living in an apartment is bad for you

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kiryan
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living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:09 pm

Duh. but this report finds kids in apartments get 2nd / 3rd hand smoke regardless of whether anyone in the apartment smokes.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/a ... 053&page=1

So next up will be regulation for smoke free apartment buildings or insanely expensive filtration systems to prevent non smoking apartments from being penetrated by smoke. Apartments being sued by people who got cancer but didn't smoke. Probably some racism lawsuits / lobbying because it disproportionately affects poor black people.

In the end, smoking will get even more ridiculously expensive, law books will get that much more expensive.

I'm a libertarian, but if you're seriously going to regulate co2 because its dangerous, its time to ban smoking.

At least we don't live in Sweden, smoking without explicit consent from your girlfriend might be considered assault!
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Re: living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby Pril » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:15 pm

Actually in our area there are a lot of places where you can rent an apartment or buy a condo and the condo's/apartments are smoke free. What they will do is have for example 1 smoker building and a few non smoker buildings and I fully approve of this. The apartment I used to live with would fill up with smoke every night because the guy below us smoked. It would get so bad that I had problems breathing and I don't even have asthma. We asked to be moved twice and when they refused we broke our lease. They tried to hold our deposit but once I told them that I would call the health department on them and then sue them they returned it.
The best of WTF statments of '06
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Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'
Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'
Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
kiryan
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Re: living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:20 pm

Its not bad because its privately decided and its reasonable. What will be bad is when the government decides to draft the regulations and enforce them. Where you as a smoker will be evicted onto the street and fined etc for smoking in a non smoking apartment. Where you will be sued by your tenants or by your neighbors for smoking in a place you are legally allowed to smoke.

Here's a case from a couple years ago. 2 trial lawyers threatened to sue a neighbor for smoking in her apartment because they could smell it. They probably could've won... but after regulations are drafted that use this as a basis (giving the underlying principle legitimacy), anyone could win that case.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/stor ... 592&page=1
Pril
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Re: living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby Pril » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:27 pm

My views on smoking are pretty black and white. I really don't care what others do as long as it does not affect me. Honestly if you live in a smoking apartment complex then you have no right to bitch to your neighbor about being able to smell the smoke. They have as much right to smoke in their apartment as you do to live in yours and not have to smell it. Your issue should be with the apartment complex for not properly insulating the apartments. Plus now a days most places will have a non smoking building.
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:29 pm

It's one thing to want real-estate management companies to do things in a way that makes more sense for all of its customers.

It's another thing to force them to act a specific manner through the force of government.

Still, I would definitely reward a management company that had a no-smoking building with my business.


HOWEVER, to be honest, people are supposed to have the RIGHT to peacefully and quietly enjoy their rented housing. That should already include clean air.
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- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
kiryan
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Re: living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:05 pm

Living next to a highly traffic'd highway puts you at significantly higher risk for a variety of respiratory conditions.. I believe double or triple the rate. Living in Los Angeles will give you permanent lung disease by the time you are 18.

Should we outlaw driving within 1000 feet of a house to prevent the exhaust from your vehicle affecting my health? Should we outlaw all cars period?

No, despite it affecting you, reasonable accomodations and conditions are accepted by everyone to live in proximity to each other. How do you decide that its ok to live with air pollution, but not cigarette smoke.

The big thing in waste water treatment right now is pharmaceuticals in the water supply... whether via urine or via dumping your pills down the toilet. Do we need billion dollar upgrades to make sure someone else's pill use isn't affecting your health via drinking water?
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Re: living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:49 pm

kiryan wrote:
Should we outlaw driving within 1000 feet of a house to prevent the exhaust from your vehicle affecting my health? Should we outlaw all cars period?


We should have emissions standards and push people towards electric cars.

The big thing in waste water treatment right now is pharmaceuticals in the water supply... whether via urine or via dumping your pills down the toilet. Do we need billion dollar upgrades to make sure someone else's pill use isn't affecting your health via drinking water?


Depends, do you feel like growing boobs from some transgender's hormone treatments?
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kiryan
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Re: living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:16 pm

Power plants cause air pollution to. If global warming is to be believed, we can expect increases in skin cancer. Can you afford to replace your car(s)? I know I can't replace my 15 passenger van with something electric, nor my AWD jeep

At what point does what I need to do for you to make sure I'm not infringing upon your life/liberty/pursuit of happyness turn into you requiring me to do things that take away my life/liberty/happyness?

Is it unreasonable to require me to install a million dollar clean room setup to be able to smoke in my apartment or home. It is unreasonable for me to expect you to have to be exposed to my smoke for hours on end. As long as its legal, you should expect to be exposed to a modest amount regardless of what harm it may cause you. Whether thats on the street, in a bar or in the apartment next to mine.

