freedom of speech bullshit

Minimum moderation and heated debates.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kiryan » Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:03 pm

http://www.startribune.com/local/112474039.html

he said fuck and shit on a county bus and got a $500 ticket. Its a "quality of life issue". How about 2 gay men kissing in public, can that be a quality of life issue too?
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kindi » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:02 am

kiryan wrote: How about 2 gay men kissing in public, can that be a quality of life issue too?

don't worry, i'm sure several have been beaten to death for it
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Ragorn » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:30 pm

kiryan wrote:http://www.startribune.com/local/112474039.html

he said fuck and shit on a county bus and got a $500 ticket. Its a "quality of life issue". How about 2 gay men kissing in public, can that be a quality of life issue too?

I think it should be a quality of life issue... if you complain about it, you should get a $500 ticket :)
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:35 pm

lol, nice one.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:44 pm

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/weird/Teen-F ... 79844.html

She said SHIT in school and got a $340 ticket? What the fuk is wrong with people?

You can fine someone for offending you with language, but when they run around with their tits and ass hanging out of a bikini thats fine? Or making out groping each other in public?

If we can fine people for using impolite words, we should be able to fine people for impolite and offensive dress.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:19 pm

You can't wear a bikini to school either.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:01 pm

I'd say T&A or making out in public are less offensive than foul language, but I don't find foul language offensive either...
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:02 pm

Right because schools, the education system, which can tolerate all sorts of activist ideas and maintains its call for open dialogue of opposing views (which they really mean the right view vs the current view), can't tolerate the word shit.

fail
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:35 pm

kiryan wrote:Right because schools, the education system, which can tolerate all sorts of activist ideas and maintains its call for open dialogue of opposing views (which they really mean the right view vs the current view), can't tolerate the word shit.

fail

I'm curious to know how you plan to pin this on Obama. I don't know of many "liberal activists" who support obscenity laws, after all... that stuff almost universally comes from Family Values Conservatives.

I wonder what Dr. Dobson would say about nine year olds dropping F-bombs in public school?
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:15 pm

I find T&A more offensive, but thats probably because I have children that I don't want to be sexualized. Also, I consider swearing just impolite speech and I don't care if people think I'm impolite.

--

not everything is Obama's fault and really he's just the product of a liberal upbringing.

Dobson would surely agree there is a problem with kids swearing, but I assure you he wouldn't be supporting the police ticketing you for it.

Regardless of whether you know any liberals who are anti swearing, schools are a liberal stronghold and are very busy teaching the next generation how they are supposed to think and act.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:25 pm

Somebody needs to, since conservatives don't know how :)
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:20 am

kiryan wrote:I find T&A more offensive, but thats probably because I have children that I don't want to be sexualized.



You're going to have to take that up with God, Mother Nature, or thousands of years of evolution... depending on your belief system.

TV doesn't produce hormones.

(Actually, you could also put an argument in for the hormones and chemicals in our food, which have fairly well documented effects... but since you're against regulation that's pretty much just as much of an unstoppable force.)
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:41 am

you know last week you were claiming that environment is responsible for all human behavior, but apparently not when it comes to sex. thats all something else.
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:45 am

I would simply not pay the fine and fight it. I'm not sure how this would even fly in court. In a school system, yes, but that is because schools have become little countries of their own as far as population control.

And Kiryan, I wouldn't go calling schools liberal. Sure, they may be more in favor of teaching evolution over creationism or intelligent design, but that's because there is proof for the prior and none for the later. School is not a faith-based program, and even if you want to debate whether or not evolution is correct or not on the foundation of Hume's "who the fuck knows" principle, you'd still lose based on probability of correctness and occam's razor.

In my experience, schools are more conservative. Many schools prefer abstinence over birth control during sex ed discussions. Most schools don't allow cursing. Most schools confine the students to conservative, neutral opinion clothing. Most schools ban PDA. Most schools choose not to read Mark Twain due to language, Plato and other early greeks due to homosexuality, and Chaucer for adult content and language. Most schools are removing study hall (I would consider this a conservative move). The fact is, the only thing I can readily think of which would be more liberal leaning in a public school environment would be evolution over creationism; again, though, I would point that this is more of an intellectual debate that falls primarily within the realm of religion vs. science -- and since religion is not a subject in public schools and science is one of the core subjects, you would be arguing that they are liberal because they choose to be a school instead of a church, which is why there are private churches, err, schools.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:51 am

Kifle wrote:. Most schools are removing study hall (I would consider this a conservative move).


I don't follow...?
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:47 am

Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:. Most schools are removing study hall (I would consider this a conservative move).


I don't follow...?


The ol' ben franklin work ethic. Study hall has always been naptime through the mid day. It has been seen as unnecessary, even though it was a good time to get your homework done so you didn't have any after school. Instead of study hall, you now have to take more meaningless classes. Another reason is budget cutting; however, study hall monitors cost, to the best of my knowledge, about 10% less than a teacher, who, in high school, does virtually the same thing as a high school teacher -- babysit while giving little to know useful information with a low success rate of actually teaching anything.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:53 pm

My company provides online schooling for kids in grades K-12. We have someone on staff called an "outrage checker" whose sole job is to read the history/science books for things that extremist Christian/conservative families might find offensive.

/just sayin'
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:03 pm

can you get me a discount ragorn?

Kifle, I don't know if I agree. There are "conservative" acts such as you describe in school, but the overall view point in the classes that are subject to interpretation are overwhelmingly liberal. Math can't really be liberal and neither can most of the sciences, but literature, social studies, citzenship and all those types of classes are decidedly libearl. The administrations decisions tend to be liberal starting with which clubs to allow on campus.

I have recently been thinking about an article I read which complained of the rampant conservative views in college... specifically in teh school of economics. Its a valid charge, conservative economic theory dominates business colleges with little serious discussion of liberal economic views. Ultimately however, I would still call educational institutions liberal bastions.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:23 pm

kiryan wrote:can you get me a discount ragorn?

You don't want it. The entire cost of the education is subsidized by the state; you pull your kids out of public school, we get the funding that the school system would have gotten for your student being enrolled. The whole thing is reeks of socialist free education... you wouldn't be interested. Also, we teach evolution, and our science curriculum is intelligently designed to omit creationism. Students are not permitted to "opt out" of these units either, because content is mandated by state standards.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:12 pm

Oh so its like an online charter school? and you guys don't have separate products that you market to homeschoolers? Yea probably not somethign I'm interested in unless you can separate modules or at least work at your own speed.

and FYI, I teach my kids evolution. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean you can't learn it as well or better than a someone enthralled with their own gods of science.
Pril
Sojourner
Posts: 1834
Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:01 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Pril » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:06 pm

Kifle wrote:I would simply not pay the fine and fight it. I'm not sure how this would even fly in court. In a school system, yes, but that is because schools have become little countries of their own as far as population control.

And Kiryan, I wouldn't go calling schools liberal. Sure, they may be more in favor of teaching evolution over creationism or intelligent design, but that's because there is proof for the prior and none for the later. School is not a faith-based program, and even if you want to debate whether or not evolution is correct or not on the foundation of Hume's "who the fuck knows" principle, you'd still lose based on probability of correctness and occam's razor.

In my experience, schools are more conservative. Many schools prefer abstinence over birth control during sex ed discussions. Most schools don't allow cursing. Most schools confine the students to conservative, neutral opinion clothing. Most schools ban PDA. Most schools choose not to read Mark Twain due to language, Plato and other early greeks due to homosexuality, and Chaucer for adult content and language. Most schools are removing study hall (I would consider this a conservative move). The fact is, the only thing I can readily think of which would be more liberal leaning in a public school environment would be evolution over creationism; again, though, I would point that this is more of an intellectual debate that falls primarily within the realm of religion vs. science -- and since religion is not a subject in public schools and science is one of the core subjects, you would be arguing that they are liberal because they choose to be a school instead of a church, which is why there are private churches, err, schools.


The amusing thing is teachers of public schools here aren't allowed to teach either creationism or evolution. In fact they can't even say "evolution" in the classroom they can only elude to it.
The best of WTF statments of '06
--------------------------------------------------------
Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'
Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'
Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:42 pm

kiryan wrote:and FYI, I teach my kids evolution. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean you can't learn it as well or better than a someone enthralled with their own gods of science.

Oh I hear you. That's why I know the bible better than the vast majority of Christians. Oh... also, I've read it, so that puts me ahead of the curve.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:11 pm

Ragorn wrote:
kiryan wrote:and FYI, I teach my kids evolution. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean you can't learn it as well or better than a someone enthralled with their own gods of science.

Oh I hear you. That's why I know the bible better than the vast majority of Christians. Oh... also, I've read it, so that puts me ahead of the curve.


I've tried... I just... can't. Maybe if I skipped the whole "begat" section, but then I feel like I'm skipping ahead or something.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:35 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
kiryan wrote:and FYI, I teach my kids evolution. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean you can't learn it as well or better than a someone enthralled with their own gods of science.

Oh I hear you. That's why I know the bible better than the vast majority of Christians. Oh... also, I've read it, so that puts me ahead of the curve.


I've tried... I just... can't. Maybe if I skipped the whole "begat" section, but then I feel like I'm skipping ahead or something.


It's actually a pretty good book when you contextualize it with history and the society/customs of the times. Very interesting.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:47 pm

kiryan wrote:can you get me a discount ragorn?

Kifle, I don't know if I agree. There are "conservative" acts such as you describe in school, but the overall view point in the classes that are subject to interpretation are overwhelmingly liberal. Math can't really be liberal and neither can most of the sciences, but literature, social studies, citzenship and all those types of classes are decidedly libearl. The administrations decisions tend to be liberal starting with which clubs to allow on campus.

I have recently been thinking about an article I read which complained of the rampant conservative views in college... specifically in teh school of economics. Its a valid charge, conservative economic theory dominates business colleges with little serious discussion of liberal economic views. Ultimately however, I would still call educational institutions liberal bastions.


See, I don't see how literature would be considered liberal unless you are saying literal per se. Most of the great books of any time have been anti-establishment to some degree. It's hard to read dickens, paine, chaucer, shakespear, twain, wharton, james, etc. with a conservative view. Literature is prized, mainly, for what they spoke out against, especially in light of the times and how they had to skirt around overt attacks. I suppose you could argue that works from Dante are given the liberal treatment even though it is still conservative by our standards, but even that would be a stretch.

Social Studies, I suppose I agree to an extent, but then you also have the whitewashing and eurocentric garbage that's thrown in there too. Most social studies books these days don't even offer opinions anymore, granted, they are still to be found if you look hard enough. But, when you're dealing with American studies, they don't really demonize the settlers as they should with respect to the indians. They gloss over the revolution as if it were all fireworks and patriotism, which I find to be a more conservative treatment. Those books that have Hellen Keller in them omit that she was a socialist and was a part of the communist party. Reganonics is shed in a nice light. The cold war, and other issues surrounding communism are still shown in a negative light.

Conversely, there are other things that are more prone to the liberal standpoint -- such as how they view Clinton's administration, FDR's socialist programs, and JFk. At best, I would say the area of Social Studies is neutral outside of the teacher. And many schools will punish teachers if they stray too far from the material and offer too many opinions.

I've never heard of a citizenship course, but, if it does exist, it would be "liberal" by definition with respect to USA. The statue of liberty, ellis island, the original intent of the USA (regarding immigrants) all breed a sense of inclusion and forgiveness for people's fleeing their own countries regardless of motive (be it money, freedom, etc).

