Oh those special interests.

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Ragorn
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Ragorn » Tue May 03, 2011 1:51 pm

No, I facepalmed because I asked you a simple question and you half-answered it and threw some other shit in your answer.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Tue May 03, 2011 1:57 pm

Hmm... wonder if you misread that. I was agreeing with you on those two statements, especially in that you said "usually means higher applicants." I didn't "throw other shit" in, I reiterated that a large number of applicants doesn't mean the job is overpaid. Which is what we've been saying.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Corth » Tue May 03, 2011 2:22 pm

It works in baseball too. It comes down to what you believe a 'qualified applicant' is. If a qualified applicant for your shortstop position is a solid defender and will hit .250 with 5 to 10 home runs, you can probably offer less than a million per year. If you want Troy Tulowitzki you will have to offer a whole lot more.

Also - there are a lot more people that can do the job of a teacher or police officer well, than people who can play shortstop and hit 30 home runs at the major league level.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Tue May 03, 2011 2:48 pm

Corth wrote:It works in baseball too. It comes down to what you believe a 'qualified applicant' is. If a qualified applicant for your shortstop position is a solid defender and will hit .250 with 5 to 10 home runs, you can probably offer less than a million per year. If you want Troy Tulowitzki you will have to offer a whole lot more.

Also - there are a lot more people that can do the job of a teacher or police officer well, than people who can play shortstop and hit 30 home runs at the major league level.


I think that's all pretty questionable. There are lots and LOTS of shitty teachers out there, and bad/corrupt cops too. Maybe we _aren't_ doing enough to attract good teachers, and that has something to do with our education system sucking? There is a charter school offering $125k/year and getting good results: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/ ... 1733.shtml

(Actually, I like what they are doing... a LOT of it could be applied even without the salary and it does show the harmful side of unions. However these teachers are giving up that union safety for that high salary so there's a tradeoff there.)


And in any case it's a red herring. If there were a want ad with Troy's salary the team would see millions of applicants. Right?

Therefore, by your own logic, he is overpaid. Or you have to admit that lots of applicants does NOT mean a job is overpaid.

Ancillary: I've put out want ads a couple times trying to hire another programmer. Every time all of the applicants were IT kids who didn't know how to program. Was I offering too much money, then, since I did have quite a few applicants?
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Ragorn » Tue May 03, 2011 2:55 pm

Corth wrote:Also - there are a lot more people that can do the job of a teacher or police officer well, than people who can play shortstop and hit 30 home runs at the major league level.

So you're ok with MLB differentiating on quality and paying to attract higher-quality players, but not with teacher or firefighter organizations paying more for higher-quality applicants?
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Corth » Tue May 03, 2011 3:56 pm

No, not at all Ragorn. I think the higher you pay, the better pool of applicants to choose from. You will absolutely be able to choose more qualified people if you offer higher compensation. But the goal isn't perfection. Otherwise we would be paying teachers $500,000 per year so the best and the brightest go into education rather than say, Goldman Sachs. The point I am making is that a pool of say... 50 qualified people for each open position... should be sufficient to staff a school with perfectly acceptable teachers. And when you have several hundreds or thousands applying then chances are you can lower the compensation level to the point that you get those 50 qualified people, and thereby save the taxpayers a shitload of money.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Tue May 03, 2011 3:57 pm

And in any case it's a red herring. If there were a want ad with Troy's salary the team would see millions of applicants. Right?

== quit being stupid. its qualified applicants that matters.

Therefore, by your own logic, he is overpaid. Or you have to admit that lots of applicants does NOT mean a job is overpaid.

== again you are ignoring the difference between looking for a candidate that meets minimum qualifications or the best candidate in the whole world. You can't compare professional baseball with 1 school teacher in 1 of hundreds of thousands of schools nationwide.

== and also, you need to think about this. Professional sports is not a normal business. There are artifiical constraints to limit the # of applicants and the pool of talent is known. Its called the minor leagues which you can try out and get paid to play at about 40-60k a year i believe (bella's mom's boyfriend Phil was in the minor leagues!). Because the pool of talent is known securing the rights to talent is an isuse...

Also, teams compete with each other in a zero sum manner which again is just simple supply / demand economics. The supply of derek jeter is 1, the supply of people at derek jeter's ability level is 3 or 4 but at any given time they are in contracts and off the market, the demand for jeter is a dozen or so teams.

This is completely different from how schools should and do work. I'm not schools having highly qualified teachers and firefighters, but they're is no reason to be looking for the best teacher in the world when you employ hundreds of thousands of teachers. The public should not be paying for cadillacs, public entities provide the baseline service, not the rolls royce. Public entities are and should operate different than private ones. The compensation and quality of professors at cal state fullerton should not be on par with harvard. Harvard is competing to be the best school in the world on private money, CSUF should not be competing for the top spot on the public dime.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Tue May 03, 2011 4:24 pm

kiryan wrote:And in any case it's a red herring. If there were a want ad with Troy's salary the team would see millions of applicants. Right?

== quit being stupid. its qualified applicants that matters.

Therefore, by your own logic, he is overpaid. Or you have to admit that lots of applicants does NOT mean a job is overpaid.

== again you are ignoring the difference between looking for a candidate that meets minimum qualifications or the best candidate in the whole world. You can't compare professional baseball with 1 school teacher in 1 of hundreds of thousands of schools nationwide.


Nowhere does Corth state there are thousands of QUALIFIED applicants. In fact, he claims you should be able to find X qualified applicants out of the pool of total applicants.

In fact, I noticed the numbers for firemen posted earlier in the thread. The starting salary is around $40k, which is not terribly impressive. Yet they get thousands of applicants.

Then, 5 years in, the salary jumps to $90k.

You know what that tells me? It tells me that most succesful applicants can't cut it after 5 years, so they need a much larger salary to keep the good ones around. You're basically on a 4 year trial run to see if you're actually a qualified applicant. So the thousands who do apply really don't impress me a whole lot.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Ragorn » Tue May 03, 2011 5:26 pm

Corth wrote:No, not at all Ragorn. I think the higher you pay, the better pool of applicants to choose from. You will absolutely be able to choose more qualified people if you offer higher compensation. But the goal isn't perfection. Otherwise we would be paying teachers $500,000 per year so the best and the brightest go into education rather than say, Goldman Sachs. The point I am making is that a pool of say... 50 qualified people for each open position... should be sufficient to staff a school with perfectly acceptable teachers. And when you have several hundreds or thousands applying then chances are you can lower the compensation level to the point that you get those 50 qualified people, and thereby save the taxpayers a shitload of money.

Or maybe the hand of the market is at work here, and these organizations have found the optimum salary to offer in order to attract the kind of candidate they're looking for.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Tue May 03, 2011 5:43 pm

Corth assumes for the purposes of this discussion that the only "applicants" worth consider are necessarily "qualified" ones. He doesn't think anyone would be so pedantic and unreasonable as to equating his statements to every hair brained inane possibility.

You're right 40k is not that terribly impressive, but the overall compensation after say 10 years is great (average 70k) and after 20 years (average 85k + retired on a defined benefit plan and free healthcare for life) is pretty damn amazing.

I would agree with you that if it is necessary to raise their salary to 100k after 5 years to retain "the good ones" then the starting salary is probably too low. However, the reasons for this salary bump are probably not as you describe but rather the function of

A) moving from entry level to experienced (this is similar to your point)
B) politics aka good ol boys club
C) figuring out how to work the system to make more money like getting enough union seniority to get the cushy shifts/assignemnts/overtime
D) artificial constraints on the labor supply due to advanced certifications and training.

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/pdf/efop/efo41189.pdf is an interesting read about the problems with relying on a volunteer force. chief among them is that volunteers leave for paid positions after being trained and the cost of recruiting and training new volunteers. However, it does mention that 2/3 of the nations' fire fighters are volunteer, but there has been a 10% decline in that number.

if 66% of the people in your industry worked for free... really how do you justify paying the remaining 33% 100k a year? Of course I guess you could describe baseball in the same terms... all the clubs teams college teams are all free, then you have the minors and the majors. Maybe its not as clear cut as I would like to think for fire fighters... particularly working in a high density environment like NY (different challenges than say putting out a residential home fire). However, I think 10k QUALIFIED applicants for a single job is an indicator that something is out of whack.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Wed May 11, 2011 8:09 am

You can hate fire fighters to the list of honest hardworking government workers that I hate.

Go ahead, tell me that life guarding is a tough, dangerous job, that only the best of the best can do and should pay 100k to 211k. The navy seals who killed OBL reportedly make 60k a year.

To be fair thats total compensation, but half of the 13 (so 6 or 7) have pay of 100k or more. More than half had total compesnation of 150k or more, so benefits may amount to as much as 50k meaning the lowest paid lifeguard could be earning as little as 50k with 13/14 earning at least 70k.

http://orangepunch.ocregister.com/2011/ ... 00k/44783/

Lifeguarding in OC is totally lucrative; some make over $200k

Lifeguards are able to retire with 90 percent of their salary, after only 30 years of work at as early as the age of 50.

Newport Beach a “recently retired lifeguard, age 51, receives a government retirement of over $108,000 per year for the rest of his life.”

According to a city report on lifeguard pay for the calendar year 2010, of the 14 full-time lifeguards, 13 collected more than $120,000 in total compensation; one lifeguard collected $98,160.65. More than half the lifeguards collected more than $150,000 for 2010 with the two highest-paid collecting $211,451 and $203,481 in total compensation respectively. Even excluding benefits like health care and pension, more than half the lifeguards receive a total salary, including overtime pay, exceeding $100,000. And they also receive an annual allowance of $400 for “Sun Protection.” Many work four days a week, 10 hours a day.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Wed May 11, 2011 2:04 pm

kiryan wrote:And they also receive an annual allowance of $400 for “Sun Protection.”


Err... doesn't pretty much any professional job, even in the private sector, allow you to expense things you need to buy for your job?

Many work four days a week, 10 hours a day.



So... they work 40 hours a week like pretty much everyone else?

I'll grant that it seems overpaid for lifeguards... but it seems like you're just nitpicking on some of your points.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Wed May 11, 2011 2:21 pm

400 in sunscreen is pretty cheap compared to the cost of cancer treatments
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Wed May 11, 2011 5:04 pm

... nit picking points... boy thats the kettle calling the pot black

The points I cited after the article are lines directly from the article... you choose to emphasize the last 2 sentences of a 5 sentence paragraph, the two shortest sentences that I included primarily because they were short and it allowed me to quote the entire paragraph. I thought about chopping them, but decided to leave them in.

First, I have no issue with them getting an allowance for sunscreen. That make sense.

I have limited issue with them working 4, 10 hour a day shifts. I'm pretty sure in California you're on a strict 8/40 overtime rule, that means these guys get 2 hours of overtime a day working their 40. Its probably the most sensical approach assuming the beaches are open 10 hours a day... but I imagine they might be able to save a hundred thousand a year on over time if they made them work 5 or 6 days a week for shorter periods of time. I'm sure some bean counter figured between scheduling complexity issues, danger of people missing their shifts, and general morale/preference for 4x10s the city actually saves money... but those arguments are usually self serving.

Furthermore, I bet if they look into the detail (it looks like they were looking at some sort of end of the year gross financial report), they're going to find shift trading and shift coverage which causes insane amounts of overtime and doubletime which is probably how some of those life guards are pushing their yearly salary up to double what others are making. What sensible business manager pays overtime... let alone doubletime?
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Ragorn » Wed May 11, 2011 5:08 pm

Overtime laws work off of hours per week, not hours per day.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Wed May 11, 2011 5:16 pm

kiryan wrote:... nit picking points... boy thats the kettle calling the pot black

The points I cited after the article are lines directly from the article... you choose


No, YOU chose to consistently write posts with either no formatting or confusing formatting so that it's difficult to tell if it's you, the article, or a reply to another post. Why is it everyone but you can format their posts in understandable ways?


First, I have no issue with them getting an allowance for sunscreen. That make sense.


Then maybe you shouldn't have bought it up as an example of why you hate them?

I have limited issue with them working 4, 10 hour a day shifts. I'm pretty sure in California you're on a strict 8/40 overtime rule, that means these guys get 2 hours of overtime a day working their 40.


Ok, interesting... most places it's just over 40 hours in a week. However, if Lifeguards are government employees it sounds like they are exempt:

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_OvertimeExemptions.htm wrote:Employees directly employed by the State or any political subdivision thereof, including any city, county or special district.


(Notice how the quote block denotes it is not my words, and adding the url shows us where it comes from?)

Also, are you sure they are paid hourly? If they are salaried there is also no overtime.

Its probably the most sensical approach assuming the beaches are open 10 hours a day... but I imagine they might be able to save a hundred thousand a year on over time if they made them work 5 or 6 days a week for shorter periods of time. I'm sure some bean counter figured between scheduling complexity issues, danger of people missing their shifts, and general morale/preference for 4x10s the city actually saves money... but those arguments are usually self serving.


So you think the bean-counter is ALSO the lifeguard? :?

Furthermore, I bet if they look into the detail (it looks like they were looking at some sort of end of the year gross financial report), they're going to find shift trading and shift coverage which causes insane amounts of overtime and doubletime which is probably how some of those life guards are pushing their yearly salary up to double what others are making. What sensible business manager pays overtime... let alone doubletime?


Haha... lots of companies pay overtime. Mine does, and I take advantage of that all the time. Conversely, they get projects finished sooner and urgent matters are handled when they need to be.

By the way, what makes you think the salaries of low-level employees aren't governed by the free market? After all they have to offer enough to make sure there are qualified applicants, just like any other business. Plus the low level managers probably get bigger raises for themselves if they keep the peon salaries as low as they can.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Wed May 11, 2011 5:17 pm

Ragorn wrote:Overtime laws work off of hours per week, not hours per day.


My first reaction too, but I looked it up and he's right about California.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Ragorn » Wed May 11, 2011 7:03 pm

Except state and municipal employees are exempt from the overtime allowances. Including lifeguards at municipal pools.

I guess if a private-sector corporation set up a pool and hired lifeguards, then paid them hourly, they'd be bound by that ruling.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed May 11, 2011 7:08 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Overtime laws work off of hours per week, not hours per day.


My first reaction too, but I looked it up and he's right about California.

There are state laws and there are Federal laws. Don't understand how you could have a reaction at all.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Corth » Thu May 12, 2011 4:23 am

They get paid 100k plus to flirt with half naked chicks on a beach.........

I shouldn't have gone to college.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Thu May 12, 2011 6:36 am

You can always count on Ragorn to backup the poor government workers.

Perhaps "poor" was a bad choice of words.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Thu May 12, 2011 11:47 am

kiryan wrote:You can always count on Ragorn to backup the poor government workers.

Perhaps "poor" was a bad choice of words.


It's more about pointing our your bullshit misinformation.

Also Corth, it's not too late!
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Ragorn » Thu May 12, 2011 2:23 pm

Yeah, damn Ragorn for being able to Google effectively enough to call kiryan out on bullshit he made up.

Also, I'll add lifeguards to the list of people you hate. I think so far we have doctors, fire fighters, dialysis patients, meterologists, lifeguards, and teachers. Did I miss anyone? All those damn overpaid lifeguards and teachers.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Thu May 12, 2011 2:48 pm

Ragorn wrote:Did I miss anyone?


Lieberals, of course.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 5:03 am

Ragorn wrote:Yeah, damn Ragorn for being able to Google effectively enough to call kiryan out on bullshit he made up.

It's just too bad you never refute anything actually important, like the $200k salaries.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Ragorn » Fri May 13, 2011 2:36 pm

The claim that lifeguards make an annual salary $200,000 is so far removed from reality that no rational person would even be willing to enter it into the realm of statements which could concievably be considered factual. There is no need for me or anyone else to "refute" this claim, as a cursory Google search will provide more than enough information for a person interested in objective fact to come to his own conclusion regarding its validity.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Fri May 13, 2011 4:47 pm

Are you saying you don't think these lifeguards are being compensated at 200k a year. That, assuming the research for the article is accurate, is factual. Teflor misspoke a bit by saying their "salary" was 200k a year, but their total compensation for 13/14 was > 120k (assuming the financial reports that were the basis for the article were accurate and portrayed accurately by the article).

More to the point, do you support the idea that 93% of beach lifeguards should make even 120k a year in total compensation?

My god dude they are fuking lifeguards. If they want to pay offer me 120k a year to lifeguard and retirement after 30 years, I'll leave my job tomorrow. They specific mention one retiree who is getting 108k a year in retirement... for fuking lifeguarding... seriously dude, that is so many degrees of wrong any rational person can see it. I wouldn't say anyone can do lifeguarding but lets say 25-50% of the population could. Its basically unskilled labor even if you do have to have some EMT / paramedic training.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Ragorn » Fri May 13, 2011 5:07 pm

You linked to a blog, not an article. And what a surprise, it's some right-wing fuckhead bitching about the government with nary a source or citation in sight. Let me be perfectly clear in my response -- I believe the blog entry you linked is ass-clenchingly cherrypicked at best, and most likely is a complete fabrication. If you care one single whit about uncovering actual facts related to lifeguard salaries, then I cordially invite you to visit glassdoor.com, which is generally accepted to be a go-to site for salary comparison.

Please link your findings.

And I'll just leave this here.
http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=21214
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Fri May 13, 2011 5:13 pm

When a corporation makes record profits everyone says thats capitalism, They probably do so through negotiating good contracts, cutting costs, and increasing prices on thier products. Everyone says this is a good thing. Now when a union or even a person negotiates a large salary for thier position you scream bloody murder. Unions are in fact just acting like a corporation does, trying to get record profits for thier employees, Its a CEOs legal responsibility to ensure that they do things that are profitable. Now i know at some point those unions will turn around and make the industry they are working in non-profitable, but dont they have a responsibility to thier members to ensure that they get every cent that they can from the corporations and governments that employ them?

If a corporation gets record profits its amazing, if a union member gets a record salary its bad? Its the corporation/government that signs off on the contracts with the unions. They created the mess and allowed these people to make the money they do. you condemn them for being greedy and trying to make as much money as they possibly can for as little work as possible? Isnt that the american way? Dont they immitate the values of capitialism that everyone so applauds?
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Fri May 13, 2011 5:20 pm

Amena, hmm interesting question, i'll respond later, but is workign for the government really "capitalism"? I'm really not so sure about this notion that unions are operating like corporations... and in a capitalistic mindset... maybe they are. Maybe its time to revoke their exception from anti monopoly and campaign financing laws if they are just capitalistic businesses.

Ragorn, Fair enough, I'll go find some more substantiation. but a quick search turned up this.

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/mar/01/local/me-4141

Taxpayers could have saved up to $172,668 in overtime pay last year if beach lifeguard towers had been staffed using larger numbers of temporary, or "recurrent," lifeguards, an audit has found.

== I thought you said they couldn't get overtime?

But the department agreed that steps could be taken to reduce the amount of overtime paid without jeopardizing public safety. Temporary guards had said they couldn't get work while permanent guards made up to $400 a day.

== if they work 5 days a week (40 a week) for a year, @ $400 a day thats 104k. I assume making "400 a day" does not include benefits. The claims appear to be at least possible based on this. At 4 days a week @ 400 a day, thats 83.2k.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Kindi » Fri May 13, 2011 5:41 pm

i work slightly over and get an extra $10 of overtime one day. there are 17,266 lifeguards working that year who also did the same, earning an extra $10 each. for that year, "taxpayers could have saved up to $172,668 in overtime".

i work one day for 24 hours (the whole day). i earn $400 that day (about $16.67 an hour). the next day, i work for $1 shining shoes. i do not work the rest of the year. for that year, i earned "up to $400 a day".
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Fri May 13, 2011 6:07 pm

so your position is that because you could make similar claims for any variety of reasons, the most likely scenario (working a normal 8 or 10 hour day) is not accurate?
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 6:25 pm

Ragorn wrote:The claim that lifeguards make an annual salary $200,000 is so far removed from reality that no rational person would even be willing to enter it into the realm of statements which could concievably be considered factual. There is no need for me or anyone else to "refute" this claim, as a cursory Google search will provide more than enough information for a person interested in objective fact to come to his own conclusion regarding its validity.

You're right, salary would never be that high, any auditor would have flagged that. I misspoke, the proper word would be compensation.

Most likely, run up from an already large base salary with overtime, bonuses, and the cost of compensation through benefits.

Still, you haven't refuted that there aren't any lifeguards that aren't pulling 200k in compensation. At all. The link to the park's recruitment website is fine, but that is by no means all of the lifeguards.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 6:27 pm

Kindi wrote:i work slightly over and get an extra $10 of overtime one day. there are 17,266 lifeguards working that year who also did the same, earning an extra $10 each. for that year, "taxpayers could have saved up to $172,668 in overtime".

If there were that many lifeguards, you would expect the water to be really, really, really safe.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Kindi » Fri May 13, 2011 6:30 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kindi wrote:i work slightly over and get an extra $10 of overtime one day. there are 17,266 lifeguards working that year who also did the same, earning an extra $10 each. for that year, "taxpayers could have saved up to $172,668 in overtime".

If there were that many lifeguards, you would expect the water to be really, really, really safe.

http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/occguide/lifeguar.htm

"EMPLOYMENT OUTLOOK

The following information is from the California Projections of Employment
published by the Labor Market Information Division. The figures represent
the occupational group Protective Service Workers Not Elsewhere Classified
(NEC), which includes Beach Lifeguards and Lifeguards.

Estimated number of workers in 1993: 15,660
Estimated number of workers in 2005: 16,610"

note: just california
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Kindi » Fri May 13, 2011 6:33 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Still, you haven't refuted that there aren't any lifeguards that aren't pulling 200k in compensation. At all. The link to the park's recruitment website is fine, but that is by no means all of the lifeguards.

we have also failed to prove the nonexistence of Thor, god of thunder
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Fri May 13, 2011 6:33 pm

http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2011/05/ ... feguarding

More than half the city's 14 full-time lifeguards collected more than $150,000 in total compensation last year, and two made more than $200,000, according to The Orange County Register.

A look at the 2010-2011 budget document suggests that much of the cost stems from health insurance and a reserve for pensions, a fact confirmed by City Manager David Kiff.

"I think the base pay for the seasonal lifeguards and for entry- and mid-level full-time lifeguards is about right and is at the market rate for ocean lifeguards in California," Kiff said. "But the pension benefit is too costly and can't be sustained."


According to the budget document, the city's highest-paid lifeguard battalion chief gets an annual salary of about $119,000 and total compensation of $187,782. Overtime shifts and "night-time standby pay" pushed the chief's total compensation to $211,000 in 2010, Kiff said.

== THERE'S THAT OVERTIME AGAIN THAT YOU SAID CITY AND PUBLIC EMPLOYEES COULDNT GET.

"Lifeguard salaries here are well within the norm of other city employees."

== wow if that isn't a damning indictment on public pay.

But the salaries are outside the norm of what most lilfeguards can expect. Part-time lifeguards in Newport Beach make $16 to $22 an hour with no benefits. And according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for lifeguards, ski patrol and other recreation protective service workers is $20,490.

== IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH PROOF RAGORN? THE CITY MANAGER VERIFIES THE ACCURACY OF THE REPORT AND JUSTIFIES THE PAY.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 6:35 pm

Kindi wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Still, you haven't refuted that there aren't any lifeguards that aren't pulling 200k in compensation. At all. The link to the park's recruitment website is fine, but that is by no means all of the lifeguards.

we have also failed to prove the nonexistence of Thor, god of thunder

And yet, no argument was made for it by anyone in this thread.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 6:36 pm

Kindi wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kindi wrote:i work slightly over and get an extra $10 of overtime one day. there are 17,266 lifeguards working that year who also did the same, earning an extra $10 each. for that year, "taxpayers could have saved up to $172,668 in overtime".

If there were that many lifeguards, you would expect the water to be really, really, really safe.

http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/occguide/lifeguar.htm

"EMPLOYMENT OUTLOOK

The following information is from the California Projections of Employment
published by the Labor Market Information Division. The figures represent
the occupational group Protective Service Workers Not Elsewhere Classified
(NEC), which includes Beach Lifeguards and Lifeguards.

Estimated number of workers in 1993: 15,660
Estimated number of workers in 2005: 16,610"

note: just california


note: not just lifeguards.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Kindi » Fri May 13, 2011 6:41 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:note: not just lifeguards.

could you help me find better numbers? i'd appreciate it. all i can find is stuff like, "Estimates indicate that today, U.S. lifeguards rescue more than an estimated 100,000 persons from drowning annually."
Last edited by Kindi on Fri May 13, 2011 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 6:43 pm

Kindi wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:note: not just lifeguards.

could you help me find better numbers? i'd appreciate it

k, give me a few. it might explain why california's budget is blown out of the water.
Also, specifically to the overtime, note from Kiryan's post that the auditors mentioned that only the higher paid, permanent staff are doing overtime. that's a very small percentage of the lifeguard population, no matter what the number is.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Fri May 13, 2011 6:45 pm

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes339092.htm

This is whats classified as protective workers
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Fri May 13, 2011 6:46 pm

kiryan wrote:== THERE'S THAT OVERTIME AGAIN THAT YOU SAID CITY AND PUBLIC EMPLOYEES COULDNT GET.


Don't be fucking childish. WE didn't say that, California's own website on their own laws said that.

Now, let's see. They have 14 lifeguards. At least 1 is a battallion chief, and he's the one with over $200k. Betting the other one is also a battalion chief. You don't think management is likely to get paid more?

Not to mention that the salary is quoted in your article as being in line with private sector lifeguards, it's the pension that's too high. And really, OT or the lack thereof isn't going to affect that much.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 6:49 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes339092.htm

This is whats classified as protective workers

That is the BLS definition. The CA state DOL does necessarily use the same definition.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Fri May 13, 2011 6:55 pm

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_CA.htm#33-0000

and if you scroll down to 33-9092 you will see what life guards have for a mean annual yearly wage as of May 2009
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 7:05 pm

http://www.labormarketinfo.edd.ca.gov/c ... ame=occprj
Total Estimated Employment
California 339092 Lifeguards, Ski Patrol, and Other Recreational Protective Se 2008 - 2018 10,500

I'm not sure if they discount seasonal or temp employees. This data seems somewhat limited.
Last edited by Teflor Lyorian on Fri May 13, 2011 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Ragorn » Fri May 13, 2011 7:05 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Still, you haven't refuted that there aren't any lifeguards that aren't pulling 200k in compensation. At all. The link to the park's recruitment website is fine, but that is by no means all of the lifeguards.

I am not required to refute that claim. This is a thread expressing outrage that "lifeguards in California" receive too much compensation. If the argument you'd like to present is "there may be one or more lifeguards in California who make $200,000 a year," I'll probably grant you the possibility and go back to considering this thread devoid of value.

As it stands, I view this thread as manufactured outrage over a baseless claim made by a biased and un-cited blog post. And as such, you're really not going to get more than five minutes of effort per post out of me, unless you give me more of a reason to care.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 7:09 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Still, you haven't refuted that there aren't any lifeguards that aren't pulling 200k in compensation. At all. The link to the park's recruitment website is fine, but that is by no means all of the lifeguards.

I am not required to refute that claim. This is a thread expressing outrage that "lifeguards in California" receive too much compensation. If the argument you'd like to present is "there may be one or more lifeguards in California who make $200,000 a year," I'll probably grant you the possibility and go back to considering this thread devoid of value.

As it stands, I view this thread as manufactured outrage over a baseless claim made by a biased and un-cited blog post. And as such, you're really not going to get more than five minutes of effort per post out of me, unless you give me more of a reason to care.

Even 1 lifeguard pulling $211k is unacceptable to the tune of $80,000 of taxpayer cash money that could have hired an additional full-time teacher. Kiryan's post already made the citation for: "More than half the city's 14 full-time lifeguards collected more than $150,000 in total compensation last year, and two made more than $200,000, according to The Orange County Register."

The outrage is no longer manufactured but substantiated.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Kindi » Fri May 13, 2011 7:10 pm

what is the maximum amount a lifeguard should ever be paid, including battalion commanders?
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 7:12 pm

Kindi wrote:what is the maximum amount a lifeguard should ever be paid?

I think that would depend on what the people of California collectively determine, as it is their tax dollars that is paying the salary.

211k may end up being reasonable as determined by Californians, who are currently drowning financially as a state. They will need that lifeguard to perhaps save them all? (sarcastic humor)
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