Terrorist attack in Sweden

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Sarvis
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:58 am

So I was right. You're full of hot air. Of course you also imagine a violent end to me. Yep, you're so much more evolved than an Iraqi. :roll:
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:59 am

Sarvis wrote:So I was right. You're full of hot air. Of course you also imagine a violent end to me. Yep, you're so much more evolved than an Iraqi. :roll:

Wow, another load of unsupported, baseless bullshit. To make matters worse, your pathetic attempts to sidestep everything I said about personality traits, the variance between sexual orientations, differing human tendencies to types of socialization, and the millions of genetic differences that make up people, haven't gone unnoticed by anyone but you.

NEVERMIND the fact that your only defense is to bring up five incredibly BROAD _categorizations_ of human motivations WITHOUT even showing how those motivations are the same across clearly different and differently motivated individuals.

Your hot air is so expansive, it must be your own blowback that's hitting you. "But Teflor, humans are all bipeds, so we are definitely the same." "But Teflor, humans all try to minimize pain and maximize pleasure." Eat a dick.

Sarvis wrote:We are all the same.

THE GALLERY

Image <- Not even a religious nut!
According to Sarvis, he has the exact same motivations as this guy.
Image
And, Sarvis admits to being exactly the same as this guy.
Image
Another person Sarvis is exactly the same as.
Image
Yes, Sarvis, I'm starting to see it, you must be exactly alike.
Image
Exactly the Same as Sarvis, by his own Admission, although possibly with less (more?) hair.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:02 pm

Image
Another dude Sarvis insists he is just exactly the same as.
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If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:14 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:although possibly with less (more?) hair.



More hair, actually. Do you have an actual point here? Do any of those guys not need to eat, perhaps? For that matter why are you so angry? I mean really, "eat a dick?" Are you two? You still haven't specified any differing genetic need that is making them act "differently," by the way. Do they not want sex? Here's a hint: It's theorized that one of the big motivations for suicide bombing is the reward of 72 virgins in heaven, which is very important in a society where harems are allowed because there are not enough women available for young men.


But who cares. Kindi asked a very interesting question which you and Adriorn have simply ignored several times. I'd like to see your answer.


Kindi wrote:what's your proposed solution to muslim extremism?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:22 pm

Why change arguments when we have you on the ropes? Your silly claim that we're all exactly the same is undeniably false. Mao killed 60 million chinese people to make life better for the Chinese. You would do the same thing? Hitler killed 6 million jews to make the world a better place? You would do the same thing?

Admit that culture/religion influences individual behavior and it can be in a peaceful or barbaric direction.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:29 pm

kiryan wrote:Why change arguments when we have you on the ropes? Your silly claim that we're all exactly the same is undeniably false. Mao killed 60 million chinese people to make life better for the Chinese. You would do the same thing? Hitler killed 6 million jews to make the world a better place? You would do the same thing?

Admit that culture/religion influences individual behavior and it can be in a peaceful or barbaric direction.


Hitler was Christian.

How, exactly, are you different?

Hell, you've got Teflor sitting there practically saying he is genetically superior to muslims.

Was Saddam terribly different when he was committing genocide on the Marsh Arabs?

Where is the difference there? Christian -> Genocide. Muslim -> Genocide

And seriously, "on the ropes?" I'll be "on the ropes" when Teflor actually provides some evidence instead of pictures of people along with an emotional appeal. He has yet to state anything that is actually different other than the behavior. I'm talking about motivation, not result. We can't view the result in our own culture until it happens to us.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:43 pm

its real simple.

All people are the same so all differences must be explaiend by:

A) FSM
B) Culture and Religion
C) environment
D) genetics

Lets drop A and D. That leaves B or C.

You cite C as the exclusive factor, however you admit that a large group of pacifists in Palestinian circumstances would not resort to suicide bombing.

Please explain how all people are the same with the same motivations and reactions to their environment, but pacifists wouldn't turn into sucide bombers. You can't. Its their culture and religion that keep them from becoming suicide bombers. Not their economic wealth, not their genetic makeup and not the flying spaghetti monster.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:06 pm

kiryan wrote:its real simple.

All people are the same so all differences must be explaiend by:

A) FSM
B) Culture and Religion
C) environment
D) genetics

Lets drop A and D. That leaves B or C.

You cite C as the exclusive factor, however you admit that a large group of pacifists in Palestinian circumstances would not resort to suicide bombing.

Please explain how all people are the same with the same motivations and reactions to their environment, but pacifists wouldn't turn into sucide bombers. You can't. Its their culture and religion that keep them from becoming suicide bombers. Not their economic wealth, not their genetic makeup and not the flying spaghetti monster.


You realize that FSM and Religion are the same thing, right?

But I digress...

A) I never said pacifists would not become suicide bombers, I said a GROUP of them wouldn't because the motivation to be part of and serve a community is strong and they would have their own community within the Muslim one.

Look at it this way, do you know any 2nd or 3rd generation asians? Do they pretty much act like Americans? The ones I've met do except for some minor traditions they've maintained. But what if you go to Chinatown? Do they act like Americans or do they act like Chinese?

------------------------------------------

Now, is "Culture" having an effect here? Well yes, of course it is. But what is culture except the way in which a group identifies itself and maintains cohesiveness?

So here's the important part: The individuals within the Culture want safety and security. Foreigners bomb your country into the stone age, then install a dictator who uses WMD on his own people and attempts genocide against another subculture. This builds anger, and the individuals within the Culture feed off each other's anger. Thus the individuals make the Culture more violent, which feeds back into the individuals who start seeking ways to fight back.

This doesn't mean the culture or religion itself is violent, it means that it can become violent.

