Terrorist attack in Sweden

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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:24 pm

for me personally, you're a christian if you believe Jesus is the son of god, and are in general a "follower" of Christ or "seeking" Christ or actively practicing/not flaunting the teachings. That doesn't mean just going through the motions at church every Sunday although simply going to church and honestly trying to learn would meet my qualification.

I believe Christians as a colloquial term includes people who profess to be christians and hold most of the tenets of the westernized Christian doctrine. I consider Mormon's Christians in general political coversation, but in an actual religious context I do not immediately consider Mormons or Catholics to be christians (is the pope a leader or is he God in the flesh?) the deeper/more serious the conversation the less likely I am to accept them as Christians. I'm still a bit on the fence about that...
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:20 pm

Sarvis wrote:See, even Kiryan just said it... and HE talks to God directly!


Kiryan also just said this: "but in an actual religious context I do not immediately consider Mormons or Catholics to be christians"

Wait. What?!

Sarvis wrote:It has to do with Religious Extremists.


Nope, it has to do with Islamic extremists and terrorists, and to some, governments. It has to do with defending barbarians or cultures. That's what we've been arguing about since the get-go. You brought up creationist(?) abortion clinic bombing straw man.

Sarvis wrote:Oh I forgot your religion (burning women at the stake) is better than "their" religion (stoning.)


Again, bringing up hundred-years old past events (that ARE condemned). This does not occur any more. They still do it in the Middle East however, fervently. We try to preach peace, the Islamic extremist terrorists don't. You sure are free to toss around the word Christian as a negative, citing past examples as if to validate or excuse the Islamic extremists today. We're in the year 2010 now. The Ki'ché tribe is also in the year 2010. The Islamic extremists, and many of the "Muslims" in that region are not. The Dark Ages of all cultures and societies ended a long time ago, along with many of their shortcomings and erroneous ways. Well, almost all cultures.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:57 pm

I'm pretty uncomfortable with Catholic's reverence for the saints... Praying to a saint feels an awful lot like worship.

I'm also very wary of the infalliability of the pope and similar such doctrines... where do those concepts originate? How can man be infalliable... the only answer is if he is actually God manifest in the flesh... If you assume the Pope is God in the flesh, his authority makes sense... If not... Then lets talk about anti-pope's...

I'm not really sure whether Catholic's and Mormon's are saved... they probably are and so I don't actively evangelize/try to convert them. However, I would probably characterize them as a "false church" from Revelations if I had to do so. I tend to believe that your average non denominational church is closer to the "right" doctrine than Catholics and certainly Mormons. If I could find ANY way to be a Mormon I would, I've even considered going to a mormon church but not being a member... but they won't let you do that long term.

Again, I don't put a lot of energy into this because I'm not sitting in judgement and there is much lower hanging fruit. I mean sarvis is practically underground!
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:22 pm

It's funny that two of the most conservative(actually liberal) or libertarian people on this forum happen to belong to one of the smallest minority groups in the United States.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:23 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:You brought up creationist(?) abortion clinic bombing straw man.


No Adriorn, you just don't get it. You earnestly believe that the person blowing something up in the name of their religion is different than the person blowing something up in the name of their religion.

I don't care which religion, or hell even belief system, it is, extremism creates violence and intolerance.

Again, bringing up hundred-years old past events (that ARE condemned). This does not occur any more. They still do it in the Middle East however, fervently. We try to preach peace, the Islamic extremist terrorists don't. You sure are free to toss around the word Christian as a negative, citing past examples as if to validate or excuse the Islamic extremists today. We're in the year 2010 now. The Ki'ché tribe is also in the year 2010. The Islamic extremists, and many of the "Muslims" in that region are not. The Dark Ages of all cultures and societies ended a long time ago, along with many of their shortcomings and erroneous ways. Well, almost all cultures.


YOU may try to preach peace. Extreme _________ do not.

For fucks sake, there are some Christians who pushed for an Iraq invasion because they think it will be the beginning of the apocalypse.

Extremists are extremists. I don't care what religion or belief they are. There are American extremists as well as Muslim extremists. There are probably Buddhist extremists somewhere that take an entirely too literal interpretation of the whole "Life is suffering, suffering is caused by desire, desire can be stopped" bit.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:31 pm

Excuse me, there appears to be more extremists from CERTAIN religions. Why do you gloss over that incredibly relevant fact?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:45 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Excuse me, there appears to be more extremists from CERTAIN religions. Why do you gloss over that incredibly relevant fact?



I didn't. I've said several times that rich western countries are less likely to have extremists because our lives are more comfortable and we generally have "more to lose."

There are more extremists in poverty than there are in wealth, regardless of religion.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:06 pm

Sarvis wrote:No Adriorn, you just don't get it. You earnestly believe that the person blowing something up in the name of their religion is different than the person blowing something up in the name of their religion.


Nope, I think you're still missing the point. And like Teflor just said, it's the same thing as usual, it's as if you're glossing over all the pertinent information. There have been 9 deaths from abortion clinic bombings. The people who did that are terrorists, extremists. There have been over 3,000 from Islamic extremists (thousands more if you count other countries). Both are extremists, and both should be condemned. You're only condemning the Christian ones. You're trying to defend and excuse the Islamic extremists because of their situation, their history, their location, the US involvement. It's almost as if, in your mind, the US is more at fault here, more of a guilty party, than the 911 guys.

Sarvis wrote:There are more extremists in poverty than there are in wealth, regardless of religion.


And again, I've given you many examples of other cultures living in poverty, bad situations, historical oppression, the works, that HAVE NOT started bombing civilians, killing anyone that didn't pertain to their group. Today, the ones who do, and have, are mostly all from the same region of the world, and mostly all from the same pseudo-religion. Not from poverty stricken Dominican Republic, or Guatemala, or or or. There are more people living in relatively peaceful poverty in the world. The nutsos seem to be coming from one region, and pseudo-religion, in particular.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:28 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:You're trying to defend and excuse the Islamic extremists because of their situation, their history, their location, the US involvement. It's almost as if, in your mind, the US is more at fault here, more of a guilty party, than the 911 guys.


I did no such thing. Here is what I said when this all started:

"[Kindi's] position is that there is a segment of our population that wants all the brown people dead, making us not so different from your "extreme muslims."

That his uncle isn't actively trying to acquire WMD and forming militia groups is a testament to our national laziness and passivity more than anything else. [/quote]

That is not excusing them, that is pointing out that Muslims and Christians are similar. You can argue the quantity of extremists all you want, but the fact remains that in either religion you find both peaceful and aggressive people.

To the extent that I "defend" them I just understand that if you punch someone repeatedly they will eventually punch back. Jesus turned the other cheek, but he doesn't expect us to act like him... only to try.



And again, I've given you many examples of other cultures living in poverty, bad situations, historical oppression, the works, that HAVE NOT started bombing civilians, killing anyone that didn't pertain to their group. Today, the ones who do, and have, are mostly all from the same region of the world, and mostly all from the same pseudo-religion. Not from poverty stricken Dominican Republic, or Guatemala, or or or. There are more people living in relatively peaceful poverty in the world. The nutsos seem to be coming from one region, and pseudo-religion, in particular.


So the people in Africa who are almost constantly involved in some form of Genocide are all Muslims? Hitler was a Muslim? Kindi's uncle is a Muslim? What about Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold? Charles Manson believed he was bringing about an apocalyptic race war with his murders... Muslim?

Cultures fight over resources. Leaders use religion to motivate the populace to fight. Extremists find/create leaders who just want to kill things.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:00 pm

i'd like to step away from the blame assignments, since they're thoroughly covered already, and ask, what's your proposed solution to muslim extremism?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:49 pm

Sarvis wrote:Sure, some Middle Easterners hate Americans because of how much we've meddled in their lives and often made things worse.


Sarvis wrote:Actually, I won't say that there are no barbaric cultures in the world... I WILL say that the Middle East is probably a lot more civilized than you give it credit for and that a lot of the unrest and anger we see is caused by the West fucking with their governments constantly.


Dunno man, sounds like an attempt to excuse them by blaming someone other than themselves. BTW, who do you consider barbaric cultures?

Sarvis wrote:To the extent that I "defend" them I just understand that if you punch someone repeatedly they will eventually punch back.


I disagree, which is why I brought up all those examples of tribes in other countries, and poverty in other countries. Nowhere have you seen the level or quantity of rage, hostility, flying planes into towers, as you have with the Islamic extremists from that specific region of the world. I could Godwin you with the Hitler reference, but I won't :) Regarding Africa, if anyone in this planet has been fucked with to the extreme by others, it's been them (black Africans). They weren't flying the 911 planes however.

Sarvis wrote:Can't excuse their treatment of women at all, of course. But again, we're all human and really want the same things.


I keep going back to this sentence. It's disturbed me since I first read it. It keeps reading: "They stone women to death, but hey, we're all the same, no biggie". I hope I'm reading too much into it, but in my mind, it really sounds creepy. I think if they want the world to treat them as civilized, to try making some kind of peace with them, that is one of the things they need to immediately remove from their "culture", among others...to somewhat answer Kindi's question. The thing is, I really don't think they will.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:55 pm

just so we're clear, it's the fact that the women are stoned for committing such crimes as "being raped", right? NOT because "stoning is an indefensible form of execution" or "executing women is indefensible", but because "being raped should not be a crime"
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:25 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Dunno man, sounds like an attempt to excuse them by blaming someone other than themselves. BTW, who do you consider barbaric cultures?


Understanding the motivation behind an action is not condoning or excusing it. Ummm... 800,000 people massacred doesn't count somehow? Why? Because they weren't creative enough to use a plane?

Barbaric cultures? Matter of opinion isn't it. Kind of a loaded term really, frequently used to describe whoever the government wants you to hate and kill. Although I'm sure Europeans think we're barbaric since we don't provide healthcare for people and homosexuals can't marry, and are even still beaten in this country.

But barbaric? I don't know, probably a lot of African tribes that still live traditionally and such.


They weren't flying the 911 planes however.


No, they're too busy killing each other and starving to death.

I keep going back to this sentence. It's disturbed me since I first read it. It keeps reading: "They stone women to death, but hey, we're all the same, no biggie". I hope I'm reading too much into it, but in my mind, it really sounds creepy. I think if they want the world to treat them as civilized, to try making some kind of peace with them, that is one of the things they need to immediately remove from their "culture", among others...to somewhat answer Kindi's question. The thing is, I really don't think they will.


You keep passing atrocities off as being in the past. What really makes you different, when it comes right down to it? Are you strong enough to speak out against the crowd, to put your life on the line? Maybe you are. Most aren't.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:13 am

i think the main difference, sarvis, is that we're the Good Guys and they're the Bad Guys. in a time of war, you shouldn't try to humanize the Bad Guys
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:21 am

Oh right, I forgot. They are the Great Satan!
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:50 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Excuse me, there appears to be more extremists from CERTAIN religions. Why do you gloss over that incredibly relevant fact?



I didn't. I've said several times that rich western countries are less likely to have extremists because our lives are more comfortable and we generally have "more to lose."

There are more extremists in poverty than there are in wealth, regardless of religion.

While I don't disagree that wealth and having something to lose is a FACTOR, aren't you forgetting about the factor that made us more wealthy and more inclined to actually have things to lose than those cultures?

Don't ignore the fact that our societies build humanity out of the ground, while other societies try to make us crash and burn back into it.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:59 pm

--Regarding Africa, if anyone in this planet has been fucked with to the extreme by others, it's been them (black Africans). They weren't flying the 911 planes however.

Very true. Or the south east asians (and the Chinese). I mean really, the reason you have a $150 ipod is because Apple is paying $5 an hour for labor in China instead of $25 an hour in the USA.

--Don't ignore the fact that our societies build humanity out of the ground, while other societies try to make us crash and burn back into it.

Absolutely 100% agree.

--i think the main difference, sarvis, is that we're the Good Guys and they're the Bad Guys. in a time of war, you shouldn't try to humanize the Bad Guys
i think the main difference, sarvis, is that we're the Good Guys and they're the Bad Guys. in a time of war, you shouldn't try to humanize the Bad Guys

Another true statement, albeit dangerous to egocentrically assume we're the good guys. We happen to be in this case, but dangerous none the less.

--just so we're clear, it's the fact that the women are stoned for committing such crimes as "being raped", right? NOT because "stoning is an indefensible form of execution" or "executing women is indefensible", but because "being raped should not be a crime"

I 100% agree that its an atrocity that a woman is stoned for "adultery" when we would recognize the crime as rape. However, in terms of barbaric behavior, stoning ranks right up their with punishments from the dark ages like breaking your arms and legs, threading them through a wagon wheel and then staking you out somewhere for the birds to peck you to death. I mean really, stoning has got to be one of the most violent ways any government in the world currently uses to execute people. Not the worst in history, but among the very worst in modern days.

--Can't excuse their treatment of women at all, of course. But again, we're all human and really want the same things.
----I keep going back to this sentence. It's disturbed me since I first read it.

Sarvis is suffering from liberal universalism, no culture, race or sexual practice is better or worse than any other. Once you start accepting to judge people in this way, you can start justifying discrimination. I'm not for discrimination of the 50s and before, your black go sit over there, but honest analysis and evaluation of data should result in rational and targetted discrimination from government to business down to individuals. If an area is dangerous to walk through, discriminate against it. If poor people steal from their employer, hire wealthier individuals. If black people are generally lower educated, target them for additional educational programs. Don't make it needs based, make it race based... because that is the problem.

We are way too PC.

--i'd like to step away from the blame assignments, since they're thoroughly covered already, and ask, what's your proposed solution to muslim extremism?

--You're trying to defend and excuse the Islamic extremists because of their situation, their history, their location, the US involvement. It's almost as if, in your mind, the US is more at fault here, more of a guilty party, than the 911 guys.
----I did no such thing.

Yes you are. You are conducting yourself as an Islamic extremist apologist pure and simple. You are justifying their action and saying anyone would do the same thing in their position and specifically claiming that christians would and do via their government. You infer that in the absence of our government bombing the brown people, Christians would mount crusades and hold dark ages blasphemy trials.

--Cultures fight over resources. Leaders use religion to motivate the populace to fight. Extremists find/create leaders who just want to kill things.
----You're trying to defend and excuse the Islamic extremists because of their situation, their history, their location, the US involvement. It's almost as if, in your mind, the US is more at fault here, more of a guilty party, than the 911 guys.

I did no such thing. Here is what I said when this all started:

--Cultures fight over resources. Leaders use religion to motivate the populace to fight. Extremists find/create leaders who just want to kill things.

True... does that make culture and religion inherently bad? Is extremism inherently bad cuz I know a few extremist, redistributionist, environmentalist liberals.

-- don't care which religion, or hell even belief system, it is, extremism creates violence and intolerance.

It is also extremism that is responsible for the majority of progress in the world. from extremists like the North against slavery to the extremists rebelling against the tea party to the extremists studying global climate change.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:47 pm

Would you fucking use quote blocks. This shit is nearly impossible to read!


kiryan wrote:Very true. Or the south east asians (and the Chinese). I mean really, the reason you have a $150 ipod is because Apple is paying $5 an hour for labor in China instead of $25 an hour in the USA.


We aren't bombing Asia or installing governments. More importantly the people paying/mistreating the workers are actually other Asians who own the factories. Not to mention that I'm sure you'd normally be pointing out how them having that $5/hour (haha, more like $5/week) is better for them than not having anything at all.

So who knows, maybe we have a different definition of "fucking with" other countries. When we install a dictator in Japan and he starts killing off dissidents we can do a valid comparison, 'k?


--Don't ignore the fact that our societies build humanity out of the ground, while other societies try to make us crash and burn back into it.

Absolutely 100% agree.


You mean like Republicans wanting to drag us back to their imagined version of the 1950's?

--i think the main difference, sarvis, is that we're the Good Guys and they're the Bad Guys. in a time of war, you shouldn't try to humanize the Bad Guys
i think the main difference, sarvis, is that we're the Good Guys and they're the Bad Guys. in a time of war, you shouldn't try to humanize the Bad Guys

Another true statement, albeit dangerous to egocentrically assume we're the good guys. We happen to be in this case, but dangerous none the less.


You kinda missed his point. Interestingly, your caveat that it's "dangerous to egocentrically assume we're the good guys" is the point he was actually making.

--just so we're clear, it's the fact that the women are stoned for committing such crimes as "being raped", right? NOT because "stoning is an indefensible form of execution" or "executing women is indefensible", but because "being raped should not be a crime"

I 100% agree that its an atrocity that a woman is stoned for "adultery" when we would recognize the crime as rape. However, in terms of barbaric behavior, stoning ranks right up their with punishments from the dark ages like breaking your arms and legs, threading them through a wagon wheel and then staking you out somewhere for the birds to peck you to death. I mean really, stoning has got to be one of the most violent ways any government in the world currently uses to execute people. Not the worst in history, but among the very worst in modern days.


Heh... figures I'd find Republicans first: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/ ... 5613.shtml

Ok, so she walked away with a headache instead of death... they probably just couldn't find any rocks in the city.

Woman beaten to death for the crime of being in the wrong bathroom: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crim ... _ni-2.html

Wheelchair-bound woman beaten to death: http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/13592165/detail.html

Ok, bored of looking this shit up now. Point is that there are very violent elements within our own society. Again we are most likely less violent because of our wealth than because of any actual cultural superiority. We still enjoy seeing death and even torture in movies and other forms of entertainment. I remember friends seeking out the "Faces of Death" videos when I was a teenager to watch people die for instance.

We're not less inclined to violence, we're just lazier.

--Can't excuse their treatment of women at all, of course. But again, we're all human and really want the same things.
----I keep going back to this sentence. It's disturbed me since I first read it.

Sarvis is suffering from liberal universalism, no culture, race or sexual practice is better or worse than any other.


No. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Don't make it needs based, make it race based... because that is the problem.


Pure Gold. I hope Rags is reading this thread and archiving it should you ever actually run for office.


--i'd like to step away from the blame assignments, since they're thoroughly covered already, and ask, what's your proposed solution to muslim extremism?


You're not going to Answer Kindi's question either?

Yes you are. You are conducting yourself as an Islamic extremist apologist pure and simple. You are justifying their action and saying anyone would do the same thing in their position and specifically claiming that christians would and do via their government. You infer that in the absence of our government bombing the brown people, Christians would mount crusades and hold dark ages blasphemy trials.


No, Kiryan. Pointing out the causes of an action is not apologizing for the action.

You can ignore the cause and effect all you want. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

If every day you woke up, hit your dog with a newspaper and it bit you in return would you eventually learn to stop hitting the dog? I would.

You said we "build culture up from the ground." We did that by violently kicking foreign troops off our shores. Afterwards we did things like tar & feather supporters of the old government.

They are doing the same thing we did.


True... does that make culture and religion inherently bad?


Culture is neither good nor bad, it simply exists. Religion... I really am tempted to say it's inherently bad. I suppose it isn't, per say... but it's so easily abused and turned towards evil purposes that it's pretty close.

Is extremism inherently bad cuz I know a few extremist, redistributionist, environmentalist liberals.


Yes.

It is also extremism that is responsible for the majority of progress in the world. from extremists like the North against slavery to the extremists rebelling against the tea party to the extremists studying global climate change.


You have a funny definition of "extremist." "Extremist" does NOT mean "believes something you don't." It means "takes a belief beyond rational limits." Things like thinking God told you to do something, or thinking the world will end tomorrow if people don't stop using any electricity whatsoever.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:06 pm

How exactly is it irrational? For many, it's simply attacking the enemy.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:14 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:How exactly is it irrational? For many, it's simply attacking the enemy.


So your stance is that violence and war are rational?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:How exactly is it irrational? For many, it's simply attacking the enemy.


So your stance is that violence and war are rational?

They absolutely can be.
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If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:55 pm

Are you daft? How can you compare the actions of a few violent criminals with the action of a state? Every single article you pointed out is a CRIME in the USA. Mercislessly throwing stones at the head of a person buried in the ground is JUSTICE in Iran.

ADMIT that this is barbaric, pure and simple.

--

"Sarvis is suffering from liberal universalism, no culture, race or sexual practice is better or worse than any other.

No. Stop putting words in my mouth."

