Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Minimum moderation and heated debates.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Postby Corth » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:22 am

Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Postby Kifle » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:22 am

Wow, that was a great article. Unfortunately, all it does is make me angry. There's no recourse for me or you here.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Postby Corth » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:23 pm

I generally think that human progress is marked by a kind of trial and error process. Two steps forward, one step back. Generally things get better but once in a while we fuck up. That's where we need to figure out what happened and fix it so that it doesn't happen again. After the great depression you had some serious regulation imposed regarding trading stock on margin. After WWII you had the creation of the UN and treaties concerning humane conduct during warfare, etc. And after this financial collapse we have.... what do we have? The people that caused it weren't punished (either criminally or financially). There hasn't been any type of significant regulatory changes. Things were fucked up but what was done to make sure that it doesn't happen again?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Postby kiryan » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:49 pm

I don't know how to articulate my sentiments.

basically, its share holders fault because they don't have any idea what they are investing in.

and indirectly also government's fault for regulating the market... creating the illusion that everyone on the exchange has credibility and the government is ensuring there is no "wrong doing". and for bailing them out.

In terms of criminal charges... fraud is often difficult to prove vs a mistake. its not criminal to lose money or to make bad business decisions... I think a solution might be to reign in "settlments". I truly hate plea deals and settlements. Take them all to trial even if you lose money. Justice is justice and if they walk, fine, but don't let them get away with it because you're not sure you're going to win. Take it to trial and find out if what they did was legal or not...

Limit the attorney fees as well so companies can't hire 40 private lawyers to inundate the regulatory agency and expect to have the state pay $500 per hour per lawyer if they win... or grant the regulatory agency an equal amount of money as the dendendant spends with provisions that if regulatory wins, the private business will pay the government's legal costs + the fines. If the defense wants to hire 40 lawyers, then the government will have 40 lawyers and when they win, the defense will pay for it.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:21 pm

Because it's not illegal to be a total douchebag so long as you follow the law in a defensible manner.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Postby Corth » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:24 am

It's entirely possible that these people didn't commit crimes. If there isn't a law on the books prohibiting certain conduct then you can go ahead and do it. The government can't retroactively enact criminal legislation and charge you with it.

My bigger problem is that nothing has been done structurally to address the situation. My own personal preference would have been to allow these banks that got themselves into trouble to fail. Things would undoubtedly be more difficult in the short term.. but life would go on, and I think in the long term we would all be better off for it. Shareholders who had been burned in the past would apply more scrutiny upon management. Management would know that there would be no savior from DC to fix their mistakes. I think in the long term it would create a more prudent business environment.

BUT, even if you go the regulation route, we would be better off for it. If you aren't willing to let the free market govern itself then you need something else to do the governing. So where is the regulation?! What we have now is basically a system that is unchanged from before. Given the enormity of what happened, how can we not learn any lessons?

And actually - this is one topic where I find myself more often than not standing with the Dems. The Republicans did pretty much everything they could to protect Wall Street and Wall Street didn't deserve that assistance.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:22 pm

/agree ...

however, just because we haven't a specific law that makes some unforseen conduct explicity illegal... doesn't mean that criminal punishment isn't warranted (even if it can't be justified).

There are a whole group of people who believe at least some of these guys should be in jail... the only thing that keeps me from agreeing is that I don't want to be living in China next year and prosecuting people for "harming the state's interests"... even if it would be more "just" for them to lose everything like so many people did.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Postby Corth » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:33 am

Not sure exactly what you mean by distinguishing unjustified from unwarranted. Are you saying that they deserve jail even if we can't put them there? I guess I would agree with that.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:46 pm

I'm saying that if you created, supported, enabled the destruction of trillions of dollars of wealth... that even if you had the best of intentions and followed very single law... it is reasonable for you to at a minimum lose your wealth and criminal penalties... given the harm... are not out of the question from a sense of karma, just rewards, justice... I however can't envision a justice system that would be "just" in its metting out of this justice.

I would not be prepared to pass judgement on any specific person/ceo as a result of this crisis from trial through newspaper, but its not unreasonable to say there are consequences for actions that are even accidental or negligent... we have plenty of precedent for that.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Postby Corth » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:17 pm

Well.. there is a prohibition against ex-post facto criminal prosecution in the Constitution. You can't apply criminal liability retroactively. So regardless of how bad they were, if it wasn't criminal at the time, they aren't criminals.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:23 pm

i agree, and its the only justice system in the world that I think creates a fair playing field and is one aspect that limits governmnet's power.

However, can you not see that there was a great amount of "injustice" that occured... yet no one other than investors and tax payers were culpable for that injustice?

Imagine if millions of people were killed because of an elaborate decision system where no one person was culpable under law. can you not see that there is something fundamentally flawed if no one is held accountable for millions of people dieing? even if it is "impossible" without compromising the foundations fo that justice system?
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:05 am

"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)

Return to “Current Events & Politics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests