hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Minimum moderation and heated debates.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:36 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04 ... -vouchers/?

The Supreme Court has ruled in favor of an Arizona school voucher program that critics say improperly directs taxpayer funds to religious schools.

Monday's 5-4 ruling expands long-standing court precedents that citizens don't have standing to legally challenge taxes they don't like simply because they're taxpayers.

== hmm... I don't think I like the sound of that

The decision, written by Justice Anthony Kennedy and joined by the court's more conservative members, preserves Arizona's school voucher program that is funded by tax credits offered to state taxpayers. Most of the students who use the voucher money attend religious schools.
...
Opponents of the Arizona system filed a lawsuit claiming the $500 tax credit, available to all individual taxpayers, designed to help pay for private education violates the First Amendment

== hmm I would tend to agree this is essentially tax dollars going to religious institutions... but you can write off charitable donations to religious charities... isn't that basically the same thing?

The distinction between a tax credit and an actual tax or appropriation from general income tax revenues was a key factor in the case, with Kennedy writing that "awarding some citizens a tax credit allows other citizens to retain control over their own funds in accordance with their own consciences."

== I don't know if I want to go there.

"The novel distinction in standing law between appropriations and tax expenditures has as little basis in principle as it has in our precedent," Kagan wrote. She then added that Monday's ruling is an end-run around the high court's 1968 precedent.

== yes I have the same criticism of this pedantic difference. I mean didn't GOP just rally behind the idea that separate checks to a federally funded insurance program to provide for abortion equated federal money being spent on abortion? I mean we're really splitting hairs here aren't we?

Justice Antonin Scalia wrote a separate opinion, joined by Justice Clarence Thomas agreeing with the outcome of the case but saying that the 1968 ruling cited by Kagan and the other dissenting justices was not just inapplicable, but wrong itself.

== overturning precedence, good and bad. I don't think the "separation of church and state" is interpreted correctly today and is not applied equally either.

"Today's decision ignores precedent, defies logic and undermines the role of the courts in preserving the core constitutional principle that government may not subsidize religion," he said.

== you mean liberal designated "religious" belief systems like Christianity and Islam vs say their religious belief systems of enivironmentalism, animal rights etc.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:47 pm

Well, it's a UN declared human right that a child must receive a free primary education where what is taught is the choice of the parent.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:31 pm

I dunno, I'm still kind of agreeing with the minority...

However, I guess a key question is whether there was specific harm to the plantiffs (and whether they have standing) not whether it was a matter of church and state.

This probably also settles the question of whether the anti gay marriage folks in California have standing to appeal the state court decision on gay marriage.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20110405/cm ... pvbmFydWw-

The case focused on whether a tax credit is the same as government spending. The four justices in the minority, writing in dissent, saw any tax leniency as a subsidy or a form of government finance. Their presumption is that a taxpayer’s money is state money unless government determines not to take it. And to “divert” private money away from state coffers for use by religious groups is, in effect, “monetary support” of religion.

Not so, the majority justices found. “When Arizona taxpayers choose to contribute [to a school tuition group], they spend their own money,” the ruling stated.

A taxpayer whose dollars are spent by the state to support a religion does indeed have a right to challenge the use of that tax money. But a tax credit, Kennedy wrote, “is not tantamount to a religious tax or tithe.” In fact, money can only be government property if it comes “into the tax collector’s hands.”
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby kiryan » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:43 pm

This article pointedly disagrees with the ruling and argues that one scenario possible under this ruling is an unconstitutional law or policy under which no one has the necessary standing to challenge because no individual is able to express adequate 'injury' necessary to bring the suit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey- ... 45646.html

it is not clear exactly who is harmed -- other than taxpayers. But because the harm to any individual taxpayer is highly attenuated, traditional standing doctrine ordinarily would deny individual taxpayers standing to sue. This is a problem in the Establishment Clause context, because no one else has standing. The ironic result would be that no one would have standing to challenge the constitutionality of an unconstitutional government policy.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:05 pm

A voucher program does not redirect funds to religious programs. They redirect funds back to the people, to their freedom of choice, and liberty from tyrannical government.

The government(s) could easily redirect funds back into the public system by offering an efficient, effective, and competitive public education as the primary choice of parents.

The faux argument that 'public funds' are going to religious schools comes from a disrespect of the people, their freedoms, and the choices they make on an individual basis. The truth of the matter is that the voucher program returns choice to the people - some or even most of whom will chose to hire religious programs. So this lawsuit doesn't have moral standing, even if it might possibly have legal standing. I understand that you, Kiryan, are discussing the legal standing of the lawsuit, and the capability of the citizen to bring suit against the Federal government in general, but with respect to our constitutional rights, the government has them as well. One of them is to levy taxes.

So, two things to take away: 1) the critics arguments that government is subsidizing religion is bullshit, you can't take money from people, give it back to them, watch them spend it on religious programs, then say that the government is subsidizing religion, 2) that the government has the right to collect taxes and spend public funds according to the law and the constitution, those right should be protected and the court may be right to reject lawsuits brought that attempt to deny the government of its rights.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:15 pm

I dunno if i agree Teflor... lets say we lived under a flat tax. If I then give tax credits to a certain group of people to engage in religious behavior... they are quite literally paying less than an equal share increasing the burden on those who don't get the credits for the effective purpose of supporting religious behavior.

Sure we don't live under a flat tax, and there are all sorts of deductions that go to religious institutions that have the same effect... but you can at least see a basis to the argument that it is effectively state support of religion. I mean they go so far as to ban religious groups from using school gyms and stadiums because it "supports" religion... under that standard I think they have a clear point.

Glad to see that at least 2 of the dissenters think that the original decision was entirely wrong. Maybe we can get back to a place where religious institutions enjoy the same access to government that liberal belief systems get.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Ragorn » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:34 am

Are Muslim children able to apply for, and receive, vouchers for their education under this program?
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:41 am

kiryan wrote:I dunno if i agree Teflor... lets say we lived under a flat tax. If I then give tax credits to a certain group of people to engage in religious behavior... they are quite literally paying less than an equal share increasing the burden on those who don't get the credits for the effective purpose of supporting religious behavior.

Sure we don't live under a flat tax, and there are all sorts of deductions that go to religious institutions that have the same effect... but you can at least see a basis to the argument that it is effectively state support of religion. I mean they go so far as to ban religious groups from using school gyms and stadiums because it "supports" religion... under that standard I think they have a clear point.

Glad to see that at least 2 of the dissenters think that the original decision was entirely wrong. Maybe we can get back to a place where religious institutions enjoy the same access to government that liberal belief systems get.

The issue with a school voucher program is that the tax refund doesn't go to the religious group or institution, it goes to the individual.

We technically already do the same thing with most charitable donations - which are tax deductible - even if you donate to a religious charity.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:47 am

Ragorn wrote:Are Muslim children able to apply for, and receive, vouchers for their education under this program?

Which program do you speak of? Specifically the one charity involved in the case, or the legal precedence that is set by the results of it?
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby kiryan » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:33 am

Ragorn wrote:Are Muslim children able to apply for, and receive, vouchers for their education under this program?


The story talks about it being used for private schools with the majority going to religious ones.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Ragorn » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:16 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Are Muslim children able to apply for, and receive, vouchers for their education under this program?

Which program do you speak of? Specifically the one charity involved in the case, or the legal precedence that is set by the results of it?

First one, then the other.

I'm curious because, as an atheist, my perspective on religious freedom in our country is a little different from the majority of Americans. For people of (any) religion, "religious freedom" often means "the freedom to practice my religion however I see fit." Since I don't have a religion of my own, religious freedom means "the freedom to practice all religions with the same rights and priviledges." I don't particularly mind some small portion of federal funds going to organizations or programs that serve people of religion, as long as those programs are open to people of ALL religions.

What I oppose is the practice of one religion (guess which one) getting opportunities and benefits that other religions are denied, simply because they have a greater representation in the population and in the legislature.

So I need to know what my opinion on this issue is going to be. Is the program open for children of all religions to pursue faith-based education?
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:35 pm

Ragorn wrote:So I need to know what my opinion on this issue is going to be. Is the program open for children of all religions to pursue faith-based education?

Of course it is. How could it not be? It's specifically not to pursue faith-based education, but to grant tax credits for any private education (I believe it has to be accredited).
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Ragorn » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:04 pm

I don't know, I'm asking you. I don't know dick about this issue.

GWB's "faith-based initiative" campaign was... less than equitable about distributing funds to non-Christian faiths. I'm curious to see if that trend continues.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:15 pm

I'm not sure about that definition of equality Tefor... Ragorn touches on the subject with GWB's faith based initiatives which benefitted primarily judeo christian religions.

Fair can be proportional by population like the house or by entities like the senate. In this case, its easier to define fair as predefined non discriminatory criteria like acreditation and parent makes the choice where to send the kid... but in other cases, you have to answer whether or not its fair by population or by # of religions.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:42 pm

Ragorn wrote:I don't know, I'm asking you. I don't know dick about this issue.

GWB's "faith-based initiative" campaign was... less than equitable about distributing funds to non-Christian faiths. I'm curious to see if that trend continues.

The program is non-discriminatory and open to all, but the distribution, as with just about every other government program has the potential to have a lopsided end result.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Ragorn » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:04 pm

As long as funding is available for individuals of all religions, I don't have a problem with it. I would expect the dispersal of funds to resemble the demographic statistics, with more prominent faiths receiving large percentages of the funding. All that is well and good.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:33 pm

Generally, public programs tend to disproportionately benefit the racial/religious/cultural majority, whom are usually more adept at utilizing government and social programs. Other government programs are shown to frequently benefit the majority out of proportion with their population.

Which is the problem with government, really. Just as educators successfully served by the education system tend to become the administrators of said system.

So what do you think should be done about programs that, while non-discriminatory and open to all, end up with a net benefit out of proportion for the majority identity group (most government programs).
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:51 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:So what do you think should be done about programs that, while non-discriminatory and open to all, end up with a net benefit out of proportion for the majority identity group (most government programs).

As long as the government administrating the program does not make it unfairly difficult for minorities to receive the benefits, then I don't think I have much of a problem with it. I care whether benefits are available, not necessarily utilized.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:46 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:So what do you think should be done about programs that, while non-discriminatory and open to all, end up with a net benefit out of proportion for the majority identity group (most government programs).

As long as the government administrating the program does not make it unfairly difficult for minorities to receive the benefits, then I don't think I have much of a problem with it. I care whether benefits are available, not necessarily utilized.

However, no program has an unlimited budget. While theoretically available, when programs are fully utilized and benefit primarily the majority, how would you feel about it then? Do you kick some people out to make room? Do you take more taxes from the people to add funding to the program? Or do you borrow money and let your children pay the interest to make the program available again?
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:01 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:However, no program has an unlimited budget. While theoretically available, when programs are fully utilized and benefit primarily the majority, how would you feel about it then? Do you kick some people out to make room? Do you take more taxes from the people to add funding to the program? Or do you borrow money and let your children pay the interest to make the program available again?

Why is the program being fully utilized by the majority? Is it because minorities have submitted applications which were sat on/delayed/shuffled until funding was gone? Is it because there was never any funding for minority groups to begin with?

If a systemic problem developed, then I would support a more granular budget that stipulates a certain percentage of funds for minority applications, which would be released into the general fund a certain amount of time before the end of the fiscal year if not used.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:46 am

Ragorn wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:However, no program has an unlimited budget. While theoretically available, when programs are fully utilized and benefit primarily the majority, how would you feel about it then? Do you kick some people out to make room? Do you take more taxes from the people to add funding to the program? Or do you borrow money and let your children pay the interest to make the program available again?

Why is the program being fully utilized by the majority? Is it because minorities have submitted applications which were sat on/delayed/shuffled until funding was gone? Is it because there was never any funding for minority groups to begin with?

If a systemic problem developed, then I would support a more granular budget that stipulates a certain percentage of funds for minority applications, which would be released into the general fund a certain amount of time before the end of the fiscal year if not used.

Does this mean you've kicked people out of the program?
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:36 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Why is the program being fully utilized by the majority? Is it because minorities have submitted applications which were sat on/delayed/shuffled until funding was gone? Is it because there was never any funding for minority groups to begin with?

If a systemic problem developed, then I would support a more granular budget that stipulates a certain percentage of funds for minority applications, which would be released into the general fund a certain amount of time before the end of the fiscal year if not used.

Does this mean you've kicked people out of the program?[/quote]
I've got a million bucks for my education program. Brown eyed people make up 75% of the population, so I stipulate 75% of the budget for families who want to send their children to brown-eyed schools, and 25% of the budget for people with other eye colors. When I have dispersed $750,000 in funds to brown-eyed children to attend brown-eyed schools, I stop accepting applications from brown-eyed families. When I have dispersed $250,000 in funds to other-eyed children, I stop accepting applications from other-eyed children.

On August 1st, 60 days before the end of the fiscal year, I remove the eye color restrictions and open the remainder of the $1M to children of any eye color who may have been denied earlier in the year.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:25 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Why is the program being fully utilized by the majority? Is it because minorities have submitted applications which were sat on/delayed/shuffled until funding was gone? Is it because there was never any funding for minority groups to begin with?

If a systemic problem developed, then I would support a more granular budget that stipulates a certain percentage of funds for minority applications, which would be released into the general fund a certain amount of time before the end of the fiscal year if not used.

Does this mean you've kicked people out of the program?

I've got a million bucks for my education program. Brown eyed people make up 75% of the population, so I stipulate 75% of the budget for families who want to send their children to brown-eyed schools, and 25% of the budget for people with other eye colors. When I have dispersed $750,000 in funds to brown-eyed children to attend brown-eyed schools, I stop accepting applications from brown-eyed families. When I have dispersed $250,000 in funds to other-eyed children, I stop accepting applications from other-eyed children.

On August 1st, 60 days before the end of the fiscal year, I remove the eye color restrictions and open the remainder of the $1M to children of any eye color who may have been denied earlier in the year.

So, you've kicked out a bunch of non-brown eyed children that were already on the program out?

You do realize that the VAST, vast majority of government spending is on existing programs, right?
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:35 pm

Now you've lost me.

I feel like you're trying to trap me in a logical inconsistency, which is strange in a thread where I'm basically just asking for information.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:09 pm

The last few questions I asked to explore your thought process and your views. You're clearly ok with a non-discriminatory program that has the potential to overly benefit one group over another due to utilization and participation, and you have a rationing system in mind that a lot of government programs resort to.

What I'm curious about is what your views are on change and how you approach distribution in acknowledgement of a limitation of resources. If you have an existing educational program that is non-discriminatory, open to all, but 90% white in a 75% white community, I'm curious as to how you would address the program in an ongoing basis.

Do you feel like there is a need to remove some of the whites from the program and redistribute the funds? Would you go for a 'reform' that is secret codeword for kick some of the whities out? Or do you really just let the program continue to operate as it has?

And, finally, are you willing to stick to your answer when it is the unpopular one? For instance, if some special interest group takes aim at you for your politics and threatens your re-election?

I have to say that I'm not sure that there's a 'right' answer here. I'm just curious to get a better idea of your perspective so I can take what's good about it and leave what sucks behind.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Ragorn » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:59 pm

What I'm curious about is what your views are on change and how you approach distribution in acknowledgement of a limitation of resources. If you have an existing educational program that is non-discriminatory, open to all, but 90% white in a 75% white community, I'm curious as to how you would address the program in an ongoing basis.

Speaking as a project manager, if I came onto a project where 75% of the resources were consuming 90% of the budget, I would want to review the project requirements to find out exactly what we're supposed to be doing. First, you identify whether there is even a problemt to be addressed. Basically, is the program functioning the way it's intended to? For the sake of argument, let's assume not... people are complaining for whatever reason.

In this case, I would run a study on the dispersal system to look for flaws. I would compare population distribution, number of applications received, and number of applications approved. Are all three numbers relatively proportional? There are lots of possibilities... maybe the population is 75% white, but white families submit 97% of the applications for funding. That's a disparity, and if that's the case, the next question is "why?" To find out, you look at the application process. Is the method we use to communicate the process discriminatory? Do we advertise it on television networks dominated by whites but not minorities? Do we only advertise it in states with a disproportionate white population? What is causing so many of the applications to come from white people?

So, fine. We run studies. We determine that white people are consuming 90% of the planned budget because only tax attorneys in midwest farm states were told to advise their clients about the program. We need to fix the proportion.

Now I'll put on my liberal hat.

This program is educating children; seems like a good cause. Let's push to increase the budget for the program over the next five years, and what we'll do is focus the majority of the budget increase on making the program available to minority families. People on the program can continue to use it, and we'll use the additional budget to try to correct the disparity in the distribution and get the program aligned with its requirements. If there's no room in the federal budget to sustain growth in this program, we look to the list of programs to determine something else we can de-prioritize. Like say, funding for abstinence-only education.

In the next round of budget approvals, we present our proposal... a 10% increase in the budget for this program over five years, funded by back-burnering an ineffective health program.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:27 pm

In a number of Federal contractors, no evidence for discrimination was found in their advertising for job listings, application process, or hiring.

It was a pretty cut and dry case, where the county's population was 58% white, 18% black, and 15% hispanic with unemployment figures looking roughly the same. An advertisement for the job listings went to the state unemployment agency and the county's free, delivered weekly newspaper in both english and spanish.

The applicants were 75% white, 5% black, and 19% hispanic.

So what do you have to say about the fact that the applicants were heavily white? Should the company be forced by the Federal government to adopt different job advertising measures to attract more black applicants?
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Ragorn » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:19 pm

I don't have anything to say. If, as you claim:

no evidence for discrimination was found in their advertising for job listings,

Then I don't understand what else I would have to say on the matter.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:22 pm

Ragorn wrote:I don't have anything to say. If, as you claim:

no evidence for discrimination was found in their advertising for job listings,

Then I don't understand what else I would have to say on the matter.

I'm wondering if you have anything to say about the end result of their advertising, where it solicited disproportionately by a factor of 4, fewer applications from the black community.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:02 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Ragorn wrote:I don't have anything to say. If, as you claim:

no evidence for discrimination was found in their advertising for job listings,

Then I don't understand what else I would have to say on the matter.

I'm wondering if you have anything to say about the end result of their advertising, where it solicited disproportionately by a factor of 4, fewer applications from the black community.

I dunno. I would respond better if you do things in this order:

1) Give me information
2) Ask me what I think about it

What you're doing here is asking my opinion on hypothetical situations, and then saying "ok I was wondering, because here are the facts." It's getting very confusing to try to keep track of what you're asking.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:38 pm

I'm pretty sure I stated the facts. You have an employer that used very standard means (unemployment agency and free county newspaper) by which to announce job openings and ended up with 1/4th the expected number of black applicants.

The question is: should the company be coerced by the Federal government to fund advertisements targeted at the black community?
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:23 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:I'm pretty sure I stated the facts. You have an employer that used very standard means (unemployment agency and free county newspaper) by which to announce job openings and ended up with 1/4th the expected number of black applicants.

The question is: should the company be coerced by the Federal government to fund advertisements targeted at the black community?

No. If the job openings are advertised in an unbiased and openly available way, then I don't see a reason for the federal government to intervene to try to massage the outcome.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby kiryan » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:43 pm

For once I find your positions fair. That's mighty white of you.

although the courts have tended to disagree up until recently... disporportionate statistics racism makes regardless of the cause. We even have a name for it, institutional racism.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Sarvis » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:49 pm

As long as "unbiased and openly available" doesn't somehow translate to "took out an ad in KKK Monthly..."
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: hmm public money for religious charter schools?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:11 am

In this case, what ended up happening - the Feds asked the company to pay for advertising in area black community churches and libraries and the company agreed to do so. The balance of the applicants came in as expected.

While there's nothing technically wrong for the Federal government to ask contractors to spend money and take discriminatory, race targeted actions - to a federal contractor that is relying upon Federal work, is there coercion in complying with their requests? To some degree, all businesses must make their clients happy - but when the clients ask the businesses to discriminate and take race preferential actions we come very close to something that is not only wrong, but illegal - if it were anyone but the Federal government (and still possibly so!).

No one watches the watchers, in this case. I once sat through a 3 region DOL meeting (18 states of Federal employees) where I had to correct other DOL members (including some department heads) because they erroneously believed that discrimination laws only applied to minorities. To top things off, no one believed me until the general counsel stepped in to explain that it was indeed illegal to discriminate against white people.

But, all's well that ends well right? We haven't slid completely off the slippery slope just yet.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)

Return to “Current Events & Politics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests