undocumented worker or criminal illegal

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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:15 pm

kiryan wrote:More of those jobs that american's won't do. Being in gangs and selling drugs

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/01/am ... latestnews

“These are not simply drug dealers,” ICE Director John Morton told Fox News. “We are talking about violent street gangs that are involved with everything from murder to theft to racketeering.”
...
According to ICE, the nationwide transnational sweep nabbed 678 gang members in 168 cities. About 250 of those arrested were U.S. citizens; 80 guns were confiscated as well as $70,000 in cash.

==I'll do the math for you 678 - 250 US citizens = 428 undocumented workers doing jobs american's wont.


This is generally true of any minority living in poverty. Are you saying we should deport African-Americans? Do we find a settlement to shove all the white biker gangs into?
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:42 pm

I understand you want to shift the debate, you want to call them undocumented workers instead of criminals or illegal immigrants, but American citizens have specific rights granted to and enshrined by our government. Mexican citizens do not have the same rights as American citizens...

You want to start a thread about the illegal immigrants that contribute positively to American society go for it. This thread is about the illegal immigrants who contribute negatively to the life of American's specifically through crime... The relative rate of crime doesn't matter... they don't have a right to be here, so crime they contribute does not need to be tolerated.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:48 pm

kiryan wrote:I understand you want to shift the debate, you want to call them undocumented workers instead of criminals or illegal immigrants, but American citizens have specific rights granted to and enshrined by our government. Mexican citizens do not have the same rights as American citizens...

You want to start a thread about the illegal immigrants that contribute positively to American society go for it. This thread is about the illegal immigrants who contribute negatively to the life of American's specifically through crime... The relative rate of crime doesn't matter... they don't have a right to be here, so crime they contribute does not need to be tolerated.


I just don't see why you're even bringing it up. Sure, there are illegals joining gangs, but what are you trying to prove? Is there a point to posting these things?
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:06 pm

yes. to counter the rose colored glasses the left wants everyone to wear.

We don't call them illegal immigrants anymore, they are "citizens of mexico" or "undocumented worker" or people who "do the work American's won't do".

They are in fact breaking US law by being here... they do it intentionally... and many continue to break laws after they get here.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:15 pm

kiryan wrote:yes. to counter the rose colored glasses the left wants everyone to wear.

We don't call them illegal immigrants anymore, they are "citizens of mexico" or "undocumented worker" or people who "do the work American's won't do".

They are in fact breaking US law by being here... they do it intentionally... and many continue to break laws after they get here.


I don't think anyone's wearing rose colored glasses. We understand that people commit crime -- regardless of what country they are in; however, by picking out the minority, you're not making any claims outside what we already know -- that people commit crime regardless of what country they are in. So, again, what exactly is the point?
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:41 pm

The sad thing about crimes committed by illegal immigrants is that they weren't supposed to be here to commit the crime in the first place.

Illegal immigrants are simply illegally here. They should be deported assuming we can catch them.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:03 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:The sad thing about crimes committed by illegal immigrants is that they weren't supposed to be here to commit the crime in the first place.

Illegal immigrants are simply illegally here. They should be deported assuming we can catch them.


If they weren't selling drugs in those territories, somebody would. Murders and theft could be argued, but I don't think it would noticeably diminish the crime rate having only legal immigrants and deporting all the illegals.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:04 pm

Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:The sad thing about crimes committed by illegal immigrants is that they weren't supposed to be here to commit the crime in the first place.

Illegal immigrants are simply illegally here. They should be deported assuming we can catch them.


If they weren't selling drugs in those territories, somebody would. Murders and theft could be argued, but I don't think it would noticeably diminish the crime rate having only legal immigrants and deporting all the illegals.

Simply by reducing the population, we would already see decreased crime and rates. Higher population density is associated with higher rates of crime.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:32 pm

isn't that some sort of fallacy kifle?

if they didn't do it, someone would?

The point is not someone would do it, the point is they are doing it.

and the left does have rose colored glasses on... they hold up one shining immigrant example and gloss over the damage caused by the other 99... whether criminal, economic or otherwise.

The grady hospital example is perfect... they had to close down a dialysis clinic because every time a spot opened up an illegal immigrant with no ability to pay would take it. I forget the exact numbers but I want to say 40 illegal immigrants getting free services every year that was costing over 2 million. If those 40 illegal immigrants were not in the country or could be deported, 40 American's citizens could've received that service. Due to the illegal immigrants, the hospital closed the clinic reducing healthcare access for Americans.

That is a real harm...

Feel free to start a thread on GOOD that illegals are doing in our country. I'll be happy to consider that, but I'm going to continue to try and make everyone consider the bad affects of illegals... specifically in the crime.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:57 pm

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/human-r ... 70874.html

The approximately 50 patients are virtually all poor illegal immigrants who paid nothing for their treatments.

== dialysis treatment was estimated in other articles at 110k a year I believe.

The attorneys want the commission to advocate that the patients continue to receive treatment -- at the hospital's expense -- beyond Grady's Feb. 3 deadline to stop care.
...
Grady closed the outpatient dialysis unit in October, citing financial stress. It has since provided treatments for the patients through a private clinic called Fresenius.
...
The Grady controversy raises larger issues regarding the role of safety net hospitals in providing care to illegal immigrants.
...
“Nobody’s human rights are being violated by us enforcing our immigration laws," he said. "Illegal aliens cost Americans a great deal of money through health care. ... Can Grady be expected to care for anyone who escapes capture at our border, without end?”

== exactly. While it is horrific to essentially condemn these people to death... Why is it Grady's responsibility to provide the care... which is funded by the tax payer.. for people who are here illegally?

If I broke a law or committed fraud to receive 100k a year in free care... I would be in jail for felony theft... if I lied about where I lived to send my kids to a better school, I would be expected to pay back that money or face felony theft. If I sneak across the border and receive free care paid for by the tax payers of another country, its a matter of human rights.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:14 pm

Well, illegal immigrants are doing good in this country, that much I can tell you from personal relationships.

The issue of immigration is one of control, really.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:05 am

The issue of immigration is one of taking care of your responsibilities vs taking on new responsibilities.

The issue of immigration is one of human rights... does anyone and everyone have an intrinsic right to what is in America to the rights American citizens have.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:19 am

kiryan wrote:isn't that some sort of fallacy kifle?

if they didn't do it, someone would?

The point is not someone would do it, the point is they are doing it.

and the left does have rose colored glasses on... they hold up one shining immigrant example and gloss over the damage caused by the other 99... whether criminal, economic or otherwise.

The grady hospital example is perfect... they had to close down a dialysis clinic because every time a spot opened up an illegal immigrant with no ability to pay would take it. I forget the exact numbers but I want to say 40 illegal immigrants getting free services every year that was costing over 2 million. If those 40 illegal immigrants were not in the country or could be deported, 40 American's citizens could've received that service. Due to the illegal immigrants, the hospital closed the clinic reducing healthcare access for Americans.

That is a real harm...

Feel free to start a thread on GOOD that illegals are doing in our country. I'll be happy to consider that, but I'm going to continue to try and make everyone consider the bad affects of illegals... specifically in the crime.


Out of context, you're right, it is a fallacy; however, in the context of drug trade, it isn't; I'm simply implying economic rhetoric. If you remove the source of the supply, the demand does not necessarily diminish. The only thing that changes is the supplier. It happens all the time, even on the small scale. If a dealer gets popped around here, another springs up to replace him in days.

Again, not one person has ever stated that every immigrant, legal or illegal, abides by every law of the country. Nobody has ever stated that illegal immigrants always follow the law. You're creating a straw man. The fact that some illegals do bad things is peripheral to the issue of illegal immigration. If you want to argue illegal immigration, you're going to have to stick to relevant subtopics which bear impact upon the discussion. What you're doing in this thread is crafting some rose colored glasses, putting them on your oppositions face, and then attacking them because they're wearing them.

Now, see, the dialysis example works -- to an extent. It is relevant to the conversation and doesn't attempt to put words into people's mouths nor does it stack statistics. If you would stick to these types of arguments, things would be easier to discuss.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:47 am

I'm highlighting crime commited by illegal immigrants glossed over by the left.

Jobs American's won't do right? Thats all illegal immigrants are... people who do the jobs American's wont do. Not even illegal, merely "undocumented" workers. This is not a thread arguing for or against illegal immigration the benefit or detriment to society.

It simply highlights crimes committed by illegals (crimes other than fraud and being here illegally)
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:17 am

We gloss over a lot of crime in the US though. Just not when it comes to rich white people like Madoff or Lohan.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:54 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/22/re ... latestnews

13 illegals try to cross border dressed as marines in a van with a fake military license plate.

im stretching here, especially since the masterminds appear to be US citizens.... but impersonating military personel is probably a crime somewhere!
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:22 pm

Great, so you're blaming the Mexicans for American crimes? They are smuggling people across the border... probably going to end up as slaves. Good job Kiryan!
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:57 am

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/23/ic ... thern-va/#

More than 160 foreign nationals -- most of them illegal immigrants with criminal records -- were arrested in northern Virginia over a three-day enforcement surge involving federal, state and local police, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement Director John Morton said Wednesday.
The enforcement sweep, conducted between Sunday and Tuesday, ensnared men and women from 32 countries, including eight people who had been convicted of sex offenses.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Sarvis » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:55 pm

kiryan wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/23/ice-announces-immigration-arrests-northern-va/#

More than 160 foreign nationals -- most of them illegal immigrants with criminal records -- were arrested in northern Virginia over a three-day enforcement surge involving federal, state and local police, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement Director John Morton said Wednesday.
The enforcement sweep, conducted between Sunday and Tuesday, ensnared men and women from 32 countries, including eight people who had been convicted of sex offenses.


So eight people who were probably brought over by Americans and forced into the sex trade were further punished by the police.

Win/Win!
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:21 pm

And at the end of the day, illegals account for .000001% of the crime in this country. WE MUST STOP THE INVASION THAT IS DESTROYING THE MORAL FIBER OF THIS COUNTRY!!!

I think it's funny you're so hung up on illegals' crimes when the few hundred white collar criminals recently just literally destroyed our economy while the illegals' crimes touch maybe a few thousand people a year.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:31 pm

Shrug you can think its stupid all you want. I think its stupid that liberals go around trumpeting the cause of illegals like they can ONLY do good. Theres a good and a bad and no one on your side wants to talk about the bad.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Sarvis » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:20 pm

kiryan wrote:Shrug you can think its stupid all you want. I think its stupid that liberals go around trumpeting the cause of illegals like they can ONLY do good. Theres a good and a bad and no one on your side wants to talk about the bad.


No, we don't. We just understand that they are people. I know you think they are somehow evil just because they were born in Mexico... but they are no more evil than you are.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:58 pm

kiryan wrote:Shrug you can think its stupid all you want. I think its stupid that liberals go around trumpeting the cause of illegals like they can ONLY do good. Theres a good and a bad and no one on your side wants to talk about the bad.


No, it's not that they don't want to talk about the bad... maybe they do for political reasons, but it has nothing to do with the strength of their argument. In fact, as I've been trying to point out, the crimes illegals commit are insignificant. Basically, they are of statistical insignificance. If we were talking about ways to prevent disease, sterilizing your house every hour is not going to be brought up. Will it kill germs? Sure, but a normal person will not get sick from the germs floating around in their house on a daily basis. Therefore, the argument that one should sterilize their house every hour will never be brought up. It is insignificant.

Crimes committed by illegals are insignificant in number, so insignificant that bringing it up weakens your case in that it implies you rely on a weak argument to make an argument. Stick with dialysis, that's actually a decent argument. This argument just makes you look racist, separatist, and reliant upon insignificance to plead your case.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:17 pm

What is the basis of your claim that crime commited by illegals is insignificant? Even if you ignore the fact they are by definition illegal, you have a much higher incarceration rate (although not as high as African Americans) for hispanics (generalizing hispanics as illegals although this is plainly not true) than the general population... Where you can find statistics specific to illegal immigrants, you also find it higher on a per capita basis than the average population.

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010 ... ree-in-wa/

Washington State ranks 11th in the nation in the number of illegal immigrants with an estimated 150,000. They make up 2% of the state’s population, but account for 4.5% of those in Washington prisons. In Franklin county, 14% of the jail bookings are illegal immigrants.

Currently, over half of the individuals on the Washington State Patrol’s Most Wanted List are suspected illegal immigrants. 18 of the 26 on the list are Hispanic with no place of birth identified. Most are wanted for vehicular homicide and they have languished on the Most Wanted list for several years.

There are about 50,000 felony warrants currently issued in Washington State and according to a source in the U.S. Marshal’s office between 30-40 percent are believed to be illegal immigrants.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:52 pm

and here's another one

The graph and chart on page 2 is particularly good. California's entry was particularly notable given their massive budget deficit. If they could get rid of their illegal aliens in prison, they could save 8.3% of "incarceration days" which is a lot of money.

http://www.fairus.org/site/DocServer/cr ... docID=2321

Adult illegal aliens represented 3.1 percent of the total adult population of the country in 2003. By comparison, the illegal alien prison population represented 4.54 percent of the overall prison population. Therefore, deportable criminal aliens were nearly half again as likely to be incarcerated as their share of the population

== illegal immigrants 50% more likely to be incarcerated.


A lower incidence of crime should be expected from a foreign-born population that is largely legal immigrants and longterm nonimmigrants.

== because they are vetted so carefully

The same cannot, of course, be said for the illegal alien population. Their presence in the United States is based on their either illegally entering the country or entering under false pretenses. Those who sneak into the country undergo no form of screening for criminality or any other grounds for exclusion

== the legal / illegal immigrant problem in a nutshell.

and to head off some ridiculous side track of "well thats why we need a guest worker program that works". Do you think the people who are willing to break the law today are going to stop breaking the law tomorrow if there is a guest worker program that they don't qualify for? no so shut up. Secure the border first, implement the mechanisms that make it impossible for illegal immigrants to be in America. Then talk to me about a guest worker program. We have a law it needs to be enforced....

oh and this is just illegals who did something bad enough to actually go to jail.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:41 am

kiryan wrote:What is the basis of your claim that crime commited by illegals is insignificant? Even if you ignore the fact they are by definition illegal, you have a much higher incarceration rate (although not as high as African Americans) for hispanics (generalizing hispanics as illegals although this is plainly not true) than the general population... Where you can find statistics specific to illegal immigrants, you also find it higher on a per capita basis than the average population.

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010 ... ree-in-wa/

Washington State ranks 11th in the nation in the number of illegal immigrants with an estimated 150,000. They make up 2% of the state’s population, but account for 4.5% of those in Washington prisons. In Franklin county, 14% of the jail bookings are illegal immigrants.

Currently, over half of the individuals on the Washington State Patrol’s Most Wanted List are suspected illegal immigrants. 18 of the 26 on the list are Hispanic with no place of birth identified. Most are wanted for vehicular homicide and they have languished on the Most Wanted list for several years.

There are about 50,000 felony warrants currently issued in Washington State and according to a source in the U.S. Marshal’s office between 30-40 percent are believed to be illegal immigrants.


So you actually want me to believe that 2% of the states population is responsible for 30-40% of the crime? Seriously. Those numbers are skewed heavily in favor of demonizing illegals based on crime. Notice that you find phrases like "are believed to be illegal immigrants" and "are suspected illegal immigrants"? The first two statistics, 4.5% prison population and 14% jail bookings. How many of those are for being illegal immigrants?

Here's just a bit of rationale for you. The population of illegals is estimated at around 3% give or take a %. Now, please tell me try to tell me that 3% of the population can really be accountable for a significant portion of the crime here in the states. Like I said, their crime contribution here is insignificant. I would imagine a good percentage is drug related. And, as I have pointed out earlier, with drugs, you take out one, two more sprout up. If they weren't here, the drugs still would be, and there are more than enough people willing and wanting to sell them.

We also have to wonder, what are these statistics counting as crime? Driving without insurance? Murder? J-walking? Check fraud? Find me some solid statistics that illegals commit actual crime that in some way effects anything outside of stacking crime rate statistics with the fact that they are illegal or commit some petty crime like possession.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:38 pm

It was my impression that the illegal immigrant population was closer to 8% of the population.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:12 pm

From the 2010 numbers of 11.2 mil that I've found, that would make about 3.5%. Not sure if the numbers are correct, but I don't see there being much of a variation there more than 1 %.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:06 pm

The GAO places the number around 12 million based on census results. I plucked a 22 million number from what I recall was a RAND analysis which didn't rely purely on the results of a government survey. So your figure is backed by the GAO.

Anyway, on a side note, illegal immigration populations are not homogeneous throughout the United States. Border states have a much higher proportion of illegal immigrants.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Ragorn » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:06 pm

Also, the Washington DC suburbs. Lots, and lots, and lots here.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:00 am

Ragorn wrote:Also, the Washington DC suburbs. Lots, and lots, and lots here.

I noticed that as well. The food is delicious all of a sudden.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:48 am

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... eerjournal

==Well not my usual criminal illegal, but more of those jobs that even American's won't do?

Jaime Lopez used to earn $14 an hour, plus benefits, as a maintenance man for an office building outside Minneapolis.

He began working as an office cleaner on the night shift, earning $10.25 an hour, with benefits and SEIU membership.

== hmm so I wonder if any of his union dues ended up going to political candidates. Isn't that illegal?

After his promotion, he took out a mortgage on an $185,000 two-bedroom, cream-colored house, which he refurbished.

==Wonder how much he was making after the promotion.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:01 pm

kiryan wrote:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704355304576214443126694256.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_careerjournal

==Well not my usual criminal illegal, but more of those jobs that even American's won't do?

Jaime Lopez used to earn $14 an hour, plus benefits, as a maintenance man for an office building outside Minneapolis.

He began working as an office cleaner on the night shift, earning $10.25 an hour, with benefits and SEIU membership.

== hmm so I wonder if any of his union dues ended up going to political candidates. Isn't that illegal?

After his promotion, he took out a mortgage on an $185,000 two-bedroom, cream-colored house, which he refurbished.

==Wonder how much he was making after the promotion.


He was making $14/hr. It is stated clearly in both your article and your snippet here. He more than likely couldn't afford his house or his wife was making good money somewhere and somehow got a very low interest rate.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:01 pm

I find the trolling in this thread to be interesting. Nothing has been posted here to directly argue any of the crimes Kiryan has posted, or the immigration status of the accused. While I understand why people would find this thread to be distasteful, it still highlights a very important matter relating to illegal immigration:

That these people weren't supposed to be here to commit these crimes in the first place.

Many of you that have advocated gun control and government welfare programs have SUPPORTED these things using the exact same logic.

Gun Control: if there weren't guns, there wouldn't be gun crimes.
Welfare: if people had their basic needs provided, there wouldn't be theft

- or something along these lines.

And yet, when Kiryan makes the argument that if there weren't illegal immigrants, there wouldn't be crime by illegal immigrants, you get all butthurt over it.

Consistency, you would appear to have not.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:42 pm

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/15307 ... for-states

12k illegal aliens registered, 5k actually voted in Nov 2010.

voter fraud is a felony I believe.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Kifle » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:55 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:I find the trolling in this thread to be interesting. Nothing has been posted here to directly argue any of the crimes Kiryan has posted, or the immigration status of the accused. While I understand why people would find this thread to be distasteful, it still highlights a very important matter relating to illegal immigration:

That these people weren't supposed to be here to commit these crimes in the first place.

Many of you that have advocated gun control and government welfare programs have SUPPORTED these things using the exact same logic.

Gun Control: if there weren't guns, there wouldn't be gun crimes.
Welfare: if people had their basic needs provided, there wouldn't be theft

- or something along these lines.

And yet, when Kiryan makes the argument that if there weren't illegal immigrants, there wouldn't be crime by illegal immigrants, you get all butthurt over it.

Consistency, you would appear to have not.


I don't think I've made either argument.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:32 pm

Sorry, Kifle, I wasn't responding directly to anyone's post in particular and didn't intend to appear to respond to yours even though it followed your post.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:08 am

Sure they claim they're just mules and don't know, but guilty by association.

http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/c ... 0734f.html

Both men, who are Mexican citizens in the country illegally, appeared in court last Friday on a criminal complaint charging them with possession with intent to distribute heroin.

DEA Special Agent Diane Jenkins testified that law enforcement officers found about 3 kilos of heroin in six packages duct-taped in the engine compartment of the vehicle.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:36 am

"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:41 pm

illegal driving, hit the guy so hard it severed his leg and his leg ended up on a roof, 160 feet away. Then he fled the scene of the accident.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... crash.html

Cant find the article now, but bunch of folks busted for sex trafficing women from Brazil recently.

also, John McCain's quip that illegal immigrants may have started the Arizona wild fire. A million articles on it, but basically its a well known illegal immigrant strategy is to set diversions, sometimes fires. The huge fire is suspected to have been started in 3 separate locations by humans. The news is making hay out of McCains insinuation that it might've been illegals since they are known to do that. I'm going to just go ahead and blame them.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:59 pm

kiryan wrote:I'm going to just go ahead and blame them.


Well as long as your going to go ahead and blame them for anything you imagine they might have done.

Intellectual honesty... right.

Seriously Kiryan, is your point so weak that you have to rely on making shit up to try and prove it? You only make yourself look desperate and wrong when you do that shit.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:53 pm

Its funny sarvis, you say its illogical to make assumptions about who started these fires despite logical motives and historical evidence, but then strenuously defend assumptions about welfare rats who are only poor because of circumstances beyond their control.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:47 pm

kiryan wrote:Its funny sarvis, you say its illogical to make assumptions about who started these fires


Yes. It is. One of the most important tenets of our country is "Innocent until proven guilty."

Personally I think Republicans have plenty of motive. It's a big issue for them, and if they can claim a few Mexicans started a giant forest fire it only helps their campaigns right?

Or it could have been terrorists. They want to kill us all, and starting fires from three different locations requires a level of planning that random uneducated (according to you) Mexicans probably couldn't manage.
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Re: undocumented worker or criminal illegal

Postby kiryan » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:43 pm

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/im ... -6-27-2011

Border Patrol: Agent Spotted Fire near Border

== near the border. sure its a coincidence

he Border Patrol's statement comes after Cochise County Sheriff Larry Dever said he believes immigrants started the 47-square-mile Monument Fire near Sierra Vista, Ariz.

== pure speculation.. except he's a border patrol agent and deals with this shit. Lets call it a little better than an educated guess.

He explained on Fox News, "Illegals set diversion fires -- that's testimony before Congress. The Monument fire was set in a forest that was closed, so anyone who was there was there illegally." -- mccain

== In a forest that was closed to the public, near the border. Yep still circumstantial.

Investigators have determined the fire was caused by humans, but they haven't figured out who is responsible.

== Started by humans. Not necessarily illegal immigrants

The US Forest Service testified to Congress in 2006 that wildfires are sometimes started when illegal border crossers build campfires or intentionally set fires as a rescue signal or as a way to divert law enforcement.

== Historical pattern. A known tactic.

SO yea there is no proof at all. I guess that makes you the winner. lol.

Innocent until proven guilty. Wow there's some hipocrisy. Where was that when DHS removed 400 children from the polygamists in Texas? Where was that when Democrats were on liberal media outlets decrying the right wing extremism of the Gifford shooting? Where was that when they were villifying Sarah Palin during the 2008 campaign?

Innoncent until proven guilty, what a quaint concept.

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