undocumented worker or criminal illegal

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undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:12 pm

This thread is for posting news stories about illegals who have committed crimes in the USA. Crimes other than being here illegally (which is still a crime FYI).

3 Illegals killed a 15 year old girl during a car jacking. Interestingly enough, they turned themselves in.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/30/me ... latestnews

Illegal with a pound of meth.
http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/c ... 62229.html
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:24 pm

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/79174.php

Illegal who went on to become a neurosurgeon.

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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:28 pm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm

Records of illegal immigrants murdering American national citizens. Kind of shocking really, when you look at the numbers.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:50 pm

Ragorn wrote:Illegal who went on to become a neurosurgeon.


and your point is what? He was rewarded for committing a crime? or that he became a neuro surgeon stealing an opportunity from an American? You're right that is a serious crime.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:43 pm

kiryan wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Illegal who went on to become a neurosurgeon.


and your point is what? He was rewarded for committing a crime? or that he became a neuro surgeon stealing an opportunity from an American? You're right that is a serious crime.

I'm not sure, what's the point of this thread?

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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:55 pm

Ragorn wrote:http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm

Records of illegal immigrants murdering American national citizens. Kind of shocking really, when you look at the numbers.


I lol'd for real.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:46 pm

Kifle wrote:
Ragorn wrote:http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm

Records of illegal immigrants murdering American national citizens. Kind of shocking really, when you look at the numbers.


I lol'd for real.

Yeah, I really should have just posted that instead of the brain surgeon... I feel like that's the post that really pwned the thread.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:34 pm

Please explain in small words how the fact that Americans committed genocide against the Indians 100 years ago relates to a list of crimes commited by illegal immigrants today.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:11 pm

kiryan wrote:Please explain in small words how the fact that Americans committed genocide against the Indians 100 years ago relates to a list of crimes commited by illegal immigrants today.


In part because their ideologies are what drives this country. In part because we sing songs about them. Mostly, though, it is because we wouldn't have had this country to call "ours" if we hadn't done that, and here you are hundreds of years later moaning about someone else doing it to us on a microscopic scale (I don't think that is a term to describe the difference in magnitude).

The long and short of it: We came here, without immigration papers, green cards, etc., made areas our homes on land owned by others, disregarding property rights, started wars and invited them to join (although they had no quarrel), after we won the wars, we simply tossed them aside and took the rest of their land and killing the initial inhabitants. That's a super condensed version, but, as you can see, we're only at stage one and you're this pissed. History has a way of repeating itself, and as the Indians learned, humans don't own land, we just think we do. Count your blessings the Mexicans don't take over Texas and Arizona and start a war with Canada and expect us to be their white shields.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:24 pm

So you're saying that a wanton disregard for rights 100 years ago gives anyone the right to wantonly disregard rights today? Really, that is part of your moral code? This somehow cleverly ends the thread?

It is hillarious, but it certainly doesn't addresses the very real problem today of illegals consuming our resources and committing crimes against our citizens.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:53 pm

kiryan wrote:So you're saying that a wanton disregard for rights 100 years ago gives anyone the right to wantonly disregard rights today? Really, that is part of your moral code? This somehow cleverly ends the thread?

It is hillarious, but it certainly doesn't addresses the very real problem today of illegals consuming our resources and committing crimes against our citizens.


I wasn't trying to end the thread, Ragorn did that 8 posts ago. I was just trying to explain, I suppose. And 100 Years ago was 1911, far from Plymouth rock :) My moral code is relative. However, I always find nature's jokes to be funny when played out in such a suspenseful and startling way.

There is no real problem. Once you get past the idea that you actually "own" anything, you will realize how silly you are being. Really, what gives you the right to own land here? The idea that property is a right granted to you by God because John Locke, and later Jefferson, told you it was? I'm no hippy, and I fully understand the utility of behaving in such a way, and I've obviously done so for the majority of my life and will continue to do so until I'm not capable; however, the only thing that justifies your ownership of anything is your belief in an ideological system known as government and your faith that the dollar is indicative of wealth -- which again relies on the former. I hate to go all philosophical on your ass here, but there is really no better way to explain the hypocrisy of your borrowed beliefs. If there were any "owners" of this land, they are either long dead or have been corralled into small sections of this country. The fact that the chain of events that led to you even having a house at this point is so disastrous and humiliating to humanity that you should be more than willing to share it -- as was the initial purpose of this country: Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door. Are you telling me that that little poem, which has been a cornerstone of this government and people, does not explicitly speak out against your current tantrum?

I guess that begs the question: Are you the type of person who gives up on ideology as soon as it is no longer practical or beneficial to you and your bloodline? Because if that's the case, you may want to return your Bible to the library and pick up something on Satanism (I do believe that is the cornerstone of their ideology: self-serving action regardless of outcome).
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:51 am

I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiments of the article and its damning conclusions. We invaded this land and took it from the Indians.

What gives me the right today to own a home is the government we have created. This right doesn't descend from heaven, its a rule of man and an equal foundation of our country is that of the rule of law. The poem represents our ideals and we have drifted far from those... just as we have drifted far from our foundation on God... are you advocating for a return to all our foundational principles, or just the ones that support illegal immigration?

The philosophy of freedom to do whatever I want free from government intrusion is not incompatible with the philosophy of the Bible. You unfairly find that freedom to pursue ones own objectives leads necessarily to selfishness. While I am free to walk past a dieing man and have no obligation to him because I was given free choice by God, I generally would stop and help him. I don't need a moral code that requires me to stop... to actually stop and help someone else. Christians know what is right; they are convicted of it by the holy spirit. Moralists and ethicists need a rational reason scientific explanation on why they ought to do something and if there is a rational reason then they MUST do it.

While you find following these reasonings to make you a better person presumably due to consitency and reason or some sort of adherence to the perfect ultimate code of conduct, I find it callous and without humanity. Feeding the homeless for you is not compassion, its your moral duty. I hope you are compassionate, but its really immaterial. You MUST feed the homeless out of rational rqeuirement; I choose to feed the homeless out of compassion and humanity.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:52 am

Relative? More like irrelevant. Morals have very little to do with the immigration issues of the day.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Corth » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:18 am

What happened to the Native Americans hundreds of years ago has no bearing on immigration policy today. If we're actually attempting to discuss the topic at hand (are we?) then Ragorn's first post is more appropriate. The second post one where he 'pwned' the thread is witty in a kind of wise-ass way, but not a serious point.

That being said, the stated topic of the thread makes no sense. Are we going to have another thread of US citizens who commit violent crimes against others? People do violent and bad things irregardless of their immigration status.

