Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

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Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:41 am

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/201 ... -plan.html

I'm surprised none of the registered democrats on the forum haven't started a thread about what is happening to planned parenthood. A "bipartisan" majority in the house, composed primarily of Republicans have voted to block Federal funds from going to Planned Parenthood.

While this may not be a big deal in most areas of the nation - as all of the services of Planned Parenthood can be obtained from other providers, in some underserved communities, Planned Parenthood may be the last chance for some women to find abortion services - unless, you know, someone drives them somewhere else... or they take a bus...
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:11 pm

I have misgivings about this and what happened to ACORN.

Both provided a lot of services not all of which are bad. I do think they get favored treatment by democrats vs a competitor... but I'm not so sure its so gross as to be an issue and that its any different than any large organization that has 'networked' and lobbied over the years to get favored treatment or be in position to work the system to get a special deal or no bid contract...

Both of these organizations probably 80-99% of the people are good hard working, law abiding and are just working in the public's interest. however, their mission attracts that 1% who are extremists.

I can't remember what organization I was reading about, I think it was religious, but a few years ago, an organization was talking specifically about protecting itself from people who feverently support their cause... they want normal people who want to help but screened out people who were "too passionate"... They did not want extreme people who may "take over" their organization because it would endanger the cause.

For example, lets say you run a union, do you want the guys who throw nails into the driveway (so scabs will have their tires punctured) or beat up peaceful protestors at a tea party rally playing on your side? Sure they'll drum up support, they'll donate more money, they'll be the loudest voice at the rally... but if they get caught doing something illegal, your entire organization can implode overnight... guilt by association.

Religous people have their abortion doctor killers and their funeral protestors, their waco's and their polygamists... do you really want to stand shoulder to shoulder with the polygamists or the funeral protestors to defeat gay marriage? The damage to your movement would be immeasurable even if you win.

The difficulty is determining whether ACORN or PP is engaged widespread in helping under age girls get abortions... or treatment for sexual diseases. I think probably no, but I do think they have a culture that holds the "right" to these services higher than anything else and that position is why they are facing this attack. They forgot that their mission is to help these women and children... not just help them get an abortion.

I believe the exact same is true of ACORN. They allowed a culture to take root that is "minorities are getting screwed by everyone and they deserve everything we can get for them." The result, voter fraud, housing fraud and a general disregard for "law" they doesn't help the people they serve get what they want.

as a result of my belief that their culture was allowed to become extreme and the absolute highest standards must be maintained if they take tax dollars.. both of these organizations should be defunded... even though it would probably be a net loss for America in general.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:23 pm

kiryan wrote: engaged widespread in helping under age girls get abortions... or treatment for sexual diseases.


Wait, you have a problem with treating STDs?

Not deliberately trying to pick out a single thing from what you said, and I can understand your position on abortion... but... I don't get it?
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:33 pm

Treatment for STDs specifically in support of what is purported to be an illegal activity (prostitution) is what I mean there... I would further believe that parents should be notified (and required to give approval for) ANY medical treatment administered to their children... including abortion.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:44 pm

kiryan wrote:Treatment for STDs specifically in support of what is purported to be an illegal activity (prostitution) is what I mean there... I would further believe that parents should be notified (and required to give approval for) ANY medical treatment administered to their children... including abortion.


Hmm... shortsighted, but ok. Also, even if many of the recipients were prostitutes... I'm betting PP doesn't ask, and even if they did the whores would just lie so....
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:12 pm

Technically, since it's illegal to use Federal funding to fund abortions, ostensibly, the abortions provided by Planned Parenthood shouldn't be at all affected.

Still, I think it's duplicitous of Planned Parenthood to bundle together things the vast majority of Americans would support (HIV testing, birth control, reproductive health services) with a service only a minority of Americans would support (abortion). This is why Planned Parenthood is asking that people support "Planned Parenthood" and not the abortions with which they are known to provide.

If Planned Parenthood separated the abortion services, not only do I believe that they would continue to receive public funds, they might even get more.


Beyond that, the other issues are that many Federal funds are being cut, and we're overspending as is. So here's what I think the real issue is: so long as Planned Parenthood chooses to shield abortions by sacrificing public health services - really, they're responsible for damaging their own reputation and putting at risk those who need the services other than abortion.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:21 pm

Sarvis wrote:Hmm... shortsighted, but ok. Also, even if many of the recipients were prostitutes... I'm betting PP doesn't ask, and even if they did the whores would just lie so....