So can ours, that has been proven time and again.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:29 pm

like that one time we started that war
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:01 pm

ahh I finally understand your delusion.

Christians today are the same as Christians 1000 years ago. The esteemed and learned persian culture of 3000 years ago is the same as the back assward, theocracy practiced in Iran today.

I guess that pretty much puts any hope of intelligent discussion with you squarely in the bit bucket.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Pril » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:14 pm

kiryan wrote:I guess that pretty much puts any hope of intelligent discussion with you squarely in the bit bucket.



Mike,

That it took you THIS long to come to this conclusion makes me sad. Notice how I dropped out back on page one.

Mike
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:39 pm

kiryan wrote:ahh I finally understand your delusion.

Christians today are the same as Christians 1000 years ago.


You just cited HITLER, who was a Christian. What about the Mafia, always portrayed as deeply religious. What about the KKK, a part of our culture to this day.

But please, keep ignoring everything I said and bringing it back to "but... but... we've changed!" I didn't even mention 1000 years ago. We start wars. We started the Iraq war.

Here's the telling part: We started it because we were attacked. You do realize that we have been attacking them for decades right? You get it? We made the same basic response: Violence. You can scream that we don't target civilians all you want, the fact is we hit civilian targets all the time. It's little comfort when it's an accident, the children in the schoolhouse are still dead and the fathers still want revenge and they will do the same thing we did: attack.

WHERE IS THE DIFFERENCE?

Hell, how many civilians did we kill in Japan in WWII? We wiped out entire cities. But they're more barbaric because they bombed a nightclub? Are you insane?

I guess that pretty much puts any hope of intelligent discussion with you squarely in the bit bucket.



The funny thing is I've been thinking this entire time that it was the first time a discussion with you was worthwhile. You actually seemed someone civil and wanting to discuss, rather than just attack and hurl insults. You even took a step back from Teflor's idiocy when you realized what he was saying.

That ship has clearly sailed. You just ignored what I said in favor of yet again trying to claim that Christians are different.

What about the Christians burning down mosques and beating up anyone brown? YOUR culture. YOU. ARE. NOT. DIFFERENT.


Pril: Bullshit. You bowed out because you have nothing to contribute and no thoughts of your own. All you bring to any table is a quick accusation of trolling and a veiled insult. Have you read anything, or did you just see me post and decide I must be wrong?

But please, feel free to tell me how people are different.

We get bombed, we go to war against the people who bombed us. Or the people who look like the people who bombed us. Or both.

They get bombed, they go to war against the people who bombed them. Or the people who look like the people who bombed them. Or both.

The only difference is tactics, and if they had the military strength to just overrun us the normal way they probably would.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:46 pm

--What about the KKK, a part of our culture to this day.

Do you even read what you write? KKK is part of our culture today? Are you nucking futs?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:33 am

Sarvis wrote:Kindi asked a very interesting question which you and Adriorn have simply ignored several times. I'd like to see your answer.


Really?

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:I keep going back to this sentence. It's disturbed me since I first read it. It keeps reading: "They stone women to death, but hey, we're all the same, no biggie". I hope I'm reading too much into it, but in my mind, it really sounds creepy. I think if they want the world to treat them as civilized, to try making some kind of peace with them, that is one of the things they need to immediately remove from their "culture", among others...to somewhat answer Kindi's question. The thing is, I really don't think they will.


To which I received the following sarcastic replies with no discussion:

Kindi wrote:i think the main difference, sarvis, is that we're the Good Guys and they're the Bad Guys. in a time of war, you shouldn't try to humanize the Bad Guys


Sarvis wrote:Oh right, I forgot. They are the Great Satan!


So I stopped reading this thread until today. I think Kiryan just summed up part of the problem quite well.

BTW, out of curiosity, how many foreign countries have Sarvis and Kindi traveled to? And which ones, if any? Hopefully no one lies.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:52 am

I don't see that a single person here has bought your bullshit, Sarvis.

You've presented no evidence. You claim that all people are the same, yet the world is not homogeneous.

You're so full of shit it's coming out of your ears. You'll notice that all comments about intelligent discussion being impossible have been directed at you. As much as you would like to think that it's about me, you're the only one talking about me.

So yes, eat a dick. If you are exactly the same as Stalin, Pol Pot, the Unabomber, and assorted pedophiles as you claim that you are, then I have only one more thing to say to you: go fuck yourself.

Image
EXACTLY like Sarvis, according to Sarvis.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:00 am

Let's try another tact to get through to Sarvis:

According to Sarvis, these two are exactly the same.
Imageyou know what, I can't even allow these images to be side by sideImage<f this guy

Congratulations, Sarvis, you really nailed this one. This argument is over. If you want to discuss solutions to terrorism, you will have to accept that people are not the same. I know this damages your fragile delusion that all people are equal all the time, but if that were true, than humanity would just be part of the terrain on earth and really not worth talking about.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:42 pm

i think the argument is pretty silly. are we all exactly the same? no. are we all completely and totally different? no. 99.9% genetic similarity, all born on the same planet, all DNA/RNA/carbon based life, vast majority with brain structures that allow breathing, learning, etc. yes, some ppl are born without brains, but they aren't really 'alive', are they? they certainly aren't part of this discussion. and yes some ppl regrettably have terrible psychoses which cause them to act strangely or have strange ideas. but we're "the same enough" to have extremely similar terminal values, like happiness and accomplishment. if that weren't so, we could never cooperate to form civilization. any community larger than 100 ppl will have to have a somewhat cohesive goal structure based on mutual understanding and similarity or it will fall apart.

really, both positions aren't that dissimilar from each other, just the hyperbolic language and name calling is getting in the way of understanding. should tone down the personal attacks and try to find common ground. i liked kiryan's breakdown of potential differences, and think stuff like that should show up more often.

pretty plz stop with the name calling and hating :(
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:21 pm

kiryan wrote:--What about the KKK, a part of our culture to this day.

