Moderate/Mainstream Islam

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Corth
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Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:20 pm

LAHORE, Pakistan — More than 500 Muslim scholars are praising the man suspected of killing a Pakistani governor because the politician opposed blasphemy laws that mandate death for those convicted of insulting Islam.

The group of scholars and clerics known as Jamat Ahle Sunnat is affiliated with a moderate school of Islam and represents the mainstream Barelvi sect.

The group said in a statement Wednesday that no one should pray for Punjab province Gov. Salman Taseer or express regret for his murder. One of his security guards is the suspected killer.

The statement also made a veiled threat against Taseer's supporters: "The supporter is as equally guilty as one who committed blasphemy."



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40923917/ns ... tral_asia/
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby kiryan » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:32 pm

You beat me to it.

Imagine if someone assassinated a mayor or governor or even a CEO of an evil wall street corporation in the USA... and literally a thousand college professors across the USA came out cheering and dancing in the streets over it.

Imagine if the abortion doc killer had been celebrated as a hero by 1,000 Christian pastors?

Actually, imagine that he hadn't killed an abortion doctor performing and applying the most liberal abortion standard in the land and instead was a moderate abortion doctor who sometimes counseled against and sometimes for...

Because thats what you have here, a "moderate" politician was murdered and 500 islamic scholars are supporting and celebrating his death.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:43 pm

Too bad they didn't just pray for his death like Pat Robertson would have: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lyn-lear/ ... _6995.html

Kiryan: I'm more than willing to bet there WERE thousands of Christians celebrating your "abortion doc killer."

In fact here you go: http://evolvinginkansas.blogspot.com/20 ... ng-dr.html

Unfortunately the "Army of God" website seems to have been taken down. Could have been some instructive reading!
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:06 pm

The difference is that the fringe radical pastors you are referring to are exactly that: fringe and radical, whereas the Muslim scholars described in this article are considered moderate and mainstream.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:17 pm

Corth wrote:The difference is that the fringe radical pastors you are referring to are exactly that: fringe and radical, whereas the Muslim scholars described in this article are considered moderate and mainstream.


Pat Robertson is fringe?

Let's talk about what's really being shown: Outspoken groups. There are probably hundreds or thousands of small, no-name pastors around the country celebrating the death of abortion doctors. We just don't hear about them on the news.

Your article claims this group is "mainstream" but there are millions of Islamic people out there... what makes these 500 people mainstream?
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:35 pm

kiryan wrote:Imagine if the abortion doc killer had been celebrated as a hero by 1,000 Christian pastors?

What do you mean, "imagine?" I don't need to imagine. You guys made fun of a war hero for being injured in the line of duty, and used ridicule of his military service as a campaign platform.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:36 pm

Also, I'll just leave this here:

http://www.leftbehind.com/

Isn't that the series where God's chosen stay on earth after the rapture and murder unbelievers?
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby kiryan » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:23 pm

I dont know anything about left behind, but it sounds interesting. a perversion of course, but interesting. There is a line of biblical theology that says the Earth will be remade into a paradise and Jesus basically comes back to lead the purge. Muhammed tied into that with his teachings.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Ragorn » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:02 pm

In this thread, kiryan denounces 500 Muslims cheering for the murder of a politican, then calls the idea of a fictional world where Christians are called by Jesus to murder unbelievers "interesting."

It's only barbaric when they do it.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:15 pm

Interesting like the Da Vinci code dipshit.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:19 pm

You still find it interesting, and there are others who actually want to bring it about. There are supposedly politicians who want to bring this about.

But sure, we're a "peaceful" culture.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Ragorn » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:28 pm

kiryan wrote:Interesting like the Da Vinci code dipshit.

Interesting like a best-selling novel that was then turned into a major motion picture?

Or interesting like "that's repugnant and I condemn the authors and the people who find that kind of filth enjoyable?"

I guess both could apply to The Da Vinci Code ;)
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:23 pm

Ragorn wrote:In this thread, kiryan denounces 500 Muslims cheering for the murder of a politican, then calls the idea of a fictional world where Christians are called by Jesus to murder unbelievers "interesting."

It's only barbaric when they do it.

Interestingly enough, mainstream Islam has nearly the same views as Christians on Jesus Christ. The only thing they really take issue with is a disbelief in the resurrection (they believe JC was ascended to the heavens ALIVE). Even the muslims believe that JC is going to come back near the end times and destroy the false prophet (read as: anti-christ).
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:58 pm

Whatever parallels that the liberals in this thread are trying to draw between islam and christianity in this thread are idiotic. When someone is murdered in a modern western country for religious reasons, either by a Christian or a Muslim, they are almost UNIVERSALLY condemnned. When someone is murdered in a modern islamic country by a muslim seeking to uphold muslim values, they are CELEBRATED.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Ragorn » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:00 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 09925.html

President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.

Waiting for you to start condemning him. "God told me to do it" is perfectly acceptable to Christians, when it's the Christian god telling a Christian to kill non-Christians. Or, you could replace "Christians" in that sentence with "Muslims" and it would be just as applicable.

I know you think I'm anti-Christianity and pro-Muslim. I think you forget that I'm not anti-Christianity, I'm anti-religion. I think you're all fucking nuts. I think you're all violent and self-absorbed and absolutely convinced of both your own sainthood and the absolute corruption of anyone who doesn't worship the same invisible man that you do. You hate them because you think their customs are barbaric and yours are civilized. Ironically, they hate you because they think your customs are barbaric and theirs are civilized. You scream because they force their women to wear burqas. They scream because you let your women run around half-naked. You get mad because they want to build a mosque near Ground Zero. They get mad because you hold public rituals where you burn their holy book. You both think that THE OTHER GUY is the only one commiting atrocities in the name of their god. You both point at each other and go "See? They're CLEARLY corrupt. We MUST protect ourselves from their influence."

You're all wrong, and you're all acting like idiots.

I honestly don't give a fuck what magical cloud wizard you want to talk to. I want all of you to be able to worship your respective gods or goddesses in relative peace. Leave each other alone, leave me alone, and for the love of all that is good and holy, stop pretending that the followers of your own religion are all good and peaceful and loving, and the followers of everyone else's religion are all vile and filthy and barbaric. You are all EQUALLY FUCKED UP. Every time you point out some crazy Muslim who does something stupid, I'll just point you at some crazy Christian who does something stupid. And all you can say about it is "oh, that guy's a lunatic, but ALL Muslims are lunatics." No they're not. No more than all Christians are. About 90% of you are pretty cool in both cases, and you all have your kooky wingnuts who blow shit up and generally cause a ruckus.

You guys are all the same.

You even worship the same fucking god.

Get over yourselves. Your religion is not special, and neither are its followers.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:24 pm

Corth wrote:Whatever parallels that the liberals in this thread are trying to draw between islam and christianity in this thread are idiotic. When someone is murdered in a modern western country for religious reasons, either by a Christian or a Muslim, they are almost UNIVERSALLY condemnned. When someone is murdered in a modern islamic country by a muslim seeking to uphold muslim values, they are CELEBRATED.


Universally except for the examples we've prevented otherwise, right?
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:26 pm

Ragorn wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html

President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.

Waiting for you to start condemning him. "God told me to do it" is perfectly acceptable to Christians, when it's the Christian god telling a Christian to kill non-Christians. Or, you could replace "Christians" in that sentence with "Muslims" and it would be just as applicable.

I know you think I'm anti-Christianity and pro-Muslim. I think you forget that I'm not anti-Christianity, I'm anti-religion. I think you're all fucking nuts. I think you're all violent and self-absorbed and absolutely convinced of both your own sainthood and the absolute corruption of anyone who doesn't worship the same invisible man that you do. You hate them because you think their customs are barbaric and yours are civilized. Ironically, they hate you because they think your customs are barbaric and theirs are civilized. You scream because they force their women to wear burqas. They scream because you let your women run around half-naked. You get mad because they want to build a mosque near Ground Zero. They get mad because you hold public rituals where you burn their holy book. You both think that THE OTHER GUY is the only one commiting atrocities in the name of their god. You both point at each other and go "See? They're CLEARLY corrupt. We MUST protect ourselves from their influence."

You're all wrong, and you're all acting like idiots.

I honestly don't give a fuck what magical cloud wizard you want to talk to. I want all of you to be able to worship your respective gods or goddesses in relative peace. Leave each other alone, leave me alone, and for the love of all that is good and holy, stop pretending that the followers of your own religion are all good and peaceful and loving, and the followers of everyone else's religion are all vile and filthy and barbaric. You are all EQUALLY FUCKED UP. Every time you point out some crazy Muslim who does something stupid, I'll just point you at some crazy Christian who does something stupid. And all you can say about it is "oh, that guy's a lunatic, but ALL Muslims are lunatics." No they're not. No more than all Christians are. About 90% of you are pretty cool in both cases, and you all have your kooky wingnuts who blow shit up and generally cause a ruckus.