Yes that is exactly what you are doing. We're all the same. We're all equal. We all have the same intrinsic value and motivations.

To rationalize that a person is an extremist because of their condition is to remove responsiiblity from them for their actions. Poverty is the reason black people don't succeed, not because of their culture or their parenting, its poverty. Wanting a better life for their kids is why illegals come to work in the US, not because they want to take the easier and illegal path to obtain that life. Stealing is easier than earning, would you give me a pass for stealing from Bernie Madoff because of my circumstances relative to his?

Your doctrine is that nothing is anyone's fault, its all because of a 3rd external and unfair/discriminatory/evil USA/evil Republican/evil religious/evil corporate reason. That is unless your a rich white male, then everything everywhere is your fault.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:12 pm

kiryan wrote:ADMIT that this is barbaric, pure and simple.


Never said it wasn't.

Yes that is exactly what you are doing. We're all the same. We're all equal. We all have the same intrinsic value and motivations.


We are all the same. That does not excuse anyone's actions. Even your religion tells you Man was created in God's image, and that every man is a sinner. Your religion holds all men equal, as does our Constitution. The very tenets of our culture state that all men are created equal.

Who the fuck are you to question that?

The problem is that we all pretty much equally suck.

To rationalize that a person is an extremist because of their condition is to remove responsiiblity from them for their actions. Poverty is the reason black people don't succeed, not because of their culture or their parenting, its poverty. Wanting a better life for their kids is why illegals come to work in the US, not because they want to take the easier and illegal path to obtain that life. Stealing is easier than earning, would you give me a pass for stealing from Bernie Madoff because of my circumstances relative to his?

Your doctrine is that nothing is anyone's fault, its all because of a 3rd external and unfair/discriminatory/evil USA/evil Republican/evil religious/evil corporate reason. That is unless your a rich white male, then everything everywhere is your fault.


No, that's your interpretation of my stance. My stance is that circumstances make people more likely to act in inappropriate, desperate ways and that if we want them NOT to we need to understand those circumstances and change them.

Again, would you hit your dog every day if he responded by biting you? Yes? Then fine, let's keep bombing the middle east and installing murderous dictators.

No? Then maybe we should try something else so that in a few generations we aren't getting attacked by the children of the fathers we killed today.

We've had a similar argument before, about people getting hit by a car. YOU need to find blame in a situation. I want to figure out how to keep a situation from happening again.

But since you need to blame and find fault you are incapable of understanding the stance that things can be prevented if we understand the circumstances and work to prevent them.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:27 pm

kiryan wrote: ADMIT that this is barbaric, pure and simple.

Sarvis: Never said it wasn't.

You also never went on record agreeing. Instead you posted that there are no barbaric cultures or religions, we're all the same.

--

You conveniently left out "created" equal. All men are CREATED equal. What happens after that is clearly not equal. We have the same intrinsic value, but in actual practice we are certainly not "equal" we are individuals with different skills and abilities and conduct ourselves in different ways. Is the career bank robber felon equal to you when applying for a job at a bank? Certainly not. We are not equal in every context, we need to start using our powers of observation to make COMMON SENSE decisions based on the actual data. 96% of illegals are hispanic, then if you want to target illegal immigration, you target hispanics. Pure and simple.

--

bullshit, your position has not to be we need to understand them, it has been they are justified and Christians are no different. go back and read your own posts. Your every response is no its not their fault, its beacuse they are poor and we keep kicking the dog.

Osama Bin Laden had millions and made his family live in a shack to make sure they were seasoned and hardened for jihad. That is culture or religion.

--

also consider, dissension in the ranks. Why do they always make an example out of the first rebel they catch? Because dissension breeds dissension to the point it boils over. That is why every government ever has always sought to limit free speech, political speech and hate speech. Our own government tries constantly to do it and without the constitution would've succeeded repeating the mistakes of every past government.

--

What happens when dissension becomes culture? Do you honestly think Palestinians can ever improve their lives or objectively view the world as long as every other palestinian believes and teaches Jews are evil, Israel stole from us, the USA wants to eat our children? Have you seen any of their "cartoons"? evil jew steals from the poor old lady and the young Hezbollah hero shoots the jew dead?

Is that culture going to produce extremists at a rate disproportionate to other cultures/religions?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:12 pm

kiryan wrote:kiryan wrote: ADMIT that this is barbaric, pure and simple.

Sarvis: Never said it wasn't.

You also never went on record agreeing. Instead you posted that there are no barbaric cultures or religions, we're all the same.


No, actually I said there were barbaric cultures. I said PEOPLE are all the same. Culture exists because people want to be part of the pack. Religion exists because people don't understand the world around them and seek answers in the supernatural and want to be part of the pack.


You conveniently left out "created" equal. All men are CREATED equal. What happens after that is clearly not equal. We have the same intrinsic value, but in actual practice we are certainly not "equal" we are individuals with different skills and abilities and conduct ourselves in different ways. Is the career bank robber felon equal to you when applying for a job at a bank? Certainly not. We are not equal in every context, we need to start using our powers of observation to make COMMON SENSE decisions based on the actual data. 96% of illegals are hispanic, then if you want to target illegal immigration, you target hispanics. Pure and simple.


People do everything they do for the same reasons. The reason hanging out with the "wrong people" is so bad is that you want to be like your friends. IF your friends are criminals you'll be one. If you hang out with the honors students you'll try to be an honors student. If you don't you get ostracized from those friends.

If you live in Iraq you throw stones at women so that you won't have stones thrown at you.

If you live in the southwest you hate Mexicans because they're stealing your jobs/resources.


bullshit, your position has not to be we need to understand them, it has been they are justified and Christians are no different. go back and read your own posts. Your every response is no its not their fault, its beacuse they are poor and we keep kicking the dog.


Never said anything was justified. This is a purely cause & effect situation. Justification and blame have no bearing whatsoever on the situation. It's like saying I think an avalanche was justified because a hiker started yodeling. It's nonsensical.

Osama Bin Laden had millions and made his family live in a shack to make sure they were seasoned and hardened for jihad. That is culture or religion.


Yes. I can't keep religions entirely straight, but did you chop a piece of your kids' penis off? Do you force them to learn to get them ready for the real world? Do you homeschool them because you think your beliefs are better than what they might pick up in a public school?

Willing to bet you've taught your sons how to shoot just in case they ever need to defend the homestead. Right?

Yeah, you're a lot different.

also consider, dissension in the ranks. Why do they always make an example out of the first rebel they catch? Because dissension breeds dissension to the point it boils over.


Yes. Why do you think revolutionary soldiers tarred and feathered Tories?


That is why every government ever has always sought to limit free speech, political speech and hate speech. Our own government tries constantly to do it and without the constitution would've succeeded repeating the mistakes of every past government.


I don't even know what you're ranting about anymore...

You're only showing that an Iraqi man has to throw stones whether he wants to or not, otherwise the community will ostracize him with those same rocks.

What happens when dissension becomes culture?


America gets founded?

Do you honestly think Palestinians can ever improve their lives or objectively view the world as long as every other palestinian believes and teaches Jews are evil, Israel stole from us, the USA wants to eat our children? Have you seen any of their "cartoons"? evil jew steals from the poor old lady and the young Hezbollah hero shoots the jew dead?


So you prove them right by bombing them? They don't need cartoons, all they need to do is look down the street at a smoking crater. Palestinians can never learn differently if their entire experience is that we keep getting them killed. We bomb them. We install dictators that kill them. We bomb them some more. We feed their beliefs. We keep hitting the dog. We keep making loud noises in an avalanche area.

These people are reacting in exactly the same way you would. You, who has said he wanted to take up arms against our government yet preaches that he is the civilized, peaceful one.


Is that culture going to produce extremists at a rate disproportionate to other cultures/religions?


Yes. But not much really keeps other cultures/religions from sliding in that direction. Not getting bombed helps. Having money for giant tvs helps.

Then again, we still kill people as a form of justice.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:28 pm

Genetics are a testament to how people are different. Science so much bears that out. Your thoughts presented here aren't coherent, nor are they supported by evidence.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:33 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Genetics are a testament to how people are different. Science so much bears that out. Your thoughts presented here aren't coherent, nor are they supported by evidence.


When you show me the genes that make a person not seek safety within a community, you'll have a point.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:38 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Genetics are a testament to how people are different. Science so much bears that out. Your thoughts presented here aren't coherent, nor are they supported by evidence.


When you show me the genes that make a person not seek safety within a community, you'll have a point.

No, I have a million valid points without your baseless attempt to marginalize an important scientific feature of individuals and their personality traits. You need to learn about genetics. You might also want to check out the DSM IV.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:47 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Genetics are a testament to how people are different. Science so much bears that out. Your thoughts presented here aren't coherent, nor are they supported by evidence.


When you show me the genes that make a person not seek safety within a community, you'll have a point.

No, I have a million valid points without your baseless attempt to marginalize an important scientific feature of individuals and their personality traits. You need to learn about genetics. You might also want to check out the DSM IV.


If you have a point then make it. You don't, however, so feel free to go with your typical deflections. I'm sure it's "obvious" and I should "just know" if I "weren't so ignorant" of whatever imagined bullshit is in your head. Don't forget your pithy line about how you "don't need to cite a source for the sky being blue."
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:55 pm

I'll feel free to do so, as long as you attach ridiculous, irrelevant qualifiers to completely valid points you can't refute. My point stands that people ARE different and genetics bears it out. It flies in the face of:
Sarvis wrote:I said PEOPLE are all the same.

But you don't have the intellectual courage to do admit that you're wrong or post anything that's not a load of Sarvis.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:57 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:I'll feel free to do so, as long as you attach ridiculous, irrelevant qualifiers to completely valid points you can't refute. My point stands that people ARE different and genetics bears it out. It flies in the face of:
Sarvis wrote:I said PEOPLE are all the same.

But you don't have the intellectual courage to do admit that you're wrong or post anything that's not a load of Sarvis.



:roll: Fine, you're overly pedantic point is correct. People are not all 100% exactly the same. We are not all clones of each other. You "win."

Now can the rest of us get on with what we're actually talking about please?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:51 pm

i'd like to step away from the blame assignments, since they're thoroughly covered already, and ask, what's your proposed solution to muslim extremism?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:38 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:I'll feel free to do so, as long as you attach ridiculous, irrelevant qualifiers to completely valid points you can't refute. My point stands that people ARE different and genetics bears it out. It flies in the face of:
Sarvis wrote:I said PEOPLE are all the same.

But you don't have the intellectual courage to do admit that you're wrong or post anything that's not a load of Sarvis.



:roll: Fine, you're overly pedantic point is correct. People are not all 100% exactly the same. We are not all clones of each other. You "win."

Now can the rest of us get on with what we're actually talking about please?

Ok, but I want to point out that it's not overly pedantic. Human beings have a wide variety of motivations. We aren't all motivated by the same things or for the same reasons. Personality traits are frequently linked to genetic markers.
Sarvis wrote:People do everything they do for the same reasons.

Few things could be further from the truth. People are in fact different, their reasons are different, what they do is different... how they respond, how they socialize, how they integrate or diverge. Sexual orientation is an OBVIOUS indicator that we DON'T do everything for the same reasons.

It's difficult to understand that people can be fundamentally different because we have a way of seeing ourselves in other people... seeing things as we are, rather than as they are.

But you need to know that people are significantly different. No amount of cultural socialization and societal repression can make us all the same, as is evident in the people who are destroyed by the homogenization process that is public schools and societal peer pressure.

Nor are cultures the same. The fact that we don't all feel the same emotions and react the same way is an important one, not in the blame game, but because the important realization to developing solutions between different kinds of people - is that not all people are the same.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:40 pm

--Yes. I can't keep religions entirely straight, but did you chop a piece of your kids' penis off?

Yes, because I believe its easier to keep clean. I did not circumsize him because God told me too. There was some culture in there too undoubtedly, doing what is "normal", but the biggest issue in my mind is clean. I knew about a dozen uncircumsized men and at least 3 of them underwent the procedure later in life because of hygenic issues (and probably some culture).

--Do you force them to learn to get them ready for the real world?

Yes

--Do you homeschool them because you think your beliefs are better than what they might pick up in a public school?

No, I home school 1 of my 3 school age children because he learns better with independent study and has a very disciplined, somehwat introverted personality and he wants to be a doctor. The exact opposite is true for the one who claims to want to homeschool but is not allowed. The third is autistic and receives specialized education. They are required to notify me and confirm my acceptance of any "social stories" before teaching them to her (social stories are appropriate behavior, like stealing is bad, if you're mad talk don't hit etc...).

I am deeply concerned about the values and propaganda my kids are exposed to at school and I regularly get up in their face when they cross the line, and I constantly teach them my value system at home. You can't isolate them from society for 18 years, then turn them loose in it. You have to teach them to resist it for 18 years and pray you equipped them to do so.

--Willing to bet you've taught your sons how to shoot just in case they ever need to defend the homestead. Right?

One shoots, one is not allowed any where near my guns.. not even when I'm cleaning not even carrying them in their locked cases. This is because of the afore mentioend discipline issues and additionally, he's got a red/orange personality... a risk taker. Lastly, he goes to a working class school where sports are life and drugs and delinquency are rife. I won't introduce him to guns until I'm sure he's charted a responsible path in life/school. So far he's picking friends who get in more trouble than I accept s I do not extend him the same measure of trust that I do his brother.

--Yeah, you're a lot different.