Immigration policy seems so basic to me that I just can't understand what needs to be argued about. If you are here illegally you are committing a crime and should go to jail and then be deported. BUT, why not just allow people to come here legally? You know, work on the books, pay taxes, have smart neurosurgeon children who save lives. Immigration, almost without exception, has historically been a very good thing for a country.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kindi » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:10 pm

agreed corth
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:45 pm

Just because it's so rare, I'm going to go on record as agreeing with Corth.

Although I guess I take some exception to harsh punishment for these guys, since they are breaking a law that shouldn't be there anyway. Kind of like when potheads get arrested...
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Corth » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:13 pm

The way I see it, Sarvis, there are certain people you don't want immigrating into your country. For instance, people with a violent criminal records in their home country. So you still want to have very strict border security and enforcement of immigration laws.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:52 pm

Setting a high bar for immigrants can only be a benefit to our nation.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Ragorn » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:37 pm

This is just a nonsensical thread. It's the equivalent me starting a thread entitled "All Republicans are closet homosexuals" and linking half a dozen news articles about Republican lawmakers diddling little boys. And then to each subsequent post, just asking "that's all very interesting, but how does that relate to the fact that all Republicans are gay?" It's a thread with no assertion, just out-of-context facts.

To the actual matter of immigration, /agree Corth. We're a nation of immigrants getting pissed off because people want to immigrate here. Illegal immigrants should be deported. We should not build a wall or otherwise discourage people from moving here and being a part of our nation. I don't see what the problem is.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:20 am

I find your positions on illegal immigration unrealistic. poor people don't pay taxes and consume a significant amount of services. The majority of illegal immigrants are poor. Without entitlement reform, we simply can not afford to allow anyone who wants to to immigrate.

Sarvis your opinion that the law shouldn't even exist is just plain ego masturbation. Its perfectly legal, every country I am aware of has one. People have "owned" property for thousands of years and countries have existed for equally as long. If you can simply declare the law shouldn't exist, can I simply declare that other laws shouldn't exist?

You can start and keep a thread going of American's committing crime in America if you want. I'm doing one on illegals. I'm pondering starting one for black people too just because most WTF type case I read about seems to involve black people. While there are people of every color and nationality committing crimes, certain segments of the population are responsible for more per capita than others.

I'm specifically trying to draw attention to illegal immigrants and the crime they are responsible for.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kindi » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:26 am

ya we should make illegals wear armbands with a star on them so we know who to deport
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:06 am

kiryan wrote:If you can simply declare the law shouldn't exist, can I simply declare that other laws shouldn't exist?


You mean like Obama's health care law?
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:16 am

Thats the one I was thinking of, but why stop there. There are lots of laws that shouldn't exist like income taxes and smoking in bars.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Corth » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:27 am

Kiryan,

Poor people don't pay taxes... but then again, how many stories do you hear of immigrants coming to this country, working hard, and becoming wealthy? Or slaving away for meager earnings so they can put their children through college and medical school, etc?

The best counter argument I've heard really is that some nationalities/cultures just don't make much of an attempt at integration while others do. The Asians, for instance, seem to highly value education. They basically have a stranglehold on MIT. Mexicans and South Americans, speaking very broadly (of course there are enormous exceptions), don't seem to value education as much. Or learning the language, etc.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:38 am

Well said on your previous post Corth!

The majority of illegals I know work very hard, do pay taxes, and recycle plenty of their resources back into our economy. You can talk all day about how they're stealing jobs from other Americans, but they're mostly taking low-end jobs that Americans don't want. If Americans wanted those jobs, they wouldn't have spent this long on unemployment. If Americans wanted those jobs, they wouldn't spend so much time on welfare. Unemployment rates are up everywhere, but McDonald's is hiring.

We would do ourselves a huge favor by allowing legal immigration for those who want to work hard and learn the language.

And I still say we should buy Haiti, bring them over here and give them jobs, and deport all our long-term welfare recipients who refuse to work.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:03 am

Corth, there are a lot of stories. Are they the exception or the norm? Stories have been ubiquitously used to push laws and legislation and policies? Should we apply the same rational to the stories of the drug dealers, the gangs, murders and rapists?

I agree with the concerns of immigrants who don't want to integrate. Europe has a massive problem with this. There were riots several years ago in France and I believe England too from disaffected muslims.

I'm ok with legal immigration, selecting from the best and brightest and hardest working. I'm not ok with illegal immigration. Illegal immigration rewards those who are willing to break the law to get what they want. You know I really want a 50k, maybe I can just go steal it and be forgiven because I was just doing it for my kids too.

--

Ashiwi. Lets really think about this "jobs american's don't want" crap. So immigration is ok if we import foreigners who will do jobs American's won't do? Boy that sounds an awful lot like exploitation... I'm surprised you're ok with that. And whats even more perposterous is how this is even the solution it is portrayed to be. Will we raise their kids to do those jobs too or just import more second class citizen slaves? and lastly, how does importing mexicans make those jobs more attractive to Americans? Doesnt importing labor reduce its cost?

and lets talk about unemployment. Jobs american's won't do. Why do you suppose that when you're unemployed there are jobs American's wont do? If I can make more on unemployment than working, why would I work? seriously, why would i work if I can get food stamps, healthcare, subsidized housing and education and cash back for taxes I haven't paid?

And lets look at how this drives illegal immigration. Are these services that you can't get in mexico? No... then why do they come here? Because they can get stuff free here that they can't get in their own country. So if we open up immigration to anyone who wants... and I'd imagine at least 2 billion people would rather be here... are YOU going to pay to provide all these people these services? Seems like it was just last year I was reading about Grady hospital having to shut down their dialysis clinic because of all the illegals.... have you written your check to them? Was it 50k or 110k per year per illegal, I can't quite remember.

If you want immigration reform, reform entitlements first. When everyone is actually paying their own way, we can talk about opening the borders.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:40 am

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110207/us_ ... n_fastfood

More jobs that American's don't want to do? Given that there are plenty of Americans working in the restaurant business, many presumably at places with worse wages and benefits, do you still want to argue that immigrants take jobs that American's wont want to do?

--"Alejandro, one of the Chipotle workers fired in Minnesota who asked that his last name not be published for fear of reprisals, worked there for five years and earned $9.42 per hour, taking home $1,200 a month."

You know what... They're right. That's a job that I wouldn't take even when I was on unemployment. You know why? cuz I was being paid $1,800 a month to put in 1 job application a week. Now, is this a problem of American's not willing to do a job, or a problem in the system that we setup? If I had no unemployment check, I'd be first in line to work in a restaurant.

Lots of college students I know would however take that job over their current minimum wage waitering jobs. Their minimum wage retail jobs. etc etc etc... These are not jobs American's are unwilling to do. Business would rather have these illegal workers because they probably do work harder be less trouble and will stay in the same position longer (reducing retraining costs).

--"I thought it was a good company," said Alejandro, who lost his job in December along with 10 of his 20 co-workers. "I was even going to get training to be promoted to kitchen manager."

Kitchen manager, another job no American would want. They don't take just the jobs no American will do, they take the best job they can get. Whether its one an American would do or not.

--a federal crackdown on its immigrant labor force that has so far forced Chipotle to fire hundreds of allegedly illegal workers in the state of Minnesota, perhaps more than half its staff there.

Minnesota's unemployment rate is 7% or 200,000 people. "Hundreds of jobs" are now available to them. Seems like some guy from Minnesota was just complaining about having sent out several hundred of resumes over the course of 2 years, but he couldn't get a job anywhere. I think he's full of shit, but if he really is that motivated for a job... then I presume he would take one of these. Hell its more than minimum wage. Another one I remember reading about was a lawyer applying to work at a humane shelter that paid minimum wage. I suspect that they'd rather work for $2 more an hour at chipotle than at the humane shelter.

--The overall number of immigrants employed in the sector climbed from just over 1.7 million in 2008 to 1.8 million in 2010, according to this data, even as native employment fell from 6.4 million to 5.9 million.

--The Pew Hispanic Center -- whose demographic and labor market work is highly regarded -- estimated in a 2009 report that 12 percent of the workforce in food preparation and serving in 2008 was undocumented.

1.8 million more American's could have a job if we stopped allowing illegal immigrants to take these jobs. Given unemployment is officially 13.9 million people, that would be a 15% reduction in the unemployment rate. We could go from 9% to under 8% overnight... reducing the strain on our state / federal budgets and a lot more of that money would be spent in the US vs the 66% of his income that Alejandro sends to his family in Mexico.

--"And after the six years I worked there, or the 10 years of some of my colleagues, they get rid of us without warning."

And this is how they feel. They have a right to these jobs; its unfair. Wonder if they felt that way when they first walked across the border. They aren't coming here to do the jobs American's won't. They're coming here to get the best jobs they can.

---------------------

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/02/07/us. ... tml?hpt=T2

Law enforcement personnel working on the rape of an 8-year-old girl say a person arrested Sunday evening in Houston is an illegal immigrant who slipped through the system.

At least ONE less little girl would've been raped if this guy was deported effectively in 2003 or in November when he was picked up for drunkedness. Instead the day after Christmas this EIGHT year old girl was raped in the ass.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:54 pm

In situations like that, you need to ask why employers are hiring mass illegals. Any workplace in a diverse area should have a diverse range of applicants, right? So why would a company hire almost exclusively from one ethnicity? The McDonald's sites in our area are making a shift from a predominantly black to a predominantly hispanic/latino workforce, too. Of course, that's typically during the day, when the schoolkids are otherwise occupied. I honestly rarely go to McDonald's, but when I go in the morning before work what I see is a bunch of clean-cut hispanics, a smattering of african-americans, and a handful of caucasians who could use a little more rehab.

Oh, and unlike many Americans, I can't bring myself to sit around on the public dole waiting for the perfect job to come along. I'm blown away that we allowed so many to sit around on unemployment for as long as they did. If my job ended tomorrow I might get unemployment to assist me in the transition, but I wouldn't wait two years to find another job, even if I had to take a job making substantially less. Unemployment should be right up there with the other entitlements on the reform block. Personally, I could care less if a 10.00/hr job doesn't pay the mortgage on the 500,000 home somebody bought in the bubble.

If you didn't have an unemployment check, you would take a restaurant job, right? Entitled to it much?

Reforming entitlements here isn't really going to shake up the illegal community as much as you might think. I'm not going to say there aren't illegals on assistance, but the majority of illegals aren't coming here FOR the assistance. Reforms in how illegals are handled in the workplace is a good step in the right direction. Reforms in how immigrants can legally come into the country is another good step. Clean up the area just south of the border and assist them in building cleaner cities with adequate healthcare and job potential, and it'll help somewhat. On top of that reform rental regulations so that landlords face stiffer penalties for housing illegals. If you really want to put a crimp in the hiring of illegals, however, what you're going to have to do is figure out a way to reform identification of residents that won't ruin a resident's life when an illegal is running around with their identity. The most that reforming entitlements might do to the illegals is get our lazy residents off their welfare butts and back out into the workplace in low-end jobs. Maybe.

Right now you could catch tons of illegals by running dup ssn searches in health insurance databases, but residents are typically anti-anything that offers a logical solution. Billyclubs and forceful deportation, that's lovely, but the government accessing your private information (which they already have) to do the job is not.

There was a sad story here about a truck that went over a bridge and into a river after our last snowstorm (roads mostly cleared), and three of the people in it died. There were a bunch of people in it, too. All hispanic/latino. They were going to their jobs at a local mushroom farm. Riding in a truck bed to get to work ... at a mushroom farm ... in twenty inches of snow ... in temperatures well below freezing ... when most others couldn't be arsed about warming up their cars and going to work in heated office buildings.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:46 pm

one thing your all over looking about those people in unemployment is do McDonalds and Chipotles actually want to hire these people? ill tell you straight up they dont, why bother hiring, training and depending on someone you know is going to be leaving at the first chance they get. Ive managed restaurants and ill tell you we had some amazing people apply, but we over looked those people cause you could tell they were only gonna be there for as short a time as possible. Hell with 10 years managing, cooking and serving in the restaurant industray i tried to get back in when things were slow in the oil field, only to be told that they werent going to bother knowing id be leaving for the oil field as soon as things picked up.

Illegal immagrants offer lots Americans do not, including loyalty, long term employment, less bull shit drama, and all in all a better attitude. If i ran a restaurant in the US id do exactly the same thing chipotles did, especially with the kitchen staff. Have some hotties of various nationalities in the front to serve my tables and all hispanic kitchen to cook the food. i keep labor costs down, i retain employment for a long term basis and in the restaurant industry thats a huge thing. frankly what incentive do i have to do otherwise? A fine? meh probably wont be big enough to offset the amount i save in wages and training.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:33 pm

==In situations like that, you need to ask why employers are hiring mass illegals. Any workplace in a diverse area should have a diverse range of applicants, right?


I absolutely agree with this and Amena's very well put post... especially the part about drama and the leaving. That is the point I'm trying to get to which is a 100% different account than illegals do jobs American's won't do that immigrant supporters trumpet constantly.