Short sighted? I can see your argument, but lets take it to the extent demonsrtated in the events that actually transpired.

A pimp brings in an underage girl and asks about abortion and STD treatment...

now... using your argument, we'd treat the STD and not tell anyone because even though its illegal, we want to encourage them to come in and get treatment. It would be short sighted to turn them in because a future pimp, child hooker wouldnt' come in for treatment.

Sorry, I can't go there with you even if I agree its shortsighted. I believe we must pay for the consequences of our actions. If you're a prostitute, you have to pay the cost... even if that means you don't get treatment because your unwilling to pay those costs. If you're the victim, like with the child, then by getting treatment, the people responsible will eventually be caught.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:26 pm

kiryan wrote:If you're the victim, like with the child, then by getting treatment, the people responsible will eventually be caught.



Prostitutes usually ARE the victim. These girls didn't choose that life, they are often forced into it by their pimp and don't know how to get out. Yet somehow you think they need the additional punishment of suffering STDs? As well as spreading them around even more?
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:03 pm

ok.. so now they have a decision

They can choose not getting treatment or getting treatment

A) pimp getting caught
B) you getting thrown in jail
C) support / social services
D) some combination of ABCD

If you're saying we have to treat them with no questions asked because they might not choose to get treatment rather than face ABCD, then thats unfortunate. You can't help someone who is unwilling to help themselves... and just giving them treatment means ABCD doesn't happen. In the case of an underage girl being victimized into providing prostitution services, its absolutely and uneqivocably unacceptable. Its enabling.

You want to invoke sympathy, treat the disease and ignore the bigger problem... I can't support that. I
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Kifle » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:15 pm

kiryan wrote:ok.. so now they have a decision

They can choose not getting treatment or getting treatment

A) pimp getting caught
B) you getting thrown in jail
C) support / social services
D) some combination of ABCD

If you're saying we have to treat them with no questions asked because they might not choose to get treatment rather than face ABCD, then thats unfortunate. You can't help someone who is unwilling to help themselves... and just giving them treatment means ABCD doesn't happen. In the case of an underage girl being victimized into providing prostitution services, its absolutely and uneqivocably unacceptable. Its enabling.

You want to invoke sympathy, treat the disease and ignore the bigger problem... I can't support that. I


Lets use an analogy that will be a bit harder for you to take the moral high ground:

Do we take out medic units from the army because war is wrong? Sure, war has a purpose, but it is not necessary in terms of living. All of these countries COULD just talk things out, but we don't. We wage war. So, do we take out medic units from the army because war is wrong? No. So why take away STD treatment because prostitution is wrong. If we take away the medic units, there will still be war -- the outcome will just be more deadly. If we remove STD treatment from prostitutes, there will still be prostitutes -- the outcome will just be more deadly.

You don't have to be sympathetic to prostitution for the prostitutes to get treatment. What you have to do is realize that the married guy that just got aids from his hooker may just take and give it to his wife, the girl at the coffee shop he's going to bang tomorrow, her boyfriend, his possible child on the way, the boyfriends mistress, her boyfriend, his girlfriend down the road when he realizes she cheated on him, but he wont know for at least another 6 months because HIV can sometimes be undetectable. And, by the time the first few in the chain find out what they have, they've spread it to about 100 other people through indirect contact. So, how again is removing this treatment a good thing, ethically, preservationally, or economically?
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:17 pm

kiryan wrote:ok.. so now they have a decision

They can choose not getting treatment or getting treatment

A) pimp getting caught
B) you getting thrown in jail
C) support / social services
D) some combination of ABCD

If you're saying we have to treat them with no questions asked because they might not choose to get treatment rather than face ABCD, then thats unfortunate. You can't help someone who is unwilling to help themselves... and just giving them treatment means ABCD doesn't happen. In the case of an underage girl being victimized into providing prostitution services, its absolutely and uneqivocably unacceptable. Its enabling.