Yes, I am very different. I'm an INTJ, a relutant mastermind, 1-4% of the population falls into this personality category. Oh wait, I forgot, we're all the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTJ
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:58 pm

Similarly, I've wanted to take my younger brother shooting for a very long time. I did not do so until he was making his way through college and some of the behaviors that concerned me had changed. And then, we didn't just go to the range. We took a two day NRA course before we even got to shoot anything.

There were a large number of other people in the class, mostly father and son, husband and wife pairings. When 1 out of every 4 adults in the United States owns a firearm (more than 1 in 3 households), why is it any surprise that the wide and vast majority of gun owners and users are deeply responsible and respectful of gun safety?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:13 pm

No, because everyone is the same, you're the same as a gang member, a raging alcoholic husband who comes home and finds his wife screwing the neighbor and a disaffected columbine highschooler. You have the same motivations and necessarily respond the same to stimuli as criminals therefore all guns should be illegal and all gun owners are dangerous.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:18 pm

kiryan wrote:--Yes. I can't keep religions entirely straight, but did you chop a piece of your kids' penis off?

Yes, because I believe its easier to keep clean. I did not circumsize him because God told me too. There was some culture in there too undoubtedly, doing what is "normal", but the biggest issue in my mind is clean. I knew about a dozen uncircumsized men and at least 3 of them underwent the procedure later in life because of hygenic issues (and probably some culture).

--Do you force them to learn to get them ready for the real world?

Yes

--Do you homeschool them because you think your beliefs are better than what they might pick up in a public school?

No, I home school 1 of my 3 school age children because he learns better with independent study and has a very disciplined, somehwat introverted personality and he wants to be a doctor. The exact opposite is true for the one who claims to want to homeschool but is not allowed. The third is autistic and receives specialized education. They are required to notify me and confirm my acceptance of any "social stories" before teaching them to her (social stories are appropriate behavior, like stealing is bad, if you're mad talk don't hit etc...).

I am deeply concerned about the values and propaganda my kids are exposed to at school and I regularly get up in their face when they cross the line, and I constantly teach them my value system at home. You can't isolate them from society for 18 years, then turn them loose in it. You have to teach them to resist it for 18 years and pray you equipped them to do so.

--Willing to bet you've taught your sons how to shoot just in case they ever need to defend the homestead. Right?

One shoots, one is not allowed any where near my guns.. not even when I'm cleaning not even carrying them in their locked cases. This is because of the afore mentioend discipline issues and additionally, he's got a red/orange personality... a risk taker. Lastly, he goes to a working class school where sports are life and drugs and delinquency are rife. I won't introduce him to guns until I'm sure he's charted a responsible path in life/school. So far he's picking friends who get in more trouble than I accept s I do not extend him the same measure of trust that I do his brother.

--Yeah, you're a lot different.

Yes, I am very different. I'm an INTJ, a relutant mastermind, 1-4% of the population falls into this personality category. Oh wait, I forgot, we're all the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTJ



My point, of course, is that you're preparing your kids for the future as best you can in our society. Saddam was doing the same for the future he foresaw.

HOW you go about it may be different, but the reason you did it was not.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:20 pm

kiryan wrote:No, because everyone is the same, you're the same as a gang member, a raging alcoholic husband who comes home and finds his wife screwing the neighbor and a disaffected columbine highschooler. You have the same motivations and necessarily respond the same to stimuli as criminals therefore all guns should be illegal and all gun owners are dangerous.


All gun owners are dangerous. Kind of the point of owning a gun, isn't it?

And yes, they are the same. You and the gang member both seek the approval of your peers so that you can stay within a community and be safe, for instance.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:22 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:I'll feel free to do so, as long as you attach ridiculous, irrelevant qualifiers to completely valid points you can't refute. My point stands that people ARE different and genetics bears it out. It flies in the face of:
Sarvis wrote:I said PEOPLE are all the same.

But you don't have the intellectual courage to do admit that you're wrong or post anything that's not a load of Sarvis.



:roll: Fine, you're overly pedantic point is correct. People are not all 100% exactly the same. We are not all clones of each other. You "win."

Now can the rest of us get on with what we're actually talking about please?

Ok, but I want to point out that it's not overly pedantic. Human beings have a wide variety of motivations. We aren't all motivated by the same things or for the same reasons. Personality traits are frequently linked to genetic markers.
Sarvis wrote:People do everything they do for the same reasons.

Few things could be further from the truth. People are in fact different, their reasons are different, what they do is different... how they respond, how they socialize, how they integrate or diverge. Sexual orientation is an OBVIOUS indicator that we DON'T do everything for the same reasons.

It's difficult to understand that people can be fundamentally different because we have a way of seeing ourselves in other people... seeing things as we are, rather than as they are.

But you need to know that people are significantly different. No amount of cultural socialization and societal repression can make us all the same, as is evident in the people who are destroyed by the homogenization process that is public schools and societal peer pressure.

Nor are cultures the same. The fact that we don't all feel the same emotions and react the same way is an important one, not in the blame game, but because the important realization to developing solutions between different kinds of people - is that not all people are the same.



Ok then, tell me which motivations are genetically absent for an Iraqi:

1) Food
2) Shelter
3) Procreation
4) Security/Safety
5) Community
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:44 pm

Just because the basic motivations, maslow's hierarchy of needs, are the same does not mean our response to situations is going to be the same. History is filled with unique MASS occurences that can only be explained by culture and religion... basic motivations never change right? The mass religious suicides are good examples that work in opposition to every basic need. What about the spartans and throwing their "weak" babies into a pit to die (some evidence this was not as widespread as legend) because they would not make good warriors? Few other nations in history have resorted to these measures to provide for their food and security needs...

Once you accept that cultures and religion can influence reaction and behavior, you can argue that cultures are different, you can rank cultures in terms of "barbarism" you can say x is more barbaric than y. You can't universalize it and say anyone would do the same in the same situation. If you took a bunch of pacifists in the palestinian situation, would you expect them to start conducting suicide bombings? Or are you saying if you took pacifists and subjected them to decades of the Palestininian life they would give up their belief system/culture and become suicide bombers? While that may be, the culture has fundamentally changed into one that is barbaric and accepts / codones violence.

I can accept that "Lord of the Flies" happens and is even possibly the most likely outcome. However, we are specifically talking about degrees of barbarism in culture and religion. Lord of the Flies pretty much proves that barbaric culture can change individual behavior. Now, if a culture/religion is operating like the "Lord of the Flies" would you say its barbaric? If it was turning out suicide bombers in the hundreds, would you still insist that there is nothing wrong with the culture/religion? There is something fundamentally wrong with the culture even if the individual members could easily shift into a different less barbaric existence.