Do you even read what you write? KKK is part of our culture today? Are you nucking futs?


What, do you think they don't exist? Or do they magically spring up out of thin air? They are people the grow up in our culture, listen to our religious values, and believe that they are a superior race and that people of other races should die.

Oh and this is too fucking funny:

Wikipedia wrote:Ex-Grand Wizard David Duke has claimed that thousands of Tea Party movement activists have urged him to run for president in 2012 [133] and he is seriously considering entering the Republican Party primaries.[134]


So yeah, a part of our culture. Potential leadership even!


And seriously, you ignored the entire post and point of it to focus one thing that makes you uncomfortable and you were wrong about anyway.

What about the rest Kiryan? What about bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima a few decades ago? Has our culture evolved significantly since then? Most Christians and Conservatives would probably say it's devolved, that we have become more Godless right? Are we more Godless and Less Violent then? Because I'd still call that a win...
Last edited by Sarvis on Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:23 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:I don't see that a single person here has bought your bullshit, Sarvis.

You've presented no evidence. You claim that all people are the same, yet the world is not homogeneous.

You're so full of shit it's coming out of your ears. You'll notice that all comments about intelligent discussion being impossible have been directed at you. As much as you would like to think that it's about me, you're the only one talking about me.

So yes, eat a dick. If you are exactly the same as Stalin, Pol Pot, the Unabomber, and assorted pedophiles as you claim that you are, then I have only one more thing to say to you: go fuck yourself.

Image
EXACTLY like Sarvis, according to Sarvis.



Again, Teflor, what genetic difference makes brown people inferior to us? What genetic difference makes them not want Mazlow's Heirarchy of Needs? What genetic difference makes them all suicide bombers?

More importantly, what genetic difference makes Americans never resort to violence when threatened?

Go ahead an post more pictures, because they don't address the issues. You are posting behaviors, not the underlying causes of those behaviors.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:26 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Congratulations, Sarvis, you really nailed this one. This argument is over. If you want to discuss solutions to terrorism, you will have to accept that people are not the same. I know this damages your fragile delusion that all people are equal all the time, but if that were true, than humanity would just be part of the terrain on earth and really not worth talking about.



What solutions? You've posted none. In fact, your stance that they are just genetically suicide bombers leaves no solution. You're absurdist thoughts lead us to a no-win scenario anyway so it is completely valueless. Can't even change the culture to fix things!
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:33 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Kindi asked a very interesting question which you and Adriorn have simply ignored several times. I'd like to see your answer.


Really?

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:I keep going back to this sentence. It's disturbed me since I first read it. It keeps reading: "They stone women to death, but hey, we're all the same, no biggie". I hope I'm reading too much into it, but in my mind, it really sounds creepy. I think if they want the world to treat them as civilized, to try making some kind of peace with them, that is one of the things they need to immediately remove from their "culture", among others...to somewhat answer Kindi's question. The thing is, I really don't think they will.




Oh right, forgot you "somewhat" answered. I apologize.

To which I received the following sarcastic replies with no discussion:

Kindi wrote:i think the main difference, sarvis, is that we're the Good Guys and they're the Bad Guys. in a time of war, you shouldn't try to humanize the Bad Guys


Sarvis wrote:Oh right, I forgot. They are the Great Satan!



Umm... those responses weren't directed at that post or comment. They weren't even replies to you... but a side joke between Kindi and I. In fact, you skipped over our actual responses... though to be fair I was replying more to the paragraph in general than the one sentence. Kindi's reply was ignored, however:

Kindi wrote:just so we're clear, it's the fact that the women are stoned for committing such crimes as "being raped", right? NOT because "stoning is an indefensible form of execution" or "executing women is indefensible", but because "being raped should not be a crime"


Now, the real problem with your "solution" is that it isn't one. It's just waiting for them to magically decide to change their ways, which isn't going to happen. Kindi's question could even be roughly translated to "What can we do to motivate them to make changes such as not stoning their women to death?"

Telling or asking them to change won't do it. We're the enemy, they do not want to do what we ask them to... it will only strengthen their resolve to stick to their ways.


So I stopped reading this thread until today. I think Kiryan just summed up part of the problem quite well.

BTW, out of curiosity, how many foreign countries have Sarvis and Kindi traveled to? And which ones, if any? Hopefully no one lies.


Unfortunately just Canada... which doesn't count. :(
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:45 pm

Kindi wrote:i think the argument is pretty silly (agreed). are we all exactly the same? no. are we all completely and totally different? no. 99.9% genetic similarity, all born on the same planet, all DNA/RNA/carbon based life, vast majority with brain structures that allow breathing, learning, etc. yes, some ppl are born without brains, but they aren't really 'alive', are they? they certainly aren't part of this discussion. and yes some ppl regrettably have terrible psychoses which cause them to act strangely or have strange ideas. but we're "the same enough" to have extremely similar terminal values, like happiness and accomplishment. if that weren't so, we could never cooperate to form civilization.


The entire first part of that paragraph deals with Biology. No arguments there, pretty darn similar. As for "terminal values like happiness", some people get happy seeing a woman fall down and get hurt, some people get happy watching a child smile, some people get happy watching a bunch of men throw balls. Happiness, like most everything else we've talked about, is extremely subjective.

But you never mention culture, traditions, beliefs, religions, etc. The other important part of humanity. Your last sentence, in a way, disproves what you've just argued about: "to form civilization". Yes, many different areas of the world HAVE formed civilizations. Some have endured, some have faded away. Some parts of the world remained civilized, others don't. Sarvis keeps mentioning brown people. This has nothing to do with their race or color either. There are millions of good "brown" people living in other parts of the world, peacefully, civilly, productively. Same with blacks, Asians, etc. etc. If people adopt babies from many of those countries, chances are they will grow to be fairly normal, civilized, intelligent, humble (or arrogant) people. It's not only because they are not living in poverty or poor conditions, since there are many people living in poverty or poor conditions who ARE fairly normal, civilized, intelligent, humble people...but because they have been taken away from a self-destructive culture, a barbaric society, or an in/antihuman environment.

Sarvis wrote:Oh right, forgot you "somewhat" answered. I apologize.


More sarcasm. And I did respond to her question, I didn't "ignore it several times" like you said. If you didn't like my response, not my problem.

Sarvis wrote:Now, the real problem with your "solution" is that it isn't one.


Correct, that was even the last line of my post.

Sarvis wrote:Now, the real problem with your "solution" is that it isn't one. It's just waiting for them to magically decide to change their ways, which isn't going to happen...Telling or asking them to change won't do it. We're the enemy, they do not want to do what we ask them to... it will only strengthen their resolve to stick to their ways.


And now you realize why so many people criticize and laugh at the failure that is the United Nations. You just explained it yourself :)

Back to the question: when people bombed abortion clinics, Christians came out of the woodwork to criticize what they did. When many high-ranking priests wanted to maintain the indians in the Americas as slaves, many priests went to Rome to complain and criticize the thought of doing so, and indian slavery was abolished. Even now, with the whole pedo priest debacle, the outcry from within Catholics has been high (although you prolly won't see it in the media). When miners are made to work in sub-human conditions, they go on strike. When people have seen the injustices in their own country, many have written books to criticize the issues, and many have died doing so.

But the outcry from within the Muslim community, both internally and internationally, has been minimal. You have SOME guys, SOME women, who have complained, criticized, but it is minimal. Not as visible or common, nor widespread, as it should be. Which is one of the reasons why many have cynically questioned the reasons behind the lack of initiative.

Furthermore, as per your beliefs that everyone is the same, all you have to look at is the differences in children as a parent. Regardless of how much one may try to raise children the same, treat them all the same, have them surrounded by the same circumstances and environment, they will still have some fairly noticeable differences. You might have one child who, when reprimanded by his siblings and parents, will be humbled and apologize sincerely. His sister, when reprimanded by her siblings and parents, might feel angered by everyone reprimanding her and begin to show anger and arrogance, and never admit she was wrong, slowly developing a bitterness towards authority.

...and that's just within one small micro-group, in one simplistic example.

Sarvis wrote:Unfortunately just Canada... which doesn't count. :(


Ironically, Kindi never answered my question directed at her too about this. But now, Sarvis, try to see it from the other person's point of view. You've only been to Canada, never been to a 2nd or 3rd world country, etc. Wouldn't someone think that perhaps you might have an ignorant or overly-idealistic view of the world, seeing as how you have never actually seen the people or cultures of other places? Perhaps once you experienced living for a short while in some Caribbean island, Central American country, African nation (panic), or studied extensively their history and culture, your view that everyone is basically the same would be totally different. Perhaps you might think, "hey the folks over at Guatemala aren't too different from me, but fuck "insert country here", most of those people are barbaric..."
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:09 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Kindi wrote:i think the argument is pretty silly (agreed). are we all exactly the same? no. are we all completely and totally different? no. 99.9% genetic similarity, all born on the same planet, all DNA/RNA/carbon based life, vast majority with brain structures that allow breathing, learning, etc. yes, some ppl are born without brains, but they aren't really 'alive', are they? they certainly aren't part of this discussion. and yes some ppl regrettably have terrible psychoses which cause them to act strangely or have strange ideas. but we're "the same enough" to have extremely similar terminal values, like happiness and accomplishment. if that weren't so, we could never cooperate to form civilization.


The entire first part of that paragraph deals with Biology. No arguments there, pretty darn similar. As for "terminal values like happiness", some people get happy seeing a woman fall down and get hurt, some people get happy watching a child smile, some people get happy watching a bunch of men throw balls. Happiness, like most everything else we've talked about, is extremely subjective.


But they all still want to be happy. That is the sameness we're talking about. On the macro-level people are even more similar. I'm sure there are both Muslims and Christians who laugh at someone falling down the stairs. We even made a TV show out of it... but now Youtube pretty much covers taht stuff.

But you never mention culture, traditions, beliefs, religions, etc. The other important part of humanity. Your last sentence, in a way, disproves what you've just argued about: "to form civilization". Yes, many different areas of the world HAVE formed civilizations. Some have endured, some have faded away. Some parts of the world remained civilized, others don't. Sarvis keeps mentioning brown people. This has nothing to do with their race or color either. There are millions of good "brown" people living in other parts of the world, peacefully, civilly, productively. Same with blacks, Asians, etc. etc. If people adopt babies from many of those countries, chances are they will grow to be fairly normal, civilized, intelligent, humble (or arrogant) people. It's not only because they are not living in poverty or poor conditions, since there are many people living in poverty or poor conditions who ARE fairly normal, civilized, intelligent, humble people...but because they have been taken away from a self-destructive culture, a barbaric society, or an in/antihuman environment.


There are plenty of Christians resorting to violence as well. I think what Kindi and I are saying is that the reason Muslims are violent is not simply their culture. There are a lot of things affecting it, from generations of outside influence to their internal divisions about religion. I think I explained this pretty well a couple posts ago, but Kiryan just dismissed it all to focus on some minor sentence:

Now, is "Culture" having an effect here? Well yes, of course it is. But what is culture except the way in which a group identifies itself and maintains cohesiveness?

So here's the important part: The individuals within the Culture want safety and security. Foreigners bomb your country into the stone age, then install a dictator who uses WMD on his own people and attempts genocide against another subculture. This builds anger, and the individuals within the Culture feed off each other's anger. Thus the individuals make the Culture more violent, which feeds back into the individuals who start seeking ways to fight back.

This doesn't mean the culture or religion itself is violent, it means that it can become violent.

So can ours, that has been proven time and again.





Sarvis wrote:Oh right, forgot you "somewhat" answered. I apologize.


More sarcasm. And I did respond to her question, I didn't "ignore it several times" like you said. If you didn't like my response, not my problem.


He was asking what your solution was, and you even said yourself that your response wasn't a solution.. so how exactly did you answer the question?

But that really wasn't meant to come off as sarcastic as it did. Well, except for the "somewhat" part. We'd still like to see your solution though. That was my point in asking you again.



Back to the question: when people bombed abortion clinics, Christians came out of the woodwork to criticize what they did. When many high-ranking priests wanted to maintain the indians in the Americas as slaves, many priests went to Rome to complain and criticize the thought of doing so, and indian slavery was abolished. Even now, with the whole pedo priest debacle, the outcry from within Catholics has been high (although you prolly won't see it in the media). When miners are made to work in sub-human conditions, they go on strike. When people have seen the injustices in their own country, many have written books to criticize the issues, and many have died doing so.


So the outcry could be high but we wouldn't see it? Is it possible the same thing is going on in the Muslim community? Also keep in mind that their religious leaders are fairly hardline and may punish people for speaking out against an action.

Like I said earlier, one of the strongest needs people have is to belong to a group. Few are going to risk being ostracized (or worse) to speak out against their peers.



Furthermore, as per your beliefs that everyone is the same, all you have to look at is the differences in children as a parent. Regardless of how much one may try to raise children the same, treat them all the same, have them surrounded by the same circumstances and environment, they will still have some fairly noticeable differences.


As much as you _try_ they can never actually have the same experience growing up. Even just having an older sibling changes things. Even if you actually do the exact same things as a parent (which is exceedingly rare considering most parents are a lot more easy-going with a second child) the younger sibling can go to the older and get advice, different perspectives, etc.



...and that's just within one small micro-group, in one simplistic example.

And just to quote a movie: "A Person is smart, People are dumb." On the macro-level humans are easier to predict and manipulate. A brother and sister may indeed be different, but if you go into a sports bar in America you can probably have a conversation about football with everyone in there.


Ironically, Kindi never answered my question directed at her too about this. But now, Sarvis, try to see it from the other person's point of view. You've only been to Canada, never been to a 2nd or 3rd world country, etc. Wouldn't someone think that perhaps you might have an ignorant or overly-idealistic view of the world, seeing as how you have never actually seen the people or cultures of other places? Perhaps once you experienced living for a short while in some Caribbean island, Central American country, African nation (panic), or studied extensively their history and culture, your view that everyone is basically the same would be totally different. Perhaps you might think, "hey the folks over at Guatemala aren't too different from me, but fuck "insert country here", most of those people are barbaric..."


Maybe. But I'm betting if you sat down and had conversations with them you'd talk about similar things. And remember, many Europeans think it's barbaric that we still have the death penalty. Even though it's just an attempt to control crime, which is an activity they engage in too... just in a different fashion.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:01 am

Sarvis wrote:In fact, your stance that they are just genetically suicide bombers leaves no solution. You're absurdist thoughts lead us to a no-win scenario anyway so it is completely valueless. Can't even change the culture to fix things!

That wasn't my stance, it was never stated as my stance, and your inability or unwillingness to realize these things is preventing intelligent conversation. You keep ignoring the fact that genetics was only one of many things I submitted as to why people are different. In fact, I've brought this up three times now, and you continue to ignore it.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:02 am

Sarvis wrote:Again, Teflor, what genetic difference makes brown people inferior to us? What genetic difference makes them not want Mazlow's Heirarchy of Needs? What genetic difference makes them all suicide bombers?

Good lord, you are too fucking retarded to talk to. See my above post. I am a brown person you fucking idiot.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:21 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Again, Teflor, what genetic difference makes brown people inferior to us? What genetic difference makes them not want Mazlow's Heirarchy of Needs? What genetic difference makes them all suicide bombers?

Good lord, you are too fucking retarded to talk to. See my above post. I am a brown person you fucking idiot.


You're the one implying that Arabs are violent because of genetics. I think. It's a little hard to tell since you never actually explained what you mean. You claim to have presented myriad reasons why people are different. Three times, in fact. I challenge you to quote yourself on that. It's possible I missed it, but all I've heard from you is the same generic non-specific crap you always pull. You claim I got your stance wrong, but if I did it's because you never actually stated it.

Please explain:
1) Why Arabic people are different and more prone to suicide bombing
2) What is your solution

Then maybe you can join the rest of us, who have moved on from the "people are the same" statement that so offends you.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:00 pm

Sarvis wrote:You're the one implying that Arabs are violent because of genetics. I think.

I'm not. Arabs on the whole are simply MORE violent as evidenced by their stoning and other punishments, as well as what they consider high crime, and their higher rates of murder across the board. I'm not implying that they ARE violent, but are simply more so than other societies, cultures, and races. Genetics is also not the only reason I am putting forth. I have already stated multiple other contributing factors and you've chosen to ignore them.

I certainly haven't made value judgments on what is "better." I am a colored person so I'm certainly not ragging on them because they are colored.

