Oh those special interests.

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Kindi
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Kindi » Fri May 13, 2011 7:14 pm

let me rephrase. what is the maximum amount a lifeguard could be paid and not cause you and kiryan to express disapproval?
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Fri May 13, 2011 7:19 pm

Kindi wrote:let me rephrase. what is the maximum amount a lifeguard could be paid and not cause you and kiryan to express disapproval?


Here I always thought they said everyone was paid what they were worth. Certainly the factory worker who accepts $7/hr is getting what they are worth, because they accepted it. Certainly the CEO who gets $5 million/year is worth it, because someone decided to pay them that much.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Ragorn » Fri May 13, 2011 7:22 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Even 1 lifeguard pulling $211k is unacceptable to the tune of $80,000 of taxpayer cash money that could have hired an additional full-time teacher. Kiryan's post already made the citation for: "More than half the city's 14 full-time lifeguards collected more than $150,000 in total compensation last year, and two made more than $200,000, according to The Orange County Register."

The outrage is no longer manufactured but substantiated.

You're trolling me, right?

The second link that kiryan posted uses the first one as a citation. That is the "Orange County Register" citation.

The outrage is not just manufactured, but echo-chambered.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Fri May 13, 2011 7:31 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Still, you haven't refuted that there aren't any lifeguards that aren't pulling 200k in compensation. At all. The link to the park's recruitment website is fine, but that is by no means all of the lifeguards.

I am not required to refute that claim. This is a thread expressing outrage that "lifeguards in California" receive too much compensation. If the argument you'd like to present is "there may be one or more lifeguards in California who make $200,000 a year," I'll probably grant you the possibility and go back to considering this thread devoid of value.


Obviously not ALL life guards are overpaid and making 200k everywhere.

Ragorn wrote:As it stands, I view this thread as manufactured outrage over a baseless claim made by a biased and un-cited blog post. And as such, you're really not going to get more than five minutes of effort per post out of me, unless you give me more of a reason to care.


I followed up and posted evidence including quotes from the city manager acknowledging the figures.

===

Kindi, the maximum I think would be reasonable would be around 80k. I wouldn't begrudge them better than average health benefits due to the exposure to the sun etc...

If you retire after 30 years, then your retirement pension should not be too substantial as you have at least 1/3 of your working life left. Unless there are issues that I'm not aware of that cause a lifeguard to be unable to return to the workforce after 30 years.

I wouldn't be complaining if these particular lifeguards were making 100-120k a year (total compensation), I'm going to complain when unskilled labor is making 120-200k+ a year, retiring with 100k pensions and the tax payers are paying for it (albeit not me directly since i dont live in socal). This is absolutely out of whack with a rational person's sense of decency.

Now as I examine the issue more, there are issues at play that I think do justify the higher pay. So perhaps the lifeguards are not the issue, but the way the city has defined what is required to be a lifeguard. I've only read snippets, but they might have to be police officers... they also seem to have some sort of firefighter structure (battalion chief). NY fire batallion chiefs were making 200k. I can see how they justify the pay, they're not actually "lifeguards" like we think of a lifeguard...
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Kindi » Fri May 13, 2011 7:37 pm

anyone know how many ppl make up a 'battalion' so we could get an idea of how many ppl these guys are managing? only reference i have is to the military where it's 300 to 1300

also curious what the cost of living is in the area these guys are earning their money. like what kind of house they could buy
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 7:57 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Even 1 lifeguard pulling $211k is unacceptable to the tune of $80,000 of taxpayer cash money that could have hired an additional full-time teacher. Kiryan's post already made the citation for: "More than half the city's 14 full-time lifeguards collected more than $150,000 in total compensation last year, and two made more than $200,000, according to The Orange County Register."

The outrage is no longer manufactured but substantiated.

You're trolling me, right?

The second link that kiryan posted uses the first one as a citation. That is the "Orange County Register" citation.

The outrage is not just manufactured, but echo-chambered.

I don't understand your manufactured outrage. The Orange County Register is a professionally published daily paper with the third largest circulation in California. Unless you happen to know that the citation is faked, what is the problem?
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Fri May 13, 2011 8:03 pm

Well the cheapest house in Manhattan Beach a somewhat more exclusive community was 500k in 2002. Newport beach does have some slums, but I would imagine that its roughly the same down there.

Do you pay a McDonald's burger fliiper 50k a year because he lives in NYC? I have serious problems with the idea that you should pay a lifeguard 200k a year just because thats how much you have to make to own a home in the community. Sure its a factor, but the cost of the labor should be based primarily on the value of the skill which should be dependent on the supply of the skill and indirectly by the difficulty to learn/develop the skill.

There are poor bastards driving 6 hours a day for crappy $60k a year jobs in Los Angeles, I'm quite sure some of them would drive in to make 100k a year life guarding. Cost of Living is obviously a factor... especially if you can't get anyone to apply for a job because its not a good enough job or pay enough to justify the commute... but I don't think that is the case here. What is clearly at work here is poor management and a cozy relationship with the labor and probably a union at the expense of the tax payers.

also, as far as the size of the batallion... there are only 14 lifeguards... so how could the battalion be any bigger than 14?
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Fri May 13, 2011 8:07 pm

kiryan wrote:unskilled labor is making 120-200k+ a year


You have a strange definition of unskilled labor

First, they have to maintain a level of fitness that many people can't. Second, they need to have first aid skills, and special training to know how to actually rescue people in the water. Would love to see YOU swim out into the water and rescue someone who is panicking and flailing around. As they get promoted I'm betting there is additional training for equipment (boats perhaps) and of course management skills. Which brings me to...

Second, the only guys who made that much are battalion chiefs. Management, not unskilled labor. So if you're "these particular lifeguards were making 100-120k a year" then STFU already and realize that their managers should probably make more.

Oh, and lastly you said "the maximum I think would be reasonable would be around 80k."

Guess what? This is the OC. The cost of living is very high there. In fact, if you translate their salary to a city like Buffalo it comes out to... wait for it... $77k!

So sounds like their salary is spot on according to you!
Last edited by Sarvis on Fri May 13, 2011 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 8:10 pm

Ragorn:

Despite what I consider to be your invalid protestations, I've identified a government source that might alleviate your expressed concern.


http://www.newportbeachca.gov/Modules/S ... ntid=10020
6015 LIFEGUARD BATTALION CHIEF 1 2360.01 100% 119,477.69 75,575.67 195,053.36
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 8:13 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:unskilled labor is making 120-200k+ a year


A) You have a strange definition of unskilled labor

First, they have to maintain a level of fitness that many people can't. Second, they need to have first aid skills

(NOTICE: Sarvis can't see this) So do Army Privates.

Sarvis wrote:and special training to know how to actually rescue people in the water.

(NOTICE: Sarvis can't see this)And those army privates that receive the same training are Army Specialists.

Total Pay: ~24k
Total Compensation (assuming qualifying for retirement benefits): ~50k
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Kindi » Fri May 13, 2011 8:15 pm

kiryan, as i tried pointing out with my earlier posts, the number '14' was provided without proper context. it was the number of "the city's full-time lifeguards", and the article clearly references other lifeguards not fitting into that category. that's why i was wondering how many there were total. more numbers is better
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Fri May 13, 2011 8:23 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:unskilled labor is making 120-200k+ a year


A) You have a strange definition of unskilled labor

First, they have to maintain a level of fitness that many people can't. Second, they need to have first aid skills

(NOTICE: Sarvis can't see this) So do Army Privates.

Sarvis wrote:and special training to know how to actually rescue people in the water.

(NOTICE: Sarvis can't see this)And those army privates that receive the same training are Army Specialists.

Total Pay: ~24k
Total Compensation (assuming qualifying for retirement benefits): ~50k
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 8:31 pm

(NOTICE: Sarvis can't see this)
Furthermore:
http://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/ ... .00#Skills (This is a US DOL site.)

Job Zone One: Little or No Preparation Needed
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Fri May 13, 2011 8:35 pm

None of that changes the fact that you said lifeguards should earn $80k, and they actually earn the equivalent of $77k.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 8:36 pm

Sarvis wrote:None of that changes the fact that you said lifeguards should earn $80k, and they actually earn the equivalent of $77k.

Except for the ones I've used government statistics to show that there are lifeguards that make well more than that.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Fri May 13, 2011 9:53 pm

Sarvis wrote:None of that changes the fact that you said lifeguards should earn $80k, and they actually earn the equivalent of $77k.



You know you like to criticize my reading skills, but your's aint so hot either.

the maximum I think would be reasonable would be around 80k


emphasis MAXIMUM

If you retire after 30 years, then your retirement pension should not be too substantial as you have at least 1/3 of your working life left.


with the above adjustment to the OUTRAGEOUS pensions they are earning. They're earning a pension that I would guess is 2 or 3x better than the private sector on 30 years (instead of 45+) of work.

Oh and let me make it clear again... THE MAXIMUM...
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Ragorn » Fri May 13, 2011 10:56 pm

Actually, I think lifeguards should unionize and seek higher wages. I posted a link above to a job listing at a CA State Beach that pays a salary of $4000 for lifeguards. At least ONE lifeguard is making $4000 per year, which is UNACCEPTABLE. I propose we have the government step in and evaluate compensation, raise wages to a more competitive rate (I'm thinking $45k-50k) then levy a small tax on parking permits at all stateside beaches to subsidize the increase in salaries.

Easy enough.

Oh, and they should be registered as full-time employees, so they qualify for state-subsidized healthcare also. Lifeguarding is dangerous.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 11:03 pm

Ragorn wrote:Actually, I think lifeguards should unionize and seek higher wages. I posted a link above to a job listing at a CA State Beach that pays a salary of $4000 for lifeguards. At least ONE lifeguard is making $4000 per year, which is UNACCEPTABLE. I propose we have the government step in and evaluate compensation, raise wages to a more competitive rate (I'm thinking $45k-50k) then levy a small tax on parking permits at all stateside beaches to subsidize the increase in salaries.

Easy enough.

Oh, and they should be registered as full-time employees, so they qualify for state-subsidized healthcare also. Lifeguarding is dangerous.

How is it unacceptable if they're only working part time for three months? Furthermore, if it's the kiddie pool at the corner of 6th and vargas st? Your argument doesn't work.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Ragorn » Fri May 13, 2011 11:04 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Actually, I think lifeguards should unionize and seek higher wages. I posted a link above to a job listing at a CA State Beach that pays a salary of $4000 for lifeguards. At least ONE lifeguard is making $4000 per year, which is UNACCEPTABLE. I propose we have the government step in and evaluate compensation, raise wages to a more competitive rate (I'm thinking $45k-50k) then levy a small tax on parking permits at all stateside beaches to subsidize the increase in salaries.

Easy enough.

Oh, and they should be registered as full-time employees, so they qualify for state-subsidized healthcare also. Lifeguarding is dangerous.

How is it unacceptable if they're only working part time for three months? Furthermore, if it's the kiddie pool at the corner of 6th and vargas st? Your argument doesn't work.

How do you not understand? I linked the information above.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 13, 2011 11:22 pm

Simply put, $4,000 is perfectly acceptable for an unskilled laborer without a high school diploma working part-time for three months as a lifeguard at a small public pool.

The statistics quoted in the "echo-chamber" have been backed by government documentation that I made available.

Full time California lifeguards are earning excessive compensation, according to state auditors and the opinions of several posters here.

I'm not saying lifeguards shouldn't unionize. If they can do it without the influence of the other big labor unions, they probably should in their own interests.


But the fact of the matter is, the only manufactured outrage here is yours.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Kindi » Fri May 13, 2011 11:37 pm

i'd rather be outraged that 150,000 ppl died yesterday

gives everything else a different perspective imo
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Sat May 14, 2011 4:32 am

kiryan wrote:the maximum I think would be reasonable would be around 80k


emphasis MAXIMUM


Yes, they earn less than that. So...?
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Mon May 16, 2011 5:09 pm

No sarvis, the lifeguards in the article I posted are making that much or more and its an outrageous abuse of the tax payer.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby Sarvis » Mon May 16, 2011 6:42 pm

kiryan wrote:No sarvis, the lifeguards in the article I posted are making that much or more and its an outrageous abuse of the tax payer.


No, Kiryan. Read my posts again. 100k in the OC translates to $77k in a more average city. They are earning $77k, so they are earning less than you think they should.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Mon May 16, 2011 9:59 pm

No sarvis, having lived in OC, having frequented all the beaches named, I think the maximum they should make in OC is 80k with dramatically lower pension benefits.

MAXIMUM
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Thu May 19, 2011 9:33 pm

Ragorn here's more of that overtime that you say doesn't exist in the public sector.

Sarvis, this is how union pay actually works in general. not everywhere but in a lot of places. Cops have these loopholes too. Its a real problem when you have 1 guy making 2x his salary in OT. You should have 3 guys instead of 2... and thats before you consider the yearly future cost of pension spiking.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/201 ... f=obinsite

An LIRR engineer punched his ticket on the MTA gravy train again, pocketing nearly $175,000 in overtime and other perks in 2010 - his third straight year as one of the agency's top earners.

Though Dominick Masiello's base salary was $75,389, he took home more than triple that amount - a staggering $250,401, payroll records show.

The monster payday was nothing new for Masiello, 57. For the past three years, the Long Island man has ranked among the top 10 highest-paid workers in terms of overtime and extras
...
Masiello defended his haul, saying union work rules allowed him to rake in big bucks. For example, he made an extra day's pay when he was moved to a different station
...
But the official agreed Masiello has all along benefitted from arcane union work rules - and he wasn't the only one.

Dennis Reardon, a conductor, tripled his salary in 2010, turning a base of $75,389 into a $240,251 bonanza.
...
A second conductor, Benjamin Jankowski, also tripled his salary, thanks to $155,000 in overtime and other perks.

Transit advocates say the numbers show that the long-held practice of pension padding - working excessive overtime in the final years of a job to boost pension payments - is still alive and well.
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Thu May 19, 2011 9:39 pm

and other examples of how unions work. you guys gave them a pass when that dem said we might need to get our hands a little bloody. you really don't understand how powerful unions actually operate and how far they will go to protect their entitlements.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/201 ... assed.html
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Re: Oh those special interests.

Postby kiryan » Fri May 20, 2011 4:29 pm

More on these specific lifeguards

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/20/li ... each-city/

Those whose salaries are in question point out that they hold management roles, have decades of service and are considered public safety employees under the fire department, the same as fire captains and battalion chiefs. The fulltime guards train more than 200 seasonal lifeguards who make between $16 and $22 an hour, run a junior lifeguard program that brings in $1 million a year and oversee safety on nearly seven miles of sand.


== 14 lifeguards, 200 seasonal, thats supervising about 15 a piece. Also... the actual lifeguards make a more appropriate 16-22 an hour.

Base salaries for Newport Beach lifeguards range from $58,000 for the lowest-paid officer to $108,492 for the top-paid battalion chief, according to a 2010 city report on lifeguard pay. Adding in overtime, special compensation, pension, medical benefits, life insurance and other pay, two battalion chiefs cleared more than $200,000 in 2010, while the lowest-paid officer made more than $98,000.

== 58k to 108k in base pay. This could be reasonable depending on the distribution and the size of the OT (which is probably unreasonable). Also btw, union rules usually mean seniority determines preference on OT. As a previous business manager, I always considered salary in addition to seniroity when deciding who I let work OT (which is never). You don't let your $54 an hour guy work all the OT (so he can spike his pension) when the $29 an hour guy could handle it and wants it.

Newport Beach's lifeguards can also retire at 50 with 90 percent of their salary with 30 years of service, according to state data

== article states that in Los Angeles and San Diego you get 60% or 75% of your retirement.

The lifeguards' union is trying to avoid the reductions by striking a deal that could see them increase their pension contribution from 3.5 percent to 9 percent annually, while instituting a new pension tier for future hires, said Jacobsen

== 90% for 3.5 percent. Man that is a nice pension... and its defined benefit too! Wow who's suprised there is a union involved?

but all in all, its still outrageous to be paying a single lifeguard 200k in total compensation. even if any given particular isn't on the outrageous side. Clearly an abuse of the tax payer orchestrated by unions and politician lackeys. I could see paying these guys max 80k (which would still be a spectacular salary for the job and NO OT)... maybe maybe maybe 1 guy 100k and a much less generous pension. and saying they deserve the pay because real estate agents made a boat load of money... what the hell kind of argument is that?

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