American business prefers to higher illegals for this kind of work because the average illegal immigrant is better at it than the average American. The accept less pay, work harder, stay longer and are less drama. Now please explain why we should allow it to continue to go on... to allow evil American corporations to exploit illegal workers in this manner, to allow lazy Americans to lay about because there is no job they're willing to work that pays them beter than unemployment or just the regular general subsidies for the poor.

FYI update, the illegals are suing chipotle alleging they failed to pay them in accordance with applicable laws. It happens so often its predictable. Next will be the accusations of major violations of employment law and amnesty for illegals who will line up to testify about abuses.

== Oh, and unlike many Americans, I can't bring myself to sit around on the public dole waiting for the perfect job to come along. I'm blown away that we allowed so many to sit around on unemployment for as long as they did.

I'm blown away by it too.


==If you didn't have an unemployment check, you would take a restaurant job, right? Entitled to it much?

Yes I'm 100% entitled to it, thats why I got it. I basically turned down a $20-$25 an hour IT Director job for a city. You think a $10 restaurant job would even get me out of bed to go to the interview LOL. I wasn't required to take it because it was less than 75% of my previous salary. A BIG part of the reason I actually turned it down was 99 weeks of unemployment. I'd rather live on unemployment for 2 years than take a $20 an hour job. Had it been that job vs 6 months of unemployment, I'dve taken the job just out of risk management.


==Reforming entitlements here isn't really going to shake up the illegal community as much as you might think. I'm not going to say there aren't illegals on assistance, but the majority of illegals aren't coming here FOR the assistance. ...
The most that reforming entitlements might do to the illegals is get our lazy residents off their welfare butts and back out into the workplace in low-end jobs. Maybe.


Yes, getting American's off their lazy ass, stop them thinking that someone will feed them, house them and even give them a cell phone regardless of whether they work. This is the entitlement reform that is necessary. Illegals on entitlements are a cost... but its American's who won't work that really prevent me from being remotely willing to consider immigration reform.


but, the cost of social services for the illegals is no small amount. The sheer number, 11-15 million necessitates that its a large cost. Especially on the education system.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:42 pm

2 illegals with 222 assault rifles and pistols

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/02/18/ch ... latestnews
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:35 pm

American citizen charged with stockpiling weapons due to Sarah Palin's crazy.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... partie.php
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:42 am

Kifle wrote:American citizen charged with stockpiling weapons due to Sarah Palin's crazy.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... partie.php

Ridiculous. It's due to his crazy and has nothing to do with Sarah Palin any more than socialist blockades of military supplies are due to Obama's crazy.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Karenthael » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:08 pm

Kifle wrote:American citizen charged with stockpiling weapons due to Sarah Palin's crazy.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... partie.php




Yeh we just had a Ranger pull this same kind of stunt on FT. Benning. Although it had nothing to do with Palin so much as that he was 6 kinds of crazy and liked things that go "BOOM". Rangers lead the way hooah!
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:16 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:American citizen charged with stockpiling weapons due to Sarah Palin's crazy.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... partie.php

Ridiculous. It's due to his crazy and has nothing to do with Sarah Palin any more than socialist blockades of military supplies are due to Obama's crazy.


That really wasn't the point of the post, but since you brought it up... When you speak directly to an extremist section of the population, you should probably be careful with your words and your message. If you are going to sit and honestly tell me that what you say has no bearing on the actions of others, you are, again, arguing to argue. Yes, Sarah Palin didn't go tell this guy to directly buy weapons and store them; however, she is spreading a message which could definitely (obviously) push someone already on the brink to do such a thing. If I walk into a church and tell them there is a drug dealer just outside their door, would they get up and walk out to take care of the issue? More than likely -- even if the drug dealer were fictional. I didn't once tell them to go do this, but I already know the outcome with a very high probability before I even speak the words. What you're doing is hiding behind the illusion that I can't "prove" a connection; however, logically, it is beyond any doubt that her words spurred this guy to acting as he did -- as he readily admitted.

Does this remove him from owning his own actions? No, he is still a wacko; however, she is a dangerous speaker, speaking to the idiots of the country who are bound to do idiotic things in her name. She needs to show a bit more tact in getting her message out. I can see her one day leading a cult or militia of some sort.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:30 pm

Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:American citizen charged with stockpiling weapons due to Sarah Palin's crazy.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... partie.php

Ridiculous. It's due to his crazy and has nothing to do with Sarah Palin any more than socialist blockades of military supplies are due to Obama's crazy.


That really wasn't the point of the post, but since you brought it up... When you speak directly to an extremist section of the population, you should probably be careful with your words and your message. If you are going to sit and honestly tell me that what you say has no bearing on the actions of others, you are, again, arguing to argue. Yes, Sarah Palin didn't go tell this guy to directly buy weapons and store them; however, she is spreading a message which could definitely (obviously) push someone already on the brink to do such a thing. If I walk into a church and tell them there is a drug dealer just outside their door, would they get up and walk out to take care of the issue? More than likely -- even if the drug dealer were fictional. I didn't once tell them to go do this, but I already know the outcome with a very high probability before I even speak the words. What you're doing is hiding behind the illusion that I can't "prove" a connection; however, logically, it is beyond any doubt that her words spurred this guy to acting as he did -- as he readily admitted.

Does this remove him from owning his own actions? No, he is still a wacko; however, she is a dangerous speaker, speaking to the idiots of the country who are bound to do idiotic things in her name. She needs to show a bit more tact in getting her message out. I can see her one day leading a cult or militia of some sort.

You have an interesting logic used by many dictators to remove the right of free speech from their subjects.

Sarah Palin speaks to a very wide audience that composes nearly half of Americans. Your slander of that audience aside, other national level politicians ALL speak directly to some crazies, and have prompted them to do stupid things like blockade military supplies, break laws, and do all sorts of crazy shit from left to right.

So the question is, why do you come down so forcefully on Sarah Palin, when I see NOTHING from you criticizing Obama when he says things about 'punishing our enemies' (referring to political enemies), 'get in their faces,' 'if they bring a knife, we bring a gun', or any of the other things he's said that could provoke crazies to do something illegal as well? I realize you are a partisan, and you simply don't like Sarah Palin, but aren't you being a little dishonest criticizing only Palin for something all national level politicians do?
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:37 pm

Teflor has my position. The individual must be individually solely responsible for their actions. We've moved away from that, and in some sense I do agree its justice to put some of these "dangerous" speakers in jail... but that's all China does... just puts people "dangerous" to the public good in jail. Whether thats tibetan monks, or the guy awarded the nobel peace prize.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:47 pm

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's definitely wrong of Obama or Sarah or other national figures to openly incite violence.

But the borderline stuff is something they all do.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:56 pm

Everyone is going to have different thresholds on what is inciteful speech or where responsibility lies for a particular action. I don't think its debatable that there is a huge difference between me saying

Go kill A
You should kill A
If you love me you should kill A
Someone should kill A
I wish A would die
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:59 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:American citizen charged with stockpiling weapons due to Sarah Palin's crazy.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... partie.php

Ridiculous. It's due to his crazy and has nothing to do with Sarah Palin any more than socialist blockades of military supplies are due to Obama's crazy.


That really wasn't the point of the post, but since you brought it up... When you speak directly to an extremist section of the population, you should probably be careful with your words and your message. If you are going to sit and honestly tell me that what you say has no bearing on the actions of others, you are, again, arguing to argue. Yes, Sarah Palin didn't go tell this guy to directly buy weapons and store them; however, she is spreading a message which could definitely (obviously) push someone already on the brink to do such a thing. If I walk into a church and tell them there is a drug dealer just outside their door, would they get up and walk out to take care of the issue? More than likely -- even if the drug dealer were fictional. I didn't once tell them to go do this, but I already know the outcome with a very high probability before I even speak the words. What you're doing is hiding behind the illusion that I can't "prove" a connection; however, logically, it is beyond any doubt that her words spurred this guy to acting as he did -- as he readily admitted.

Does this remove him from owning his own actions? No, he is still a wacko; however, she is a dangerous speaker, speaking to the idiots of the country who are bound to do idiotic things in her name. She needs to show a bit more tact in getting her message out. I can see her one day leading a cult or militia of some sort.

You have an interesting logic used by many dictators to remove the right of free speech from their subjects.

Sarah Palin speaks to a very wide audience that composes nearly half of Americans. Your slander of that audience aside, other national level politicians ALL speak directly to some crazies, and have prompted them to do stupid things like blockade military supplies, break laws, and do all sorts of crazy shit from left to right.

So the question is, why do you come down so forcefully on Sarah Palin, when I see NOTHING from you criticizing Obama when he says things about 'punishing our enemies' (referring to political enemies), 'get in their faces,' 'if they bring a knife, we bring a gun', or any of the other things he's said that could provoke crazies to do something illegal as well? I realize you are a partisan, and you simply don't like Sarah Palin, but aren't you being a little dishonest criticizing only Palin for something all national level politicians do?


Tef, I don't do that because there is nobody defending that in this thread, and it wasn't up for conversation. What was up for conversation was a statement that withdrew any share of the blame from Palin. My statement was that he did it due to her crazy. And, in part, he did -- he also did it because of his crazy. My statement wasn't false nor was it invalid based on the premises. To argue that I'm wrong because I didn't accuse anyone else of it is neither here nor there. If I say eggs are breakable, I'm not wrong because I don't list every breakable object in the world -- that's just poor logic.

Now, as soon as you guys realize that I'm not a part of any party, I don't subscribe to socialism, capitalism, liberalism, conservatism, etc., you will be more inclined to take my statements for what they are -- statements made in a political vacuum. I hate democrates; I hate republicans. I simply just hate the outcome of politics. Now, I have a great admiration for the strategies used. See, I don't insult fox news because they are political; I insult fox news because they do it poorly and it only works on low-brow racists -- for the most part. Does CNN do the same? From time to time, yes, and I will insult them as soon as it is brought up.

The fact of the mater is, I don't pick sides. I wont defend somebody because they are a democrat, and I wont insult someone simply because they are republican. Doing that would be just as stupid and ignorant as following somebody just because they are one or the other. When I vote, I vote based on what they say, how they say it, and what I feel it will cause as an outcome. The second I vote a ticket simply because of the party is the second that I should have my vote tore up and pissed on -- because that is not what the vote was given to me for.

I pick on Palin because she is the largest Jackass in politics since GW Bush. She says stupid things, she is ignorant of virtually everything she speaks on, she is disastrously contradictory in her statements and actions, and she is a career politician with the goals of self-perservation, money, and power. She brings nothing to the table other than a set of tits, and loud mouth, and the loose ethics of somebody that will say something simply because they think it will get them to the next tier of power. She is not good for America. Now, does that mean I think Obama is? No, because I haven't told you what I think of Obama. I think the man is horrible for this country. He is a pussy that has speeches written for him. He doesn't know what he's doing half the time, and when he does, he's too pussy to do what he needs to do to see it done. That is one thing Bush had, well, his staff had. They felt they had to do something, and they did it. Were they right in what they did? Not in my opinion, but they got it done. There are things I agree with that Obama says, but he had a majority and squandered it because he thought it would be politically furthering to not be a bully. Do I think the nobel prize was a joke? Of course. He did nothing to deserve it other than share his opinions of the world's issues with respect to morality. Kudos, Obama, I do it on a daily fucking basis from my computer chair. Do I believe in socialized medicine? I sure do, but do I think Obama has the right way to do it? I sure don't.

So, in short, Palin is an immature douche who shits crazy out of her mouth on a daily basis and I have more respect for Kim Jong Il, but don't think for a second that I'm a democrate, a republican, or somebody who give's any political party or politician carte blanche because they might agree with me on some issues. I'm a person, not a puppet. I encourage you to do the same.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:02 pm

kiryan wrote:Everyone is going to have different thresholds on what is inciteful speech or where responsibility lies for a particular action. I don't think its debatable that there is a huge difference between me saying

Go kill A
You should kill A
If you love me you should kill A
Someone should kill A
I wish A would die


That is circumstantial. If you have a child that still thinks you are god, they might go kill A. If you are a cult leader, the second would be disastrous. If you are in the process of divorce, and your wife is extremely emotionally unstable, the third would have a good chance of working. If you are speaking at a militia rally that is one step from the edge concerning a political figure, and they respect your word for law, saying the fourth would be just as dangerous. The fifth in the same circumstance would be deadly.

What Palin doesn't do is think about the circumstance -- her followers. They are extremist, for the most part. They are idiots, for the most part. They follow her words as if she had something intelligent to say. She is dangerous.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:12 pm

Its a good point... and its why at the end of the day, I say you and only you must be 100% responsible for your own action.

To have to censor / worry about who hears you exercise your 1st amendment freedom to express an opinion or belief puts you in a position where you can't exercise your freedom to speak... because someone might blame you for it. I'm curious... how do you feel about the killers who have blamed music groups and songs for their murderous ramapages... Metallica (old school), insane clown possee, gangsta rap? Do these groups "speak" to the fringe elements or do they speak to mainstream?

Interestingly, this is almost the exact same conundrum I have with throwing the wall street crooks in jail... you should go to jail if you incite someone into killing another person (or cause trillions of dollars in wealth to disapper)... but while you should, each person actually made the decision... to kill... to invest in companies and markets...
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:31 pm

kiryan wrote:Its a good point... and its why at the end of the day, I say you and only you must be 100% responsible for your own action.

To have to censor / worry about who hears you exercise your 1st amendment freedom to express an opinion or belief puts you in a position where you can't exercise your freedom to speak... because someone might blame you for it. I'm curious... how do you feel about the killers who have blamed music groups and songs for their murderous ramapages... Metallica (old school), insane clown possee, gangsta rap? Do these groups "speak" to the fringe elements or do they speak to mainstream?

Interestingly, this is almost the exact same conundrum I have with throwing the wall street crooks in jail... you should go to jail if you incite someone into killing another person (or cause trillions of dollars in wealth to disapper)... but while you should, each person actually made the decision... to kill... to invest in companies and markets...


Exactly, the one that says these things must be 100% responsible for their own action -- because their words can be dangerous. She is not careful. I'd go so far as to say she wants things like this to happen. A politician must be careful every time they open their mouths. If they think blacks are horrible people, they have to remain silent because they would be deadly for their career. They have the ability to watch what they say because that is how they get their jobs in the first place. Every politician hides their views from the public because it is bad for THEM. Why do we not hold them accountable for the things they say otherwise? They have the ability, they have the intelligence to realize their words have power and outcomes, so why do we ignore when their words incite negative outcomes?

As far as music? That is all dependent on the circumstance as well. In most cases though, I will rule on the side of the musician, and here is why. Music is developed for aesthetic purposes -- entertainment. They are not on a political forum, for the most part. Wackjobs that want to already overthrow the government do not do so because Metallica sings about guns. That is very indirect. Wackjobs will, however, be more inclined to act when a national political figure within the government chooses to denounce the government. This is direct. Music may further the emotion (hate, anger, etc) by virtue of the music itself. You play a lyrically devoid instrumental from Pantera, it's going to get you pumped -- to work out, to run, to drive fast, etc. You listen to Palin talk about how the government is fucked and blah blah, you have a direct link to what the person is already pissed about -- and giving them justification for their actions because of who the person is. Lars Ulrich should not be looked to as a political figure. Now, if Bono is accused of something like this, I would be more inclined to not dismiss it offhand. If it were Zach De La Rocha or any other member of RATM, I would definitely look into it.

For your second statement. Yes, there is always the aspect of personal responsibility, but, again, that has to be taken only circumstantially. I have a large degree of control in my decisions because I'm not an idiot. My 9yr old, however, is not so in control. She looks to others to make her decisions for her -- for good reason. The majority of the American public couldn't tell you what an ETF is. Most Americans have heard the term "toxic mortgage" and know nothing more than that they are bad things associated with mortgages. So, they will trust the people who are paid a lot of money to know things like this. Due to specialization in a capitalist economy, we are forced to be ignorant of some things and defer to those that have succeeded in the field. It is then justifiable that these people should probably not do things counter to our benefit solely for their benefit. That is like paying somebody to defend you in court who has not passed the bar exam. We protect people from this because there is a degree of specialization that the government has noticed is necessary in dealings of the legal sort. The same should definitely be congruous in the financial industry. And, if the lawyer is acting in such a way that does not benefit the client, not doing their best to defend the client, then the Lawyer can be disbarred (and fined? I'm not sure). If the lawyer is caught doing something purposefully against their client, I believe that is criminal. The same should be for the financial institutions, the medical institutions, etc.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:43 pm

So would lady Gaga be a musician or a politician? I'd like to point out lots of songs are about politics... or at least an attack on certain aspects of culture.

What would you say to someone who says...

listening to Rush Limbaugh a conservative out of a liberal doth not make?

I use music to alter my moods depending on how I'm feeling.. sometimes I put on a good piece of mozart to get pumped, sometimes I need bubblegum music. I don't listen to Glenn Beck to have him give me my opinion... If I'm flipping through the radio channels and I catch a liberal radio program, I'm not going to become a liberal. I listen to stuff because I am interested in the points, particularly the ones that mirror mine... sometimes i do want to be pumped or motivated or angry at the government... but thats my decision... Kind of like posting on these forums =). You guys are fueling my hate!
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:57 pm

kiryan wrote:So would lady Gaga be a musician or a politician? I'd like to point out lots of songs are about politics... or at least an attack on certain aspects of culture.

What would you say to someone who says...

listening to Rush Limbaugh a conservative out of a liberal doth not make?

I use music to alter my moods depending on how I'm feeling.. sometimes I put on a good piece of mozart to get pumped, sometimes I need bubblegum music. I don't listen to Glenn Beck to have him give me my opinion... If I'm flipping through the radio channels and I catch a liberal radio program, I'm not going to become a liberal. I listen to stuff because I am interested in the points, particularly the ones that mirror mine... sometimes i do want to be pumped or motivated or angry at the government... but thats my decision... Kind of like posting on these forums =). You guys are fueling my hate!


Kiryan, I'm just not going to commit to a black and white view of the world because the world is not black and white. When human emotion is central to the issue, you must assume subjectivity. There are things that are black and white, but this is not one of them. In this case, Palin was irresponsible -- she IS irresponsible. There is no questioning her motives when she speaks. She attempts to polarize, agitate, and insite her listeners to action. Unfortunately, the action is not always good. Should she be held accountable? Yes. Should she be criminally accountable for instances such as these? Not yet.
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Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:10 pm

Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:American citizen charged with stockpiling weapons due to Sarah Palin's crazy.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... partie.php

Ridiculous. It's due to his crazy and has nothing to do with Sarah Palin any more than socialist blockades of military supplies are due to Obama's crazy.


That really wasn't the point of the post, but since you brought it up... When you speak directly to an extremist section of the population, you should probably be careful with your words and your message. If you are going to sit and honestly tell me that what you say has no bearing on the actions of others, you are, again, arguing to argue. Yes, Sarah Palin didn't go tell this guy to directly buy weapons and store them; however, she is spreading a message which could definitely (obviously) push someone already on the brink to do such a thing. If I walk into a church and tell them there is a drug dealer just outside their door, would they get up and walk out to take care of the issue? More than likely -- even if the drug dealer were fictional. I didn't once tell them to go do this, but I already know the outcome with a very high probability before I even speak the words. What you're doing is hiding behind the illusion that I can't "prove" a connection; however, logically, it is beyond any doubt that her words spurred this guy to acting as he did -- as he readily admitted.

Does this remove him from owning his own actions? No, he is still a wacko; however, she is a dangerous speaker, speaking to the idiots of the country who are bound to do idiotic things in her name. She needs to show a bit more tact in getting her message out. I can see her one day leading a cult or militia of some sort.

You have an interesting logic used by many dictators to remove the right of free speech from their subjects.

Sarah Palin speaks to a very wide audience that composes nearly half of Americans. Your slander of that audience aside, other national level politicians ALL speak directly to some crazies, and have prompted them to do stupid things like blockade military supplies, break laws, and do all sorts of crazy shit from left to right.

So the question is, why do you come down so forcefully on Sarah Palin, when I see NOTHING from you criticizing Obama when he says things about 'punishing our enemies' (referring to political enemies), 'get in their faces,' 'if they bring a knife, we bring a gun', or any of the other things he's said that could provoke crazies to do something illegal as well? I realize you are a partisan, and you simply don't like Sarah Palin, but aren't you being a little dishonest criticizing only Palin for something all national level politicians do?


Tef, I don't do that because there is nobody defending that in this thread, and it wasn't up for conversation. What was up for conversation was a statement that withdrew any share of the blame from Palin. My statement was that he did it due to her crazy. And, in part, he did -- he also did it because of his crazy. My statement wasn't false nor was it invalid based on the premises. To argue that I'm wrong because I didn't accuse anyone else of it is neither here nor there. If I say eggs are breakable, I'm not wrong because I don't list every breakable object in the world -- that's just poor logic.

Now, as soon as you guys realize that I'm not a part of any party, I don't subscribe to socialism, capitalism, liberalism, conservatism, etc., you will be more inclined to take my statements for what they are -- statements made in a political vacuum. I hate democrates; I hate republicans. I simply just hate the outcome of politics. Now, I have a great admiration for the strategies used. See, I don't insult fox news because they are political; I insult fox news because they do it poorly and it only works on low-brow racists -- for the most part. Does CNN do the same? From time to time, yes, and I will insult them as soon as it is brought up.

The fact of the mater is, I don't pick sides. I wont defend somebody because they are a democrat, and I wont insult someone simply because they are republican. Doing that would be just as stupid and ignorant as following somebody just because they are one or the other. When I vote, I vote based on what they say, how they say it, and what I feel it will cause as an outcome. The second I vote a ticket simply because of the party is the second that I should have my vote tore up and pissed on -- because that is not what the vote was given to me for.

I pick on Palin because she is the largest Jackass in politics since GW Bush. She says stupid things, she is ignorant of virtually everything she speaks on, she is disastrously contradictory in her statements and actions, and she is a career politician with the goals of self-perservation, money, and power. She brings nothing to the table other than a set of tits, and loud mouth, and the loose ethics of somebody that will say something simply because they think it will get them to the next tier of power. She is not good for America. Now, does that mean I think Obama is? No, because I haven't told you what I think of Obama. I think the man is horrible for this country. He is a pussy that has speeches written for him. He doesn't know what he's doing half the time, and when he does, he's too pussy to do what he needs to do to see it done. That is one thing Bush had, well, his staff had. They felt they had to do something, and they did it. Were they right in what they did? Not in my opinion, but they got it done. There are things I agree with that Obama says, but he had a majority and squandered it because he thought it would be politically furthering to not be a bully. Do I think the nobel prize was a joke? Of course. He did nothing to deserve it other than share his opinions of the world's issues with respect to morality. Kudos, Obama, I do it on a daily fucking basis from my computer chair. Do I believe in socialized medicine? I sure do, but do I think Obama has the right way to do it? I sure don't.

So, in short, Palin is an immature douche who shits crazy out of her mouth on a daily basis and I have more respect for Kim Jong Il, but don't think for a second that I'm a democrate, a republican, or somebody who give's any political party or politician carte blanche because they might agree with me on some issues. I'm a person, not a puppet. I encourage you to do the same.

From what I've seen in your posts, you sure do seem to have picked a side and puppet yourself for the so-called liberals. You haven't told us about what you think about prominent so-called liberals, but you have definitely told us repeatedly what you think about so-called conservatives.

Perhaps it's unintentional. But back to the topic: blaming politician's speeches for the actions of individuals dehumanizes people by removing personal responsibility and by implying that people do not have individual will. That man did what he did due to his own crazy. Politicians of all breeds and flocks use borderline speech all the time. Human beings have individual will and if you demonize behaviors by others that push borderline people over, then, if you desire intellectual consistency, you'll need to demonize a whole boatload of things other people do that push borderline people over the edge every day: from honking horns in traffic, to copying recipes. And it doesn't seem like you do. So I propose that you are only responding to Sarah Palin because you don't like her. Not because you find her to be responsible. Or perhaps that you find her to be responsible because you don't like her.

Either way, I understand that there was an element of sarcasm when you proclaimed that someone stockpiled weapons because of Sarah Palin. But it's an accusation you make without factual basis or intellectual consistency.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Kifle
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:07 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:American citizen charged with stockpiling weapons due to Sarah Palin's crazy.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... partie.php

Ridiculous. It's due to his crazy and has nothing to do with Sarah Palin any more than socialist blockades of military supplies are due to Obama's crazy.


That really wasn't the point of the post, but since you brought it up... When you speak directly to an extremist section of the population, you should probably be careful with your words and your message. If you are going to sit and honestly tell me that what you say has no bearing on the actions of others, you are, again, arguing to argue. Yes, Sarah Palin didn't go tell this guy to directly buy weapons and store them; however, she is spreading a message which could definitely (obviously) push someone already on the brink to do such a thing. If I walk into a church and tell them there is a drug dealer just outside their door, would they get up and walk out to take care of the issue? More than likely -- even if the drug dealer were fictional. I didn't once tell them to go do this, but I already know the outcome with a very high probability before I even speak the words. What you're doing is hiding behind the illusion that I can't "prove" a connection; however, logically, it is beyond any doubt that her words spurred this guy to acting as he did -- as he readily admitted.

Does this remove him from owning his own actions? No, he is still a wacko; however, she is a dangerous speaker, speaking to the idiots of the country who are bound to do idiotic things in her name. She needs to show a bit more tact in getting her message out. I can see her one day leading a cult or militia of some sort.

You have an interesting logic used by many dictators to remove the right of free speech from their subjects.

Sarah Palin speaks to a very wide audience that composes nearly half of Americans. Your slander of that audience aside, other national level politicians ALL speak directly to some crazies, and have prompted them to do stupid things like blockade military supplies, break laws, and do all sorts of crazy shit from left to right.

So the question is, why do you come down so forcefully on Sarah Palin, when I see NOTHING from you criticizing Obama when he says things about 'punishing our enemies' (referring to political enemies), 'get in their faces,' 'if they bring a knife, we bring a gun', or any of the other things he's said that could provoke crazies to do something illegal as well? I realize you are a partisan, and you simply don't like Sarah Palin, but aren't you being a little dishonest criticizing only Palin for something all national level politicians do?


Tef, I don't do that because there is nobody defending that in this thread, and it wasn't up for conversation. What was up for conversation was a statement that withdrew any share of the blame from Palin. My statement was that he did it due to her crazy. And, in part, he did -- he also did it because of his crazy. My statement wasn't false nor was it invalid based on the premises. To argue that I'm wrong because I didn't accuse anyone else of it is neither here nor there. If I say eggs are breakable, I'm not wrong because I don't list every breakable object in the world -- that's just poor logic.

Now, as soon as you guys realize that I'm not a part of any party, I don't subscribe to socialism, capitalism, liberalism, conservatism, etc., you will be more inclined to take my statements for what they are -- statements made in a political vacuum. I hate democrates; I hate republicans. I simply just hate the outcome of politics. Now, I have a great admiration for the strategies used. See, I don't insult fox news because they are political; I insult fox news because they do it poorly and it only works on low-brow racists -- for the most part. Does CNN do the same? From time to time, yes, and I will insult them as soon as it is brought up.

The fact of the mater is, I don't pick sides. I wont defend somebody because they are a democrat, and I wont insult someone simply because they are republican. Doing that would be just as stupid and ignorant as following somebody just because they are one or the other. When I vote, I vote based on what they say, how they say it, and what I feel it will cause as an outcome. The second I vote a ticket simply because of the party is the second that I should have my vote tore up and pissed on -- because that is not what the vote was given to me for.

I pick on Palin because she is the largest Jackass in politics since GW Bush. She says stupid things, she is ignorant of virtually everything she speaks on, she is disastrously contradictory in her statements and actions, and she is a career politician with the goals of self-perservation, money, and power. She brings nothing to the table other than a set of tits, and loud mouth, and the loose ethics of somebody that will say something simply because they think it will get them to the next tier of power. She is not good for America. Now, does that mean I think Obama is? No, because I haven't told you what I think of Obama. I think the man is horrible for this country. He is a pussy that has speeches written for him. He doesn't know what he's doing half the time, and when he does, he's too pussy to do what he needs to do to see it done. That is one thing Bush had, well, his staff had. They felt they had to do something, and they did it. Were they right in what they did? Not in my opinion, but they got it done. There are things I agree with that Obama says, but he had a majority and squandered it because he thought it would be politically furthering to not be a bully. Do I think the nobel prize was a joke? Of course. He did nothing to deserve it other than share his opinions of the world's issues with respect to morality. Kudos, Obama, I do it on a daily fucking basis from my computer chair. Do I believe in socialized medicine? I sure do, but do I think Obama has the right way to do it? I sure don't.

So, in short, Palin is an immature douche who shits crazy out of her mouth on a daily basis and I have more respect for Kim Jong Il, but don't think for a second that I'm a democrate, a republican, or somebody who give's any political party or politician carte blanche because they might agree with me on some issues. I'm a person, not a puppet. I encourage you to do the same.

From what I've seen in your posts, you sure do seem to have picked a side and puppet yourself for the so-called liberals. You haven't told us about what you think about prominent so-called liberals, but you have definitely told us repeatedly what you think about so-called conservatives.

Perhaps it's unintentional. But back to the topic: blaming politician's speeches for the actions of individuals dehumanizes people by removing personal responsibility and by implying that people do not have individual will. That man did what he did due to his own crazy. Politicians of all breeds and flocks use borderline speech all the time. Human beings have individual will and if you demonize behaviors by others that push borderline people over, then, if you desire intellectual consistency, you'll need to demonize a whole boatload of things other people do that push borderline people over the edge every day: from honking horns in traffic, to copying recipes. And it doesn't seem like you do. So I propose that you are only responding to Sarah Palin because you don't like her. Not because you find her to be responsible. Or perhaps that you find her to be responsible because you don't like her.

Either way, I understand that there was an element of sarcasm when you proclaimed that someone stockpiled weapons because of Sarah Palin. But it's an accusation you make without factual basis or intellectual consistency.


I made the claim because the guy claimed it himself in his quotes in the article. And yes, it was a sarcastic post.

Regardless, yes, everyone is responsible for their own actions, but that does not mean other actors aren't also partially responsible. To deny that other people can sway decisions is silly. To say that a speech has no effect on the listener is crazy. It's an argument I use often to win arguments, but I know that it's a bullshit argument. Saying that attributing some blame to the speaker dehumanizes the actor is also insane -- that's partially what makes them human. The speaker causes an emotional response in the listener. There is not one person on the streets that I could not get to punch me in the face by goading them into it. I believe there is also a law around somewhere that puts part of the blame on on the person goading as well.. I believe it's called instigation?

What you are doing is creating a pseudo-philosophical argument which only works in mechanics. Unfortunately, humans are shaped by outside factors, which mold their perspective, behavior, and thought. While the man stockpiled the guns, outside factors contributed to him doing this -- his life that led him to be crazy, maybe his neighbor's actions, Sarah Palin's speeches. These are all contributing factors.

To be clear: I'M NOT SAYING SARAH PALIN IS THE ONLY OR LARGEST CAUSE OF THIS MAN'S CRAZY BEHAVIOR. I'm saying she's a contributing factor. How much of one, I don't know because I don't know the guy. To argue otherwise, is to ignore common sense, fact, and testimony (he has no motive to pin it on Palin as he is one of her supporters).

Also, insulting conservative views does not a liberal make. I make fun of plenty of liberal thought as well. Create an affirmative action or political correctness thread, and you'll see me get a bit shitty to liberals as well. As I said, I am neither liberal or conservative. The best you could do is call me a moderate and have your statement even come close to the truth.
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Teflor Lyorian
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:02 am

Sorry, I made too big a deal of it. I kind of want the time we spent typing back.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
kiryan
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:51 am

More of those jobs that american's won't do. Being in gangs and selling drugs

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/01/am ... latestnews

“These are not simply drug dealers,” ICE Director John Morton told Fox News. “We are talking about violent street gangs that are involved with everything from murder to theft to racketeering.”
...
According to ICE, the nationwide transnational sweep nabbed 678 gang members in 168 cities. About 250 of those arrested were U.S. citizens; 80 guns were confiscated as well as $70,000 in cash.

==I'll do the math for you 678 - 250 US citizens = 428 undocumented workers doing jobs american's wont.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Ragorn » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:58 pm

Would you say they're more or less dangerous to American youth than Bulletstorm, Fox News?

I heard Bulletstorm turn kids into rapists.
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