Discussion about a 'solution' is not possible while you continue to invent arguments I haven't made. Other people have "moved on" because they've given up on you.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:59 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote: I have already stated multiple other contributing factors and you've chosen to ignore them.


Like I said I may have missed it. Quote yourself.

We both know you dodged that request because you can't.

I certainly haven't made value judgments on what is "better." I am a colored person so I'm certainly not ragging on them because they are colored.


No, just because their genes are different. :roll:

Discussion about a 'solution' is not possible while you continue to invent arguments I haven't made. Other people have "moved on" because they've given up on you.


You keep believing that while you continue to argue one thing that I said 3 pages ago.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:52 pm

My responses continue only to your illogical posts. I'm not going to quote myself because it's in the previous posts.

If you're done, intellectual discussion can begin.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:45 am

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. The truth of these words is evidenced throughout human history, where the constant human struggle plays out in history and blood where one attempts to control and dominate another.

Terrorist attacks perpetrated by a specific cultural or racial group are motivated primarily by a sense of superiority - the one great race, the one correct answer, the one true faith - and are fueled by a culture that permits the use of violence to make a point, push others around, or dominate other human beings, particularly on the individual level.

The solution to ending terrorism by extremists that sully the reputations of muslims worldwide is to encourage the many different cultures and societies of the muslim world to practice a higher level of respect for human life, for the liberties of their people, and the rights that belong to individual human beings everywhere.

This solution, however, is not a magic bullet and cannot be implemented overnight. Therefore, this solution must be accompanied by other mitigation methods that increase security and detect, deter, and defeat terrorists plotting to try to disrupt society.

Human beings are problem solvers. The solution I have proposed is exactly what is being implemented by the powers that be today. While we may struggle with the specific details, we have been and continue to make steps and progress toward eliminating terrorism. As with anything else, there are potential shortcuts and other methods that can speed up implementation of the solution, however, there are severe risks that come with the potential rewards.

For example, establishing a strong democracy in the middle east was a severe gamble, that could potentially pay off large in the race to build up humanity in the middle east. Whether or not it was worth it remains to be seen, but I support the efforts of the international servicemen and women that are trying to make it a success - for us and for the people of Iraq.

No idea what's going on in Afghanistan. The place just sucks. Not sure why we're there, but I support the troops there as well. There is no solution that doesn't involve the military, the civil services, and private enterprise. They are all the weapons we have to bear against the enemy that will try to rob us of our freedom.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:09 pm

--There are plenty of Christians resorting to violence as well. I think what Kindi and I are saying is that the reason Muslims are violent is not simply their culture. There are a lot of things affecting it, from generations of outside influence to their internal divisions about religion. I think I explained this pretty well a couple posts ago, but Kiryan just dismissed it all to focus on some minor sentence:

--"generations of outside influence to their internal divisions about religion"

Isn't that culture / religion? Worldview/ideology?

here are some definitions:

a particular society at a particular time and place; "early Mayan civilization"

all the knowledge and values shared by a society

the attitudes and behavior that are characteristic of a particular social group or organization; "the developing drug culture"; "the reason that the agency is doomed to inaction has something to do with the FBI culture"

--I think what Kindi and I are saying is that the reason Muslims are violent is not simply their culture.

Finally, thats all I'm looking for. It may not "simply" be their culture/religion, but religion/culture can and in this case does play a part in having higher than average, extremist, violent results.

-- someone made a comment about Europe viewing the US as barbaric for having the death penalty. I agree, using that as the primary metric, the US is more barbaric than Europe for having the death penalty. I would probably agree that in general, the US is more "barbaric" than Europe for many of our independent, go it alone on your own type culture. Course we don't have the scope and scale that is the soccer hooligan.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:08 pm

kiryan wrote:--There are plenty of Christians resorting to violence as well. I think what Kindi and I are saying is that the reason Muslims are violent is not simply their culture. There are a lot of things affecting it, from generations of outside influence to their internal divisions about religion. I think I explained this pretty well a couple posts ago, but Kiryan just dismissed it all to focus on some minor sentence:

--"generations of outside influence to their internal divisions about religion"

Isn't that culture / religion? Worldview/ideology?


Having bombs dropped on them and genocidal dictators installed is part of their culture?

Or did you just mean the internal divisions? That is, I suppose.

Finally, thats all I'm looking for. It may not "simply" be their culture/religion, but religion/culture can and in this case does play a part in having higher than average, extremist, violent results.


Remember that Christians glorify martyrs as well. The Bible has been used to justify a LOT of violence when people want to be violent.

-- someone made a comment about Europe viewing the US as barbaric for having the death penalty. I agree, using that as the primary metric, the US is more barbaric than Europe for having the death penalty. I would probably agree that in general, the US is more "barbaric" than Europe for many of our independent, go it alone on your own type culture. Course we don't have the scope and scale that is the soccer hooligan.


Did you just switch from using -- to denote my comments to using -- to denote your comments in the same post? Seriously, quote blocks are not that hard to use.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:58 pm

looks like i did. quote blocks bleh, I'd rather type --

no, their response to having bombs dropped on them however is part of their culture. WHether its a distinct change or just amplifies.

yes, the bible has been used to justify lots of violence. Does that mean Pacifists who quote from the Bible are a barbaric and violent culture/religion?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:03 pm

http://washingtonexaminer.com/news/worl ... ish-forces

basically afghans are pedophiles. Is that culture or religion or just what anyone would do if they lived in the same circumstances cuz we're all the same.

to put the point more directly, are you capable of pedophilia under the right circumstances?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:26 pm

kiryan wrote:http://washingtonexaminer.com/news/world/2010/12/afghan-sex-practices-concern-us-british-forces

basically afghans are pedophiles. Is that culture or religion


Considering the whole Catholic priest pedophilia thing, maybe it's just a religious thing.

or just what anyone would do if they lived in the same circumstances cuz we're all the same.


Your point is resoundingly strong considering there has never been a similar setup in any other culture in history. *coughGreececough*

to put the point more directly, are you capable of pedophilia under the right circumstances?


More importantly, homosexuality is strictly forbidden in Islam yet it happens anyway. People need a sexual outlet, it is one of those base desires we all have in common. If no women are available men look for other sources. Prisoners rape other prisoners. Farmers rape their sheep. Ancient Greeks and Afghani's screw boys.

That's your biological effect.

Me? Well, you did read the last paragaph right?

It appears that this set of experiences becomes cyclical, affecting generations, and that this cycle that has existed long enough to affect the underpinnings of Afghan culture itself.


If I had grown up getting regularly screwed by old men, I'd probably just think that's how the world works. This is shown in cases of abuse in the US as well. Children who are abused are highly likely to abuse other children once they grow up.

That's your "cultural" effect.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:54 am

wow you have absolutely no moral or ethical truth. its simply a matter of whatever is "normal" or justifiable.

and you think i'm the dangerous one. you just don't realize it.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:38 am

kiryan wrote:wow you have absolutely no moral or ethical truth. its simply a matter of whatever is "normal" or justifiable.

and you think i'm the dangerous one. you just don't realize it.


You might want to note that I didn't say it was a good thing. Again, there is a difference between stating something will happen and saying it is a good thing. If I state that hitting a tree with an axe a bunch of times will make the tree fall down, is there a moral judgement there? No. It's just a reality. Cause and effect.

In fact I even pointed out how molesting children creates a repeating cycle, which is a bad thing for them and future children. You're focused on "ethical truth" without bothering to understand what causes something, which is a big problem because without understanding the cause you can't act to fix or prevent anything.

There is nothing ethical about simply blaming people and denouncing them. You want to blame their culture, but you don't understand that culture shifts and nothing really prevents our culture from doing the same thing under certain circumstances. Your priests have already done this, in fact.

You want to keep it from happening? Understand why it happens, then act to eliminate those circumstances in the future. THAT is ethical.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:10 am

No, you're pretty bankrupt. You don't have any basis for your beliefs, every time you look up something believing I was wrong, you've proven yourself wrong, and you freely admit to intellectual dishonesty: criticizing sources you haven't bothered to read and inventing arguments that other people never made.

And now you are trolling someone you have on ignore with your signature.

It's hard to get much more bankrupt.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Corth » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:07 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:And now you are trolling someone you have on ignore with your signature.


I'm going to agree that is in bad taste.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:01 pm

lol sarvis. you're a text book case. you desperately fear there is a God and you're on the wrong side. So you do 2 things.

1. You rationalize everyone's mistakes away as being someone else's fault hoping that when you stand before judgement you can rationalize your transgressions away.

2. You try and believe with your entire might that there is no God, everyone is the same and no one can say anyone is right or wrong.

You take increasingly perposterous positions to prove to yourself that #1 or #2 is right.

I suppose you'd agree that the mass rapes of entire villages in the Congo is natural and a product of their circumstances rather than a reflection of their culture or the evil of each individual. We should address the root causes not punish the people who actually hold them down and brutally rape women and children over and over and over.

You'll be convicted of the truth eventually, everyone is. There is a right and wrong, you are responsible for all of your actions even if the priest was giving it to you in the ass as an altar boy.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:11 pm

Corth wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:And now you are trolling someone you have on ignore with your signature.


I'm going to agree that is in bad taste.


Fair enough, it wasn't to troll him really. I truly think he needs to hear it. I don't think he's a troll anymore, I think he's built up this persona where he derives gratification from driving people away.

But, I respect your opinions (even when you're wrong ;) ) so I took it out.

Seriously though Teflor, people getting to sick of what you say to even listen anymore does NOT mean you've spouted some difficult, meaningful Truth. It means you're annoying people. Even if it is the Truth your method only pisses people off, rather than convincing them.

There are a few times when you come off as capable of reason. But there are far more times when you simply insult and belittle people.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:19 pm

kiryan wrote:lol sarvis. you're a text book case. you desperately fear there is a God and you're on the wrong side. So you do 2 things.

1. You rationalize everyone's mistakes away as being someone else's fault hoping that when you stand before judgement you can rationalize your transgressions away.

2. You try and believe with your entire might that there is no God, everyone is the same and no one can say anyone is right or wrong.


Existence of God makes no difference in this Kiryan. At least not YOUR God. Remember, He said all men are created equal and all men are sinners. I'm not in any way disagreeing with your God or the tenets of your faith when I point out that men will commit a sin like this.

Get it?

You take increasingly perposterous positions to prove to yourself that #1 or #2 is right.

I suppose you'd agree that the mass rapes of entire villages in the Congo is natural and a product of their circumstances rather than a reflection of their culture or the evil of each individual. We should address the root causes not punish the people who actually hold them down and brutally rape women and children over and over and over.


Isn't it God's job to punish? Isn't judgement something you're not supposed to do? God will judge. Not Kiryan. All we can do is try to prevent something like that from continuing. Would punishment do it? Maybe, not sure.... no idea what the situation is in the Congo so maybe it would. Then again, how do we do that? Send in the army? Kill people (a sin) and create more anger and distrust of our country, resulting in more terrorism against us?


You'll be convicted of the truth eventually, everyone is. There is a right and wrong, you are responsible for all of your actions even if the priest was giving it to you in the ass as an altar boy.


We're all responsible for our actions. If we want bad things to stop, however, we need to understand what causes behavior and fix it. Otherwise we can just let God sort it out, sure. That doesn't help the people down here though does it?

You keep wanting to think I'm evil, but all you care about is proving me wrong somehow. I made no judgement about right or wrong, I pointed out the causes of a situation... then you somehow decided I supported the situation. You assigned motives to me that aren't there so that you could be right.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:32 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:And now you are trolling someone you have on ignore with your signature.


I'm going to agree that is in bad taste.


Fair enough, it wasn't to troll him really. I truly think he needs to hear it. I don't think he's a troll anymore, I think he's built up this persona where he derives gratification from driving people away.

But, I respect your opinions (even when you're wrong ;) ) so I took it out.

Seriously though Teflor, people getting to sick of what you say to even listen anymore does NOT mean you've spouted some difficult, meaningful Truth. It means you're annoying people. Even if it is the Truth your method only pisses people off, rather than convincing them.

There are a few times when you come off as capable of reason. But there are far more times when you simply insult and belittle people.

I can respect that YOU might honestly believe that (because of some of the other stuff you believe) and I'm perfectly fine with it, but I don't think my threads or others, or really, other people in this forum need to put up with it.

I put in the time and the effort to hear what you had to say, and I argued with you with integrity. I've processed and given you my ear with everything you've had to say, including what I've disagreed with. I don't expect that you do the same, but really, if you want to have personal squabbles with me, or if you "really think I need to hear it," I have a PM box and I will read your private messages as I always have.

Lastly, being insulting isn't being incapable of reason, they're really separate things entirely.

(If someone would forward my offer to hear what Sarvis has to say in PM to spare the rest of the fourm, I would appreciate it.)
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Corth » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:32 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:And now you are trolling someone you have on ignore with your signature.


I'm going to agree that is in bad taste.


Fair enough, it wasn't to troll him really. I truly think he needs to hear it. I don't think he's a troll anymore, I think he's built up this persona where he derives gratification from driving people away.

But, I respect your opinions (even when you're wrong ;) ) so I took it out.

Seriously though Teflor, people getting to sick of what you say to even listen anymore does NOT mean you've spouted some difficult, meaningful Truth. It means you're annoying people. Even if it is the Truth your method only pisses people off, rather than convincing them.

There are a few times when you come off as capable of reason. But there are far more times when you simply insult and belittle people.

I can respect that YOU might honestly believe that (because of some of the other stuff you believe) and I'm perfectly fine with it, but I don't think my threads or others, or really, other people in this forum need to put up with it.

I put in the time and the effort to hear what you had to say, and I argued with you with integrity. I've processed and given you my ear with everything you've had to say, including what I've disagreed with. I don't expect that you do the same, but really, if you want to have personal squabbles with me, or if you "really think I need to hear it," I have a PM box and I will read your private messages as I always have.

Lastly, being insulting isn't being incapable of reason, they're really separate things entirely.

(If someone would forward my offer to hear what Sarvis has to say in PM to spare the rest of the fourm, I would appreciate it.)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:00 am

Corth wrote:(If someone would forward my offer to hear what Sarvis has to say in PM to spare the rest of the fourm, I would appreciate it.)
[/quote]

I've already said everything. Thanks though, Corth.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:38 am

Sarvis wrote:I've already said everything. Thanks though, Corth.

Anyone else find it incredibly racist that Sarvis ignored me just after he found out that I was colored?

Lol.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:47 pm

LOL better call al sharpton.

Sarvis you are evil. Evil is absence of God in thought and action. I'd rather live next to your kind of evil than say Jeffery Dahmer, but its evil none the less.

Sarvis you can't change what you wrote. You said there are no barbaric cultures or religion, they are all the same. Yes I do want to prove you wrong, or rather I want you to accept that certain cultures and religions produce violent extremism at higher rates than others. You've stated that for all intense and purpose, with your example of child abuse in a family (culture of abuse propagating abuse), but you still don't really seem to believe world view is a factor in muslims' conducting suicide bombings against civilians at the urging of accepted, even revered, prominent members of their political/social/religious structures.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:17 pm

kiryan wrote:LOL better call al sharpton.

Sarvis you are evil. Evil is absence of God in thought and action. I'd rather live next to your kind of evil than say Jeffery Dahmer, but its evil none the less.

Sarvis you can't change what you wrote. You said there are no barbaric cultures or religion, they are all the same. Yes I do want to prove you wrong, or rather I want you to accept that certain cultures and religions produce violent extremism at higher rates than others. You've stated that for all intense and purpose, with your example of child abuse in a family (culture of abuse propagating abuse), but you still don't really seem to believe world view is a factor in muslims' conducting suicide bombings against civilians at the urging of accepted, even revered, prominent members of their political/social/religious structures.



Kiryan, if you want to prove me wrong you need to do one thing: Show that our culture would not resort to the same tactics under the same circumstances.

Considering you just said you would say some judges need need to be killed, you're going to have a very difficult time convincing me you are peaceful because of your culture/religion that you would not kill civilians. (HINT: Judges are not military personnel.)

Considering that Islam prohibits homosexual behavior, you are going to have a difficult time proving their religion causes pederasty.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:47 am

If god is omnipresent... I'm not sure of what you're getting at Kiryan.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:13 pm

It boils down like this teflor. Two people do the same exact "good" thing. One does it in the name of the lord, the other just does it because its "good" or specifically opposing God. In technical Christian terms, one was good, the other was evil despite it being literally the same act. This is how a "good" person can still go to hell... evil is defined as everything external to God. If Mother Teresa had been a devotee of the FSM... evil in Christian terms, still going to hell.

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