States spend more on prisoners than education

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kiryan
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States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:55 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03 ... 464156987/

I 100% agree. Its ridiculous that Michigan spends 34k per prisoner and only 11k per student (and that was the closest set of quoted figures, NY was like 55k vs 16k and California 47k vs 9k).

I mean part of this is obvious, we literally take care of prisoners and we only educate children... however this is an absolutely unacceptable situation.

We absolutely must reduce how much money we spend incarcerating people by at least 50% (we do have to house them and feed them and provide their medical care).

I think Sheriff Joe Arappio has it right with his tent cities, lack of air conditioning and 2 meals a day.

"The eRumor says the meals cost less than 40 cents but the cost figure is actually less than 20 cents."

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/miracopjail.htm
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby Sarvis » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:58 am

kiryan wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/14/states-spend-times-incarcerating-educating-studies-say-464156987/

I 100% agree. Its ridiculous that Michigan spends 34k per prisoner and only 11k per student (and that was the closest set of quoted figures, NY was like 55k vs 16k and California 47k vs 9k).

I mean part of this is obvious, we literally take care of prisoners and we only educate children... however this is an absolutely unacceptable situation.

We absolutely must reduce how much money we spend incarcerating people by at least 50% (we do have to house them and feed them and provide their medical care).

I think Sheriff Joe Arappio has it right with his tent cities, lack of air conditioning and 2 meals a day.

"The eRumor says the meals cost less than 40 cents but the cost figure is actually less than 20 cents."

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/miracopjail.htm


I remember hearing something about Arpaio I didn't like, but the stuff in that link sounds good. Especially the "High School" for prisoners. Oh, and except for the Newt Gingrich thing of course.

For once I agree completely with Kiryan.

Would like to note that private prisons are actually more expensive than government run prisons though....
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby Ragorn » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:55 pm

Legalize marijuana and stop sending people to prison for trivial possession charges. Problem half solved.
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:20 pm

legalize mj

ban cigarettes, transfats, salt, msg, sugary drinks etc.

I don't get it.

but yes I basically agree, although there is a 2.5 year old in Montana that apparently has a medical marijuana license.
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:33 am

Ragorn wrote:Legalize marijuana and stop sending people to prison for trivial possession charges. Problem half solved.

"Marijuana accounted for just 13 percent of all state drug offenders."
"BJS noted that in 1997 marijuana was involved in the conviction of only 2.7 percent of
all state inmates."
"About 1.6 percent of the state prison population were held for offenses involving just marijuana, while just 0.7 percent were incarcerated with marijuana possession as the only charge."
http://www.ncjrs.gov/ondcppubs/publicat ... _marij.pdf
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby Ragorn » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:11 pm

kiryan wrote:legalize mj

ban cigarettes, transfats, salt, msg, sugary drinks etc.

I don't get it.

but yes I basically agree, although there is a 2.5 year old in Montana that apparently has a medical marijuana license.

What don't you get? I don't support illegalizing any of those things. I drink throwback mountain dew like the antidote's in it.
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:23 pm

I just find liberal's position on marijuana inconsistent.

They want to legalize MJ but ban tobacco.

I personally lean more towards legalizing MJ... although I also support the general idea that you can't be on social services if your doped out all the time.
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:54 pm

kiryan wrote:I just find liberal's position on marijuana inconsistent.

They want to legalize MJ but ban tobacco.

I personally lean more towards legalizing MJ... although I also support the general idea that you can't be on social services if your doped out all the time.


I don't know many liberals who want to actually ban cigarrettes. Keep it out of public places, yes.. but not ban.

Not to mention cigarettes cause cancer, whereas marijuana could be used to mitigate the side-effects of CURING cancer: http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/fact ... /marijuana
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:40 pm

... so is it your position that smoking MJ doesn't cause cancer?

Hmm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01729.html

Says in a fairly large study that smoking MJ has no statistical affect on the incidence of cancer... despite having 50% higher concentration of known cancer causing chemicals.

Interesting, but I suspect they will eventually figure out it causes cancer... Smoke inhalation causes cancer... period... but maybe MJ is different. Even if they don't, many studies have linked it to mental health issues and as it becomes more prevalent, we'll see more research highlighting its negatives. Don't kid yourself, MJ is not harmless. maybe its more like tylenol than morphine, but its not harmless.
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:49 pm

kiryan wrote:... so is it your position that smoking MJ doesn't cause cancer?

Hmm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01729.html

Says in a fairly large study that smoking MJ has no statistical affect on the incidence of cancer... despite having 50% higher concentration of known cancer causing chemicals.

Interesting, but I suspect they will eventually figure out it causes cancer... Smoke inhalation causes cancer... period... but maybe MJ is different. Even if they don't, many studies have linked it to mental health issues and as it becomes more prevalent, we'll see more research highlighting its negatives. Don't kid yourself, MJ is not harmless. maybe its more like tylenol than morphine, but its not harmless.


Nothing is harmless. Too much water can kill you. The important points are how harmful something is and how much it harms those around you. Our problem with cigarettes isn't that it harms the smoker, it's that it harms anyone nearby. While pot should be legal (everything seems to make pot seem less harmful than cigarettes) it should actually have many of the same restrictions, such as not being smoked in bars or other public spaces.

There's not really any inconsistency in the liberal position on pot. Sorry!
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:56 pm

umm... I don't think that is the libearl position. The liberal position is that it causes healthcare costs that we all share so it must be eliminated and that is being done by increasing restrictions...

It started out 18 and over, then it was banned in restaurants bars and the workplace, then it was banned within 50 feet of an entrance, outside of designated smoking areas, and NY discussed a proposal to ban it on sidewalks.

I've also seen attempts to propose legislation banning it in the presence of children under age X (including in your car or in the home). There has been researched marketed lately on 3rd hand smoke (smoke particles disturbed off of static surfaces like your couch) showing its just as bad as 2nd hand smoke... any idea what policy that research is supposed to advance?

The official position may not be "ban" smoking, but the only place you'll be able to smoke once they're done regulating it is on the moon. I think you're splitting hairs with your claim that liberals don't want to ban smoking... they operate exactly as if they do want to ban it.
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:05 pm

kiryan wrote:umm... I don't think that is the libearl position. The liberal position is that it causes healthcare costs that we all share so it must be eliminated and that is being done by increasing restrictions...

It started out 18 and over, then it was banned in restaurants bars and the workplace, then it was banned within 50 feet of an entrance, outside of designated smoking areas, and NY discussed a proposal to ban it on sidewalks.

I've also seen attempts to propose legislation banning it in the presence of children under age X (including in your car or in the home). There has been researched marketed lately on 3rd hand smoke (smoke particles disturbed off of static surfaces like your couch) showing its just as bad as 2nd hand smoke... any idea what policy that research is supposed to advance?

The official position may not be "ban" smoking, but the only place you'll be able to smoke once they're done regulating it is on the moon. I think you're splitting hairs with your claim that liberals don't want to ban smoking... they operate exactly as if they do want to ban it.


No, if you want to ban something you ban it. Saying you shouldn't smoke in front of an infant is not the same as putting someone in prison for half their life because they were holding a cigarette.
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:18 pm

Sarvis wrote:While pot should be legal (everything seems to make pot seem less harmful than cigarettes) it should actually have many of the same restrictions, such as not being smoked in bars or other public spaces.

There's not really any inconsistency in the liberal position on pot. Sorry!


Getting high and driving isn't the same thing as smoking a cigarette while driving. That's really my MAIN issue with pot. There are others related to health issues, but the main one is about my actual safety while someone decides to drive while high as a kite. It's the same thing as drinking really, it's not about banning it. Just don't tell me pot is 'safe' in that sense.
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:36 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:While pot should be legal (everything seems to make pot seem less harmful than cigarettes) it should actually have many of the same restrictions, such as not being smoked in bars or other public spaces.

There's not really any inconsistency in the liberal position on pot. Sorry!


Getting high and driving isn't the same thing as smoking a cigarette while driving. That's really my MAIN issue with pot. There are others related to health issues, but the main one is about my actual safety while someone decides to drive while high as a kite. It's the same thing as drinking really, it's not about banning it. Just don't tell me pot is 'safe' in that sense.


So at worst pot is as dangerous as drinking. Agreed, really... but the law should be: don't pot and drive.
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:46 pm

You would be amazed at the number of people high on pot driven on the highways and roads each and everyday. The number of heavy equipment operators, construction workers, that I know who smoke pot is insane, and they all claim to drive and function better on pot. Legalizing it will not change anything, there are still a ton of people driving high everyday your just more ignorant to the fact.
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:58 pm

Sarvis your position is completely delusional. The negative affects of MJ have been WELL documented (even if they aren't true). I don't want to hear one peep out of you next time I deny climate science when you deny MJ science.

And even if you don't believe the science... lets look at tribal knowledge. Is it addicitve... yes. Is it associated with poor performance (mental and physical)... yes. Does it lead to the use of other drugs... yes. (my dad has been using it all my life)

Now I still think smoking pot is none of your business, but liberals think that anything that affects the public health is their business so I think its hypocritical. MJ is associated with truck driving accidents at the same rate as alcohol (my dad drove truck, lots of truckers smoke)... 40% of adult males arrested tested positive for MJ.

We accept all this documented research and negative effects... for some medically dubious reasons for specific chronic conditions (which has already expanded to pretty much any condition that a doctor will write you a prescription for). That is crazier as denying climate change...

http://www.senaterepublicans.ct.gov/pre ... 62309.html

A few days ago, the State of California Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment declared that marijuana smoke causes cancer. This was after an extensive review of over 30 scientific papers and a hearing. The state agency found marijuana smoke contains 33 of the same harmful chemicals as tobacco smoke.

No FDA approved medicines are smoked. It is difficult to administer safe, regulated dosages of medicines in smoked form. Furthermore, the harmful chemicals and carcinogens that are byproducts of smoking create entirely new health problems. [FN1]

Smoked marijuana is associated with higher concentrations of tar, carbon monoxide, and carcinogens than even cigarette smoke.[FN2]

Another study shows that that marijuana smokers face rapid lung destruction - as much as 20 years ahead of tobacco smokers. [FN7]

A just released study shows that marijuana damages DNA and that it is toxic to the body. [FN8]

ScienceDaily (June 15, 2009) — Using a highly sensitive new test, scientists in Europe are reporting "convincing evidence" that marijuana smoke damages the genetic material DNA in ways that could increase the risk of cancer.

However, because of its lower combustibility it contains 50% more carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons including naphthalene, benzanthracene, and benzopyrene, than tobacco smoke.”

http://www.nida.nih.gov/researchreports ... uana3.html

Marijuana use impairs a person's ability to form new memories (see "Marijuana, Memory, and the Hippocampus") and to shift focus.

Marijuana users who have taken large doses of the drug may experience an acute psychosis, which includes hallucinations, delusions, and a loss of the sense of personal identity.

Memory impairment from marijuana use occurs because THC alters how information is processed in the hippocampus, a brain area responsible for memory formation.

As people age, they lose neurons in the hippocampus, which decreases their ability to learn new information. Chronic THC exposure may hasten age-related loss of hippocampal neurons. In one study, rats exposed to THC every day for 8 months (approximately 30 percent of their life-span) showed a level of nerve cell loss (at 11 to 12 months of age) that equaled that of unexposed animals twice their age.

http://www.justice.gov/dea/ongoing/marijuana.html

There are also many long-term health consequences of marijuana use. According to the National Institutes of Health, studies show that someone who smokes five joints per week may be taking in as many cancer-causing chemicals as someone who smokes a full pack of cigarettes every day.

Marijuana contains more than 400 chemicals, including most of the harmful substances found in tobacco smoke. Smoking one marijuana cigarette deposits about four times more tar into the lungs than a filtered tobacco cigarette.

Harvard University researchers report that the risk of a heart attack is five times higher than usual in the hour after smoking marijuana.3

Smoking marijuana also weakens the immune system4 and raises the risk of lung infections.5 A Columbia University study found that a control group smoking a single marijuana cigarette every other day for a year had a white-blood-cell count that was 39 percent lower than normal, thus damaging the immune system and making the user far more susceptible to infection and sickness.6

In a 1990 report, the National Transportation Safety Board studied 182 fatal truck accidents. It found that just as many of the accidents were caused by drivers using marijuana as were caused by alcohol -- 12.5 percent in each case.

Consider also that drug use, including marijuana, contributes to crime. A large percentage of those arrested for crimes test positive for marijuana. Nationwide, 40 percent of adult males tested positive for marijuana at the time of their arrest.

Yes. Among marijuana's most harmful consequences is its role in leading to the use of other illegal drugs like heroin and cocaine. Long-term studies of students who use drugs show that very few young people use other illegal drugs without first trying marijuana. While not all people who use marijuana go on to use other drugs, using marijuana sometimes lowers inhibitions about drug use and exposes users to a culture that encourages use of other drugs.

The risk of using cocaine has been estimated to be more than 104 times greater for those who have tried marijuana than for those who have never tried it.12
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Re: States spend more on prisoners than education

Postby Ragorn » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:37 pm

kiryan wrote:I just find liberal's position on marijuana inconsistent.

They want to legalize MJ but ban tobacco.

I personally lean more towards legalizing MJ... although I also support the general idea that you can't be on social services if your doped out all the time.

Well, that'll happen when you build a straw man argument by compiling the beliefs of a bunch of different people and calling it "the liberal's position."

You can be equally confused by "the conservative's position" on taxes if you try to assert that conservatives support both tax cuts and tithing.

I skimmed the rest of the thread, but I don't particularly feel the need to stand up to the image you've constructed for yourself of what "the liberal's position" is on this topic. It isn't my position, so I have nothing further to say.
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