Especially in your "home". Your freedom within your "home" is generally vast and with very little intrusion. You can't be evicted very easily in someone else's property principally because it is operating at your home. What's next? Being sued for exposing someone to the 3rd hand smoke off your clothes by walking by them on the street (3rd hand smoke is smoke particles on surfaces that become airborne due to disturbance)?
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Re: living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby Pril » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:28 pm

kiryan wrote:Power plants cause air pollution to. If global warming is to be believed, we can expect increases in skin cancer. Can you afford to replace your car(s)? I know I can't replace my 15 passenger van with something electric, nor my AWD jeep

At what point does what I need to do for you to make sure I'm not infringing upon your life/liberty/pursuit of happyness turn into you requiring me to do things that take away my life/liberty/happyness?

Is it unreasonable to require me to install a million dollar clean room setup to be able to smoke in my apartment or home. It is unreasonable for me to expect you to have to be exposed to my smoke for hours on end. As long as its legal, you should expect to be exposed to a modest amount regardless of what harm it may cause you. Whether thats on the street, in a bar or in the apartment next to mine.

Especially in your "home". Your freedom within your "home" is generally vast and with very little intrusion. You can't be evicted very easily in someone else's property principally because it is operating at your home. What's next? Being sued for exposing someone to the 3rd hand smoke off your clothes by walking by them on the street (3rd hand smoke is smoke particles on surfaces that become airborne due to disturbance)?


Kiryan as I said in my example my issue wasn't with the tenant below us who was smoking but with the management company. There ARE things they can do. They can send in the building engineers to check if there are leeks in your apartment (there were in mine and the engineers were never sent). You can offer the tenant to switch apartments (they refused to move me even when I requested it). I think that there are definitely things that can be done to provide for people to live in a state where they can breath.
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
kiryan
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Re: living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:46 pm

Right, I'm not against a private individual / corporation making this decision. I'm against a law / legal precedent in this area.

The thing is that apartment buildings generally share some sort of central heating / cooling system... smoke particles are very difficult to corral and its why smokers smell like smoke... because all these particles are clinging to everything they own. The walls, their clothes, their hair etc... While you could dramatically limit the smoke transmission through the duct work, you can't eliminate it without unreasonably expensive equipment. Also, there are more than enough "leaks" around your doors, between uninsulated walls, bathroom ducting etc to make elimianting leaks all but impossible. I would be fine with reasonable standards perhaps even including spray foam behind electrical outlets... but if your standard is no smoke from them can harm you, thats practically impossible.

Your apartment shouldn't smell like an ash tray, but if you open the patio door or front door and smell smoke... well thats something else.
Pril
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Re: living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby Pril » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:55 pm

kiryan wrote:Right, I'm not against a private individual / corporation making this decision. I'm against a law / legal precedent in this area.

The thing is that apartment buildings generally share some sort of central heating / cooling system... smoke particles are very difficult to corral and its why smokers smell like smoke... because all these particles are clinging to everything they own. The walls, their clothes, their hair etc... While you could dramatically limit the smoke transmission through the duct work, you can't eliminate it without unreasonably expensive equipment. Also, there are more than enough "leaks" around your doors, between uninsulated walls, bathroom ducting etc to make elimianting leaks all but impossible. I would be fine with reasonable standards perhaps even including spray foam behind electrical outlets... but if your standard is no smoke from them can harm you, thats practically impossible.

Your apartment shouldn't smell like an ash tray, but if you open the patio door or front door and smell smoke... well thats something else.


Yes I agree with you. But as I said there were certain nights when I couldn't breath in the apartment because the smoke was so thick in it. I think that there should be a reasonable standard that apartment complexes should have to do. For example as a non-smoker all of my cloths should not smell of smoke all the time and I should be able to breath in my apartment w/o coughing. I don't mind smelling smoke if I open windows/doors etc because at that point that is my decision. BUt when my apartment is closed I should be able to expect a certain level of clean air.
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
kiryan
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Re: living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:09 pm

I'm going to assume the smoke was leaking into your apartment like a sieve. However there are people who go absolutely ballistic if a faint odor of smoke wiffs in through their open door.

Now consider what if you are severely sensitive to smoke, perhaps allergic? What might be reasonable for most would be a serious problem for you. Do you have a right to live comfortably in your apartment free from smoke despite being very very very sensitive?

Now forget smoke, take animals. I know a couple people who can walk into a house and immediately know a cat has lived there... even 5+ years in the past... even after EXTENSIVE cleaning including blowing out the ducts and replacing the carpet. They will break out into hives. Not sure about anaphaletic shock, but definitely major physical reactions. Should there be laws / regulation covering this to the same degree of rigidity as anti smoking ones?

How do you feel about bans on peanuts in the school... I'm not talking about no peanut based products in the lunch line, I mean literally the school district sends home a letter that says you can not bring any peanut derived product to school. I switched from ham to peanut butter, because they pissed me off that bad, but seriously...

Where does your rights to not be affected by my action and my rights to live a reasonably normal life unaffected by burdensome action to accomodate your rights begin/end??
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: living in an apartment is bad for you

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Well, people do have the right to emit some particles. Generally, the government establishes those particular standards.

You can't eliminate pollution or particulate matter.

And I'm pretty sure Pril's situation was a violation of human rights. It was like a cigarette factory on fire.
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