhhamed, there are riots across the globe and several clerics issue fatwa's calling for their deaths. While there may actually be this separation of barbaric and non barbaric muslims, the lines are very blurry imo because of the numbers and scope. Also, look at muslim's refusal to condemn the actions en masse. If Muslims want to establish themselves as a legitimate, peaceful religion, EVERY such cleric and muslim believer needs to come out and condemn these actions. The failure to do so legitimizes the terrorism conducted in the name of Islam. The contributions to the charities tacitly approves of these terrorist actions. If I was donating to the KKK, people would stop associating with me. If you donate to Hezbollah, how many muslims would turn their back on you?

and again the final problem with your disagreement is the sheer numbers. How many killings and suicide bombings have been attributed to Christian extremism vs how many for muslim extremism? It does happen, but how do you look at a religion like Buddhism and say its no different than one Islam in terms of barbarism? There are barbaric religions, Christianity at the past and may be presently among them compared to Buddhism.

--

Who knows what the original source of the middle east conflict was. I want to say in the 300s or so muslims took over the middle east and kicked the jews out. They've been fighting ever since, the crusades were just the next iteration of that cycle. The romans kicked thier asses before that and an entire city commited suicide rather than submit to roman rule.

Clearly the crusades were not right Sarvis. I don't think you'll find many today that will say Jerusalem must be in judeo-christian hands or we should go to war over it. Not the same answer you'll get from Muslims. Also, the crusades were how long ago? This is your favorite counter to Christian's aren't violent anymore. So does that mean since your great great grand father was a pedophile, you are too?

--"I think Rich Westerners with a lot to lose reject violence. Face it, no one with a yacht wants to blow themselves up to prove a point. "

rich people commit suicide regularly. rich is not a cure to a problem. poverty provides a breeding ground for this kind of extremism, but so does religion. Poor christians aren't rising up to commit suicide attacks, poor muslims are. Also, again they aren't claiming to be fighting against poverty, they are fighting westernism. They are fighitng the jews, they are fighting non muslims. Remember, we kicked Hitler's ass for waging a war against a race and that fact is celebrated.

--"When we install a dictator who starts killing off civilians it makes little difference, honestly."
--The question is, what was the moral justification for putting Saddam in power in the first place? How many civilians died because of THAT?

So remind me were you for or against the iraq war? Do we get any credit for fixing our apparent mistkae? Fidel Castro was supported by the US too... the intentions do make a difference. When you try and help but cause trouble its different than when you go and just start killing people because they are don't practice sharia law. I'm still on the fence about interfering with foreign governments... I'm not excited about it, but really do you let millions of North Koreans live in abject poverty because of 1 man whose father was promised by the military that they would repay his actions with 3 generations on the throne?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:01 pm

Sarvis wrote:You think the creationists bombing abortion clinics are different from Muslim suicide bombers somehow?


There have been 9 deaths due to abortion clinic attacks worldwide. 9. Contemporary Islamic extremist attacks are at over 3,000.

Sarvis wrote:We all have the same drives and emotions.


Disagree here. Same emotions yes, but not the same way to demonstrate them. And as far as drives go, no.

Sarvis wrote:You are NOT different just because you were born in America.


I wasn't born here. :) But yes, I am very different, psychologically, socially, and culturally from them.

Sarvis wrote:Hell, the whole Middle East thing started with the Crusades right?


Muslims invaded Spain in 711. They then tried expanding northward and eastward. Before that they had kept mostly to their own region. If you wanna play the 'You started it first game', they did.

kiryan wrote:Also, the crusades were how long ago? This is your favorite counter to Christian's aren't violent anymore. So does that mean since your great great grand father was a pedophile, you are too?


That too.

Sarvis wrote:Then again, Christian Westerners in the IRA have bombed public places so you can't even say it's an Islam thing.


From the same article you linked: "Five days after the blast the IRA issued a statement in which it claimed responsibility, but regretted causing injury to civilians." Islamic extremists don't care, and are glad to kill civilians.

You bring up the past alot Sarvis to try to criticize what others did before. Let's take the Crusades for example. Nowadays some view them as extremely negative, using modern-day morals as their sword. Had you been living back then, would you have criticized them too? Right now, Kiryan, Corth and I are criticizing what Islamic extremists are doing. Are you and Kindi being apologists for their acts of terror? Are you comparing some macho hick saying 'nuke em!' to a suicide bomber bombing?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:49 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:There have been 9 deaths due to abortion clinic attacks worldwide. 9. Contemporary Islamic extremist attacks are at over 3,000.


Well as long as you limit it to one specific kind of target sure. Then again, there's the whole IRA bombings and I'm sure if I cared enough I could find other examples of Christians killing people over ideological differences, or at least for having the wrong color skin.

Sarvis wrote:We all have the same drives and emotions.


Disagree here. Same emotions yes, but not the same way to demonstrate them. And as far as drives go, no.


Bullshit. You need food, water, shelter (I'll extend that to safety and security) and sex. That's all that drives anyone really.

Your average Iraqi just wants to go to work every day, eat dinner at night and relax with his family. You are NOT special somehow.

I wasn't born here. :) But yes, I am very different, psychologically, socially, and culturally from them.


No, you aren't.


Here's a post from an English Teacher in Basra, from BBC's "Iraqi Daily Lives"

I went to the doctor earlier at 1400 to get my wrist seen.

It didn't seem too bad, but I hurt it when I fell playing football yesterday evening and I couldn't move it for a while.


The doctor told me the wrist would heal by itself, and gave me some painkillers. It feels a lot better now.

There were five other people ahead of me in the queue for the doctor.

I only waited 30 minutes, but if I had not been able to go to the doctor until now, I would have waited for two hours.

Most people coming to see the doctor come in from a large area, so they don't arrive until after 1600, so it gets very busy.

I'm lucky - because I live so close, I got there earlier.

This evening I'm going to the barbers for a haircut, then I'll spend some time with a friend.


Wow. Played football, hurt his wrist and went to a doctor.

BARBARIAN!

Get off your high horse Adriorn.


Muslims invaded Spain in 711. They then tried expanding northward and eastward. Before that they had kept mostly to their own region. If you wanna play the 'You started it first game', they did.


Ok fine, whatever. That really wasn't the point... the point is that you're blaming them for being "Barbaric" for doing the same things Christians have done and some would love to do again.

kiryan wrote:Also, the crusades were how long ago? This is your favorite counter to Christian's aren't violent anymore. So does that mean since your great great grand father was a pedophile, you are too?


That too.


Pretty bad example considering pedophiles would be likely to molest their children, which in turn screws up the childrens' sexuality and makes it much more likely that they, too, will molest their children.

Remember, God told Bush to invade Iraq and millions of Christians applauded. You haven't changed as much as you'd like to believe.


From the same article you linked: "Five days after the blast the IRA issued a statement in which it claimed responsibility, but regretted causing injury to civilians." Islamic extremists don't care, and are glad to kill civilians.


We both know better. We both know that they planted a bomb in City Center fully expecting civilians to die. We both know they just have a better PR department.

You bring up the past alot Sarvis to try to criticize what others did before. Let's take the Crusades for example. Nowadays some view them as extremely negative, using modern-day morals as their sword. Had you been living back then, would you have criticized them too? Right now, Kiryan, Corth and I are criticizing what Islamic extremists are doing. Are you and Kindi being apologists for their acts of terror? Are you comparing some macho hick saying 'nuke em!' to a suicide bomber bombing?


Of course I would have supported the Crusades. I would have lived in a similar environment to what the Iraqi people are living in now. Everyone around me would have expected me to support it. There's a chance I'd have been burned at the stake or stoned to death for questioning the Word of God.

If we're more civilized now, it's because we're allowed to question "God" these days.

And like I said, of course we don't actually bomb and kill a lot of people. We aren't dirt poor, starving and living in a constant war zone. WE have shit to live for. That's why Kiryan threatens to take up arms against the government, but when cornered admits he could never risk himself because he needs to support his family.

We aren't that much more civilized, we just have more to live for. We all play football, hurt our wrists, and see a doctor to get it fixed.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:19 pm

lol, ridiculous. you never cease to amaze me. Because there is a teacher playing football in iraq, theres no barbarism there. I suppose because a student goes on a date in Iran, Iran is not barbaric despite its justice handed out on the end of a dozen blunt stones.

Please show me evidence that Bush invaded Iraq because God told him to.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Disoputlip » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:25 pm

The most racist comment I have yet to hear is that the bomber only became like that because he was from England. If he had stayed more in Sweden he would not have become like that.

I also heard an interview today where the one they interviewed stated that we also should think about the bombers family, because they took some guilt, even though they where not involved.

But you must understand that the debate level in sweden is extremly closed. So the few radicals are usually very radical, and won't be shown in television. whereas the broad population are more sad than angry.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:39 pm

kiryan wrote:lol, ridiculous. you never cease to amaze me. Because there is a teacher playing football in iraq, theres no barbarism there.


Not at all what I said.

Please show me evidence that Bush invaded Iraq because God told him to.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... over_x.htm

"Bush believes he was called by God to lead the nation at this time, says Commerce Secretary Don Evans, a close friend who talks with Bush every day. "

I swear he said it in a speech somewhere too, but can't find it now...

Besides Kiryan, you yourself have claimed God speaks to you. Why would he speak to you and not to the leader of the free world?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:11 pm

Image

Differences between societies in graphical illustration.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Disoputlip » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:16 pm

All countries that have death penalty are barbaric, but I am pretty sure Sweden would be the last country in the world to get it, no matter if their opponents had it.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:20 pm

you want to see christians being barbaric, look to the democratic republic of the congo. 90% christian, rape and pillage across the entire country and their neighbors. it's an education and economics issue, not a religion issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic ... o#Religion
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:21 pm

Disoputlip wrote:All countries that have death penalty are barbaric, but I am pretty sure Sweden would be the last country in the world to get it, no matter if their opponents had it.

To me, it would appear that there is a difference between triple chemical injection death penalty for murderers and live woman stoning for adultery that could be considered 'small,' to some people...

Still, it seems to be a worthwhile notation.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:22 pm

Kindi wrote:you want to see christians being barbaric, look to the democratic republic of the congo. 90% christian, rape and pillage across the entire country and their neighbors. it's an education and economics issue, not a religion issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_i ... _the_Congo

It is in the Congo. I don't see that you've made the case that this applies outside of it.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Pril » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:23 pm

kiryan wrote:Pril the problem with your disagreement is causality. You can't sit up there on the pulpit and preach death to the jews and then say well the 1% of my congregation that went out and committed violence against jews is a different culture. I'm sure you know lots of muslims who are not violent and are as peaceful or more so than the average christian, but it is undeniable that there is a large group of muslim extremists across the entire world blowing shit up. It is undeniable that every time someone prints a picture of muhhamed, there are riots across the globe and several clerics issue fatwa's calling for their deaths. While there may actually be this separation of barbaric and non barbaric muslims, the lines are very blurry imo because of the numbers and scope. Also, look at muslim's refusal to condemn the actions en masse. If Muslims want to establish themselves as a legitimate, peaceful religion, EVERY such cleric and muslim believer needs to come out and condemn these actions. The failure to do so legitimizes the terrorism conducted in the name of Islam. The contributions to the charities tacitly approves of these terrorist actions. If I was donating to the KKK, people would stop associating with me. If you donate to Hezbollah, how many muslims would turn their back on you?


I disagree with you saying that most Muslim congregations preach violence. Some do and some don't. However you do make a good point in that those that don't really need to either speak out against it or be seen as condoning it.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And Sarvis if you think that all people are the same you're very wrong. Having come to this country from Russia I can tell you that people are not the same anywhere you go. Talk to any immigrant or anyone who has traveled more than 200 miles outside of their home town. People are made up by their experiences and cultures. Every culture has their own cultural belief system. Some of those belief systems are more barbaric than others...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101024/ap_ ... amputation
http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disoputlip wrote:All countries that have death penalty are barbaric, but I am pretty sure Sweden would be the last country in the world to get it, no matter if their opponents had it.


I don't know if I fully agree or not with this. On one hand i truly feel that it is wrong to take another persons life no matter what. On the other hand (and yes very capitalist of me) will a person who has killed numerous people really reform in prison? Or for example if someone gets a prison sentance for life without parole is it worth the tax dollars to keep them alive in prison?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:23 pm

I have no doubt God speaks with Bush. What is suspect is your claim that God told Bush to invade Iraq.

/agree Diso, its a relative thing. The death penalty is barbaric no matter what the exceution method is.

However, please tell me that you can see a difference between degrees of barbarism between stoning and lethal injection.

I think we should buy Sarvis a ticket to see, first hand, a real life Iranian stoning and then an execution in a US prison.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:24 pm

Does not a catholic priest in the US military preach violence? He's certainly not telling them to not shoot.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Pril » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:25 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kindi wrote:you want to see christians being barbaric, look to the democratic republic of the congo. 90% christian, rape and pillage across the entire country and their neighbors. it's an education and economics issue, not a religion issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_i ... _the_Congo

It is in the Congo. I don't see that you've made the case that this applies outside of it.


I have to agree with Tef as much as this saddens me. You can go somewhere and convert anyone you want to but their culture won't change until generations pass.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:45 am

kiryan wrote:I have no doubt God speaks with Bush. What is suspect is your claim that God told Bush to invade Iraq.

/agree Diso, its a relative thing. The death penalty is barbaric no matter what the exceution method is.

However, please tell me that you can see a difference between degrees of barbarism between stoning and lethal injection.

I think we should buy Sarvis a ticket to see, first hand, a real life Iranian stoning and then an execution in a US prison.



That's just it Kiryan, the popularity of things like the Sasw movies show that many Americans would WANT to watch that. I am not among them.

Short post, replying from phone...
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Pril » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:21 am

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:I have no doubt God speaks with Bush. What is suspect is your claim that God told Bush to invade Iraq.

/agree Diso, its a relative thing. The death penalty is barbaric no matter what the exceution method is.

However, please tell me that you can see a difference between degrees of barbarism between stoning and lethal injection.

I think we should buy Sarvis a ticket to see, first hand, a real life Iranian stoning and then an execution in a US prison.



That's just it Kiryan, the popularity of things like the Sasw movies show that many Americans would WANT to watch that. I am not among them.

Short post, replying from phone...



People also watched Planet of the Apes, clearly we want to live on a planet ruled by apes. Come on Sarvis that's just weak even for you.
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Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:53 am

Sarvis wrote:Ok fine, whatever. That really wasn't the point... the point is that you're blaming them for being "Barbaric" for doing the same things Christians have done and some would love to do again.


I don't think you're seeing it Sarvis. You keep going back to the past, instead of actually analyzing the present. Stop comparing it to something done 1000 years ago as a way to DEFEND the actions of a group TODAY. "Oh but they're poor and starving and and"...hey, so are thousands in the Philippines, the Caribbean, Central America, South America. I don't see them blowing up planes into buildings or blowing themselves up in buses. I don't see them STONING WOMEN. I see extreme violence in certain countries, Mexico for instance, but it has nothing on Islamic extremism.

You brought up ONE example of some guy in the Middle East. Yay. I'm sure there are thousands like him, normal people living in a desert. Humble farmers, workers, etc. Good people living in horrible situations. Yet I also KNOW there are thousands of insane, radical loons following some terrorist pseudo-religious cult. Thousands, or more. The humble farmer might be somewhat the same as everyone else in the world, sure, just with a different culture. Good, normal Muslims, living in a culture/society/psychology totally different from ours. But Adbul the suicide bomber ain't. He's a barbaric anti-human.

Let's bring up one more example for you, see if it helps you out. The Aymara tribe in South America, or most any other tribe in South America. Peaceful guys, humble simple life (and most are Catholic btw). You can go down there, live in the jungle with many of them, and all is good. Normal people, different culture and society, even different religions, some pagan. Many of them live in some degree of poverty, especially in certain countries. Many have been tormented by years of guerrilla violence and oppression. Many of these tribes might be "UNCIVILIZED", but they are definitely not BARBARIC. They might walk around nude, and hunt frogs with sticks, but they are not BARBARIC. They want their rights, wish to live in peace, etc. They don't bomb stuff, they don't terrorize.

You actually believe everyone is culturally, socially and psychologically the same? That's basically what you said responding to my posts. We're all culturally equal, psychologically equal? That's just nuts. I think there are those who are civilized, there are those who are "uncivilized", and then there are the barbarian savages. I think you need to travel a bit chief, go to some 2nd or 2rd world countries and see the world more. Every country in the world has its bad seeds, its rapists and murderers. But 95% of them sure don't have the 911 crowd.


P.S.
Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Had you been living back then, would you have criticized them too? Right now, Kiryan, Corth and I are criticizing what Islamic extremists are doing. Are you and Kindi being apologists for their acts of terror? Are you comparing some macho hick saying 'nuke em!' to a suicide bomber bombing?


You answered the first question. You didn't answer the last two. They are important.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:13 am

Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:I have no doubt God speaks with Bush. What is suspect is your claim that God told Bush to invade Iraq.

/agree Diso, its a relative thing. The death penalty is barbaric no matter what the exceution method is.

However, please tell me that you can see a difference between degrees of barbarism between stoning and lethal injection.

I think we should buy Sarvis a ticket to see, first hand, a real life Iranian stoning and then an execution in a US prison.



That's just it Kiryan, the popularity of things like the Sasw movies show that many Americans would WANT to watch that. I am not among them.

Short post, replying from phone...



People also watched Planet of the Apes, clearly we want to live on a planet ruled by apes. Come on Sarvis that's just weak even for you.


Oh fuck it, I don't care. You're right. Brown people are just plain inferior to white people. Or Iraqi people are just inferior to Americans. Or People X are incredibly different from People Y.

Not as if we're all animals trying to find food, shelter and sex or anything.

:roll:
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:16 pm

I think the point is that one is noticeably more violent than the other right now.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:38 pm

Right sarvis this has to do with race and skin color because all conservatives are racist.

So you're trying to tell me because DRC is supposedly 90% christian, roving bands of christians are out there gang raping entire villages? Are you fuking crazy? There may be a Christian in the band, but I want to see a report that a so called christian band of people were out making bush wives.

Also, you need to understand that "Christianity" and "Catholicism" in the 3rd world does not always reflect the Christianity and Catholicism that we generally think of. Because missionaries train locals (minimally) to then spread the religion and make it their own (vs being seen more as a colonial power) a lot of traditional beliefs from other cultural/religious practices get incorporated initially before they purify their doctrines. In the article you posted, it talks about "christians" practicing sorcery to get good exam grades... that doesn't really work, but the guy honestly believes its ok... his home grown "pastor" may even agree. There are christians in Jamaica that practice voodoo... It takes time for these people to learn what it means to be Christian. They are practicing pseudo christianity. The article also talks about the number of people that identify exclusively with 1 religion as "limited". Probably in truth, that 90% christian is more like 5% christian as we would know them.

Thats not to say they aren't Christian or saved... but if you believe you can practice sorcery and christianity at the same time and thats ok with God then... you're not listening hard enough.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:51 pm

kiryan wrote:Right sarvis this has to do with race and skin color because all conservatives are racist.


Interesting that you didn't make it past that point in what I said.


So you're trying to tell me because DRC is supposedly 90% christian, roving bands of christians are out there gang raping entire villages? Are you fuking crazy? There may be a Christian in the band, but I want to see a report that a so called christian band of people were out making bush wives.

