Obama's Treasury Sec: Obama's budget is not sustainable

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Obama's Treasury Sec: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Corth » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:31 am

Last edited by Corth on Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Sarvis » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:59 pm

Are you wowing that the proposed budget was meant to shock Congress into action, or that the Republican only cared about showing how bad it was didn't show any desire to take action at all?

Though yes, that is fucking shitty. From both sides.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:06 pm

The US has never had a sustainable budget. Politics dictates that the people's money be spent or cut on whatever gets the votes of the people. Bush spent unsustainably on post 9/11 measures. Clinton cut unsustainably on our intelligence and defense capabilities. Reagan cut taxes too deeply and ended up having to raise them halfway back up.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Corth » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:50 pm

So what you are saying, Teflor, is that each succeeding president kicks the can down the road for the next guy to deal with. That sounds healthy.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:46 pm

Corth wrote:So what you are saying, Teflor, is that each succeeding president kicks the can down the road for the next guy to deal with. That sounds healthy.

Correct. I'm not making a value judgement, just an observation.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:53 pm

I started a thread on it... but yea its basically bullshit.

Geithner's numbers...

Obama's budget... calls for increasing the debt EVERY year for the next 10 years.

interest payments in 2021 are 850 billion a year from 200 billion today...

the budget is "balanced" in 2017 not counting the 600 billion in interest that year.

spending and debt go up every year in all 10 years (not necessarily as a % of GDP)

the budget ASSUMES the bush tax cuts expire in 2 years, and ASSUMES that the meidcare doc fix expires in 2 years (causing reimbursements to drop by 25+%) ASSUMES that the economy grows at a rate that is unlikely and god knows how many other obviously false assumptions...

and this is our CEO, our President of the United States of America's plan to win the future, to get the country on a sustainable path. It is a COMPLETE AND SHEER FAILURE in LEADERSHIP. Its irresponsible, but it does remind me of how unions negotiate. Ask for and fight for everything, then blame the automaker when the company collapses because they gave you what you demanded..
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Ragorn » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:47 pm

I guess it's a good thing we just cut taxes then, right? Our budget is unsustainable, but we feel that the top 1% is being unfairly represented and deserves more discretionary income.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:56 pm

Here's an idea, instead of taking money from the 50% of people who pay 97% of taxes, maybe we could take it from the 50% that pays 3% of all taxes.

Or even crazier, maybe we could actually start drilling for oil again.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Sarvis » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:06 pm

kiryan wrote:Here's an idea, instead of taking money from the 50% of people who pay 97% of taxes, maybe we could take it from the 50% that pays 3% of all taxes.

Or even crazier, maybe we could actually start drilling for oil again.


How about we take 70% of the taxes from the people who control 70% of the money?

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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:40 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:Here's an idea, instead of taking money from the 50% of people who pay 97% of taxes, maybe we could take it from the 50% that pays 3% of all taxes.

Or even crazier, maybe we could actually start drilling for oil again.


How about we take 70% of the taxes from the people who control 70% of the money?

Image - http://www.businessinsider.com/15-chart ... e-wealth-2

Taxing wealth would be a separate issue, I'm not necessarily uncomfortable with that.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:04 pm

I could support that (especially if it was based on income not total wealth)

but isn't that basically the situation today then according to your graph?

So why do you want to hike taxes for only the top?
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Sarvis » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:16 pm

Actually they are only paying about 68%, so they are around 3% short. - http://www.american.com/archive/2007/no ... -the-taxes

Of course, that's looking at income which is also what you want. Which is kind of retarded, actually. Ever see the old Cheers episode where the millionaire only paid himself $1/year to avoid taxes?
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:33 pm

A millionaire doesn't live on $1. He has more income and the IRS would and should challenge that tax return. John Kerry paid himself $125k from his scorp and pocketed 2.5 million as "investment gains" at 15%.

I organized my business as an Scorp for the same reason.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Sarvis » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:38 pm

kiryan wrote:A millionaire doesn't live on $1.


Not 1$ of income, no. He has money though... millions, in fact.

He has more income and the IRS would and should challenge that tax return. John Kerry paid himself $125k from his scorp and pocketed 2.5 million as "investment gains" at 15%.

I organized my business as an Scorp for the same reason.


Yes, exactly. So the wealthiest people in America are paying 68% of their under-reported INCOME while having 71% of the money in our economy. (And I've seen higher estimates than 71% of the wealth, that was just the first one I found today.)
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:48 pm

Are you saying that if I made 1 million and paid 50% tax on it, and saved the rest, that next year I should pay 50% tax on my 500k even though I didn't make any money? then the next year on my 250k again having made $0?

If you've paid taxes on the money you put into the bank... why should you have to pay taxes on those dollars again the next year... simply because you have money? No I can't agree with that. Thats a formula that encourages you spend and discourages you to save and plan for the future.

Now if you expect me to pay taxes on realized gains from interest or investments made with that mil sure... but no I shouldn't have to pay 50% tax on an income of 10k because I have 1 million in the bank.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Sarvis » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:03 am

kiryan wrote:Are you saying that if I made 1 million and paid 50% tax on it, and saved the rest, that next year I should pay 50% tax on my 500k even though I didn't make any money? then the next year on my 250k again having made $0?

If you've paid taxes on the money you put into the bank... why should you have to pay taxes on those dollars again the next year... simply because you have money? No I can't agree with that. Thats a formula that encourages you spend and discourages you to save and plan for the future.

Now if you expect me to pay taxes on realized gains from interest or investments made with that mil sure... but no I shouldn't have to pay 50% tax on an income of 10k because I have 1 million in the bank.




" John Kerry paid himself $125k from his scorp and pocketed 2.5 million as "investment gains" at 15%. "
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:01 pm

I don't know exactly what how it works in his situation... but if John Kerry took that 2.5 million out of his scorp, or otherwise used it as his personal piggy bank, then it should be counted and taxed as income. If it was unrealized gains in his scorp, I would allow it to be considered like unrealized stock market gains... ie not taxed.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:31 pm

Kind of a tired argument here.

Yes, our country has a progressive tax system. The progressive tax system was designed so that people on the lower end of the income ladder would have access to enough of their income to support food and housing expenses. Over the years, various administrations have used "tax breaks" as incentives or fishhooks for votes, and now our tax code is thoroughly convoluted. Data on taxation is so varied that you can support almost any hypothesis by selectively presenting statistics. The top 1% of earners pay 70% of income tax, while at the same time, the top 10% of earners pay a lower than average percentage of their income in tax. Do we tax them more? Less? Keep it the same? Is it fair? Unfair?

If anything, the reform that our tax code needs most is the closing of loopholes that individuals can use to avoid paying taxes on parts of their income. If only it were that easy.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:31 pm

I agree that we need to reform tax code. A flat tax where everyone pays their share is what I advocate for. Say 10% across the board, 10% of a million is $100k, 10% of $10,000 is $1,000.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:28 pm

I don't mind progressive taxation personally. I'm not a top 1% earner, so..... lettin' the rich white folk pay for my overreaching, abusive government....
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:34 pm

kiryan wrote:I agree that we need to reform tax code. A flat tax where everyone pays their share is what I advocate for. Say 10% across the board, 10% of a million is $100k, 10% of $10,000 is $1,000.


So Kerry, who lowers his nominal income through that S-Corp thing, will pay 12,000 while a family working 4 jobs to keep fed will pay $1000 and no longer be able to eat 3 meals a day. Sounds perfectly fair.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:38 pm

nononononono

john kerry would file taxes on 2.625 million (2.5m + 120k). That's his real income regardless of the shennigans.

Now if he kept the 2.5m money in the company (presumably for future expansion investment or whatnot), then yes he would pay taxes only 120k... but when he did finally convert those company earnings (value) into personal income/wealth... he would pay taxes on whatever that portion is regardless of when it was made.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:39 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:I agree that we need to reform tax code. A flat tax where everyone pays their share is what I advocate for. Say 10% across the board, 10% of a million is $100k, 10% of $10,000 is $1,000.


So Kerry, who lowers his nominal income through that S-Corp thing, will pay 12,000 while a family working 4 jobs to keep fed will pay $1000 and no longer be able to eat 3 meals a day. Sounds perfectly fair.

If you have 4 jobs and only make $10,000, either nothing or everything about your life is fair.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:54 pm

kiryan wrote:I agree that we need to reform tax code. A flat tax where everyone pays their share is what I advocate for. Say 10% across the board, 10% of a million is $100k, 10% of $10,000 is $1,000.

It would be amusing if the flat tax ever passed. How would Republicans solve economic problems if they couldn't impose more tax cuts on billionaires?
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:08 pm

Its not clear to me that republicans are against ALL taxes as you suggest... rather they are against high taxes.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Corth » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:17 pm

I vote for flat rate tax. Figure out how much money the government needs, divide it by the number of people in the country, and voila, everyone pays that amount. Why should anyone have to pay more or less than anyone else for the same services? If you can't afford it then you work for the government a few hours a week to make it up.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:46 pm

Corth wrote:I vote for flat rate tax. Figure out how much money the government needs, divide it by the number of people in the country, and voila, everyone pays that amount. Why should anyone have to pay more or less than anyone else for the same services? If you can't afford it then you work for the government a few hours a week to make it up.


So indentured servitude. Great!
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:57 pm

so its indentured servitude if you have to pay for what you get? only because you require them to have those services. If they weren't forced to consume, they wouldn't have to pay.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Corth » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:38 am

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:I vote for flat rate tax. Figure out how much money the government needs, divide it by the number of people in the country, and voila, everyone pays that amount. Why should anyone have to pay more or less than anyone else for the same services? If you can't afford it then you work for the government a few hours a week to make it up.


So indentured servitude. Great!


Pay your taxes deadbeat!
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Corth » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:39 am

kiryan wrote:so its indentured servitude if you have to pay for what you get? only because you require them to have those services. If they weren't forced to consume, they wouldn't have to pay.


I can promise you that if the majority had to actually pay for all those services they enjoy, they would be electing politicians who promise to DRASTICALLY cut spending.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:45 pm

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/CBO-Obama ... et=&ccode=

CBO: Obama understates deficits by $2.3 trillion

underestimates future budget deficits by more than $2 trillion over the upcoming decade.

The estimate from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office says that if Obama's February budget submission is enacted into law it would produce deficits totaling $9.5 trillion over 10 years -- an average of almost $1 trillion a year.
...
The difference is chiefly because CBO has a less optimistic estimate of how much the government will collect in tax revenues, partly because the administration has rosier economic projections.
...
But CBO predicts that the deficit never gets below 4 percent of gross domestic product. That means that by the time 2021 arrives, the portion of the debt held by investors and foreign countries will reach a dangerously high 87 percent. And, as a result, interest costs for the government would explode from $214 billion this year to almost $1 trillion by decade's end.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:19 pm

My god this article is stupid. The solution to the deficit, VAT tax.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deborah-s ... 37507.html

No one wants to raise taxes but sometimes it has to be done.

== really? why does it have to be done? because we can't cut spending?

The only solution is adding a value added tax (VAT) targeted 100% to debt reduction.

== right to cure the deficit, its the only way to pay off the deficit, implement a new tax instead of cutting the spending that causes the deficit.

once a target -- say 55 percent GDP is met. Trigger it again when if it inched past 60 percent.

== ok sounds reasonable. Keeps them from just spending more and raising taxes right? Right? RIGHT? really how do they get away publishing this crap. An automatic triggered increase or triggered vote on raising the tax based on the size of the deficit means they keep spending more and the taxes keep goign up.

This would keep Americans even more attentive to government spending, and it would send a signal to the world that we are serious about deficit spending and debt reduction.

== maybe she missed the 2010 elections? Maybe she missed the formation of the tea party? I thought that was a pretty damn big signal. damn academic dipshits.

Today our debt is growing faster than our economy.

== uh huh, so the way you cut debt is stop incurring it which can either be earn more money or spend less. Of the two, spending less is what works at my house.

This high debt puts our economy, prosperity and national security in danger.

== yes, so please stop enacting new social progarms... even if you want to claim it reduces debt caused by the social programs you implemented 50 years ago. the social programs were the problem in the first place. if you weren't paying for people's healthcare, you wouldn't have to pay for condoms to "reduce" the deficit caused by paying for their healthcare.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Corth » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:31 am

Huffington Post Chick wrote:The only solution is adding a value added tax (VAT) targeted 100% to debt reduction.


Nope. The only solution is to inflate away the value of the US currency. A serious attempt to pay down debt at current values would be more than the public could stand in terms of tax increases.

That being said - The VAT tax is certainly preferable over income taxes. I would be interested in proposals for a VAT tax as a replacement for existing taxation, not necessarily as a supplement.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:32 pm

Corth wrote:
Huffington Post Chick wrote:The only solution is adding a value added tax (VAT) targeted 100% to debt reduction.


Nope. The only solution is to inflate away the value of the US currency. A serious attempt to pay down debt at current values would be more than the public could stand in terms of tax increases.

That being said - The VAT tax is certainly preferable over income taxes. I would be interested in proposals for a VAT tax as a replacement for existing taxation, not necessarily as a supplement.

Geithner seems to agree. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... rkets.html

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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:00 pm

Corth wrote:
Huffington Post Chick wrote:The only solution is adding a value added tax (VAT) targeted 100% to debt reduction.


Nope. The only solution is to inflate away the value of the US currency. A serious attempt to pay down debt at current values would be more than the public could stand in terms of tax increases.

That being said - The VAT tax is certainly preferable over income taxes. I would be interested in proposals for a VAT tax as a replacement for existing taxation, not necessarily as a supplement.


Yeah, that's a great idea if you want to slow down a consumer driven economy and make poor people even more poor!
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Re: Obama's Treasury Suspect: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:43 pm

I don't like a VAT vs income tax... sales taxes are inherent regressive because poor people spend 100% of what they earn and therefore subject 100% of their income to sales tax.

although I'd probably support a flat VAT vs the current income tax and its complexities and loop holes... I'm very wary at any promise to eliminate an income tax (a well known and accepted tax) and gain acceptance of a currently unknown and very unacceptable tax... My fear would be they could bring the income tax back and people wouldn't dispute it as fiercely since its familiar.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Sec: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Corth » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:00 pm

You can make VAT more progressive by charging different rates for different goods. For instance, household goods could be exempt or charged at a lower rate, while other 'luxury' goods can be charged at higher rates. That being said, we need some more regressive taxes so that poor people consider their own bank account before voting. If you only enjoy services and never have to pay for them, you will continue to vote for liberal democrats who promise the world and expect 'the rich' to pay for it.

Consumer recovery is smoke and mirrors, Sarvis. We can't spend our way out of the difficulties we face. If anything we should be encouraging more capital accumulation (saving), which is exactly what a consumption tax (sales or VAT) accomplishes. We want our people to have sufficient resources to create businesses and invest in productive ventures. Or do you think that it's a good thing that people are broke or even worse, in debt, so they can have their 60 inch plasmas?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Sec: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:28 pm

Corth wrote:You can make VAT more progressive by charging different rates for different goods.


The biggest advantage of VAT is that it simplifies the tax code. Changing the rate for different goods removes that advantage completely, and probably makes it worse than our own tax code. (ie. Strawberries are 1% VAT, Strawberry Smoothies are 1.5% (+.5% for each "supplement" added,) while bottled grocery store "strawberry" smoothies are 5% because no actual strawberries are used. )


Consumer recovery is smoke and mirrors, Sarvis. We can't spend our way out of the difficulties we face. If anything we should be encouraging more capital accumulation (saving), which is exactly what a consumption tax (sales or VAT) accomplishes. We want our people to have sufficient resources to create businesses and invest in productive ventures.


This has the same flaw as tax breaks for the rich: Available investment money doesn't create new businesses unless there are customers who want to buy the new products.


Or do you think that it's a good thing that people are broke or even worse, in debt, so they can have their 60 inch plasmas?


You've got me there.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Sec: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Corth » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:44 pm

Simplicifation is only one benefit of the VAT. Penalizing consumption as opposed to income is another.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Obama's Treasury Sec: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:45 pm

Corth wrote:Simplicifation is only one benefit of the VAT. Penalizing consumption as opposed to income is another.



Available investment money doesn't create new businesses unless there are customers who want to buy the new products.
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Re: Obama's Treasury Sec: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:44 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:Simplicifation is only one benefit of the VAT. Penalizing consumption as opposed to income is another.

Available investment money doesn't create new businesses unless there are customers who want to buy the new products.

What country does this guy live in?
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If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
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Re: Obama's Treasury Sec: Obama's budget is not sustainable

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:06 pm

If its not flat tax, I can't support it for the explanation Sarvis suggested (3 different tax rates for "strawberry" products) and you're point as well (the poor have no skin in the game).

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