Culture is obviously partially a reflection of circumstance, and the best way to change may be to address the "wrongs", but the actual operating culture IS BARBARIC and should be universally condemned not rationalized. Failure to do so means I could and should justify the Christian church's conduct in the middle ages by their circumstance. I won't do that because they conducted themselves in a wholly barbaric and unfair manner. The same unfair manner that it is to strap a bomb to your chest and go into a market of children and women and blow yourself up. Barracks, thats war tactics, market nightclub subway is barbaric terrorism.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Kindi » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:52 pm

i'd like to step away from the origin discussion, since that's thoroughly covered already, and ask, what's your proposed solution to muslim extremism?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:05 pm

focused attention and universal condemnation.

muslims need to make a choice that they turned a blind eye towards for centuries. Take on their extremists confront them with the law (religious or country) and judge them by their response. The USA did and does the exact same thing with our own extremists. Waco, the KKK, slave owners, the anti government hicks in the applachias... etc...
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:20 pm

kiryan wrote:Just because the basic motivations, maslow's hierarchy of needs, are the same does not mean our response to situations is going to be the same.


No, of course not. However our responses are all still trying to achieve the same goals. therefore we are the same. To the extent that our "responses" are different... well, look at history and you can pretty much see different populaces going through the exact same responses to situations. Sure, Revolutionary War soldiers didn't fly airplanes into buildings... but they WERE violently trying to remove the influence of foreign leaders. I think you even said yourself that Britain condemned our war tactics as barbaric at the time.

In fact, we adopted those tactics because we were simply overmatched in military strength and traditional tactics wouldn't have worked. Is the Middle East in a terribly different situation today?

History is filled with unique MASS occurences that can only be explained by culture and religion... basic motivations never change right? The mass religious suicides are good examples that work in opposition to every basic need.


Works in opposition to every basic need except the need to belong to a group. Which is clearly a pretty strong need. (In fact self-sacrifice is common, humans instinctively want to ensure the group's survival. I wonder if these mass suicides play off that... "Ok now everyone has to drink this so the spaceship will pick us up. Remember, if anyone's faith wavers the aliens will not pick us up and our souls will be lost!" )

But thanks for pointing out something so fundamentally dangerous about religion.


Once you accept that cultures and religion can influence reaction and behavior, you can argue that cultures are different, you can rank cultures in terms of "barbarism" you can say x is more barbaric than y.


Sure, but where does that get you besides demonizing the "Bad Guys?" Shia and Sunni leaders are making very similar speeches saying we are Barbaric. It doesn't get you anywhere. It just further's the problem.

You can't universalize it and say anyone would do the same in the same situation.


Except that if everyone around you is screaming to go kill the "Bad Guys" you'll go along with it.
...If everyone around you is fighting off foreign invaders you will too
...If everyone around you is drinking poison you will too

In fact Americans got quite violent towards people of Arabic descent after 9/11. Beatings, arson... do you not think that violence would have grown if there were more attacks on our soil?


If you took a bunch of pacifists in the palestinian situation, would you expect them to start conducting suicide bombings?


Not a bunch, because they would band together and form their own society within theirs. Take one of them though...

Hrm... was the guys conversion in Avatar unbelievable to you?

If it was turning out suicide bombers in the hundreds, would you still insist that there is nothing wrong with the culture/religion? There is something fundamentally wrong with the culture even if the individual members could easily shift into a different less barbaric existence.


Hard to make a valid comparison though isn't it? Can we be sure our culture wouldn't churn out hundreds of suicide bombers if we were occupied by vastly superior military forces and the occasional missile went off target and hit a church or something?

I'm not.

Culture is obviously partially a reflection of circumstance, and the best way to change may be to address the "wrongs", but the actual operating culture IS BARBARIC and should be universally condemned not rationalized. Failure to do so means I could and should justify the Christian church's conduct in the middle ages by their circumstance. I won't do that because they conducted themselves in a wholly barbaric and unfair manner. The same unfair manner that it is to strap a bomb to your chest and go into a market of children and women and blow yourself up. Barracks, thats war tactics, market nightclub subway is barbaric terrorism.


Actually, I'd say convincing someone to commit suicide for a military attack is kind of barbaric in itself.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:27 pm

kiryan wrote:focused attention and universal condemnation.

muslims need to make a choice that they turned a blind eye towards for centuries. Take on their extremists confront them with the law (religious or country) and judge them by their response. The USA did and does the exact same thing with our own extremists. Waco, the KKK, slave owners, the anti government hicks in the applachias... etc...


Where does that get you though? Think about it, managers have to actually _learn_ how to give constructive criticism. Why? Because if all you do is tell someone they are bad, they just resent you and think of you as the bad guy. You can't just condemn their actions/culture/religion and think they'll magically change. It just won't work that way.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:34 pm

Sarvis wrote:Ok then, tell me which motivations are genetically absent for an Iraqi:

1) Food
2) Shelter
3) Procreation
4) Security/Safety
5) Community

It's a testament to your intelligence if that's all the human motivations you can think of.
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If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:43 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Ok then, tell me which motivations are genetically absent for an Iraqi:

1) Food
2) Shelter
3) Procreation
4) Security/Safety
5) Community

It's a testament to your intelligence if that's all the human motivations you can think of.


Name another. Hell even Community and Shelter pretty much trace back to a need for security and safety.

Oh wait, you won't name another because you're still playing your game. Is it something so obvious you don't need to cite it?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:00 pm

In fact, we adopted those tactics because we were simply overmatched in military strength and traditional tactics wouldn't have worked. Is the Middle East in a terribly different situation today?

--yes, the situation is fundamentally different when you are targetting civilians. This is a fundamental concept in all western culture (as far as I am aware). You don't target women and children, you don't target civilians. You don't kidnap children and women and threaten them with torture to force others to change their ways.

Despite your support for "different tactics" when its a palestinian bombing a night club, you're one of the most vocal critics of the so called "water boarding" torture. Isn't that just good tactics, not barbaric? I give some ground on the 9/11, despite civilians dieing, they were targetting military installations, congress and the white house... The twin towers could be thought of as part of the supply chain... and might qualify as "different tactics" with historical precedence... (Romans often burned crops and occasionally salted fields behind them). I can not find any way to justify bombing a night club or a market where civilians are just trying to get food for the day.

Sure, but where does that get you besides demonizing the "Bad Guys?" Shia and Sunni leaders are making very similar speeches saying we are Barbaric. It doesn't get you anywhere. It just further's the problem.

--sure, its a problem because perspective is relative to your world view. However, is the answer to the problem to lie to yourself and everyone and claim there are no differences or to talk about the differences? How much better would African Americans be served if we could have honest conversations about their subculture for the past 50 years, the lack of strong parenting for one, without declaring everything is racist? Not having a father or strong father figure is one of the leading predictors for being incarcerated.

In fact Americans got quite violent towards people of Arabic descent after 9/11. Beatings, arson... do you not think that violence would have grown if there were more attacks on our soil?

--so you don't believe in American exceptionalism either. Well it fits, your president doesn't either. I take issue with your declaration that "Americans" got quite violent. Some Americans, a very small portion of Americans, behaved in this manner. Probably no more so than the small portion of Americans that beat up gays. We are not talking about some muslims. We're talking about a lot of them either directly attack, or support financially and spirtiaully or indirectly support these actions by not protesting. Iran, I believe, had a program where they literally gave the family of suicide bombers $25k.

Not a bunch, because they would band together and form their own society within theirs. Take one of them though...
--would they? I suppose it could depend on how large the group is. but thats teh whole point isn't it... whats the culture/religion of the group and is that responsible for higher than expected acts of "barbarism" or terrorism.
Hrm... was the guys conversion in Avatar unbelievable to you?

--ok lets turn it around, what if an Avatar went to the marines and helped them destroy his back assward's people. Would that be so unbelievable to you? Would it be wrong or would it just be different since he had the same hierarchy of needs?

Hard to make a valid comparison though isn't it? Can we be sure our culture wouldn't churn out hundreds of suicide bombers if we were occupied by vastly superior military forces and the occasional missile went off target and hit a church or something?

--No sorry, it wouldn't be hard at all. If christianity perverted to the point we could justify suicide bombings targetting our enemy's children then I would separate myself from that culture/religion and be on my own. If they ran me out of town, I'd leave or go down fighting. Maybe your character is too weak to stand up for what you believe, but mine is not. I tend to believe American's have a moral compass and even if a large segment of our population engaged in suicide bombings against women and children, we would condemn those actions.

--Actually, I'd say convincing someone to commit suicide for a military attack is kind of barbaric in itself.

ok, good start. would you agree then that a culture/religion that turns out more suicide bombers indicates it is more barbaric than one that turns out almost none? Lets say all things are equal as contrived as that may be, is the society turning out suicide bombers more barbaric?
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:07 pm

kiryan wrote:--yes, the situation is fundamentally different when you are targetting civilians. This is a fundamental concept in all western culture (as far as I am aware). You don't target women and children, you don't target civilians. You don't kidnap children and women and threaten them with torture to force others to change their ways.


Umm, no Kiryan. That is their RESPONSE to the situation. They are occupied by a superior military force who is chosing their leaders, just like the Colonies were. That is the situation. It is the same.

Despite your support for "different tactics" when its a palestinian bombing a night club, you're one of the most vocal critics of the so called "water boarding" torture. Isn't that just good tactics, not barbaric?


Who said anything about support? This is a response to a stimulus. Just like a dog biting you when you hit it. What part of that aren't you getting? I don't support this as a tactic, or think it is a good thing. However, they are fighting back in the way they think is most effective. (It isn't effective, however so it's not really a good tactic in any light.)

I give some ground on the 9/11, despite civilians dieing, they were targetting military installations, congress and the white house... The twin towers could be thought of as part of the supply chain... and might qualify as "different tactics" with historical precedence... (Romans often burned crops and occasionally salted fields behind them). I can not find any way to justify bombing a night club or a market where civilians are just trying to get food for the day.


So why is a tower full of office workers a valid target but not a nightclub? You're equivocating. The real intent of either attack is to cause fear and it works. What they fail to understand is that when a society is scared they won't simply concede, they will fight back. Which we have done, and will keep doing. To which they will respond with more terror attacks.

sure, its a problem because perspective is relative to your world view. However, is the answer to the problem to lie to yourself and everyone and claim there are no differences or to talk about the differences? How much better would African Americans be served if we could have honest conversations about their subculture for the past 50 years, the lack of strong parenting for one, without declaring everything is racist? Not having a father or strong father figure is one of the leading predictors for being incarcerated.


Funny thing being that you could point out the lack of father figure thing WITHOUT talking about blacks. You chose to, then wonder why it's racist? Do you think white people all automagically get fathers? I grew up without one somehow, and I'm as pale as they come.


--so you don't believe in American exceptionalism either.


Huh?

Well it fits, your president doesn't either. I take issue with your declaration that "Americans" got quite violent. Some Americans, a very small portion of Americans, behaved in this manner. Probably no more so than the small portion of Americans that beat up gays.


I wouldn't be surprised if there were a huge cross-section there, but how many gay nightclubs have been burned down in the last couple decades? For that matter, how many Americans wanted to bomb Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and anywhere else a Muslim might be found? Again, a large percentage of the population wanted Muslims dead... but depended on the government to do it.

We are not talking about some muslims. We're talking about a lot of them either directly attack, or support financially and spirtiaully or indirectly support these actions by not protesting. Iran, I believe, had a program where they literally gave the family of suicide bombers $25k.


The same way you don't protest a bomb hitting a schoolhouse in Iraq?

--ok lets turn it around, what if an Avatar went to the marines and helped them destroy his back assward's people. Would that be so unbelievable to you? Would it be wrong or would it just be different since he had the same hierarchy of needs?


No, why would it be unbelievable? Assuming you mean he lived among them for a while in a similar scenario.

--No sorry, it wouldn't be hard at all. If christianity perverted to the point we could justify suicide bombings targetting our enemy's children


It has, in the past, been perverted enough to cause wars, genocides, burn women at the stake and torture people into confession. This. Has. Happened.

then I would separate myself from that culture/religion and be on my own. If they ran me out of town, I'd leave or go down fighting.


Or at least tied to a burning stake.

Maybe your character is too weak to stand up for what you believe, but mine is not. I tend to believe American's have a moral compass and even if a large segment of our population engaged in suicide bombings against women and children, we would condemn those actions.


Mine isn't, but I think most people are too weak to stand up to their group.



ok, good start. would you agree then that a culture/religion that turns out more suicide bombers indicates it is more barbaric than one that turns out almost none?


We do train soldiers to follow orders without question in case we need to send them on missions from which they will not return.


Lets say all things are equal as contrived as that may be, is the society turning out suicide bombers more barbaric?


Ok, sure. But that's so contrived as to be meaningless... and we'd have to actually be in that situation to make sure we'd not turn down that path.

Remember, Rome considered themselves the pinnacle of civilization... yet their primary entertainment was watching people fight to the death.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:10 pm

--Umm, no Kiryan. That is their RESPONSE to the situation. They are occupied by a superior military force who is chosing their leaders, just like the Colonies were. That is the situation. It is the same.

ok the situation is the same, thats bad word choice. Their response to the situation is fundamentally different. The colonists didn't, for the most part, target women and children for hostage taking or suicide bombings.
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Re: Terrorist attack in Sweden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:42 am

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Ok then, tell me which motivations are genetically absent for an Iraqi:

1) Food
2) Shelter
3) Procreation
4) Security/Safety
5) Community

It's a testament to your intelligence if that's all the human motivations you can think of.


Name another. Hell even Community and Shelter pretty much trace back to a need for security and safety.

Oh wait, you won't name another because you're still playing your game. Is it something so obvious you don't need to cite it?

Your flippant, evidenceless, unsupported bullshit deserves no further response than this: keep up your bullshit, because if you can incite our society into stoning you to death, you would actually prove yourself right.
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If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
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