Also, you need to understand that "Christianity" and "Catholicism" in the 3rd world does not always reflect the Christianity and Catholicism that we generally think of. Because missionaries train locals (minimally) to then spread the religion and make it their own (vs being seen more as a colonial power) a lot of traditional beliefs from other cultural/religious practices get incorporated initially before they purify their doctrines. In the article you posted, it talks about "christians" practicing sorcery to get good exam grades... that doesn't really work, but the guy honestly believes its ok... his home grown "pastor" may even agree. There are christians in Jamaica that practice voodoo... It takes time for these people to learn what it means to be Christian. They are practicing pseudo christianity. The article also talks about the number of people that identify exclusively with 1 religion as "limited". Probably in truth, that 90% christian is more like 5% christian as we would know them.

Thats not to say they aren't Christian or saved... but if you believe you can practice sorcery and christianity at the same time and thats ok with God then... you're not listening hard enough.


Right, because sorcery, voodoo and prayer are all so very different from each other.

The best part of Christians is that you're always considered Christian until someone questions a motive or action, then suddenly it's "they aren't a real Christian."

Even though all you need to do to be Christian is believe in Jesus. Can't have a religion that says everything is ok if you Believe, and still condemn people based on their actions. Your religion says anything anyone does is ok if they believe in Jesus. That's it.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:15 pm

Sarvis wrote:Your religion says anything anyone does is ok if they believe in Jesus. That's it.


This is a completely erroneous and untrue statement. We can start with something as basic as the 10 Commandments for starters, the Golden Rule after, etc. Read up well on Christianity before criticizing it. Believing in Jesus is just Step 1.

P.S. This conversation has nothing to do with Christians, it has to do with Islamic extremists and/or terrorism. You're changing the subject.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:45 pm

I didn't say they weren't christians, I said this is not what we generally mean when we talk about Christians in a conversation. Many of these beliefs are so incompatible with Christianity that most people would say they aren't Christian... despite that as far as I understand, there is only one way to disqualify you as a christian and that is the "unforgiveable sin", blasphemy of the holy spirit (to know God then deny him).

If you wanted to define a Christian it would probably be in terms of salvation although others might say its simply trying to follow Christ. The terms of salvation are generally pretty constant, accept jesus as your lord and savior, repent of your sins, baptism. Some sects of Christianity require others, some believe baptism is not necessary but "really good". There are a host of probably 40 other "really good" beliefs that are not strictly necessary for "salvation". The 10 commandments for example are rules to live by, things you need to repent and be forgiven for, not a list of things that disqualify you from being considered a Christian.

So a murderer can be a christian... a practicing homosexual can be a christian and I suppose even a voodoo doctor. However, would it be fair to say because you wrote and compiled "hello world" program in new language xyz that you are a xyz programmer? Pedantically I suppose, you meet the basic tenets, you wrote code and it compiled, but in casual conversation people are going to reject your claim and those who actually are xyz programmers will be the fiercest critics.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:21 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Your religion says anything anyone does is ok if they believe in Jesus. That's it.


This is a completely erroneous and untrue statement. We can start with something as basic as the 10 Commandments for starters, the Golden Rule after, etc. Read up well on Christianity before criticizing it. Believing in Jesus is just Step 1.


My understanding is that the rules in the old testament were thrown out because Jesus died for your sins, and everything is forgiven through belief in Jesus.

See, even Kiryan just said it... and HE talks to God directly!

"The 10 commandments for example are rules to live by, things you need to repent and be forgiven for, not a list of things that disqualify you from being considered a Christian."

Ok so sorry, there's a two step process:
1) Believe in a zombie
2) Feel bad for what you did wrong

P.S. This conversation has nothing to do with Christians, it has to do with Islamic extremists and/or terrorism. You're changing the subject.


It has to do with Religious Extremists.

Oh I forgot your religion (burning women at the stake) is better than "their" religion (stoning.)

Of course, considering Jesus himself was nearly stoned to death...


Kiryan: So if you want to assign a level of "skill" to it, then when do you become a Christian? Do you have to be a priest? Bishop? Pope?

It's an insane comparison. You're a Christian if you believe in Christ. That's what it means. You could be a bad Christian or an uneducated one, but that's not really what we're talking about is it? After all these people were educated by missionaries weren't they?

But this discussion really is off topic so let's stop...
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