disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

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disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:13 pm

I just don't know what to say about this. They want to encourage ticket writing and payment of fines to help fix the budget... but they're willing to hide the information from insurance companies so consumers won't be upset...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03 ... on-budget/
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:21 pm

It's a sin tax like any other. I'm ok with it as I'm not personally affected.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:47 pm

really, you think its ok for a trend to take hold that views "fines" on the American people as a valid alternative revenue source to unpopular tax increases?

Very dangerous conflict of interest.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:25 am

As long as other people are paying, yes I'm quite fine with it :D I'll fight it once it starts coming over to me.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Pril » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:07 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:As long as other people are paying, yes I'm quite fine with it :D I'll fight it once it starts coming over to me.


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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:40 pm

By that time, hopefully everyone will have paid for all the government services I grossly abuse.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:13 pm

kiryan wrote:I just don't know what to say about this. They want to encourage ticket writing and payment of fines to help fix the budget... but they're willing to hide the information from insurance companies so consumers won't be upset...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03 ... on-budget/


It's not a particularly new concept, but it's interesting that it's being institutionalized and that they think a point or two on the license is worth so much. In my state/area judges have long switched speeding tickets down to parking tickets. The reason I've heard is that the local district gets the money for a parking ticket, while the state gets the money from a speeding ticket. They keep the actual fine somewhat equivalent though, so what would have been a $50 speeding ticket becomes 2 $25 parking tickets.

Most traffic enforcement is a revenue stream anyway, so really while it sucks that they are increasing the fine so much it's hard to be outraged. The reality is they could just as easily raise the fine to $150 AND still put points on your license.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:25 pm

I know they have done it... but they have never been so blatant about it... They used to talk about how tickets improve public safety... its clear this is not about public safety, this is about finances.

They want to increase revenue from tickets... but hide that from insurance companies so the people will be less pissed off.

They are literally shifting money that belongs to the insurance company by preventing them from accurately pricing risk... and transferring it to the government. and in such a brazen manner... They don't even try and give a "in the interests of safety or privacy" type excuse for hiding the information...
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:30 pm

kiryan wrote:They are literally shifting money that belongs to the insurance company by preventing them from accurately pricing risk...


:roll: The only reason the insurance companies could use that information is the government giving them the info in the first place. How is that not government interference in business?

Oh, but it was pro-business so it's ok. :roll:
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:45 pm

... the government providing that information to insurance companies is why you don't pay the same amount for car insurance as a poor driver. Maybe they are interfering although I'm not sure because all they are doing is publishing information.

I definitely see it as interference to make only some of the data public... and when you examine the reason for the interference, its to raise revenue... This is not the kind of "interference" we should have.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:33 pm

As a citizen that regularly uses Federal, State, and Local government mechanisms to harass my enemies, I appreciate you asshats and your inability to drive safely while around traffic officers!*

*Note: the animals killed to make this statement were eaten. By what, is not so clear, but definitely consumed.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:42 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:They are literally shifting money that belongs to the insurance company by preventing them from accurately pricing risk...


:roll: The only reason the insurance companies could use that information is the government giving them the info in the first place. How is that not government interference in business?

Oh, but it was pro-business so it's ok. :roll:

It's not interference if the entire industry wants the information.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Kifle » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:40 am

This is what happens when you cut taxes... they find another way to take it from you. Kudos republicans :)

Hey we just cut taxes! Hrm... now we can't pay for all this stuff. Well, we can't raise taxes because that makes us look bad, lets just fine people for smoking, drinking, driving, parking, walking, talking, displaying, breathing, eating...
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:30 am

Or, its a matter of transparent justice and public records.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:40 pm

kifle, the opposite argument would be, thats what you get when the government spends more money than it has.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Kifle » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:14 am

kiryan wrote:kifle, the opposite argument would be, thats what you get when the government spends more money than it has.


I never said that wasn't the case. I'm only point out the idiocy of cutting taxes to get votes from idiots that don't understand what happens when you cut taxes with a huge deficit.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:14 pm

How is that idiocy? Are you making the false assumption that they aren't reducing spending? Even if they are, don't lefties just call that 'redistribution?'
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Kifle » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:40 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:How is that idiocy? Are you making the false assumption that they aren't reducing spending? Even if they are, don't lefties just call that 'redistribution?'


I'm not sure what "lefties" call it. Reducing spending doesn't always help. There are many cases where reducing spending increases spending. I've given enough examples, so I wont elaborate any further.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:34 am

Don't assume that government will automatically assume the so-called "costs" incurred from spending reductions. Also don't assume that Federal government will continue to grow. One of the worst assumptions I have seen is that reduction of so-called preventative medical care programs will cause an increase in future government health costs. This wouldn't be true if the government simply doesn't expand its role in health care and stops spending the taxpayer's money on healthcare for the irresponsible.