You guys are all the same.

You even worship the same fucking god.

Get over yourselves. Your religion is not special, and neither are its followers.





QFT.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:26 pm

Ragorn wrote:Get over yourselves. Your religion is not special, and neither are its followers.

Image
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:42 am

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:Whatever parallels that the liberals in this thread are trying to draw between islam and christianity in this thread are idiotic. When someone is murdered in a modern western country for religious reasons, either by a Christian or a Muslim, they are almost UNIVERSALLY condemnned. When someone is murdered in a modern islamic country by a muslim seeking to uphold muslim values, they are CELEBRATED.


Universally except for the examples we've prevented otherwise, right?


No, not right. Anyone who is cheering on an abortion doctor killer is considered a fringe asshole by the vast majority of Americans. Whereas, in places like Pakistan, the MODERATES are cheering for the guy who killed a politican that wanted to outlaw a blaspheme law.

You are simply an apologist for thuggish behavior committed in the name of the Islam (as opposed to Christianity). Irony!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:07 am

Corth wrote:No, not right. Anyone who is cheering on an abortion doctor killer is considered a fringe asshole by the vast majority of Americans. Whereas, in places like Pakistan, the MODERATES are cheering for the guy who killed a politican that wanted to outlaw a blaspheme law.


500 people is the majority of Islamics? Just because an article says they are moderate and mainstream does not mean they are.

You are simply an apologist for thuggish behavior committed in the name of the Islam (as opposed to Christianity). Irony!


Drawing a comparison is apologizing? Seriously Corth, I normally expect better from you.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Kindi » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:17 pm

"Dan Lohwasser, a reporter for United Press International, was one of the observers who witnessed Gray's execution. Lohwasser's account of Gray's death sparked a controversy, because of its graphic nature. At the time of Gray's execution, the gas chamber used in Mississippi had a vertical iron bar directly behind the inmate's chair. There was no headrest or strap used to restrain Gray's head. As Gray began breathing in the toxic gas, he started thrashing his head around, striking the iron bar repeatedly before he finally lost consciousness. Officials decided to clear the observation room eight minutes after the gas was released, due to the graphic scene. The decision to clear the room was sharply criticized by Dennis Balske, Gray's attorney. "Jimmy Lee Gray died banging his head against a steel pole in the gas chamber while reporters counted his moans (eleven, according to the Associated Press)". It was ultimately revealed that the executioner was drunk during the procedure."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Lee_Gray

""At 8:30 p.m. the first jolt of 1,900 volts of electricity passed through Mr. Evans's body. It lasted thirty seconds. Sparks and flames erupted from the electrode tied to Mr. Evans's left leg. His body slammed against the straps holding him in the electric chair and his fist clenched permanently. The electrode apparently burst from the strap holding it in place. A large puff of greyish smoke and sparks poured out from under the hood that covered Mr. Evans's face. An overpowering stench of burnt flesh and clothing began pervading the witness room. Two doctors examined Mr. Evans and declared that he was not dead."
"The electrode on the left leg was refastened. At 8:30 p.m. [sic] Mr. Evans was administered a second thirty-second jolt of electricity. The stench of burning flesh was nauseating. More smoke emanated from his leg and head. Again, the doctors examined Mr. Evans. The doctors reported that his heart was still beating, and that he was still alive."
"At that time, I asked the prison commissioner, who was communicating on an open telephone line to Governor George Wallace to grant clemency on the grounds that Mr. Evans was being subjected to cruel and unusual punishment. The request for clemency was denied."
"At 8:40 p.m., a third charge of electricity, thirty seconds in duration, was passed through Mr. Evans's body. At 8:44, the doctors pronounced him dead. The execution of John Evans took fourteen minutes.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Louis_Evans

"His hanging was the first use of hanging for an execution in the United States since George York and James Latham were hanged by Kansas in 1965. His execution was witnessed by 12 members of local and regional media, prison officials, and representatives of the families of the three victims. He ate salmon and potatoes for his last meal. His last words, spoken from the second floor of the indoor gallows, were recorded by the media witnesses as:
“ I was once asked by somebody, I don't remember who, if there was any way sex offenders could be stopped. I said, `No.' I was wrong. I was wrong when I said there was no hope, no peace. There is hope. There is peace. I found both in the Lord, Jesus Christ. Look to the Lord, and you will find peace."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley_Allan_Dodd

i asked the questions before, but nobody answered.

are you for or against execution?

are you for or against execution by stoning? (what about hanging, beheading, electrocution, stone press, burning, breaking on the wheel, hanging in chains, firing squad, or bludgeoning?)

are you for or against execution of women?

are you for or against adultery being a crime?

because conflating these issues activates all the right emotions (protect the innocent, vulnerable women!) but for damn sure doesn't provide logical thought as to what else you're letting slip by
Last edited by Kindi on Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:24 pm

Umm... none of these guys were executed for adultery? I think that last part weakens your point a little.

The stories of those executions, however, does shed light on our "peaceful" culture regardless of what their crimes were. Seriously, doesn't the guillotine at least seem less tortuous?
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:35 pm

That and that these three short examples are decades old and no longer possible due to reforms in legislation.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:09 pm

No, Sarvis, I did not characterize the 500 'moderate' scholars who supported the political assassination as the actual majority of muslims. I characterized them as representative of the majority of muslims. You are obviously misrepresenting my position - which I suppose is all that you can do to deflect considering that your position is indefensible.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:31 pm

Corth wrote:No, Sarvis, I did not characterize the 500 'moderate' scholars who supported the political assassination as the actual majority of muslims. I characterized them as representative of the majority of muslims. You are obviously misrepresenting my position - which I suppose is all that you can do to deflect considering that your position is indefensible.


Oh how cute. What do you think my position is, then?

If you want a pretty good hint, read Ragorn's post. As usual, he just said it better than I did.

For the record, I don't have any reason to believe that your 500 Muslims are any more representative of Muslims in general than I have to believe Pat Robertson and the 700 Club are representative of Christians in general.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:05 am

Sarvis wrote:For the record, I don't have any reason to believe that your 500 Muslims are any more representative of Muslims in general than I have to believe Pat Robertson and the 700 Club are representative of Christians in general.


The group of scholars and clerics known as Jamat Ahle Sunnat is affiliated with a moderate school of Islam and represents the mainstream Barelvi sect.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40923917/ns ... tral_asia/

India Today estimates that the vast majority of Muslims in India adhere to the Barelvi movement,[7] and The Times (UK) writes that a majority of (South Asian) Muslims in the United Kingdom adhere to the movement as well.[8] Similarly, the conservative think tank The Heritage Foundation gives such estimates for the vast majority of Sunni Muslims in Pakistan.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barelvi

Feel better about their mainstream credentials now?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:34 pm

Ragorn wrote:I know you think I'm anti-Christianity and pro-Muslim.


I think that people who try to defend the terrorists by apologizing on their behalf or immediately bringing up the Crusades as a counter-example are, yes. The bottom-line is that somehow you see Christianity as having hurt you in some way, possibly subconsciously, possibly not. There is an underlying anger towards Christianity, and not towards Islam. Plus, it is considered more Liberal to attack Christianity and defend Islam. So yes.

Ragorn wrote:I think you're all violent and self-absorbed and absolutely convinced of both your own sainthood and the absolute corruption of anyone who doesn't worship the same invisible man that you do. You hate them because you think their customs are barbaric and yours are civilized.


No, I don't hate the little tribes living in the jungles of Central America. They are uncivilized by our terms, but they are not barbaric. They don't blow up crowds of civilians, they don't stone women, they don't...many things.

Ragorn wrote:You scream because they force their women to wear burqas. They scream because you let your women run around half-naked.


So let's see. They force their women to wear something, or they get stoned. We let our women wear what they want. If they don't, we call them sluts. No stoning, etc.

Ragorn wrote:I want all of you to be able to worship your respective gods or goddesses in relative peace. Leave each other alone, leave me alone, and for the love of all that is good and holy, stop pretending that the followers of your own religion are all good and peaceful and loving, and the followers of everyone else's religion are all vile and filthy and barbaric.


Hey, so do I. Except I don't constantly post criticisms of atheists, right? You're not the one constantly defending your (non)beliefs right? I don't see society criticizing atheists in Saturday Night Live or on CNN. We haven't created the FSM to try and humiliate those that believe different, have we?


You're over-generalizing Ragorn. And you're trying to be the martyr of righteousness, the all-knowing Liberal who knows what's right and how everyone else is wrong. "WE are all EQUALLY FUCKED UP", except for you and your ilk (QFT Sarvis). So you're doing exactly the same thing you're criticizing others as doing. Gotcha.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:53 pm

The shooting this morning in Arizona will illustrate the difference in cultures between the largely Judeo-Christian US and Muslim Pakistan. The killer, who is in custody, will be condemnned by even the most fringe politicians. There will not be anything resembling a mainstream group cheering his acts.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Kindi » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:54 pm

not publicly anyway.

i think the main difference is media savvy
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:16 pm

Judeo Christian values have shown themselves throught history. A history of war, murder, torture and slavery. The difference in out culture is:

1) Separation of Church and State
2) The mix of multiple cultures

Primarily #1 though.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Kindi » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:19 pm

but that's in the past. and the past can't affect the present because it's in the past lol
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:56 am

Kindi wrote:not publicly anyway.

i think the main difference is media savvy


Assuming what you say is true (which I don't believe) -

In Pakistan, the majority religious sect is publically in favor of assassinating politicians who disagree with their political / religious views.

In the US people who hold fringe political and religious views are 'media savvy' and keep quiet, even if they are in favor of murdering people who don't agree with them. Presumably because the public would condemn them if they publically supported murder.

Conclusion: Even if you are correct that some people on the political and religious fringe are privately happy that this Congresswoman was shot, the fact that they have to keep quiet about it (because the public wouldn't accept such views) demonstrates the moral superiority of the West over Islamic countries.

The basic difference - In Pakistan, a politican is murdered and a substantial percentage of the people (if not a majority) publically celebrate. In the US, a politician is murdered and anyone who hypothetically supports such a thing is keeping quiet about it. Granted I'm sure if you look hard enough you will find a few scattered nutsacks in the US that celebrate this event. But in Pakistan most of the country are nutsacks.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Ragorn » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:51 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Hey, so do I. Except I don't constantly post criticisms of atheists, right? You're not the one constantly defending your (non)beliefs right? I don't see society criticizing atheists in Saturday Night Live or on CNN. We haven't created the FSM to try and humiliate those that believe different, have we?

You're over-generalizing Ragorn. And you're trying to be the martyr of righteousness, the all-knowing Liberal who knows what's right and how everyone else is wrong. "WE are all EQUALLY FUCKED UP", except for you and your ilk (QFT Sarvis). So you're doing exactly the same thing you're criticizing others as doing. Gotcha.

Liberal is a political belief. Atheism is a religious belief. I know you hate liberals and you use the term as an epithet, but you should reconsider your choice of words because it looks like you don't quite know who to be angry at.

I'm right because I believe in religious equality, a right bestowed upon us by the Constitution. I believe that you're welcome to hang the Ten Commandments up in a courthouse if you want, but when you do, you lose the right to complain about someone putting up their own religious laws right alongside. I don't think you get the right to complain about who builds a house of worship, or where they build it. What's good for you is good for Muslims, Wiccans, Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, atheists, Hindus, and Satanists. I think you (we) should all get the same rights and protections under the law, because that's what the Constitution states. Some Christians agree. Most don't. Most think "religious freedom" means "I'm free to practice my religion however I want, and I'm also free from having to witness you practicing yours." Some Christians believe we're a Christian country. Some believe we should be. Most would never dream of voting for an elected official who belongs to a different religion.

Why do I come across as anti-Christian? Because there are plenty of Christians here valiantly carrying the flag for Jesus, but there aren't any Muslims posting on this board defending all the silly traditions their religion upholds. I think burqas are stupid. If someone were posting pro-Muslim threads on the board trying to call my girlfriend a whore for not wearing a burqa, I'd be ripping on his religion too. But there's not, so here we are. Also, you think I'm anti-Christian because Christians love to feel persecuted in general. Oh noes, the bag boy in Target wished you a happy holiday. It's a War on Christmas! Oh god, Matt Groening (who is a Christian himself) pokes fun at Christians in his cartoons! Librul media!

I dislike most organized religions equally. I have a soft spot for Buddhists, because those guys don't really give a fuck what anyone else says or does, and that's a message I can really get behind. But back to my point, your religion isn't special. You're not being persecuted. And I'm no more anti-Christian than I am anti-anything else.
Last edited by Ragorn on Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Kindi » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:08 pm

actually Ragorn, Eastern buddhism is some pretty messed up crap compared to the watered down, vague, generalized Western buddhism, and nonviolence only works if nobody wants to hurt you. force is the ultimate arbiter
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Kindi » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:16 pm

Corth wrote:The basic difference - In Pakistan, a politican is murdered and a substantial percentage of the people (if not a majority) publically celebrate. In the US, a politician is murdered and anyone who hypothetically supports such a thing is keeping quiet about it. Granted I'm sure if you look hard enough you will find a few scattered nutsacks in the US that celebrate this event. But in Pakistan most of the country are nutsacks.

not sure. i think if we understood the context (who the ppl were, what they represent, what they were saying) rather than what western ppl see looking in (wikipedia entry says they're popular! ("Pat Robertson, of the Protestant sect, one of the most popular sects in America") they have titles of authority! ("Pat Robertson, who ran for presidential office") they say bad things! (i've heard "death to" is a common phrase over there with a more mundane aspect to it, that when stuck in a traffic jam, you say "death to traffic")) then it wouldn't seem as bad.

but i don't know enough to know if that's the case here so you could certainly be right. i just wish there was some kind of organization who was devoted to searching out facts, vetting them for truth, and putting them in context to provide meaningful information.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:04 am

Yes - an official truth agency. That is what we need!

I can support wishing death upon traffic. I hate traffic. I'm going to have to start doing that. :)

Oh yeah, but besides mundanely wishing death upon people and things, they actually do run around killing people for their beliefs. Not quite as mundane. But libs love 'em anyway.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Kindi » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:45 am

i was sarcastically commenting on the poor state of journalism. and your comments come across as "if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists"

note: more than one set of people can be wrong at the same time. you're wrong for fearing ALL muslims, and muslim extremists are wrong for being extreme, killing ppl, all kinds of wrong.

what i love is human life. and i don't want you nuking the entire middle east just to clear up your fear of ppl who are different, just like i don't want them flying planes into buildings.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:52 am

Rather than address my position, you resort to ad hominen attacks against me and my 'fear' of all Muslims, and imply that I would like to see them killed.

The simple point I attempted to make in this thread, which I believe is now established, is that the values adopted by the majority in Pakistan are barbaric and morally inferior to the values we are accustomed to in the West.

Since you are unable to come up with any legitimate arguments justifying this barbarism, but still cling to your faith in moral relativism, your only option is to attack my credibility. Unless you have something interesting to say at this point I think we basically are done here.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Kindi » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:27 pm

i think their morals need updating, and that ours are better (NOT a moral relativist). see what i mean about nuance? when we get down to core statements, it's easy to agree on some things. i think you'd also agree we're not perfect, and could do with some improving ourselves. not as much as them, of course.

i disagree that they're "barbaric" - i just watched a show on the Middle Ages (history channel) and it really showed a world i can't even comprehend.

"There was one Viking, nicknamed the Child-Friend, because he wouldn't kill children, which the other Vikings found hilarious." ~historian dude

i think they're better than barbarians, but worse than us. it's a sliding scale, with a direct arrow of improvement
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:32 pm

Wow - surprised by your first sentence. Starts off typical computer geek style: They just need a firmware update.. but at least makes a judgment that one set of values is superior to another.

You have just placed yourself slightly ahead of Sarvis and behind Ragorn on the reasonable lefty ranking of this bbs. :) Kifle still leads!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:13 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:I think that people who try to defend the terrorists by apologizing on their behalf or immediately bringing up the Crusades as a counter-example are, yes.


Jesus Christ. Get it through your head: WE ARE NOT APOLOGIZING FOR THEIR ACTIONS!

The comparison to the Crusades or Inquisition is incredibly valid. What were the conditions back then for Europe? The Church was incredibly powerful, faith was very strong and uniform across the population, and Government and Church were closely tied together.

Almost exactly the same conditions as exist in the Middle East right now.

Yet you expect different behavior somehow?

Ragorn is very clearly condemning BOTH their behavior AND yours. That is not apologizing for anyone, it's saying everyone sucks. You even quoted me on that, yet accuse me of apologizing?

Get over it. Get over thinking we are the enemy. Get over thinking they are the enemy. There are no enemies, only people trying to get by in the world.

"Compassion will cure more sins than condemnation." - Henry Ward Beecher

No, I don't hate the little tribes living in the jungles of Central America. They are uncivilized by our terms, but they are not barbaric. They don't blow up crowds of civilians, they don't stone women, they don't...many things.


Except for the ones who mutilate women's genitals, and the ones who take "brides" by kidnapping them from other tribes, and the ones you probably don't know about that do stone women. (I'm making an assumption on that last one, but I'm sure somewhere some tribe does something just as horrific.)

You hate Muslims because a few of them bombed you and Conservatives have been exploiting that for a decade.

Other than that, again... what Ragorn said.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:22 pm

Corth wrote:Wow - surprised by your first sentence. Starts off typical computer geek style: They just need a firmware update.. but at least makes a judgment that one set of values is superior to another.

One of the concepts I've often heard from Christian Americans is the idea of the "moral compass." The idea that morality is objectively fixed, like the North Star, and we should be trying to set our own behavior by it. I know that Christians use the bible as their moral compass, and that morality is defined as "god's law in the bible" and that's all there is to it. You either act according to biblical values, or you don't. It gets a little dicey when you point out that "biblical morality" changes depending on which book or Testament you're looking at, the idea makes sense.

For a while, I disagreed with the idea that morality could be so objective. Without a religion, I have no codified set of holy laws with which to align myself, and am left to decide my own moral code. Some Christians like to believe that atheists have no morals because we don't believe the bible, but that's just silly. Everyone has morals. For the most part, I subscribe to the idea of moral relativism. It's ok to kill another human being, sometimes. It's ok to lie, in certain cases. Sometimes it's ok to steal. I try to set up consistent rules for my morality, but every so often someone catches me in a contradiction. Then I have to examine how I feel, and maybe change my position so I can be more consistent. I view that process, the ability to update my moral code based on new information or circumstances, to be an extremely positive thing.

But I'm coming around to the idea that there are certain aspects of morality which might be objective. Certain... let's call them "inalienable, self-evident truths" that I believe everyone should align themselves with. First and foremost of these objective truths is that every human is fundamentally equal, should be treated equally, and has a certain set of inalienable rights. If I thought about it, I could probably write out a list of these rights (as I see them). Every person should be free to observe and practice the religion of his choice. Every person should be able to pursue happiness in his own manner. Every person should be able to fall in love and spend his life with the mate of his choosing.

This concept of equal rights for every person drives a lot of my moral and political views. Unfortunately, it puts me at odds with most religious groups. For example, Christianity preaches that Christians should be compassionate, but it also teaches that certain acts are "sins," and people who commit them are "sinners" who deserve to be punished. The bible condemns homosexuality, so Christians believe that homosexuality is a sinful act that should not be permitted. In America, they try to pass legislation that would make it illegal for homosexuals to marry, adopt children, share power of attorney, or enjoy many of the other benefits granted to heterosexual married couples. And this is where we're at odds. I think gay people should be allowed to marry whoever they like, and enjoy all the same legal and economic benefits as a heterosexual couple.

Let's be clear - I don't agree with discriminatory legislation, but American Christians certainly go about it better than most religious groups in most countries. At least here we don't beat them, torture them, or kill them (most of the time). It's a step above most countries, but it's a step below where it should be.

In my mind, a large part of "progressivism" is moving toward equality for all people. And for the most part, I see religion in America as being a roadblock to achieving that equality, because most religions don't believe in universal equality. Most religions want everyone to be a part of their religion; they want their religious laws to be social laws, they want their religion to be favored and other religions to be silenced, and they want to be free to discriminate against the classes of people that their holy books tell them deserve punishment. Christians and Muslims both fall into this category. So do many other religions, but the Judeo-Christian sects are the ones who are most prominent in America, so they're the ones who get the lion's share of my attention. I have a lot of opinions about the caste system in India too, but y'know, the fact that they're ten thousand miles away means I don't get as worked up about it as I do about gay marriage amendments.

I hope to install a firmware upgrade in our country, because some sets of values are better than others. I take comfort in knowing that America is slowly moving toward equality and away from discrimination. First we granted suffrage to women, then civil rights to minorities. Next will be gay marriage in 50 states. I may live to see that, or I may not. But each generation is more progressive and less religious than the one before it, so I feel like we're doing well. Our moral compass is set in the right direction.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:03 pm

Ragorn,

I can't argue with anything you just said. I am also in favor of equality. Which means religious equality exactly as you described. And also, economic equality. For instance, I don't think it's fair to tax some people at a higher rate than others.

But getting back to the point at hand in this thread.. Without you having expressly articulated that you believe in certain 'inalienable self-evident truths' until now, from what you have written in the past it has been pretty clear that you are not a moral relativist in the same way that Sarvis is. So there is hope for you yet! You haven't quite gone as far as Kindi but I think that is mostly out of stubbornness. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:18 pm

Corth wrote:Ragorn,

I can't argue with anything you just said. I am also in favor of equality. Which means religious equality exactly as you described. And also, economic equality. For instance, I don't think it's fair to tax some people at a higher rate than others.

But getting back to the point at hand in this thread.. Without you having expressly articulated that you believe in certain 'inalienable self-evident truths' until now, from what you have written in the past it has been pretty clear that you are not a moral relativist in the same way that Sarvis is. So there is hope for you yet! You haven't quite gone as far as Kindi but I think that is mostly out of stubbornness. :)


I'm only a "moral relativist" in that I expect people to pretty much always find an excuse to be shitty to other people. I don't think any religion makes for a particularly great set of morals, except maybe Wicca which just says "Don't be shitty to each other." Of course, I wouldn't be surprised to find some Christians burning Wiccans (aka witches) at the stake if they thought they could get away with it so... well, there you go.


My biggest objections in all of this are to the idea that we can bomb them into having a more peaceful culture. To me that doesn't make us much different than them. Sure, we call it a mistake and apologize when we hit a schoolhouse instead of an Al Qaeda installation... but the reality is that it's just acceptable losses and no one really cares.

Like I said, the superiority in our culture comes from both the limits we place on religion and the mix of cultures. It's hard to hate people you see every day at work. There were practically wars as each group of immigrants came over, got stuck in their own territory and then fought each other. There are still wars between gangs in some areas of the US. Christianity has not saved us from that, nor will it.

I think there's a reason the Conservatives both tend to be more religious AND more likely to call for war. I think there's a reason that Liberals tend to be more "spiritual" and argue against war.

I also think that if you want to change the culture of a people, you can't do it at the tip of a sword.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:45 pm

Corth wrote:But getting back to the point at hand in this thread.. Without you having expressly articulated that you believe in certain 'inalienable self-evident truths' until now, from what you have written in the past it has been pretty clear that you are not a moral relativist in the same way that Sarvis is. So there is hope for you yet! You haven't quite gone as far as Kindi but I think that is mostly out of stubbornness. :)

Don't get me wrong. I believe there are certain truths that are self-evident, but most of the time, context matters. And I think people on the whole are less objective about their morals than they claim (or realize). Using Christianity as an example again, how many Christians believe divorce is a sin? Marriage is referred to as a "covenant" in Deuteronomy, which is a word reserved for an unbreakable bond between man and god. Any Christian who holds himself as a bible literalist would be staunchly opposed to divorce.

But then why do so many Christians get divorced? Are there circumstances where it becomes morally acceptable? What if your partner is unfaithful or abusive? What if you made a poor choice and now you're unhappy?
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:48 pm

I couldn't care less whether Christians think divorce is a sin or whatever. I am an atheist too. I want the Christians to be able to practice their religion as they please, but not enforce their morality upon me. What matters to me is when people start killing in the name of religion. To me that is a big issue. And I don't see very much official support among the world's organized religions except for one major exception.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:43 pm

No, I don't hate the little tribes living in the jungles of Central America. They are uncivilized by our terms, but they are not barbaric. They don't blow up crowds of civilians, they don't stone women, they don't...many things.


Sarvis wrote:Except for the ones who mutilate women's genitals, and the ones who take "brides" by kidnapping them from other tribes, and the ones you probably don't know about that do stone women. (I'm making an assumption on that last one, but I'm sure somewhere some tribe does something just as horrific.)


No tribes in Central America engage in ANY of the barbarisms you mentioned. None. They do in the Middle East though. You are trying to defend their culture, in this case with erroneous or purposefully-misleading barbaric crimes.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:54 pm

Corth wrote:I couldn't care less whether Christians think divorce is a sin or whatever. I am an atheist too. I want the Christians to be able to practice their religion as they please, but not enforce their morality upon me. What matters to me is when people start killing in the name of religion. To me that is a big issue. And I don't see very much official support among the world's organized religions except for one major exception.

So how's that War in Iraq going? Did we fulfill George W. Bush's divine mission yet?

President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.
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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Corth » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:58 pm

Heh - I posted in the other thread about GWB before you brought him up here. I will make a very limited defense of GWB in this context. I'm not sure what GWB's motivations were in going to Iraq (I think the religious aspects are probably overblown). However, a lot of other people, including most Democrats, believed that Iraq was a threat to our nation's security. I am not embarassed to say that I supported that war at the time for that reason - though in retrospect I think it was a bad decision.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Moderate/Mainstream Islam

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:24 am

Corth wrote:The shooting this morning in Arizona will illustrate the difference in cultures between the largely Judeo-Christian US and Muslim Pakistan. The killer, who is in custody, will be condemnned by even the most fringe politicians. There will not be anything resembling a mainstream group cheering his acts.

And just in-time, an appropriate comparison of cultures.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/world ... ss&emc=rss
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Cheering crowds have gathered in recent days to support the assassin who riddled the governor of Punjab with 26 bullets and to praise his attack — carried out in the name of the Prophet Muhammad — as an act of heroism.
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