You want to invoke sympathy, treat the disease and ignore the bigger problem... I can't support that. I


A) Is an assumption, you can't guarantee the pimp getting caught/punished
B) Punishing the victim, now THAT's moral authority!
C) After the jail time, I suppose?
D) The PIMP not letting them come because:
i) He'd risk getting arrested
ii) He'd definitely lose his property
iii) He'd definitely lose his property

Get it Kiryan? Try to do more and they end up doing nothing.

You want to rescue these girls and stop the practice? You're better off setting up an organization to go pick up hookers at night, and then just take them to a safe house and give them some psychological care until they are ready to ID the pimp. Then get the pimp off the streets.

But no, you want to ensure the victim is punished while not doing anything to address the actual problem.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:31 pm

By treating the hooker you enable the practice and ensure that it continues.

There may be better ways to accomplish teh same goal, but it doesn't mean you can't do this one act.

The fallacy in your argument is that you assume that turning them in results in a worse outcome and that not treating them results in a better outcome.

Treating them and sending them back to their pimp may result in their death or at least continued victimization. Turning them in, may result in the victiminzation of the victim by the state... but it may result in very positive outcomes too.

You can try and compartmentalize it, treat them or don't they will suffer form the disesase or not and ignore everything else, but actually its a much more complicated system and decision. You are rendering material aid to an illegal enterprise. Whether the prostitute is the victim or the pimp.

and lastly, the actual problem is the prostitution. Not the std. the std is just the symptom.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Kifle » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:46 pm

kiryan wrote:By treating the hooker you enable the practice and ensure that it continues.

There may be better ways to accomplish teh same goal, but it doesn't mean you can't do this one act.

The fallacy in your argument is that you assume that turning them in results in a worse outcome and that not treating them results in a better outcome.

Treating them and sending them back to their pimp may result in their death or at least continued victimization. Turning them in, may result in the victiminzation of the victim by the state... but it may result in very positive outcomes too.

You can try and compartmentalize it, treat them or don't they will suffer form the disesase or not and ignore everything else, but actually its a much more complicated system and decision. You are rendering material aid to an illegal enterprise. Whether the prostitute is the victim or the pimp.

and lastly, the actual problem is the prostitution. Not the std. the std is just the symptom.


By treating the hooker, you enable nothing other than the protection that their negative effects from their behaviors are not spread to the innocent. There may be better ways to accomplish the same goal, but it doesn't mean you take away something that works and protects people because you do not agree with the profession of a small portion of those that use a program. That's like saying I am going to remove restaurants because some people over eat. Or, I'm going to demolish this italian restaurant because one of the mafia members eats here from time to time. They are not causally linked, they are circumstantially linked. The italian restaurant does not exist for the mafia, nor does it condone the mafia, nor does it remain because of the mafia. The same is said about PPh. It does not exist for prostitutes, it does not condone prostitution, and it doesn't remain because of prostitutes. All that can be said is that some prostitutes take advantage of PPh.

Not treating them and sending them back to their pimp may result in their death, or at least continued victimization. Do you really think that the Pimp gives two shits whether or not his prostitute has herpes, aids, or the clap? No, this is what he thinks: "Fuck, I don't give a shit, bitch. You're gonna make me as much money as you can with the time you have left (if she has aids), and those bitches can afford testing anyway. I don't give as fuck if that fuck gets herpes, I'm gettin' paid, bitch." She is victimized regardless of what she gives out to people as a "thank you" card.

Look, whether or not these prostitutes have diseases, they are still going to be prostitutes. PPh, in this case, is a temporary protection until the problem can be resolved. It has a great use.

As another analogy: If I get shot in the leg, and if I don't use a tourniquet, I will die. The tourniquet does not solve the problem of the bullet being in my leg. It is not saving my life; however, the tourniquet is a stop-gap treatment that allows me the best chance at living. Just because the institution or device is not the end, does not mean is neither necessary nor useful.

PPh will not stop prostitution, but it doesn't encourage it either. There was prostitution long before, and there will be prostitution long after. PPh is a remedy for the negatives that prostitution brings to society. It protects the innocent wife, the girlfriend, the boyfriend, etc. that did not screw the prostitute. It protects the children of the father. PPh decreases the amount of money spent on healthcare in this country. Think about it. If the prostitute got her clap cured after she got it, it would cost the country $50. If she gives the clap to a guy, who gives it to another girl, and by the time that chain is dissolved, 100 people are infected, that would rack up a $5,000 bill. Do you see the reasoning?

You will not stop prostitution. Taking away PPh will not stop prostitution. Prostitution will live as long as humans live.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:46 pm

kiryan wrote:By treating the hooker you enable the practice and ensure that it continues.

There may be better ways to accomplish teh same goal, but it doesn't mean you can't do this one act.

The fallacy in your argument is that you assume that turning them in results in a worse outcome and that not treating them results in a better outcome.

Treating them and sending them back to their pimp may result in their death or at least continued victimization. Turning them in, may result in the victiminzation of the victim by the state... but it may result in very positive outcomes too.


No, turning them in results in them not getting treated at all. Get it? If the hookers stop coming back from PP, the pimp stops letting them go there in the first place. You've accomplished nothing, and in fact made things worse.


You can try and compartmentalize it, treat them or don't they will suffer form the disesase or not and ignore everything else, but actually its a much more complicated system and decision. You are rendering material aid to an illegal enterprise. Whether the prostitute is the victim or the pimp.


If the most important thing to you is the legality you are a horrible person.

and lastly, the actual problem is the prostitution. Not the std. the std is just the symptom.


You can play that game all day. Prostitution is a symptom of other issues as well. PP can treat one symptom or neither. You are choosing neither, and subjecting people to even worse fates by doing so.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:07 pm

Its amazing to me that you can think we can solve and legislate every single problem that deals with wall street and hold them accountable, but we can't stop prostitution.

we can't even try because it might harm them somehow... even though by sending them on their way they are being harmed hourly.

stop enabling
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Kifle » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:19 pm

kiryan wrote:Its amazing to me that you can think we can solve and legislate every single problem that deals with wall street and hold them accountable, but we can't stop prostitution.

we can't even try because it might harm them somehow... even though by sending them on their way they are being harmed hourly.

stop enabling


Wall street is a compartmentalized institution which relies on government agencies to provide their function. The government can and should be able to properly regulate and account for their behavior.

Prostitution is an institution that needs no specific location, nor does it rely on a government institution to maintain itself. The government would have to expend more resources than the world has to be able to stop prostitution. It would have to have a camera in every corner of the world. Any attempt to stop prostitution is a lost cause. The same can be said for the war on drugs and the war on terrorism. These are things that can't be stopped, and resources are funneled into attempts to do so are wasted and should be diverted into programs which mitigate the negatives.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:22 pm

So because we can't stop it, we can't do anything about it? Does that sum up your position?

Sounds like wall street, fraud and insider training to me.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:36 pm

kiryan wrote:Its amazing to me that you can think we can solve and legislate every single problem that deals with wall street and hold them accountable, but we can't stop prostitution.

we can't even try because it might harm them somehow... even though by sending them on their way they are being harmed hourly.

stop enabling


We can't stop prostitution IN THIS WAY.

I just came up with a simple plan that actually has a chance of working: Send out guys to pick up the prostitutes, and then take them to a safe house and treat their psychological issues and get them to turn in their pimp.

PP can't do that. They aren't equipped to do that as an organization, and it isn't their job. You want to stop street level prostitution, then get an organization like the one I just described set up.

Until then: stop enabling. Because by doing nothing you ARE enabling.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Kifle » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:37 pm

kiryan wrote:So because we can't stop it, we can't do anything about it? Does that sum up your position?

Sounds like wall street, fraud and insider training to me.


No, because we can't stop it, we should mitigate the damages caused by it in an efficient way. That sums up my position. Preventative spending for one is better than reactive spending for hundreds. It just makes economic sense. Strip morality away from the issue and you're left with this...

And it is much different than wall street. I made a very succinct description of the differences in my last post. I will just refer back to it instead of rewriting. In Corth's linked article, there are many things that could change that would mitigate damages. There are many lawsuits to be had for those who committed the crimes -- there is enough evidence.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:55 pm

Strip out morality? on a question of what we ought to do? Is that even possible?

Government money should not be flowing to support illegal actions period.

Treating a prostitute, does not help that person in all but the most basic physiological ways. It basically guarantees further victimization as they return to "work". Do you think a prostitute is going to stop turn tricks if they get HIV? We should treat them either way, but if they indicate they are involved in illegal activity... and the government is paying for it, it must be reported.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:59 pm

kiryan wrote:Strip out morality? on a question of what we ought to do? Is that even possible?

Government money should not be flowing to support illegal actions period.

Treating a prostitute, does not help that person in all but the most basic physiological ways. It basically guarantees further victimization as they return to "work". Do you think a prostitute is going to stop turn tricks if they get HIV? We should treat them either way, but if they indicate they are involved in illegal activity... and the government is paying for it, it must be reported.



Do you think their pimp would let them go to PP if they could report it?

Look Kiryan, here are your choices:

1) Prostitutes who get treated for their STDs, and maybe have a smaller chance of spreading them
2) Prostitutes who do not get treated, and have a higher chance of spreading them

There is no other option. Reporting them does not stop prostitution, it stops them from getting treatment.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Kifle » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:00 pm

kiryan wrote:Strip out morality? on a question of what we ought to do? Is that even possible?

Government money should not be flowing to support illegal actions period.

Treating a prostitute, does not help that person in all but the most basic physiological ways. It basically guarantees further victimization as they return to "work". Do you think a prostitute is going to stop turn tricks if they get HIV? We should treat them either way, but if they indicate they are involved in illegal activity... and the government is paying for it, it must be reported.


This is something you need to really understand before I post any more on the subject: Planned Parenthood does NOT support prostitution. Planned Parenthood does NOT enable prostitution. Prostitutes will be prostitutes whether or not they have kids or STDs. That is just a fact. There was prostitution long before, and there will be prostitution long after Planned Parenthood.

Give me one way in which planned parenthood supports prostitution. Just one.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:08 pm

I have to agree that Planned Parenthood does not actively support prostitution. However, it should report suspected prostitution to the authorities.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:55 pm

Would you pay for sex with someone who has open sores on their genitalia?
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:15 pm

No, but I have to point out that those health services can be provided by any number of other health care providers and are used by plenty of non-prostitutes. Actually, a wide majority of the clients are not prostitutes.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:26 pm

kiryan wrote:Would you pay for sex with someone who has open sores on their genitalia?


Do you realize herpes can spread even without visible, open sores?

Not that a drunk guy just trying to get off is necessarily going to look at the girl he picked up on a street corner and took to a dark alley.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:28 pm

Yes I realize some disease have no symptoms. Kifle asked how PP enables prostitution. It enables prostitution by helping girls be healthy enough to prostitute.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:35 pm

kiryan wrote:Yes I realize some disease have no symptoms. Kifle asked how PP enables prostitution. It enables prostitution by helping girls be healthy enough to prostitute.


No, it doesn't. They would prostitute and spread disease anyway.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Kifle » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:19 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:Yes I realize some disease have no symptoms. Kifle asked how PP enables prostitution. It enables prostitution by helping girls be healthy enough to prostitute.


No, it doesn't. They would prostitute and spread disease anyway.


This.

Prostitutes aren't going to stop working if they have an annoying case of the clap -- they obviously need the money, or work for some other reason. They are just going to work with the clap instead of getting rid of it.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:23 pm

Kifle wrote: work for some other reason



With street walkers the reason is typically that they will get beaten or their drugs will be withheld if they don't bring back $x each night.

Seriously Kiryan, if you want to reduce prostitution you need to target the pimps... NOT the girls who are seeking medical attention.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:43 pm

No, Kiryan is right. PP aids prostitution by providing health services, the same way Wendy's aids prostitution by serving hookers delicious never frozen beef patties in their burgers.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:20 am

Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote: work for some other reason



With street walkers the reason is typically that they will get beaten or their drugs will be withheld if they don't bring back $x each night.

Seriously Kiryan, if you want to reduce prostitution you need to target the pimps... NOT the girls who are seeking medical attention.


Have you ever met a prostitute? Some actually just like their jobs. In New Zealand, pimping is outlawed while prostitution is legalized. The business is doing quite well over there without any big scary pimps forcing them into hooking. No, they do it by themselves because the money is good and they either like fucking or they like the money they get for doing little to nothing. You find the same thing happening in Las Vegas. The hooker I had in my room liked her job (long, funny story) when my wife asked her. She didn't seem scared at all. Sure, she had a coke problem, but she worked for an escort company, so...
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:36 am

Kifle wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote: work for some other reason



With street walkers the reason is typically that they will get beaten or their drugs will be withheld if they don't bring back $x each night.

Seriously Kiryan, if you want to reduce prostitution you need to target the pimps... NOT the girls who are seeking medical attention.


Have you ever met a prostitute? Some actually just like their jobs. In New Zealand, pimping is outlawed while prostitution is legalized. The business is doing quite well over there without any big scary pimps forcing them into hooking. No, they do it by themselves because the money is good and they either like fucking or they like the money they get for doing little to nothing. You find the same thing happening in Las Vegas. The hooker I had in my room liked her job (long, funny story) when my wife asked her. She didn't seem scared at all. Sure, she had a coke problem, but she worked for an escort company, so...


I'm well aware of the existence of women who enjoy being escorts. They aren't the ones going to PP to get STDs cured, though. They are smart and careful about what they are doing. I've actually heard it said that you're safer sleeping with an independent escort than with girls you pick up in the club because they are so much more careful about diseases.

They aren't the ones we are talking about.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Ashiwi » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:33 am

Do you guys even live in this world???

A "young woman" goes to an agency for treatment of an STD. She's there every couple of weeks. The doctor attempts to talk to her; she fobs him off. Now, is she a prostitute? Or is she just very sexually active? Young women and teens are a LOT more openly promiscuous today, and often initiate activities as often as their male counterparts do. There are regions in the states where high school kids trade STDs like they used to trade bubblegum cards.

So is a doctor supposed to assume that every female who comes to a clinic for STD treatment more than once is a prostitute? Is there a neon light over a prostitute's head that flashes when you put a quarter in her slot? When you walk into a grocery store how do you tell the prostitutes from the other women?

With the exceptions of areas where prostitution has been legalized, do you really think these girls are telling their healthcare providers which corner they work for a living?
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:33 am

Ashiwi wrote:Do you guys even live in this world???

A "young woman" goes to an agency for treatment of an STD. She's there every couple of weeks. The doctor attempts to talk to her; she fobs him off. Now, is she a prostitute? Or is she just very sexually active? Young women and teens are a LOT more openly promiscuous today, and often initiate activities as often as their male counterparts do. There are regions in the states where high school kids trade STDs like they used to trade bubblegum cards.

So is a doctor supposed to assume that every female who comes to a clinic for STD treatment more than once is a prostitute? Is there a neon light over a prostitute's head that flashes when you put a quarter in her slot? When you walk into a grocery store how do you tell the prostitutes from the other women?

With the exceptions of areas where prostitution has been legalized, do you really think these girls are telling their healthcare providers which corner they work for a living?


It's not too hard to spot a hooker, Kelly :) Sure, there are some regular girls that look like hookers, but it's not hard to pick them out. Also, I don't know one girl that goes to PPh every week that isn't some type of hooker. Again, there are exceptions, but they aren't tough to pick out of a crowd.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:08 pm

Ok, so I did a little research on the bill. I also skipped most of the content of this thread, because it (like most of the conversation on the internet) isn't actually relevant to the bill that was passed.

First, the bill was a Republican proposal, and it passed nearly down the party line. 10 Democrats supported the bill, and 8 Republicans opposed.

Second, the bill strips Title X funding, so let's talk about what that is. Title X is a program which funds education on family planning. I use the term "family planning" literally here; the funding goes to teach families how to decide when they're financially stable enough to start a family, information on pre- and post-natal health, and information on contraception and disease prevention. Funding from Title X is specifically forbidden to be used for abortion. The 2010 budget for Title X was ~$327M.

There's a lot of speculation about why Republicans would target Title X. The most common theory is that Republicans want to undermine abortion clinics by removing the funding that they receive for the non-abortion services they provide. On the flipside, many Republican supporters simply assert that the government should not be paying for healthcare in any form, and that removing Title X is just a logical extension of the Republican plan to dismantle government spending on healthcare.

Personally, of course I think Title X is a useful program. Anything we can do to educate lower-income families about proper family planning, disease prevention, and the prevention of unwanted pregnancies will increase the quality of life in our country. The budget for Title X is a small chip in the federal budget, and while I would support its reduction as part of a global cost-cutting measure, eliminating the program completely is heavy-handed and detrimental to our society. As a tactic for reducing the availability of abortions... it might work, I suppose. A poor woman who can't get access to an abortion clinic may have the baby she intended to abort. Whether that's a good thing or not is a subject for debate.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:29 pm

The Bush Administration agrees: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/expectmor ... .2005.html
and rated the program "Moderately Effective"

But let's be honest. Do we really need Title X if everyone is already supposed to carry health insurance due to Federal mandate?
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:04 pm

Preventing unwanted pregnancies through education is preferable to both abortion and unsupported children entering the welfare/adoption/foster home program. Regardless of your political leaning, it's hard to argue against the benefit of Title X.

Even if everyone in America has a health insurance policy, it then falls to the insurance provider to decide whether they want to cover reproductive education. Lower-income families who find themselves on budget plans may not receive coverage, nor would they pay out of pocket for programs that aren't covered. Removing the funding for Title X is likely to ensure that the people who need assistance most are the ones who will be unable to obtain it.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:12 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote: work for some other reason



With street walkers the reason is typically that they will get beaten or their drugs will be withheld if they don't bring back $x each night.

Seriously Kiryan, if you want to reduce prostitution you need to target the pimps... NOT the girls who are seeking medical attention.


How do you get the pimps, if you can't even report suspected prostitution?

better yet, HOW does it help prostitution victims to not report it?

big sis wants us to report suspicous activity, but apparently not if you're working at PP.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:18 pm

Ashiwi wrote:So is a doctor supposed to assume that every female who comes to a clinic for STD treatment more than once is a prostitute? Is there a neon light over a prostitute's head that flashes when you put a quarter in her slot? When you walk into a grocery store how do you tell the prostitutes from the other women?

With the exceptions of areas where prostitution has been legalized, do you really think these girls are telling their healthcare providers which corner they work for a living?


No kelly, but if someone admits to being a prostitute... especially as in the recorded videos a CHILD PROSTITUTE, you don't just do everything you can to give them abortions and std treatment. You don't comparentalize the service and say we can't report it because then they'll stop coming in for abortions and std treatment. You don't give them the name of an abortion clinic that does abortions in violation of the law.

You refuse to help them, you tell them you're reporting it to the police. You go get their license plate number. Thats what you do... and especially if you're using tax dollars.

and yes, people will tell their doctor what they do for a living if you ask. not all but many.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:18 pm

kiryan wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote: work for some other reason



With street walkers the reason is typically that they will get beaten or their drugs will be withheld if they don't bring back $x each night.

Seriously Kiryan, if you want to reduce prostitution you need to target the pimps... NOT the girls who are seeking medical attention.


How do you get the pimps, if you can't even report suspected prostitution?

better yet, HOW does it help prostitution victims to not report it?

big sis wants us to report suspicous activity, but apparently not if you're working at PP.



Kiryan, what part of this are you failing to understand: If the girls get turned in by PP, the pimp will not let them go to PP.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:20 pm

kiryan wrote:You refuse to help them, you tell them you're reporting it to the police. You go get their license plate number. Thats what you do... and especially if you're using tax dollars.


You'll certainly never see another one of those girls in the clinic again.

and yes, people will tell their doctor what they do for a living if you ask. not all but many.


People are certainly incapable of lying, right?
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:53 pm

look... this thread was about PP losing funding over the under cover videos that show multiple clinics giving activists pretending to be engaged in illegal activity... help.

I said PP and ACORN both have a culture where the law is secondary to meeting their fundamentalist theologies. If you're poor, they want to do everything they can to get you registered to vote against Republicans even committing voter fraud and everything they can to get you a house... legal or illegal. If you're a woman they want to give you all the abortions and std treatment they can just because you have a right. This is a problem and the reason why both organizations need to be privately funded and not getting tax dollars period. They've lost their way even though they do some good work, they've allowed the root (company culture) to become corrupted and attract extremists.

Now, I'm not sure what you believe I'm advocating here... What I hear you saying is that if a child comes into PP and says she is a prostitute or even worse, comes into PP with her pimp, we need to help the child... We can't ask them any questions, we can't report it to the police, we can't do anything other than just blindly give them abortions and std treatments.

What I'm saying is that we ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT tell them to lie about their age, tell them where to go get a illegal abortion or do anything to render material aid to people you know are engaging in illegal activity. This kind of conduct absolutely can not be subsidized with tax dollars. If they lie about being a prostitute, fine, but that's not what we're talking about here.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:07 pm

kiryan wrote:Now, I'm not sure what you believe I'm advocating here... What I hear you saying is that if a child comes into PP and says she is a prostitute or even worse, comes into PP with her pimp, we need to help the child... We can't ask them any questions, we can't report it to the police, we can't do anything other than just blindly give them abortions and std treatments.


Unfortunately, yes. Any other policy means that that person doesn't go into PP in the first place. It might as well not exist.

Get it?

Look, no one wants that girl to go back out on the streets but it is an impossible situation. Reporting them doesn't stop it. The next girl will be "captured" and drugged and just never be brought in to get treatment.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:27 pm

What if a pimp comes in with his prostitute who has had her face beaten bloody. Do we give her an abortion and std treatment and send them on their way too?

or do we somehow find a way to "protect women" in this case, but not when its just child prostitution.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:34 pm

kiryan wrote:What if a pimp comes in with his prostitute who has had her face beaten bloody. Do we give her an abortion and std treatment and send them on their way too?

or do we somehow find a way to "protect women" in this case, but not when its just child prostitution.


No idea, you're grasping at straws and changing the variables. Maybe pimps are smart enough not to bring the girl in with her face all bloody. Maybe the girls are too afraid to claim they were beaten and just say they fell or walked into a door. THAT happens all the time, even outside of pimp-prostitute relationships.

You act as if this is extreme, but it's actually just how things work in medicine. If a husband and wife come in, with the wife having some broken ribs and the husband having bruises on his knuckles... they doctor's won't do anything if they woman says she fell. They CAN'T, because the results would be worse.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:38 pm

but if its a child, then they are REQUIRED BY LAW to report if they even SUSPECT let alone have any real hard evidence.

My son rubbed a raw spot in his forehead about the size of a quarter "drying his hair". Teacher reported it as suspected child abuse.... because she was required by law to do so.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:43 pm

kiryan wrote:but if its a child, then they are REQUIRED BY LAW to report if they even SUSPECT let alone have any real hard evidence.

My son rubbed a raw spot in his forehead about the size of a quarter "drying his hair". Teacher reported it as suspected child abuse.... because she was required by law to do so.


Parents who care about their kids are less likely to avoid taking them in for medical attention, though I'm sure it still happens to the detriment of the child.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:17 pm

They're simple questions.

1.) If a woman comes into PP with a face beat to a pulp with her pimp and claims to be a prostitute... do we just give them an abortion and std treatment and send them on their way nary a second thought?

2) if a minor comes into PP claiming to be a prostitute with her pimp, do we give them advice on where to get an illegal abortion and to lie about their age and then send them on their way?

Answer those questions. with yes or no.
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Re: Removing Federal Funds from Planned Parenthood

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:23 pm

http://liveaction.org/press/undercover- ... xual-abuse

This is the seventh Planned Parenthood clinic implicated in a multi-state child abuse scandal involving the deliberate and unlawful suppression of evidence of statutory rape.
...
She then tells Rose that the clinic manager, OB/GYN Dr. Desiree Bates, "sometimes does bend the rules a little bit" and states that "whatever you tell us stays within these walls" and "we can't disclose any information to anybody."

Alabama Code 26-14-3 requires health professionals to disclose suspected cases of sexual abuse to state officials immediately.
...
In the video, Tanisha also seems to tell Rose that a signature from an "older sister that's over the age of 18" or someone "with the same last name" could function as a substitute for parental consent so Planned Parenthood could perform an abortion on a minor. Alabama Code 26-21-3 specifies that the written permission of either a parent or legal guardian is necessary before a minor may obtain an abortion.
...
The new video is sixth in Live Action's "Mona Lisa Project," a nationwide undercover investigation that documents Planned Parenthood's repeated noncompliance with state mandatory reporting laws for sexual abuse of minors. Alabama is the fourth state to be implicated in the controversy, along with Arizona, Indiana, and Tennessee.
...
"When to 'bend the rules a little' means hiding a case of statutory rape from Child Protective Services and looking for ways around the parental consent requirement, Planned Parenthood becomes directly responsible for ensuring that statutory rapists can continue their abuse of young girls," Rose says.

^^^^ can you not understand that NOT reporting = directly contributing to statutory rape and further victimization.?
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