'Doesn't always help' doesn't mean it's not helping, and doesn't make it idiocy.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Kifle » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:34 am

It becomes idiocy when states must start ticketing for revenue. Never said cutting spending was a bad thing; in fact, I think it's a great thing. Unfortunately, a large portion of the republican base wanting those spending cuts don't understand that costs will rise in other places.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:56 pm

Ok, I see what you are getting at, but it still seems to me that ticketing for lawbreaking isn't a bad way to collect a tax. Clearly, people who can't afford to pay it could simply just stop breaking the law.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby kiryan » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:58 pm

Can we get back to the point of a ticket?

Is the point of a ticket to raise revenue or to curb a behavior.

What is the point of the proposed changes? If anyone claims its to promote safety on the highways I'm going to dick slap myself into coma.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Kifle » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:22 pm

kiryan wrote:Can we get back to the point of a ticket?

Is the point of a ticket to raise revenue or to curb a behavior.

What is the point of the proposed changes? If anyone claims its to promote safety on the highways I'm going to dick slap myself into coma.


I don't think they're being coy about it, Kiryan. It's obviously a revenue generator. But, since they are generating the revenue from ticketing something already illegal, I can't find any legal issues with it. Ethical issues, yes. Logical issues, yes.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:35 am

Can't it be both?
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Kifle » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:20 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Can't it be both?


Sure, but I doubt the measure will noticably change traffic injuries.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Corth » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:21 pm

It's not about cutting spending. If they cut spending then presumably they don't need as much money. It's about cutting revenue (or refusing to raise taxes) WITHOUT having the political discipline to also cut spending. The reason that cutting spending is such a priority is that people are already overburdened by their tax contribution. Increasing traffic enforcement solely to raise revenue is simple a covert tax increase, which people cannot bear.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:10 pm

yes kifle, it can be both…

the travesty however is that the purpose of the fine is safety… in a fantasy world where incarcerating someone generated a profit for the government... would you recommend we do things to increase the incarceration rate? Its just the wrong way to look at these questions... it needs to be about safety.

The financial angle here and the conflict of itnerest is so brazen its a disgusting affront to liberty. The police turned into tax collectors... Robin Hood style (Sheriff of Nottingham).
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:52 pm

kiryan wrote:in a fantasy world where incarcerating someone generated a profit


Fantasy world? It's already happening:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =130833741

Of course, you wanted it to be government but it turns out the laws are being written by private corporations.

And before you go off about how it only affects illegal immigrants, you could be arrested just for not having ID on you when you go for a jog:

it requires police to lock up anyone they stop who cannot show proof they entered the country legally.


Got your papers, citizen?


(I think some of our drug laws are also due to lobbying from private prisons, but this was the first thing I found.)
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:15 pm

I won't dispute it. I think you've posted that article before or I've read it. There can be definite collusion/corruption between private and public entities negotiating. I was actually thinking of a scenario where the state literally enslaves people under the guise of crime to generate direct revenue.

Now if in the article you posted, the state had come out and said blatantly we should incarcerate more people because we make money on the deal... that would be what is happening in the article I posted. We should ticket more people to generate revenue. Its wrong wrong wrong.

at the risk of derailing this thread, how come we don't hear anything about this dynamic when it involves unions and Democrats? That's just people getting their due (nm the 95% of their political money going to Democrats) where in privatization scenarios, despite the suggested cost savings vs government doing it, the narrative is evil corporations acting on a profit motive to screw the tax payers.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:23 pm

Yes, but breaking traffic laws is a choice.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:45 pm

Why, how is it we come to have laws that 99% of people disobey on a daily basis? You can call that breaking the law, or you can call that criminalizing normal behavior. When you add a profit motive, its criminalizing normal behavior in the name of revenue.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:57 am

kiryan wrote:Why, how is it we come to have laws that 99% of people disobey on a daily basis? You can call that breaking the law, or you can call that criminalizing normal behavior. When you add a profit motive, its criminalizing normal behavior in the name of revenue.

Because people are dicks, Kiryan, left to their own devices, they would drink and drive.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Corth » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:01 pm

There is obviously something wrong with a law that 99% of people refuse to follow. Laws are meant to reflect what civilized people believe is proper behavior. If you criminalize proper behavior, as is the case with many traffic laws, you get a short term benefit of more revenue from enforcement, but in the long term you decrease the public's appreciation and respect for the law.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Corth » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:02 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
kiryan wrote:Why, how is it we come to have laws that 99% of people disobey on a daily basis? You can call that breaking the law, or you can call that criminalizing normal behavior. When you add a profit motive, its criminalizing normal behavior in the name of revenue.

Because people are dicks, Kiryan, left to their own devices, they would drink and drive.


This is why I have said throughout the years that you are a big government conservative. You basically have the liberal mindset that people are stupid and need to be watched over by big brother - but from a socially conservative perspective.

Yes of course some people are dicks and would do bad things in the absence of enforcement. But most people are smart and respectful and try and do the right thing. The laws of our land reflect these values. They didn't create them.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:37 pm

Corth wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
kiryan wrote:Why, how is it we come to have laws that 99% of people disobey on a daily basis? You can call that breaking the law, or you can call that criminalizing normal behavior. When you add a profit motive, its criminalizing normal behavior in the name of revenue.

Because people are dicks, Kiryan, left to their own devices, they would drink and drive.


This is why I have said throughout the years that you are a big government conservative. You basically have the liberal mindset that people are stupid and need to be watched over by big brother - but from a socially conservative perspective.

Yes of course some people are dicks and would do bad things in the absence of enforcement. But most people are smart and respectful and try and do the right thing. The laws of our land reflect these values. They didn't create them.

Sorry Corth, but when "normal" behaviors unacceptably threaten my basic right to live, the legislation is not only reasonable, it does actually reflect our values.

Furthermore, promoting speed limits and anti-drunk driving laws does not reflect a mindset that people are stupid - it is an acknowledgement that SOME people are stupid, that I encounter 3,000 other drivers on the road on average per day, and that it would only really take one of them to really revoke my rights using the laws of physics. Don't make it out to be more than what it is.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:34 pm

I'm not here saying there shouldn't be speed limits or tickets in the interests of public safety.

I'm saying that to use it specifically to raise revenue is wrong wrong wrong.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:30 am

How would you feel about a government funded purely by fines?
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Corth » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:04 am

Many speed limits are unreasonably low. Anyone who has a little experience driving knows what is safe and what isn't. When 100% of the drivers on the road are breaking the law because they are driving normally then yes they are normal, no they aren't endangering your life, and in conclusion it is completely unfair for the government to then pick and choose which of the normal driver's it wants to hit for random revenue collection.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:04 pm

Corth wrote:Many speed limits are unreasonably low. Anyone who has a little experience driving knows what is safe and what isn't. When 100% of the drivers on the road are breaking the law because they are driving normally then yes they are normal, no they aren't endangering your life, and in conclusion it is completely unfair for the government to then pick and choose which of the normal driver's it wants to hit for random revenue collection.

The issue with speed limit laws is simply one of enforcement. If the law was enforced, people would follow it. I observed an interesting program in the UK where they took pictures of your car at different points on a highway to determine your overall average speed.

Needless to say, people obeyed the speed limit - thus, normal behavior...necessitated by the enforcement, but normal nonetheless.

While speed limits could be raised, when the debate occurs, revenue is never really mentioned. Furthermore, with driving, as it is an activity that only takes one in a million drivers to ruin your day/month/life (a number you will encounter, on average, every 5 years), some of the legislatively imposed limits will be counterintuitive and seemingly heavy handed. While a speed limit of 75 would be great 364 days out of the year, the law should consider the one day that it might not be so great.

Texas has reasonably safe highways and a 75 mph speed limit. It would be safe to assume that this speed limit could be expanded to other states in gradual steps. However, you must also note that Texas has 25 mph, 15 mph and 10 mph zones as well.
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Corth » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:15 pm

Speed limits obviously vary given the circumstances. Most speed limits are fine. Some are actually dangerously low. I remember driving outside of Philadelphia on a highway with a 40mph speed limit. Everyone on the road was going 60+. If I obeyed the speed limit then I would actually be a danger to myself and others.

Sure, if you enforced that speed limit better then everyone would obey. But so what? If we made a law that said you had to wear brown pants and put people in jail for wearing jeans then that law would be obeyed too.

Again, criminal statutes should reflect the values and beliefs of the people being regulated. Reasonable drivers know what is safe and what isn't on the road. If you set the speed limit unreasonably low - particularly in order to raise revenue by turning everyone into criminals, then you are doing a disservice to your constituents and you are harming the overall respect for the law.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:51 pm

In that case, then consider if the values and beliefs of the people conflicted? Would legislation not be appropriate if a lesser value: "the value to drive as fast as I want" conflicted with a greater value: "to not get run over by some speeding asshole?"
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
kiryan
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Re: disgusting, blatant use of traffic tickets are revenue

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:57 pm

Well if you look at the distribution of people on the issue by action, most if not all speed. I accept that that is inconsistent with most people's position on reasonable speed limit (they believe in reasonable limits, but regularly exceed those limits).

The question I'm asking is how many people are for funding government with speeding tickets? I'm 1000% against that. Government should be funded by taxes shared equally by the people in a fair and unarbitrary manner... speeding tickets given out by cops who decide who to pull over is functionally arbitrary.

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