As far as college, I rarely found conservatism where I went. In fact, the only departments that conservatism was rampant were business and political science (including law). Even the dean had a philosophy phd. But, this is to be expected as most people go through a more "liberal" ideological phase from high school to college graduation. Many people never remove themselves from these ideological views, but most of us gather towards a more centrist view after we hit the real world.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:26 pm

Literature isn't in and of itself necessarily liberal, but it can be and often is used to push a liberal agenda. The same with social studies with the common "current events" sub curriculum. These are areas where there is a large amount of material, and teachers in general never pull from the conservative content except to mock it. They pull environmental issues, rights issues and nearly always while pushing their agenda. That was my experience, my wife's experience. That is my experience with my children and it follows inline with 99% of what i've observed casually through media.

I'm reading my wife's ethics books. Let me paraphrase the curriculum. You should give whatever you have in excess (over $30k for a family of 4) to those who are poorer... and you should be compelling government to force everyone to. You should not eat meat because you're basically committing racism against animals by believing your superior. There IS NO counter arguments. It is 20 chapters in 10 different books convincing you that these are the ONLY moral choices available. This is an ethics class required for EVERY SINGLE GRADUATE of the college. My wife's liberal friend almost got kicked out of the class last semester (like given an F and kicked out) for repeatedly "disrupting" class by challenging her arguments (this is a flaming liberal playing devil's advocate basically because no one would ever disagree with anything she ever said).

Despite that, I think its a good class, and I can't dispute the logic once you accept their basic laws of ethics, but its of little wonder why college grads become more liberal... You simply structure the basic laws to exclude the legitimacy of any opposing view.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:45 pm

kiryan wrote:You should not eat meat because you're basically committing racism against animals by believing your superior.

Doesn't the bible also tell you not to eat meat? Shellfish for sure, and pork. And the Catholic church eschews meat on Fridays during Lent to symbolize Jesus's sacrifice in the desert.

its of little wonder why college grads become more liberal...

Because the more exposure you have to a wide variety of opinions, the less likely you are to believe 2,000 year old mythology written by sheep herders in the Bronze Age?
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:33 pm

kiryan wrote:Literature isn't in and of itself necessarily liberal, but it can be and often is used to push a liberal agenda. The same with social studies with the common "current events" sub curriculum. These are areas where there is a large amount of material, and teachers in general never pull from the conservative content except to mock it. They pull environmental issues, rights issues and nearly always while pushing their agenda. That was my experience, my wife's experience. That is my experience with my children and it follows inline with 99% of what i've observed casually through media.


Literature that survives is liberal, at least the vast majority. In fact, I can't really think of one book that has survived which we consider a "classic" worth reading that is also of a conservative viewpoint, in the underlying themes that is. Most conservative literature is generally read during the times they were written, and forgotten about decades later -- unless it is being used as a historical teaching point. Think of it like this: how many books which are "classics" from the Victorian era aren't speaking out against conservative Victorian values? I can't name one; however, I do know there were tons of books written in the Victorian era which support the status quo. The same could be same for other ultra conservative eras such as the Middle Ages. What has survived from those times, in the conservative realm, have long lost their value with respect to teaching anybody anything except cultural perspective and what not to do; however, there are many books which have survived from the same time period which speak out against the Church, the monarchy, the political system, etc.

Current events, yeah, I could see that, but you shouldn't really expect this not to happen. Tea Party members in the media constantly make asses of themselves by spouting polarized shit, before Obama we had 8 years of the dumbest leader in the history of the world who poked the beehive which is the middle east, and Racism is still going strong through people like Pat Roberts, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and others. Put frankly, liberals have an edge-up because, not only do they stay away from mysticism, as Ragorn has pointed out, but they tend to garner the support of those with the weakest voice; and, because the conservatives push so hard to return to the idealized 50's (which are a myth to be honest, just look at the numbers), it forces the liberals into a hypercorrecting state in order to maintain a medium. I honestly think both sides are complete idiots, but one justifies, breeds, and sustains the other inadvertently.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:39 pm

kiryan wrote:I'm reading my wife's ethics books. Let me paraphrase the curriculum. You should give whatever you have in excess (over $30k for a family of 4) to those who are poorer... and you should be compelling government to force everyone to. You should not eat meat because you're basically committing racism against animals by believing your superior. There IS NO counter arguments. It is 20 chapters in 10 different books convincing you that these are the ONLY moral choices available. This is an ethics class required for EVERY SINGLE GRADUATE of the college. My wife's liberal friend almost got kicked out of the class last semester (like given an F and kicked out) for repeatedly "disrupting" class by challenging her arguments (this is a flaming liberal playing devil's advocate basically because no one would ever disagree with anything she ever said).


I'd really like to know what ethics course this is. Ethics, when taught by an actual university, by people who have at least a minute grasp of ethical structure, know that ethics is a subjective subject. What they are teaching there is Kantian categorical imperatives; however, that theory has been smashed to pieces long ago. The most updated, widely read ethical system today is based off of utilitarianism; however, the criticisms to that are mostly on a metaphysical arena rather than a practical one. The ethics class you are talking about is called church -- one right, everything else wrong. Hell, the 20th, and so for the 21st, century was dominated by relativistic ethical theories; which is as far of a departure as you can possibly fathom from Kantian categorical ethics.

Seriously, what fucking class is that, and what school? I honestly can't believe that it is real.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:42 pm

i agree with you on literature.

the point on the tea party is perfect. How balanced do you think the discussion of the "tea party" was in classes covering it as current events? The media coverage was decidedly leftist, why would we expect the democrats teaching our kids to be discussing it from any perspective other than the left? If they had covered it from the point of conservative principles, like they cover the Israel/palestine conflict from the perspective of the oppressed and occupied palestinians, then I'd have nothing to bitch about, but you know they don't. They take every current event and teach the liberal side of it.

... conservatives brought this on huh? What ignited the tea party? Healthcare reform. How bipartisian was this change, one that has the potential to beone of the most significant of our generation? How overwhelming was the support of the people for it (~50/50)? but somehow this is because conservatives said some outlandish things huh?

Come on kifle, your more honest than that.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:42 pm

i agree with you on literature.

the point on the tea party is perfect. How balanced do you think the discussion of the "tea party" was in classes covering it as current events? The media coverage was decidedly leftist, why would we expect the democrats teaching our kids to be discussing it from any perspective other than the left? If they had covered it from the point of conservative principles, like they cover the Israel/palestine conflict from the perspective of the oppressed and occupied palestinians, then I'd have nothing to bitch about, but you know they don't. They take every current event and teach the liberal side of it.

... conservatives brought this on huh? What ignited the tea party? Healthcare reform. How bipartisian was this change, one that has the potential to beone of the most significant of our generation? How overwhelming was the support of the people for it (~50/50)? but somehow this is because conservatives said some outlandish things huh?

Come on kifle, your more honest than that.
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kifle » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:13 am

kiryan wrote:i agree with you on literature.

the point on the tea party is perfect. How balanced do you think the discussion of the "tea party" was in classes covering it as current events? The media coverage was decidedly leftist, why would we expect the democrats teaching our kids to be discussing it from any perspective other than the left? If they had covered it from the point of conservative principles, like they cover the Israel/palestine conflict from the perspective of the oppressed and occupied palestinians, then I'd have nothing to bitch about, but you know they don't. They take every current event and teach the liberal side of it.

... conservatives brought this on huh? What ignited the tea party? Healthcare reform. How bipartisian was this change, one that has the potential to beone of the most significant of our generation? How overwhelming was the support of the people for it (~50/50)? but somehow this is because conservatives said some outlandish things huh?

Come on kifle, your more honest than that.


You have valid points, but, again, I think that there are many variables in the "current events" classrooms than you're not giving. For instance, the main outlet for conservative news is Fox. Fox has made itself a joke in order to maintain extreme conservative values. The news organization has become little more than a tabloid for racists, bigots, extremist christians, and good ol' boys. There is nothing on that station that reaches out to the middle ground -- because they don't want that. If there is a reason conservative news is less talked about, it's because the news is either so few and far between, or people have just gotten sick of trying to sift through the bullshit to get the actual facts. Facts have become so intertwined with opinion, be it in tone, word, or action, on Fox that some republicans refuse to watch it for news.

Sure, the liberal media does the same, but they are not nearly as blatant about it -- which can be a good or bad thing depending on your position. Of course we talk about the palestinian/israeli conflict in the light of palestinians -- because the palestinians are retaliating against the oppressor. Israel is the one that has robbed land, secured water plants, stopped shipments going into palestine. We don't try to put Kim Jong into a good light because he is a monster, why should we do it for Israel? Because it is the holy land? Because we have helped exacerbate the situation? Because we fund them? The tea party was not just ignited by healthcare, it was ignited because the conservative party prides itself on taking advantage of anger and hatred. They used a faltering economy, started and resulting from the Bush era, and to a slighter extent the clinton era, to attack a government that gladly jumped into a pile of shit knowing it was a pile of shit. Do I like Obama? Not too much. Would I like somebody else? Of course, if you read back, I disliked Obama from the start, and I was hoping Hillary (thus slick willy) would win the nomination. After she lost, I planned on voting for McCain until he let Sarah Palin on his team. After that, it was over, and I had no choice. I still think he is doing a much better job than McCain and Palin would have, and I don't know how you can disagree with me there. Even if Obama accomplishes nothing, it would have been better than the damage of McCain/Palin. But I digress.

Current events is spoken through the microphone which is less driven by hate; unfortunately, in this current era, the conservative party is driven by hate. And, before we call it political dissent, lets keep in mind that Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Washington, et al. were liberal minded (moved against much of what the republicans want socially, which was the backbone of their departure) and were some of the best thinkers of their time or any. The republicans have placed clowns on the stage and tout them as political activists sick of tyranny. They are trying to compare, again, explicitly, these clowns to our forefathers. In essence, they are attempting to compare Bill O'Reily to Thomas Jefferson. Which is just like saying I want to compare Ted Bundy to Mother Theresa with respect to their similarities in love for human life.

So, yes, there is a liberal slant to current event classes, but for good reason. You do not get your opinion taken seriously or liked simply because it is an opinion.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kiryan » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:03 am

I think we can find as many facts about blatant disregard for truth and hyper partisianship from the left as we can the right. I think its an entirely unfair criticism to say Fox is worse than other news organizations and its very dangerous for any thinking person to declare there is no credibility and no truth in what they report.

I just posted an article on Rachel Maddow. its pretty damn clear she searched "sarah palin" and "egypt" in google and took what she found (a bit of satire) and reported it as truth. And you want to talk about which side has better journalism? And lets not forget the 2008 campaign coverage where the liberal media was overwhelmingly portrayed Obama in a positive light then went negative after the election... Please justify that as fair and balanced coverage worthy of journalism excellence?

Regardless of this, acadamia is supposed to be a place where we honestly look at both sides... if they can't do that, then they can't pitch any of it because it would be academically dishonest to present just 1 side of a debate. But they aren't looking for both sides, they want to propagandize others with their view of the world. and you know it but continue apologizing for it anyway.
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kindi » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:37 am

i failed religion class twice in high school (private school) because i didn't believe that god really required me to do community service to prove myself to him and no one could explain to me why it was exactly 30 hours that god wanted
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:59 am

Kifle wrote:So, yes, there is a liberal slant to current event classes, but for good reason. You do not get your opinion taken seriously or liked simply because it is an opinion.

Yes, it appears you only get your opinion taken seriously by those who share it.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kifle » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:10 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:So, yes, there is a liberal slant to current event classes, but for good reason. You do not get your opinion taken seriously or liked simply because it is an opinion.

Yes, it appears you only get your opinion taken seriously by those who share it.


By and large, you're absolutely correct, but I think that is peripheral to the point I was making.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:52 am

Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:So, yes, there is a liberal slant to current event classes, but for good reason. You do not get your opinion taken seriously or liked simply because it is an opinion.

Yes, it appears you only get your opinion taken seriously by those who share it.


By and large, you're absolutely correct, but I think that is peripheral to the point I was making.

I toed that in because I thought your point doesn't really line up with reality. While you don't suggest what the "good reason" is for current event classes having a liberal slant, I'm suggesting that it may not be for any journalistic reason, or any virtue such as integrity...

Rather, what I mean is that the "good reason" might be that journalism is funded by people with a liberal slant - which is only a "good reason" in so many ways and lights.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kifle » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:49 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:So, yes, there is a liberal slant to current event classes, but for good reason. You do not get your opinion taken seriously or liked simply because it is an opinion.

Yes, it appears you only get your opinion taken seriously by those who share it.


By and large, you're absolutely correct, but I think that is peripheral to the point I was making.

I toed that in because I thought your point doesn't really line up with reality. While you don't suggest what the "good reason" is for current event classes having a liberal slant, I'm suggesting that it may not be for any journalistic reason, or any virtue such as integrity...

Rather, what I mean is that the "good reason" might be that journalism is funded by people with a liberal slant - which is only a "good reason" in so many ways and lights.


Granted. I suppose the point I'm trying to make there is that CE classes seem to be dictated more by political correctness these days rather than true journalism. The conservative end of the spectrum, at least the moral and radical versions, tend to be screaming the loudest lately, so I don't see them getting much chance in the system. Rocking the boat is generally something that is taught with hindsight rather than present vision. This may boil down to nobody wanting to side with the losing party, so they would rather espouse the "correct" or "safe" opinion or side -- which is the PC side, unfortunately.

Anyway, there are too many variables with current events to give a passing treatment as to the causes of teaching perspective. We can really only speculate. And speculation really wont lead us anywhere useful unless you are like me and enjoy the exploration rather than the destination.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:43 am

The theory I'm working with at the moment has those screaming the loudest because they've been systematically cut out. An ironically damaging reaction, but then again, so is rioting when things are bad and thus making them worse. Political correctness is definitely as you say it is, but I believe there other noteworthy factors that drive modern journalism.

First and foremost, that people get into journalism to change society, rather than inform it, particularly of things that journalists disagree with. Secondly, that journalism is self-selecting, much like any other human social organization, where the like-minded are singled out for success, promotion, and face time. Lastly, the economic factor drives journalists in the same way that money drives everyone else. What ends up being journalism is simply what sells.

Political correctness I don't believe to be strictly 'liberal,' as one could do the same when being respectful (or simply hedging bets about your conservative audience) about ideas such as creationism. I find the disease to be one of irony, where bravado is necessary to be controversial, yet humility is required to be effective.

Ideally, people would be politically correct while still presenting a convincing argument and making clear their point. It seems that it's far easier to do these things separately.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
kwirl
Sojourner
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby kwirl » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:08 am

nevermind
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kindi » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:27 pm

i wouldn't call any of what we have today "journalism"
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Corth » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:05 pm

Really? I think we are in a bit of a golden age of journalism. We are witnessing the emergence of a whole class of citizenship journalist on a scale that never could have been imagined before the internet age. As for the professionals.. well, there are both gossip mongers and also serious people who expend enormous effort at their craft... just as there were a hundred years ago and earlier.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Kindi
Sojourner
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kindi » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:32 pm

Corth wrote:Really? I think we are in a bit of a golden age of journalism.

i wonder if they called the bronze age the golden age while they were living in it
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:49 pm

Kindi wrote:
Corth wrote:Really? I think we are in a bit of a golden age of journalism.

i wonder if they called the bronze age the golden age while they were living in it


Depends, had they invented gold yet? ;)
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: freedom of speech bullshit

Postby Kifle » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:29 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Kindi wrote:
Corth wrote:Really? I think we are in a bit of a golden age of journalism.

i wonder if they called the bronze age the golden age while they were living in it


Depends, had they invented gold yet? ;)


To my knowledge, gold wasn't invented, it was found :)
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"

Return to “Current Events & Politics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest