They Got Bin Laden

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Teflor Lyorian
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They Got Bin Laden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon May 02, 2011 4:11 am

Go google it for yourself.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Mon May 02, 2011 4:43 am

no no Obama got bin laden
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby kiryan » Mon May 02, 2011 8:40 am

Good job Obama + military.

but what about this bullshit of burying him in the customs of his religion. Fuck that, quarter the body, build glass boxes, fill t with pig shit and put him on display around the US (and anyone who wants a loaner exhibit). Preserve his head in plastic, turn it into a toilet and put it on the national mall for anyone who wants to piss or shit down his throat.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ma ... aden-found

One of these couriers came in for special attention, mentioned by detainees by his nom de guerre and said to be one of the few couriers bin Laden trusted.
== mentioned by detainees undoubteldy interrogated with "harsh" methods

But officials said they were initially unable to identify him but finally did four years ago. They did not disclose his name to reporters on Sunday night.
== four years ago was the ground work that allowed Obama to make the right call

Two years ago, the CIA found the rough location where the courier and his brother lived in Pakistan, and on August last year they narrowed it down to a compound, in an affluent area about 35 miles north of Islamabad.
== 2 years ago while that was on Obama's watch, a lot credit probably needs to go to the guy who just vacated the office.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Corth » Mon May 02, 2011 11:31 am

Best news in a long time. I'm with Kiryan - wrap him in Pigskin like the Russians do to their terrorists. Deprives him of paradise and 72 virgins according to their wacky beliefs. But regardless - just happy like everyone else that he's gone.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon May 02, 2011 12:36 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:no no Obama got bin laden

Then Bush won the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan *roll*
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Sarvis » Mon May 02, 2011 12:48 pm

Image
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Ragorn » Mon May 02, 2011 1:53 pm

I'm gonna go ahead and celebrate the victory. It's not a Republican victory, or a Democratic victory. It's not the End of All Terrorism. But it's something worth celebrating, as Americans, without bickering too much about circumstances.

I think we can give it a rest for a day.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Sarvis » Mon May 02, 2011 2:03 pm

Ragorn wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and celebrate the victory. It's not a Republican victory, or a Democratic victory. It's not the End of All Terrorism. But it's something worth celebrating, as Americans, without bickering too much about circumstances.

I think we can give it a rest for a day.


I actually just overheard a coworker _complaining_ because "now Obama will be able to push through all his policies."

Give it a rest? Yeah... that'll happen.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Corth » Mon May 02, 2011 2:11 pm

Ragorn wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and celebrate the victory. It's not a Republican victory, or a Democratic victory. It's not the End of All Terrorism. But it's something worth celebrating, as Americans, without bickering too much about circumstances.

I think we can give it a rest for a day.


My sentiments exactly.

I was in Manhattan on 9/12/11. I actually had a job interview scheduled that day at 7 World Trade (SEC) but obviously wasn't there for that purpose. Seeing all the pictures of the 'missing' people was a very emotional experience. Everyone knew they were dead, and gosh I felt bad for the people hoping their daughters, parents, etc., we're just 'missing'. It's not something I speak about often but those events really put me into a very bad place for quite some time. I was in the top 10% of my law school class at the time, and basically I stopped going to school. Just didn't want to be in Manhattan. Somehow I managed to graduate - I'm good at exams - but my grades took a nosedive and probably had an undiagnosed case of clinical depression. When I heard they got Osama last night I instantly had a general feeling of calm and goodwill wash over me. I guess that's what 'closure' means.

And also - I am so thankful that they GOT him. It would have so much less satisfying if he had a heart attack or died of renal failure or something.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon May 02, 2011 2:58 pm

There is no peace without justice.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby kiryan » Mon May 02, 2011 4:04 pm

lol nice picture Sarvis.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby kiryan » Mon May 02, 2011 5:23 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/world ... en.html?hp

Its interesting to note what they specifically mentioned...

No phone, no cable tv, burned their trash, few windows.

I get the phone thing, I mean in the old days they could be used to listen into your home. I'm not sure if that is still the case, but there's been a # of stories about China's ability to turn on a domestic cell phone (even when its been "turned off" and listen).

Is that the same idea with cable tv? I suspect not in general, although if you let the CIA install your cable tv box it could be.

Burned their trash. Now thats a really interesting one. Besides the mail, any food trash could probably be analyzed for saliva to help ID the occupants.

Few windows... in presurized buildings they can literally hear everything going on in a room by reconstructing soundwaves from vibrations in the glass.

I'm not sure if they mentioned these things because they were so uncharacteristic of a wealthy / 1 million dollar household or whether these are specific avenues the cia wanted to exploit but couldn't due to the precautions the compound took.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Botef » Mon May 02, 2011 5:40 pm

Here is a good article about his compound.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05 ... -compound/

And some pictures from the outside.

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/obl-kill/obl-kill.htm
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby kiryan » Mon May 02, 2011 6:50 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05 ... t-prisons/

Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden's most trusted aides. The CIA got similar information from Mohammed's successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA prisons in Poland and Romania.

== The name of the courier who lead the US to bin laden was obtained from men subjected to "harsh interrogation" in secret CIA prisons. So much for the theory that torture wasn't giving us anything to work with.

== kudos to Obama for apparently taking unilateral action in a soverign foreign nation.. something I think many of us had doubts he was willing to do. I'm glad we didn't find a way to screw this up or let him get away.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon May 02, 2011 7:27 pm

I definitely applaud President Obama for continuing the Bush doctrine. It's the right policy in a very wrong world.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon May 02, 2011 8:07 pm

As more has been said about it, I really have to give kudos to Obama for sending in US forces. There are a lot of options, but putting US boots on the ground in hostile territory is a big gamble - in this case the right one.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Ragorn » Mon May 02, 2011 8:08 pm

kiryan wrote:== kudos to Obama for apparently taking unilateral action in a soverign foreign nation.. something I think many of us had doubts he was willing to do. I'm glad we didn't find a way to screw this up or let him get away.

Actually, when he was campaigning, he said he'd absolutely go nuts on Pakistan if he had to. Remember? You started a thread complaining about it.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Corth » Mon May 02, 2011 8:55 pm

Ragorn wrote:
kiryan wrote:== kudos to Obama for apparently taking unilateral action in a soverign foreign nation.. something I think many of us had doubts he was willing to do. I'm glad we didn't find a way to screw this up or let him get away.

Actually, when he was campaigning, he said he'd absolutely go nuts on Pakistan if he had to. Remember? You started a thread complaining about it.


I remember that. I thought (and still do think) it was an irresponsible statement. Violating Pakistan's sovereignty is a big deal. Imagine the Pakistani targeted a house in say, Virginia, to apprehend a criminal. Realistically, this thing works in one direction. If Pakistan has a problem with it.. well, they aren't going to do anything. The US on the other hand.. In this case, might wins. But it isn't something you take lightly. I didn't think that it was in the country's strategic interest for a credible presidential candidate to state that he would be willing to send US troops into Pakistan without it's permission - even if he actually is willing to do so.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Corth » Mon May 02, 2011 9:17 pm

You guys hear about the Bin Laden cocktail? Two shots and a splash of water. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon May 02, 2011 9:20 pm

Corth wrote:You guys hear about the Bin Laden cocktail? Two shots and a splash of water. :)

Comic gold.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby kiryan » Mon May 02, 2011 9:38 pm

Hmm thats not how I remember things. I think the GOP went nutz for a few weeks during the campaign because Obama wouldn't ever actually say he'd violate another country's soverignty to get OBL. Then he said it.

what is this nutz you are referring to. and actually, im slightly surprised it actually happened. although i wonder what the calculation was between flattening the building and bringing back proof he killed Osama. He made the right political move there... and probably the right operational move as well, but I do wonder if flying several blackhawk helicopters into pakistan to conduct an overnight raid was the best choice.

No dead US soldiers, confirmed kill and recovery of OBL it was the right choice and successful choice... but would a president not facing re-election and confident in himself (liek Bush) make the same choice?
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby kiryan » Mon May 02, 2011 9:52 pm

lol i remember this guy, he vowed not to shave his beard until OBL was dead or captured.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookou ... have-beard
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby kiryan » Tue May 03, 2011 5:49 pm

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/ ... JR20110503

The acts taken were "lawful, legitimate and appropriate in every way.
-- eric holder

wow really? he must mean lawful under US law, because I'm pretty damn sure Pakistan disagrees that it was lawful for the US to fly an op without their permission, kill a person within their territorial jurisidiction and then take everything in the compound they wanted (computers / papers etc).
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Sarvis » Tue May 03, 2011 5:59 pm

kiryan wrote:http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/03/us-binladen-holder-idUSTRE7424JR20110503

The acts taken were "lawful, legitimate and appropriate in every way.
-- eric holder

wow really? he must mean lawful under US law, because I'm pretty damn sure Pakistan disagrees that it was lawful for the US to fly an op without their permission, kill a person within their territorial jurisidiction and then take everything in the compound they wanted (computers / papers etc).


Unless we had an agreement with Pakistan to allow this for the specific case of Osama bin Laden.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby kiryan » Tue May 03, 2011 6:10 pm

Corth wrote:I remember that. I thought (and still do think) it was an irresponsible statement. Violating Pakistan's sovereignty is a big deal. Imagine the Pakistani targeted a house in say, Virginia, to apprehend a criminal. Realistically, this thing works in one direction. If Pakistan has a problem with it.. well, they aren't going to do anything. The US on the other hand.. In this case, might wins. But it isn't something you take lightly. I didn't think that it was in the country's strategic interest for a credible presidential candidate to state that he would be willing to send US troops into Pakistan without it's permission - even if he actually is willing to do so.


I do think it was an irresponsible statement... just like saying we were going to pull out of the wars in XYZ and try terrorists in civilian courts were irresponsible statements. Telling your enemy what you will do is a bad idea and not in America's interests.

However, he was campaigning for the job of president, of commander in chief, and we had good reason to seriously question whether he had the balls to put America's interets over the interests of other countries when push comes down to shove. He needed to say it, the American public/GOP demanded it and not only did he say it, he followed through... with violating Pakistan's soverigenity within spitting distance of their capital...

I'll still hit him over giving the enemy a withdrawal date, it was incredibly arrogant given he was on the outside looking in, and a specific date was not necessary to communicate his point that he would get out of the wars. Forutnately, after getting into office and seeing the reality of the situation, he has continued pretty much every Bush era policy.

==

I asked a question of whether he should've flown bombs and whether it was an issue of ego / political calcuation that they went with the more dangerous ground assault. After thinking about it, I say no. Obama made an extremely tough, politically risky call (imagine if they hadn't found Bin Laden). They didn't know who was in the compound, and weren't likely to figure it out. Any work with pakistan was likely to lead to a tip off and a loss of the opportunity. It was important to act, and necessary to use ground troops to verify we were getting the right people...

Very well done and does settle the question for me on whether Obama is too weak to act or too beholden to fantastic liberal ideals and deference to the world government. Still too much for my taste, but at least I know he's not paralyzed by his principles.

http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/03/ci ... -early-on/

this article pretty much echoes my analysis of the decision, specifically, they had the best intelligence they were goign to get and that this was their best lead in a long time so they had to act.

One thing they aren't going into too much detail about is how they knew there was a family living in the upper levels. This was probably known through advanced imaging equipment that can see through walls perhaps as even low tech as infared/heat. They knew exactly how many occupants were in the location... and the # of people and roughly characteristics (height) plus the fact that the upstairs occupants never left the premise probably was significant. Some of the stories talked about how the seal team practiced on a replica of the compound... and including likely locations of the occupants (read they knew their sleeping arrangements).
Last edited by kiryan on Tue May 03, 2011 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby kiryan » Tue May 03, 2011 6:12 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/03/us-binladen-holder-idUSTRE7424JR20110503

The acts taken were "lawful, legitimate and appropriate in every way.
-- eric holder

wow really? he must mean lawful under US law, because I'm pretty damn sure Pakistan disagrees that it was lawful for the US to fly an op without their permission, kill a person within their territorial jurisidiction and then take everything in the compound they wanted (computers / papers etc).


Unless we had an agreement with Pakistan to allow this for the specific case of Osama bin Laden.


Yes true thats a possibility... kind of like the drone missiles. We probably have an agreement but they get to claim otherwise in public.
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue May 03, 2011 8:48 pm

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If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby ssar » Tue May 03, 2011 9:12 pm

Nobody can really seriously condemn with authority Bin Laden being shot other than those in the room at the time. Given the environment, history and fact others there were armed let's give the shooter the benefit of the doubt.
The Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 Pakistan Compound mission should be cool though!
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Corth » Tue May 03, 2011 9:25 pm

I'm with you on that Kiryan. It was a gutsy call and absolutely the right thing to do. The world needed proof that UBL was dead. If they bombed the place to smithereens nobody would ever know. Obama gets high praise on this one.

Ever play stratego? I always likened UBL to the spy piece. Anyone on the board can kill it, except it's also the only thing on the board that can kill your best piece, the marshall. If your spy dies, the marshall can attack anything that moves with impunity - nothing outranks it. So the value of the spy is mostly in just being there. It's not so much about using it to kill the marshall as it just keeping it alive so the marshall can't be used liberally. And that means keeping it well hidden. Anyway, UBL was a living symbol for the jihadist cause - even if functionally he didn't do much anymore. It would actually serve Al Queda's goals quite well if he died and nobody knew it. His death is a crushing blow to their collective psyche and morale.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby kiryan » Tue May 17, 2011 4:23 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05 ... shot-deal/

The best blow by blow account so far. Assuming its accurate, they killed OBL at t+15 and spent 23 minutes or so blowing crap up and gathering the evidence / prisoners.

What is really interesting and I'm surprised not classified is discussion of the tactics and reason for the downed helicopted (I'm surprised its not classified).

Apparently, the night was hotter than expected so the helicopter was not responding well to the pilot. The weight was "calcualted to the ounce"... probably to ensure that the minimum amount of rotation on the helicopter blades etc. Due to the thinner than expected night air, the craft handled poorly. Really interesting if you ask me.

They were supposed to attack from the roof and the ground floor. but they skipped the roof landing due to the technical issues.

So pretty much this is a 1 shot deal... if you fail, even if you find him again you really cant go back in. The mission went wrong right from the get go... which is probably why there was no tolerance for anything other than a complete unconditional surrender (like OBL as soon as they saw him laying down on teh floor). They went in and the way i read it, straight executed him. Without the element of surprise, with a 1 time only mission going wrong from the get go. I can find nothing to complain about.

Other than failing to blow up the rotor!
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Re: They Got Bin Laden

Postby Ragorn » Tue May 17, 2011 5:05 pm

I think our soldiers adapted well to the situation and pulled off a very difficult (technically, politically, and emotionally) difficult mission. Cheers and brews all around.
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