lack of moral discipline leads to increased government rules

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Adriorn Darkcloak
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Re: lack of moral discipline leads to increased government rules

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:28 pm

Kifle wrote:Laws which are created through moral perspective are tyrannical and counterproductive to societal growth and sustainability. These laws should be removed.

Laws which are created through moral necessity are those which should stay -- because they are laws inherent in nature or created necessarily from society.


Corth/Kifle, how would you handle, using the above quotes, the following crime(?). Meaning, how would you defend/attack its legal existence.

If I walk in a mall with a loaded gun in my hand, I will be arrested.

Hopefully I'm making sense and you understand what I'm hoping you guys can do. Sorry, not finding the right words right now. It's not some trick question btw, but the answer might serve later for comparison.


P.S. As an aside, when making references to stem cell research, remember that the only issue is with human embryonic stem cell research, and the destruction of a human embryo/fetus. Adult stem cells, umbilical cord, amniotic fluid, etc. research is a-okay. The issue is with killing a human life in the name of progress...which is what some people want to set, a time on when human is human, etc. But just wanted to clarify the main terminology, sorry if it was obvious or whatnot.
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Kifle
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Re: lack of moral discipline leads to increased government rules

Postby Kifle » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:01 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:Conversely, disallowing stemcell research is something that hurts society.

A couple of points in response:

1) Stem cell research is allowed in the United States of America. There is no ban. This is a commonly believed myth. The ban is on federal funding. States can fund it. Private sources can fund it.
2) Allowing stemcell research could potentially harm society morally. The use of human embryos for research is dehumanizing and reduces the value of human life (perhaps not as much as it helps, but it's a factor to consider).



From my understanding, which, admittedly is limited, stem cell research is only possibe by harvesting stem cells from certain sources -- which extremely limit the research able to be done.

Again, that ONLY applies to federal funding.

And it's not a moral issue to use public funds to fund something the public does not support.


There are also states which ban it outright, such as North Dakota (I believe). Regardless, the statements stand true despite the limited limitations.
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Teflor Lyorian
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Re: lack of moral discipline leads to increased government rules

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:04 am

And about the part where it's wrong to take someone's wealth by force and spend it on something they believe to be wrong?
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Re: lack of moral discipline leads to increased government rules

Postby Kifle » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:31 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:And about the part where it's wrong to take someone's wealth by force and spend it on something they believe to be wrong?


Touche. I suppose, in this case, my line of rationale would lead to cutting of funding through taxes. But, then again, with my rationale, it would be tough to justify taxes at all, in most cases. However, with respect to North Dakota, I think my statements will stand true. Unless, of course, I'm wrong about that one as well -- which is entirely possible.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: lack of moral discipline leads to increased government rules

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:32 am

Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:And about the part where it's wrong to take someone's wealth by force and spend it on something they believe to be wrong?


Touche. I suppose, in this case, my line of rationale would lead to cutting of funding through taxes. But, then again, with my rationale, it would be tough to justify taxes at all, in most cases. However, with respect to North Dakota, I think my statements will stand true. Unless, of course, I'm wrong about that one as well -- which is entirely possible.

I don't think North Dakota was going to do a lot of stem cell research to begin with... But yes, I agree with you in respect to some states - which is why I value great diversity within the Union, strong state's rights, etc - because it allows us to try different things while still allowing people a greater say in their government.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
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Re: lack of moral discipline leads to increased government rules

Postby Kifle » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:01 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Kifle wrote:Laws which are created through moral perspective are tyrannical and counterproductive to societal growth and sustainability. These laws should be removed.

Laws which are created through moral necessity are those which should stay -- because they are laws inherent in nature or created necessarily from society.


Corth/Kifle, how would you handle, using the above quotes, the following crime(?). Meaning, how would you defend/attack its legal existence.

If I walk in a mall with a loaded gun in my hand, I will be arrested.

Hopefully I'm making sense and you understand what I'm hoping you guys can do. Sorry, not finding the right words right now. It's not some trick question btw, but the answer might serve later for comparison.


P.S. As an aside, when making references to stem cell research, remember that the only issue is with human embryonic stem cell research, and the destruction of a human embryo/fetus. Adult stem cells, umbilical cord, amniotic fluid, etc. research is a-okay. The issue is with killing a human life in the name of progress...which is what some people want to set, a time on when human is human, etc. But just wanted to clarify the main terminology, sorry if it was obvious or whatnot.


I don't think that those statements directly apply to the hypothetical, but if I were to try and categorize it, it would fall into the prior. The act of owning or carrying a gun does not infringe upon the liberties of others. Use of the gun in an attempt to directly or indirectly suspend or remove the liberties from another person(s) would fall under the latter. But this is speaking of the action as an action.

We could throw in other variables such as psychological distress caused by seeing a gun in a man's hand outside of a proper place with which to use the gun; however, attempting to find the "right" in the situation would become untenable in either case. Regardless, I would categorize the arrest to be inappropriate as you have all the right to own and carry a gun given you are not attempting to use it in such a way as to remove or suspend the liberties of others.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
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Re: lack of moral discipline leads to increased government rules

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:09 am

It is pretty unsafe by definition. Even the NRA agrees that it's not safe.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
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Re: lack of moral discipline leads to increased government rules

Postby Kifle » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:12 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:It is pretty unsafe by definition. Even the NRA agrees that it's not safe.


I don't think that's in question. It's unsafe for me to run on my roof, but it is entirely legal.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: lack of moral discipline leads to increased government rules

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:16 am

Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:It is pretty unsafe by definition. Even the NRA agrees that it's not safe.


I don't think that's in question. It's unsafe for me to run on my roof, but it is entirely legal.

My point was that subjecting to the public to an unusually high degree of danger is illegal for good reason.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
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Re: lack of moral discipline leads to increased government rules

Postby Kifle » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:25 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:It is pretty unsafe by definition. Even the NRA agrees that it's not safe.


I don't think that's in question. It's unsafe for me to run on my roof, but it is entirely legal.

My point was that subjecting to the public to an unusually high degree of danger is illegal for good reason.


Carrying a gun in a mall is as unusually high in the degree of danger as driving a semi full of explosive gas down a highway. I still don't see your point. Here's a question: What if Adriorn walked into a gun store with a loaded gun and the store was full of guns and the owner had a loaded gun in his hand while a customer also had a loaded gun and was walking to the firing range? There is only danger with intent. Otherwise, it is just a guy and a piece of metal.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: lack of moral discipline leads to increased government rules

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:32 pm

Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:It is pretty unsafe by definition. Even the NRA agrees that it's not safe.


I don't think that's in question. It's unsafe for me to run on my roof, but it is entirely legal.

My point was that subjecting to the public to an unusually high degree of danger is illegal for good reason.


Carrying a gun in a mall is as unusually high in the degree of danger as driving a semi full of explosive gas down a highway. I still don't see your point. Here's a question: What if Adriorn walked into a gun store with a loaded gun and the store was full of guns and the owner had a loaded gun in his hand while a customer also had a loaded gun and was walking to the firing range? There is only danger with intent. Otherwise, it is just a guy and a piece of metal.

Keyword there is unusual. You'd probably get kicked out of most ranges for coming in with a loaded weapon, just as an FYI.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)

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