Pell Grants

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Vigis
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Pell Grants

Postby Vigis » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:10 am

I was having a discussion with a college professor today about student loans, Pell grants, etc.

The professor and I shared very similar views regarding Pell grants, especially considering the federal deficit.

My personal belief is that Pell grants are a great thing. I would not have been able to afford the private college I attended without it and believe that I would not have been as successful today had I gone to a state school. However, I also feel that I (and everybody else that received one and graduated) should be giving back a nominal amount, such as $5 per month or .025% of salary, until I retire. It is not much money, but it is at least something going back to the people who made my education possible (taxpayers).

At the same time, I feel that people who took a Pell grant and then failed or dropped out of college should have to pay back the entire amount awarded to them until the total amount of what was granted has been paid back or until they retire. If somebody takes advantage of the opportunities and didn't follow through, shouldn't they be held accountable for wasting taxpayer money?

In my experience, Pell grants are thought of as "free money" meaning that a kid can then take out the full student loan and have a few grand extra to buy a new car. Maybe if they knew that they would have to contribute something back, they would be a bit more cautious.

Just curious about other people's thoughts and whether it would be viable or which political party would never let it happen and why, etc.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Kifle » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:17 am

Vigis wrote:I was having a discussion with a college professor today about student loans, Pell grants, etc.

The professor and I shared very similar views regarding Pell grants, especially considering the federal deficit.

My personal belief is that Pell grants are a great thing. I would not have been able to afford the private college I attended without it and believe that I would not have been as successful today had I gone to a state school. However, I also feel that I (and everybody else that received one and graduated) should be giving back a nominal amount, such as $5 per month or .025% of salary, until I retire. It is not much money, but it is at least something going back to the people who made my education possible (taxpayers).

At the same time, I feel that people who took a Pell grant and then failed or dropped out of college should have to pay back the entire amount awarded to them until the total amount of what was granted has been paid back or until they retire. If somebody takes advantage of the opportunities and didn't follow through, shouldn't they be held accountable for wasting taxpayer money?

In my experience, Pell grants are thought of as "free money" meaning that a kid can then take out the full student loan and have a few grand extra to buy a new car. Maybe if they knew that they would have to contribute something back, they would be a bit more cautious.

Just curious about other people's thoughts and whether it would be viable or which political party would never let it happen and why, etc.


I agree. A small sum like that to pay back what you've used is a marginal loss of income at the very least to a college graduate, on average. I'm more in agreement with the failures to pay it back -- providing certain stipulations such as health reasons or military. I had a friend who has some health issues, randomly has seizures, blackouts, heart palpitations, and a host of other debilitating symptoms, who was forced out of university with one class remaining to graduate, even though she worked harder than everyone else (shown by lab sign-in sheets). Regardless of her ability to maintain her academic standing and work ethic, she was forced out of school by the professor with administrative backing. Her symptoms are still there, but less than they used to be; however, the doctors still have no idea what's wrong with her after 7 years of tests. I don't think somebody in a situation like this should be held responsible.

Now, with that in mind, what would the costs be to weed out these individuals, reclaim the money, set up the system, maintain the system, etc? I don't think the ends would justify the means financially due to the government being notoriously inefficient in everything they do. In the end, I would imagine that the graduates keeping their $5/month would benefit society more than the amount actually retained as net recoup.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:23 am

Umm. Just pay your income taxes?
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Vigis » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:43 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Umm. Just pay your income taxes?


I just tried to pay my income taxes. However, I am getting 100% back from both federal and state because I have lived in Queensland Australia for the entire year.

I find it hilarious that most conservatives are against programs that benefit lower class individuals (planned parenthood anyone?) because it is a tax burden on the people who do not use it.

Perhaps I am an anomaly in that I feel I owe something back to our government. I guess most people feel that the government owes them - that goes beyond political parties...

Kifle,

I agree that there should be exemptions, but I disagree that it would become too unwieldy (until the government decided to add the obligatory 50 levels of bureaucracy). Stipulate that a licensed medical provider in good standing or a military recruiter could send a letter, have a login, etc. to exempt people. Then you would just have to track the people submitting the exemptions - give me 1 good statistician and I will be able to tell you who is committing fraud.

The interesting thing would be to see how much is wasted in Pell grants every year by people who do not have extreme circumstances. I know for a fact that my brother used close to 30k and quit with only 3 credits left to graduate.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Kifle » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:43 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Umm. Just pay your income taxes?


I think the point would be those who've used the program using their benefits to pay back into the program -- freeing up funds from income taxes for other things.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Vigis » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:45 am

Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Umm. Just pay your income taxes?


I think the point would be those who've used the program using their benefits to pay back into the program -- freeing up funds from income taxes for other things.


EXACTLY!
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Corth » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:58 pm

Government subsidized loans and grants are primarily the reason why tuitions are expensive as they are - and also a great contributor towards the education bubble - too many people spending 4+ years of their lives and an enormous amount of money for a framed piece of paper, and then working at McDonald's, instead of learning a trade and/or starting a business.

The argument against this is the data showing higher lifetime earnings for college grads. The problem with that argument is selection bias. You are comparing ambitious and smart people, who are herded to college, against unambitious and stupid people, and then throw in some illegal immigrant day laborers for good measure. But what happens when ambitious and smart kids are encouraged to learn a trade instead of going to college? I bet the results are a lot prettier. It doesn't take much training to start an auto repair business, for instance. Mostly capital and ambition. And you can certainly do a lot better in the capital department when you are working and saving for four years instead of just going into debt. Most of these guys that own small blue collar businesses, in my experience, make very good money. Usually they have no higher education, and make a whole lot more than your typical college graduate. It's the people who work for them who are skewing the lifetime earnings statistics.

See: http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/10/peter- ... education/

Planned Parenthood was brought up in this thread. As far as I can tell, they are funded in large part by the US government and then turn around and contribute solely to Democrats. Hard to see how that is fair. And one thing I don't get about their funding. They aren't allowed to use the government funds for abortions.... so.. they use it for administrative purposes, thus freeing up other sources of funds for abortions. Someone needs to mail all the politicians a letter containing the definition of the word "fungible".

With regard to public and private education institutions - As far as I'm concerned, the only way it makes sense to pay the higher tuitions for a private university is under the following two circumstances a) it's one of the tippy top schools in the nation. Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, MIT, etc. or b) They have a program that you are interested in which isn't duplicated in a state school. Other than those two situations, I think the vast majority of students will be better off taking advantage of subsidies paid for by other taxpayers and going to the public institution. Why turn down free money?

Finally - the system of higher education in this country is idiotically inefficient. People do not spend 4+ years of their life and hundreds of thousands of dollars for the privilege of reading about Greek philosophers or a Spanish class. All you need is a public library for that. People attend college to further their careers. For a few of them, a four year education is actually necessary and practical. Most of them, on the other hand, would benefit from a much cheaper and shorter education with an emphasis on teaching a trade.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:43 pm

Vigis wrote:I find it hilarious that most conservatives are against programs that benefit lower class individuals because it is a tax burden on the people who do not use it.


Vigis, the quote should probably read:

"I find it hilarious that most conservatives are against programs that benefit lower class leeches."

You don't see most Conservatives complaining about their tax dollars going to help victims of natural disasters, injured veterans, orphans, the elderly, kids with mortal diseases, etc. Too many years of our tax dollars going to leeches or politically-motivated organizations is the problem. We know there are some innocent ones in the lot, but 50+ years of parasitic waste have THEMSELVES hurt those who are innocent and truly looking for temporary help. The mistake is blaming Conservatives for not wanting to fund them. Blame the ones abusing of our tax dollars.

Corth wrote:People do not spend 4+ years of their life for the privilege of a Spanish class.


ym
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:03 pm

Vigis wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Umm. Just pay your income taxes?


I think the point would be those who've used the program using their benefits to pay back into the program -- freeing up funds from income taxes for other things.


EXACTLY!

If the Pell grants benefited you in terms of income, you would already be paying it back.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby torkur » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:35 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Vigis wrote:I find it hilarious that most conservatives are against programs that benefit lower class individuals because it is a tax burden on the people who do not use it.


Vigis, the quote should probably read:

"I find it hilarious that most conservatives are against programs that benefit lower class leeches."

You don't see most Conservatives complaining about their tax dollars going to help victims of natural disasters, injured veterans, orphans, the elderly, kids with mortal diseases, etc. Too many years of our tax dollars going to leeches or politically-motivated organizations is the problem. We know there are some innocent ones in the lot, but 50+ years of parasitic waste have THEMSELVES hurt those who are innocent and truly looking for temporary help. The mistake is blaming Conservatives for not wanting to fund them. Blame the ones abusing of our tax dollars.

Corth wrote:People do not spend 4+ years of their life for the privilege of a Spanish class.


ym


My in-laws are as right wing Evangelical as they come and do nothing but quote Fox News. Every one of their kids has gone to college on Pell grants, with the youngest starting in the Fall, because the "proper" Christian role is for a wife to stay at home and not work, so they have no money.

Given Fox News complained about these grants, they complain about them. When I pointed out that this will stop their youngest from going to college unless THEY actually pay for it in a conversation a couple weeks ago, it got suddenly quiet.....

So it seems to me that the stupid lazy CONSERVATIVES that aren't working and abusing MY tax dollars are EXACTLY the ones to blame. You're all to fucking stupid to pay in your fair share, mooch off all the social programs, then complain about all the "other" deadbeats after you've used it up.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Vigis » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:45 am

Corth,

For the most part, I agree with your observations regarding higher education. Since coming to Australia, I have been VERY impressed with the track they take on education. In grade 10, the student and parents determine which track their child should follow (University or learning a trade). The student's curriculum is then tailored toward that track with some overlap between the two in the event that the student's goals change. In year 12, they move down to a 4 day school week with the free day being used to be part of an apprentice program or to take additional classes or studying if going to a University program. Wages here are very high (though, so is the cost of living) unemployment is very low, and there are very few truly homeless people (then again, families making under $70k per year are eligible for government housing). I have had many Aussies tell me to not give money to people panhandling as there are more than enough jobs and it is free for an AU resident to attend TAFE (tech school) to learn a trade. You also see A LOT more small business owners here.

I am not sure whether or not I agree that the higher education is efficient though. In my opinion, a liberal arts education is intended to teach you how to think rather than to teach you any one thing in particular (as a trade school would). The reason that businesses look for college educated workers is because those workers have problem solving and critical thinking skills; they don't (usually) sit around waiting for somebody else to tell them how to deal with a particular problem. That has been one of my biggest frustration in hiring Australian employees; they run into a wall and then lean against it until somebody shows them that the door is to the right...

Regarding Planned Parenthood, for the most part I support what they are trying to do and even applaud it in some cases but I will not touch on the abortion issue as my personal feelings on abortion is that it is fundamentally a choice to be made by the woman and her partner. I absolutely in no way, shape, or form believe that ANY organization receiving government funds should be allowed to support or donate money to any political party whatsoever. In fact, I would prefer that no private money could be used for any political campaign as it gives an unfair advantage to career politicians who owe too many favors and restricts your average person (who might actually represent the people) from being able to run.

Public education versus private education is a little harder to judge. If I look just at my own circumstances, it was the right choice. I only qualified for in-state tuition for schools in Montana and North Dakota. Of the public schools available in those states, only 1 had a wrestling program and though the coach tried to recruit me, they had given their tuition waivers to junior college transfers; additionally, they were an agriculture and machinery focused program. The private school I attended recruited me as well, by the time they were through giving me "academic" scholarships (at the time, NAIA schools were banned from offering athletic scholarships) and I received the Pell grant, my out of pocket was close to what I would have paid to a state school. The "academic" scholarships were especially handy when I blew out my knee and could no longer wrestle.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Ashiwi » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:51 pm

Corth wrote:Finally - the system of higher education in this country is idiotically inefficient. People do not spend 4+ years of their life and hundreds of thousands of dollars for the privilege of reading about Greek philosophers or a Spanish class. All you need is a public library for that. People attend college to further their careers. For a few of them, a four year education is actually necessary and practical. Most of them, on the other hand, would benefit from a much cheaper and shorter education with an emphasis on teaching a trade.


On this point we're in almost full agreement. My only disagreement is that there are certain classes which help to teach individuals how to think. 90% of today's college grads never learned how to think, no matter what classes they took. The majority of college grads will never need to know how to think unless they're going into a line of business involving ethics or theory. I would hesitate to not offer these courses to the masses, however. A good philosophy course or multiple years in mathematics can be a life-changing experience. Do you think that *all* courses not directly related to the chosen technical career should be weeded from the curriculum?
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Corth » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:15 pm

I get the impression the cliche 'college teaches you how to think' is perhaps the most important thing that the colleges try to instill in their subjects. Is there an element of truth in it? Perhaps. It might really also be a bit of a coincidence. Are 18-22 year olds receptive to new ideas because they are exposed to them at college, or because they are transitioning to adulthood and taking on new responsibilities and roles? Maybe a combination of both. And then, some people are suited towards a broader education, and others aren't. I think ultimately I'm for less of a 'one size fits all' approach to education. The choice of whether to go to school, and secondly, what type of school, should be something that is given a lot of thought and not just be an automatic.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:13 pm

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If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Kifle » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:33 pm

Corth wrote:I get the impression the cliche 'college teaches you how to think' is perhaps the most important thing that the colleges try to instill in their subjects. Is there an element of truth in it? Perhaps. It might really also be a bit of a coincidence. Are 18-22 year olds receptive to new ideas because they are exposed to them at college, or because they are transitioning to adulthood and taking on new responsibilities and roles? Maybe a combination of both. And then, some people are suited towards a broader education, and others aren't. I think ultimately I'm for less of a 'one size fits all' approach to education. The choice of whether to go to school, and secondly, what type of school, should be something that is given a lot of thought and not just be an automatic.


I think the cliche is true to an extent, but I still think genetics has more to do with "learning how to think" than an education does. Reading Aristotle can only do so much if there is nothing there to begin with. You will still see a large gap between those that have the innate ability to "think outside the box" and those that are "taught" the simple theory of subjectivity of perspective. I do believe philosophy honed my skills, but those skills were always there. I know a lot of grads that can't write, read, or speak to a degree that is beyond high school. Failure should be easier in the education system -- and that is the problem with high education.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Corth » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:40 pm

I pretty much agree with that Kifle. There are some people that will benefit enormously from a classic liberal arts education, and others that really won't get much out of it. The 'one size fits all' approach is enormously inefficient, as it costs EVERYONE 4+ years and tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars. For some people it's worth it, but others don't need it and it's just a waste. And it's not that any particular person is better or worse than anyone else. It's just that people innately have different capabilities, interests, and priorities, and the education system doesn't seem to recognize that.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Corth » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:51 pm

Vigis wrote:Corth,
You also see A LOT more small business owners here.


Exactly. Small business is the backbone of our economy - yet we seem to have a system that discourages the formation of small businesses. I am truly discouraged by how many smart, young, capable people that I meet who have a 'worker drone' mentality. Everything they do is geared towards making them marketable - for an employer. There is very little thought about how one might be marketable - to a customer. It's actually kind of pervasive. You start with the emphasis in high school towards getting into a good school by involving yourself in a bunch of extracurricular activities just for the sake of looking well-rounded, and it goes all the way up the ladder to big business being bailed out by politicians at the expense of small businesses who might have otherwise expanded and took their place. I'm scared that we are collectively forgetting, as a society, the idea of how to start a business.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:18 pm

Kifle wrote:I think the cliche is true to an extent, but I still think genetics has more to do with "learning how to think" than an education does. Reading Aristotle can only do so much if there is nothing there to begin with. You will still see a large gap between those that have the innate ability to "think outside the box" and those that are "taught" the simple theory of subjectivity of perspective.


I'd tack on how you were raised as well, as that is also an enormous part of learning how to think, sometimes more so than genetics. Personal experiences, light trauma, etc, all increase cognitive abilities.

torkur wrote:So it seems to me that the stupid lazy CONSERVATIVES that aren't working and abusing MY tax dollars are EXACTLY the ones to blame. You're all to fucking stupid to pay in your fair share, mooch off all the social programs, then complain about all the "other" deadbeats after you've used it up.


Was this just a troll post or what? Should I tag this is as insulting? Should I tag this as insane?
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:32 pm

Corth wrote:I'm scared that we are collectively forgetting, as a society, the idea of how to start a business.


And more importantly, that we can...
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby torkur » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:08 pm

torkur wrote:So it seems to me that the stupid lazy CONSERVATIVES that aren't working and abusing MY tax dollars are EXACTLY the ones to blame. You're all to fucking stupid to pay in your fair share, mooch off all the social programs, then complain about all the "other" deadbeats after you've used it up.


Was this just a troll post or what? Should I tag this is as insulting? Should I tag this as insane?[/quote]

Just a response to your whiny comment about being put upon. Could care less what you do with it.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Ashiwi » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:25 pm

Okay, I get all that, but there are a hundred thousand young people out there in this country that have the potential to be more, but have never been exposed to the art of critical thinking. Higher math, philosophy and debate all have the ability to tap that potential.

I will be one of the first to admit that many are simply incapable of moving beyond the barriers in their lives and would never recognize that eye-opening moment where the brain rewires itself, but is it a good idea to write off everybody of a lower income bracket? Let's face it, those from families who can afford the complete education process are going to get it, which means 99.9% of people who are from poor families will continue to foster poor families, and people from wealthier backgrounds are going to be far more likely to work in fields such as law, medicine, politics, etc, etc, etc.

So, would you completely rewrite the educational process to eliminate unnecessary classes even if they have the highest critical thinking potential (the abstracts)? You can teach somebody to run a business, but without critical thought they will probably run it into the ground early. Some people are naturals, some are not and need that boost.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:41 am

Ashiwi wrote:Okay, I get all that, but there are a hundred thousand young people out there in this country that have the potential to be more, but have never been exposed to the art of critical thinking. Higher math, philosophy and debate all have the ability to tap that potential.

I will be one of the first to admit that many are simply incapable of moving beyond the barriers in their lives and would never recognize that eye-opening moment where the brain rewires itself, but is it a good idea to write off everybody of a lower income bracket? Let's face it, those from families who can afford the complete education process are going to get it, which means 99.9% of people who are from poor families will continue to foster poor families, and people from wealthier backgrounds are going to be far more likely to work in fields such as law, medicine, politics, etc, etc, etc.

So, would you completely rewrite the educational process to eliminate unnecessary classes even if they have the highest critical thinking potential (the abstracts)? You can teach somebody to run a business, but without critical thought they will probably run it into the ground early. Some people are naturals, some are not and need that boost.


Who could possibly say no to that Ash? And who is saying to write off everybody? We just want to disconnect the leeches from government teats, or, at the very least, what Vigis originally said: have everyone pay something in return, after.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:49 am

Once upon a time, only motivated "smart" people went to college, thus they tended towards higher lifetime earnings.

Imagine if getting a job as a manager de facto required being able to play golf well because the skills exhibited in golfers were typical of those needed to manage (or so it was thought)... all managers would golf and only rich people who had the money to be part of a country club and invest in learning to play golf could become managers.

Would the solution to this problem be to offer grants for poor people with no aptitude for management country club memberships with a hope to get them into management and drive up their earnings? What would happen when a few decades later everyone could golf (or rather golf standards had been driven down to the point where everyone qualifed as a golfer)? ... you've got a system that has become entrenched and normal but does not meet or function in the same way it originally did but insidiously is believed to function in the same way. In the case of our education system, college used to separate the under achievers from the over achievers and a 4 year degree proved sometihng. I don't think that is the case today...

In my opinion this is what has happened to us today. Even mentally disabled people are expected to go to college funded by tax payers.

Sure in a philosophical sense there is benefit for all individuals to get an education, more education, but one has to question whether your 2.0 gpa HS student... let alone your < 100 IQ mentally disabled (or autistic) kid should be encouraged to go to college... and of course there will be some underperforming students who go to college and turn out to be among the best and brightest, but there are probably a lot more who will drop out wasting our tax dollars and driving up the cost of education for everyone.

Recently there was a debate in Montana over cutting the GED program funding to 0 in addition to pervasive cuts across the board in education. The argument was cuts had to be made so should you cut the 2nd chance opportunity or make cuts in the first chance opportunity? Those who need the GED program to some degree are hopelessly doomed... unless you imagine they could actually if sufficiently motivated get the GED on their own whether by working and saving to put themselves through a private school or by gathering materials and teaching themselves...

Now to ashiwi's point... should we help the under performers in the hopes they will become strong performers... should we allow a class of people to live perpetually below their abilities because they could never get a leg up... for whatever reason? It certainly is a noble pursuit, but this is what is missing from our society today, the gumption to do something on your own despite adversity... instead we bitch and moan about how we need the government to give us X so we can be successful. to blame others for our failures instead of accepting that we either aren't as good as someone else or that we simply have to work harder because of the nature of our circumstances.

I think we are at the point where equal opportunity is implemented to an unsustainable degree... and the practical result is an entitlement mentality.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:34 pm

kiryan wrote:Recently there was a debate in Montana over cutting the GED program funding to 0 in addition to pervasive cuts across the board in education. The argument was cuts had to be made so should you cut the 2nd chance opportunity or make cuts in the first chance opportunity? Those who need the GED program to some degree are hopelessly doomed... unless you imagine they could actually if sufficiently motivated get the GED on their own whether by working and saving to put themselves through a private school or by gathering materials and teaching themselves...

Now to ashiwi's point... should we help the under performers in the hopes they will become strong performers... should we allow a class of people to live perpetually below their abilities because they could never get a leg up... for whatever reason? It certainly is a noble pursuit, but this is what is missing from our society today, the gumption to do something on your own despite adversity... instead we bitch and moan about how we need the government to give us X so we can be successful. to blame others for our failures instead of accepting that we either aren't as good as someone else or that we simply have to work harder because of the nature of our circumstances.

I think we are at the point where equal opportunity is implemented to an unsustainable degree... and the practical result is an entitlement mentality.


I love the idea of cutting GED funding to zero and shifting it to the schools where needed. It's not hard to get a GED anyway.

And I agree with your conclusive statement; however, dispensing with the program instead of making it more efficient is the way to go. I screwed around in HS, but I was more entitled to a college education over the suburb kids that had rich parents. The fact that I could maintain a 2.75-2.9 (can't remember the actual number) gpa in HS while being drunk or stoned half the time, never doing homework, and sleeping in class is evidence of my ability; unfortunately, my work ethic was poor at the time. Nevertheless, I turned out to be a hard worker and excellent at what I do. Without grants, I wouldn't have gotten here. And, not to sound egotistical, that would have been a travesty when a large portion of entitled people perform well below my marks. So, do you punish the ethic of now or encourage the development of a proper ethic with respect to work?
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:58 pm

Kifle wrote:I love the idea of cutting GED funding to zero and shifting it to the schools where needed. It's not hard to get a GED anyway.

And I agree with your conclusive statement; however, dispensing with the program instead of making it more efficient is the way to go. I screwed around in HS, but I was more entitled to a college education over the suburb kids that had rich parents. The fact that I could maintain a 2.75-2.9 (can't remember the actual number) gpa in HS while being drunk or stoned half the time, never doing homework, and sleeping in class is evidence of my ability; unfortunately, my work ethic was poor at the time. Nevertheless, I turned out to be a hard worker and excellent at what I do. Without grants, I wouldn't have gotten here. And, not to sound egotistical, that would have been a travesty when a large portion of entitled people perform well below my marks. So, do you punish the ethic of now or encourage the development of a proper ethic with respect to work?


Honestly, what does mental acquity have to do with entitlement / right to go to college? I would say you screw around and get a < 2.0 gpa, you don't really need to go to college on the tax payers dime regardless of your IQ/SAT/ACT. You don't get through college based on your intelligence, you get through college based on work ethic and discipline. Sure being smart helps, and being rich or getting grants also helps (so you don't have to work), but at the end of the day it is your dedication to finish that drives graduation rates.

I also will attack your claim that "Without grants, I wouldn't have gotten here." Really? unless the government gave you free money you would've never made anything out of yourself? You would've never gotten a job, never gone to school, never tried to better yourself? I doubt that. You're too smart to live the rest of your life flipping burgers, you'd save, you'd plan and figure out a way to get to the standard of life you should enjoy based on your ability and work ethic.

It would be a shame for you to have not gotten educated because of your aptitude and the possibilities. However it should not be the government's responsibility to make sure you reach your maximum potential regardless of your actions in contrary to those goals. I have more sympathy for urban kids who have worthless parents, but still you can't make it government's job to make sure everyone succeeds. Had you achieved at your ability level through HS, you would've gotten scholarships and proven your suitability to have your education subsidized by the tax payers and scholarships. By screwing off smoking pot or whatever you were doing, you were indicating that you want to live life the hard way and are not worthy of our investment.

People make mistakes, and they should usually pay for them. The freebies and entitlements eliminate consequences; its both good and bad, but we never talk about the bad... we just find 1 story that tugs on your heart strings and use it as propaganda.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:34 pm

kiryan wrote:
Kifle wrote:I love the idea of cutting GED funding to zero and shifting it to the schools where needed. It's not hard to get a GED anyway.

And I agree with your conclusive statement; however, dispensing with the program instead of making it more efficient is the way to go. I screwed around in HS, but I was more entitled to a college education over the suburb kids that had rich parents. The fact that I could maintain a 2.75-2.9 (can't remember the actual number) gpa in HS while being drunk or stoned half the time, never doing homework, and sleeping in class is evidence of my ability; unfortunately, my work ethic was poor at the time. Nevertheless, I turned out to be a hard worker and excellent at what I do. Without grants, I wouldn't have gotten here. And, not to sound egotistical, that would have been a travesty when a large portion of entitled people perform well below my marks. So, do you punish the ethic of now or encourage the development of a proper ethic with respect to work?


Honestly, what does mental acquity have to do with entitlement / right to go to college? I would say you screw around and get a < 2.0 gpa, you don't really need to go to college on the tax payers dime regardless of your IQ/SAT/ACT. You don't get through college based on your intelligence, you get through college based on work ethic and discipline. Sure being smart helps, and being rich or getting grants also helps (so you don't have to work), but at the end of the day it is your dedication to finish that drives graduation rates.


This is the problem, You DON'T get through college because of intelligence/SAT/ACT. They've made it so easy to graduate college and get into college that marginally intelligent people end up getting jobs and doing them poorly because they're just not smart enough. School is a mental exercise and those with the mental capacity should be there. Those that have work ethic should go make my car in a factory somewhere.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:50 pm

Kifle wrote:Those that have work ethic should go make my car in a factory somewhere.

In China?
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:36 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:Those that have work ethic should go make my car in a factory somewhere.

In China?


Indiana. They could also become part of the service industry. Population control. Because the alternatives are less attractive, they don't discount the validity of my statement.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:16 pm

Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:Those that have work ethic should go make my car in a factory somewhere.

In China?


Indiana. They could also become part of the service industry. Population control. Because the alternatives are less attractive, they don't discount the validity of my statement.

I think you'll find an increasing share of manufacturing is leaving the United States. I don't think your reasoning will apply to our nation in the next 20 years. The USA as a manufacturing giant is over unless people are willing to compete with uneducated foreigners, or if you mean manufacturing with robots. It's really not going to be a massive employer as it was.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:25 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:Those that have work ethic should go make my car in a factory somewhere.

In China?


Indiana. They could also become part of the service industry. Population control. Because the alternatives are less attractive, they don't discount the validity of my statement.

I think you'll find an increasing share of manufacturing is leaving the United States. I don't think your reasoning will apply to our nation in the next 20 years. The USA as a manufacturing giant is over unless people are willing to compete with uneducated foreigners, or if you mean manufacturing with robots. It's really not going to be a massive employer as it was.


Manufacturing started leaving the US under the Clinton era, and yes, it is getting worse, but it is still here. Custom parts are always in demand in the US. As Coth said earlier, small business creation would keep manufacturing here -- at least in the sense I'm describing. You then have the service industry -- which you can't really outsource (for the most part). This is really beside the point and only deals with pragmatics, which I'm not interested in, truthfully. Ideally, smart goes to college, dumb services the smart. I don't want a dumb doctor that just "worked hard" in school. They still don't have the most important diagnostic tool -- a highly analytical brain. I don't want "hard working" chemists, I want smarter working chemists. A hard worker can get the job done, a smart worker can get the job done faster, cheaper, and better. I want smart people back in US engineering so we can compete with foreign markets; I don't want "hard working" engineers R&Ding sub par products the "work".

So, yes, a good work ethic should be praised, but it is not the end-all-be-all when it comes to higher education. Weed out the marginals through placement tests intelligence tests rather than arbitrary grades which indicate nothing more than a willingness to complete arbitrary tasks. Move the marginals into low-end management with middle level growth opportunities, trade schools with elective entrepreneurial courses (basic accounting, mathematics, marketing, management), and the service industry.This will take care of labor issues associated with college graduates. It would increase domestic manufacturing and small businesses directly. It will allow for less Dodge Neons and more Honda Civics.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:18 am

Ah, custom fabrication. I have a soft spot for it, but custom fab really takes a level of skill I just don't see to be attainable by enough of the population to make a difference. I'm not really arguing against whether or not people should be shoved through high education or if work ethic should be praised, but the problem is a uniquely American problem and something that's not going away.

Our nation's primary method of wealth distribution is through the employer/employee relationship and the employers right now really just don't need the below average employees.

So our wealth distribution is now totally screwed up in the lower segments...

Work ethic does indeed need to be applied to academic pursuits, regardless of whether people are smart enough for it or not. For that matter, smart people need good work ethic as well. But really, anyone that can get through college, whether on intelligence or work ethic alone, should do it.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Kindi » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:33 pm

Kifle wrote:Manufacturing started leaving the US under the Clinton era, and yes, it is getting worse, but it is still here.

"America remains by far the No. 1 manufacturing country. It out-produces No. 2 China by more than 40 percent. U.S. manufacturers cranked out nearly $1.7 trillion in goods in 2009, according to the United Nations."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41349653/ns ... _business/
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Kifle » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:40 pm

Kindi wrote:
Kifle wrote:Manufacturing started leaving the US under the Clinton era, and yes, it is getting worse, but it is still here.

"America remains by far the No. 1 manufacturing country. It out-produces No. 2 China by more than 40 percent. U.S. manufacturers cranked out nearly $1.7 trillion in goods in 2009, according to the United Nations."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41349653/ns ... _business/


I never said anything about ranking; I simply said it was declining since the Clinton Era. Also, for those numbers, are they factoring in assembly plants or true manufacturing? Are those robotic manufactured parts or human manufactured parts? What is the profit margins of those products? What are the raw numbers? There's a lot more than gross monetary value of manufacturing that goes into this type of question... one, however, I never raised.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Sarvis » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:46 pm

Kindi wrote:
Kifle wrote:Manufacturing started leaving the US under the Clinton era, and yes, it is getting worse, but it is still here.

"America remains by far the No. 1 manufacturing country. It out-produces No. 2 China by more than 40 percent. U.S. manufacturers cranked out nearly $1.7 trillion in goods in 2009, according to the United Nations."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41349653/ns ... _business/



Is that US based manufacturers, or actual factories based in the us? For instance if GM owns a plant in Mexico howdoes that count?
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:02 am

Kindi wrote:
Kifle wrote:Manufacturing started leaving the US under the Clinton era, and yes, it is getting worse, but it is still here.

"America remains by far the No. 1 manufacturing country. It out-produces No. 2 China by more than 40 percent. U.S. manufacturers cranked out nearly $1.7 trillion in goods in 2009, according to the United Nations."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41349653/ns ... _business/



Of course we are Number 1. But if that manufacturing happens to be on big ticket capital goods (like hydroelectric plant generators and 747's) or done by robots, it is definitely NOT a source of employment for the uneducated masses.
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Re: Pell Grants

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:06 am

This is the problem, You DON'T get through college because of intelligence/SAT/ACT. They've made it so easy to graduate college and get into college that marginally intelligent people end up getting jobs and doing them poorly because they're just not smart enough. School is a mental exercise and those with the mental capacity should be there. Those that have work ethic should go make my car in a factory somewhere.


... ok here's the problem with what you suggest. You end up taking a test and if you're smart you get everything you could ever want and if you're not smart, then you flip burgers. In a nutshell it ends up being genetic, institutional racism or social discrimination. and no matter how you try, no test is going to find all the or only the smart people.

So, yes, a good work ethic should be praised, but it is not the end-all-be-all when it comes to higher education. Weed out the marginals through placement tests intelligence tests rather than arbitrary grades which indicate nothing more than a willingness to complete arbitrary tasks. ... This will take care of labor issues associated with college graduates.


And I'll have to strongly disagree with you here. I'll take a hard worker over a genius on most of the projects / teams I have lead. Also, how many of the best inventions ever were created by people with little to no education.

Then take into account that many of these smart people are not cut out for college or school. Even if you completley reform and remake college to suit smart people (of every kind of learner?)... Do smart people really need college really to certify they are smart? Isn't the right place for smart people, who want to get smarter, to be surrounded by other smart people in the same area of study... (research department at a college, government or corporate body)... not for 4 years or 8 years... but for their entire working life...

If smart people thought they needed college... they would go... isn't that why you didn't give a shit in HS? cuz you didn't need it? College is for dumb people who want to become smarter or for smart people who believe they need a piece of paper for some sort of insecurity society conformity or to play the rat race.

And I forgot who said they don't want just any idiot doctor working on them... I'll go with the hard working doctor, not the genius.

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