2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felonies

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2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felonies

Postby kiryan » Thu May 26, 2011 4:25 pm

I certainly don't condone his actions. There is certainly a serious problem here and a danger to the children that had to be addressed... but is a six year prison sentence appropriate... is six felonies really the appropriate charges?

Perhaps he has a record and a history or some other reason to justify such a case, but if he was just a dumb 20 year old kid being stupid... I think incarceration was the wrong option. Severe punishment, but incarceration?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162- ... 04083.html

Weaver pleaded guilty in January to two counts of child abuse and the use of a deadly weapon in the commission of a crime. His plea avoided trial on six felony charges including attempted murder and kidnapping.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Corth » Thu May 26, 2011 6:42 pm

It seems kind of excessive to me as well. It was a pretty dumb idea - but certainly it doesn't sound like his intent was to kill the kids or kidnap them, and that was what he was charged with. He was trying to watch a basketball game so he tied them up. I've had momentary urges to do the same thing plenty of times - I just don't act on it.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Thilindel » Thu May 26, 2011 9:44 pm

I would think it two fold: Asphyxiation from being gagged (didn't see any pictures provided, only a guess) and being bound would infinitely suck if aspirating. . .- who knows how long he intended to leave them out there.

Then there's the "outrage" if this were "your child" and treated this way at school (some setting outside of the home). Either way, the story didn't provide pictures or anything descriptive as to a timeline in how long they had been in that state.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 27, 2011 1:03 am

Umm.. guys? You do realize that they weren't his kids right? Completely appropriate sentence.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Fri May 27, 2011 2:22 pm

Yup gotta go with tef here, if someone did that to my kids, girlfriend/boyfriend or not I think it's a little light.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby kiryan » Fri May 27, 2011 4:46 pm

I understand they weren't his kids... they were his girlfriends... and that it was extremely dangerous could've ended in death easily and for an utterly retarded reason...

however, is 6 years for a stupid mistake that had no actual real harmful effect rational? I'm assuming a lot of things, that he's not a scum bag with a history, that the kids were not actually harmed psychologically.

If this is the case, can you really justify sending him to jail for 6 years? Do you really think he needed to go to jail for 6 years to pay his debt to society... or to deter him from doing it again? To deter others? This seems excessive. I think 4 or 5 citations for child endangerment and 5-10k in fines maybe up to 1 month in jail would've been MORE than sufficient punishment (again assuming he's just an immature kid) to really make sure he understands how serious it is.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 27, 2011 5:13 pm

So offer 1 year and 5 lashings. Either that, or have him bound, gagged, and thrown into the garage for three hours for each child without checking to see if his asthma is bad that day. And still 1 year of jail time.

I mean, really, what are you suggesting as an alternative?
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby kiryan » Fri May 27, 2011 5:22 pm

2,000 hours of community service, fines, convictions for misdemeanor child endangerment assuming he wasn't a bad person... if he has a history of doing stupid crap like this, 6 years is fine.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri May 27, 2011 7:48 pm

kiryan wrote:2,000 hours of community service, fines, convictions for misdemeanor child endangerment assuming he wasn't a bad person... if he has a history of doing stupid crap like this, 6 years is fine.

I could probably agree with that, but 2,000 hours is a full time job for a year, aren't you concerned that it might limit his ability to support himself?
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Yayaril » Sat May 28, 2011 9:55 pm

I think it appropriate; one shouldn't do that to another human being.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Thilindel » Sun May 29, 2011 12:44 am

kiryan wrote:...however, is 6 years for a stupid mistake that had no actual real harmful effect rational? I'm assuming a lot of things, that he's not a scum bag with a history, that the kids were not actually harmed psychologically.


I think the fallacy with that particular part is intent, not outcome. I've never understood the law on that one. You aim at someone and pull the trigger: Miss = reckless/attempted Bullseye = "Murder". Actions are actions, but the intent should be what matters more generally.

That, and the negligence/inconsideration of even a short-term episode of gagging or choking could have ended in death. (not to drama it all out) Ever see the Joe Rogan video where the DJ 'wanted' Rogan to put a choke hold on him? He was out in just 2-3 seconds, due to bilateral carotid compression or a nice vagus nerve tanking. At any rate, that level of stupidity the guy did left very little window had anything gone awry.

In all honesty, I think a mandatory 3 years of "community" service featuring only 1-4 year olds with special needs would make him more considerate (I'd only hope!)
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sun May 29, 2011 4:18 am

Thilindel wrote:
kiryan wrote:...however, is 6 years for a stupid mistake that had no actual real harmful effect rational? I'm assuming a lot of things, that he's not a scum bag with a history, that the kids were not actually harmed psychologically.


I think the fallacy with that particular part is intent, not outcome. I've never understood the law on that one. You aim at someone and pull the trigger: Miss = reckless/attempted Bullseye = "Murder". Actions are actions, but the intent should be what matters more generally.

That, and the negligence/inconsideration of even a short-term episode of gagging or choking could have ended in death. (not to drama it all out) Ever see the Joe Rogan video where the DJ 'wanted' Rogan to put a choke hold on him? He was out in just 2-3 seconds, due to bilateral carotid compression or a nice vagus nerve tanking. At any rate, that level of stupidity the guy did left very little window had anything gone awry.

In all honesty, I think a mandatory 3 years of "community" service featuring only 1-4 year olds with special needs would make him more considerate (I'd only hope!)

You actually _want_ this guy near a bunch of special needs toddlers? Are you secretly a judge?

Lol
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Sundara » Mon May 30, 2011 6:18 pm

If that is *not* the first time he committed such acts on the kids that aren't even his, then I think he got what he deserve. Gagging and binding the kids, who's to say he hasn't done other stuff to harm those kids when the mother isn't around? But if that's the first time he's done something stupid like that to the kids, then perhaps 8 months to a year.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Corth » Tue May 31, 2011 3:18 pm

Thilindel wrote:
kiryan wrote:...however, is 6 years for a stupid mistake that had no actual real harmful effect rational? I'm assuming a lot of things, that he's not a scum bag with a history, that the kids were not actually harmed psychologically.


I think the fallacy with that particular part is intent, not outcome. I've never understood the law on that one. You aim at someone and pull the trigger: Miss = reckless/attempted Bullseye = "Murder". Actions are actions, but the intent should be what matters more generally.

That, and the negligence/inconsideration of even a short-term episode of gagging or choking could have ended in death. (not to drama it all out) Ever see the Joe Rogan video where the DJ 'wanted' Rogan to put a choke hold on him? He was out in just 2-3 seconds, due to bilateral carotid compression or a nice vagus nerve tanking. At any rate, that level of stupidity the guy did left very little window had anything gone awry.

In all honesty, I think a mandatory 3 years of "community" service featuring only 1-4 year olds with special needs would make him more considerate (I'd only hope!)


That's basically my concern. He was charged with attempted murder - and clearly that was not his intent. He should be charged with the crime he allegedly committed and be given an appropriate punishment for that crime if convicted. Reckless endangerment or something to that effect.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby kiryan » Tue May 31, 2011 4:50 pm

Teflor, yes its a years worth of a full time job of community service, I would not necessarily say he has to complete his CS in a year, spread out over 4 or 5 years would be fine with me... I'd even leave it up to him with a cap that it must be completed within 10 years and that each year he do no less than 200 hours (4 hours a week or a solid month).

To those that say the sentence is fine... what is your underlying moral theory? Proportional punishment? Deterrence effect? Retribution? Is he a danger to society? The sentence would seem to indicate that, but if he is just a 20 year old who made a stupid decision that resulted in no permanent damage... is 6 years in jail really appropriate retribution / rehabilitation.

Sundara, I agree... if he has a history of being irresponsible (I'm thinking primarily a criminal history) I'd feel better about a 6 year sentence. If he has a 'history' of being a poor babysitter, I still feel community service would be more appropriate for a first offense (assuming the "history" is not truly outrageous like popping them in the mouth and pushing them down stairs kind of crap).

Yaya, what if it was a 14 year old kid that did it to two kids he was supposed to be babysitting? 6 years in prison? 17.5 year old? 18 year old (still in hs)?

What role does the mother play in this. She obviously left her child in the care of someone who was not suitable to supervise children. Where are the charges for her? Was her apparent response part of the reason she didn't face charges? She's the innoncent victim and a good mom?

100% agree Corth... attempted murder charge is absolutely ridiculous and charges like these are something i truly hate about our criminal justice system. Its leverage, plead or we'll try you on attempted murder and you could go to jail for 50 years.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Sundara » Tue May 31, 2011 6:56 pm

The article doesn't leave much details such as history of the 20 year old. How long of a relationship the mother has with this guy, how long were the kids gagged and bounded for, etc., to really determine the appropriate sentence. The reason why I say 8 months to a year if that is his *first* stupid crime against those kids is because there is no excuse for anyone to treat the little ones like that. None. Small children are helpless and defenseless and don't always talk about the harms done to them. That alone is scary.

Again though, how long were these kids gagged and tied up for? 5 mins, 10mins, 15, 20?? then perhaps 8 to a year is a bit much, and community service might be appropriate - but really, not much details to really offer an opinion, I'm just going by *ifs*.

As for the mother, again, what's her situation? How long was she with this guy? Long enough to establish trust concerning the kids? Or is she the careless type that sees different guys and leaves her kids in the care of her boyfriends when she has to run an errand or something? If that's the case, she should be charged as well. I personally would not leave my kids (if I had any) with a bf I don't know well enough, and even if I did know him well enough, my kids would still go with me where ever I go (my responsibility as a mother, not the bf) - that's just my protective nature and a lot of mothers lack that. If there was a place I couldn't take my kids with me, then I'd have a family member, someone I'd trust, like a sister, etc. to watch them a bit.

Nobody is going to take better care of the children than the parent(s) themselves. But again, the article doesn't leave much details to offer my own personal opinion of a sentence. :)

You are right though Kiryan, murder he did not commit. And unfortunately, the justice system is flawed.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue May 31, 2011 7:06 pm

I do sometimes wonder if taking away a guy's weekends for a year, forced to do productive things is better not only for the convicted, society, and the victim than a year of actual jail time.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby kiryan » Tue May 31, 2011 7:07 pm

I take better care of my wife's kids (and our kids) than my wife or her ex husband ever did, ever would've.

There is no comparison between a "parent" by circumstance and biology and a person who has treated parenting as a serious obligation and invested the time and energy to be the best parent possible. Sometimes these co-exist in the same person, other times not. Be very careful about generalizing how you would parent to "parents" in general.

Turn on that single moms show, folks in jail are better parents than those folks.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue May 31, 2011 7:24 pm

kiryan wrote:I take better care of my wife's kids (and our kids) than my wife or her ex husband ever did, ever would've.

There is no comparison between a "parent" by circumstance and biology and a person who has treated parenting as a serious obligation and invested the time and energy to be the best parent possible. Sometimes these co-exist in the same person, other times not. Be very careful about generalizing how you would parent to "parents" in general.

Turn on that single moms show, folks in jail are better parents than those folks.

Kiryan is an emotional parent.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Sundara » Tue May 31, 2011 8:31 pm

Kiryan,

I'm fully aware that circumstances/situations are all different for all "parents" biological or not. Nobody is the same. I myself know "non-biological" parents, who make better parents than the biological ones. But I also know there are single moms out there who don't have that protective instinct for their children and can be too trusting with others they don't really know. Again, we don't know anything about the mother in this article to really judge her case with the children.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Tue May 31, 2011 10:52 pm

Yup I've meet some great gay parents who do a way better job than biological parents.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm

The reason why intent isn't everything:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/ ... 402917.php
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Pril » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:28 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:The reason why intent isn't everything:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/ ... 402917.php


LOL. Here's my question, i understand how one might fail to appear for court, but how the hell does one fail to appear for prison?
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Corth » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:25 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:The reason why intent isn't everything:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/ ... 402917.php


Bad example. He fired a gun at bus full of people (without intent of actually hitting anyone). He was properly charged with reckless endangerment and unlawful gun possession. Negligence or Recklessness implicitly means no intent. The mens rea element of the unlawful gun possession charge is satisfied by his intentional procurement of a regulated firearm without a license to possess same.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:21 pm

Corth wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:The reason why intent isn't everything:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/ ... 402917.php


Bad example. He fired a gun at bus full of people (without intent of actually hitting anyone). He was properly charged with reckless endangerment and unlawful gun possession. Negligence or Recklessness implicitly means no intent. The mens rea element of the unlawful gun possession charge is satisfied by his intentional procurement of a regulated firearm without a license to possess same.

It was not an example of the law, Corth. It is an example of how intention isn't and shouldn't be the primary factor by which we determine harm.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:37 pm

Sundara, I was specifically responding to this: "Nobody is going to take better care of the children than the parent(s) themselves." I have a real problem with people who don't parent with real effort.

Ragorn: yes they can be the best of parents. I even concede that statistically, they are better parents in 99+% of objective measures. They have to actually want children while most hetrosexual parents end up there as a matter of happenstance.

Corth, he didn't fire the gun at a bus of people, he was handling it on the bus and it discharged. I agree the charges are appropriate and I'm even willing to say he should get the book thrown at him based on the little evidence portrayed... possibility he was intending to use it in the commission of a crime, attempt to get his gf to take the rap, criminal history.

Pril, when you are sentenced, you are not always taken into custody and straight to jail if you are on bail. You can ask to have a little time to clear up your affairs before reporting. You can also "remain free" pending appeal. Perhaps he was free pending appeal, but the appeal never got filed. There are a few scenarios where you could be convicted and be required to report to jail at a later date in time.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Corth » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:48 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Corth wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:The reason why intent isn't everything:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/ ... 402917.php


Bad example. He fired a gun at bus full of people (without intent of actually hitting anyone). He was properly charged with reckless endangerment and unlawful gun possession. Negligence or Recklessness implicitly means no intent. The mens rea element of the unlawful gun possession charge is satisfied by his intentional procurement of a regulated firearm without a license to possess same.

It was not an example of the law, Corth. It is an example of how intention isn't and shouldn't be the primary factor by which we determine harm.


I don't know what 'determining harm' has to do with it. In order to be convicted of a crime, each element of the criminal statute needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. If there is an intent (mens rea) element then in the absence of such criminal intent the prosecution shouldn't bring charges, and if they do, the defendant should be acquitted. The guy who discharged a firearm on a bus did not intend to shoot anyone, so it would not be appropriate to charge him with attempted murder. The prosecution, appropriately, charged him with reckless endangerment (which does not include an intent element), and unlawful possession of a firearm. If he had killed someone, accidentally, then he would appropriately be charged with criminally negligent homicide (which also does not have an intent element), not murder (which does). Alternatively, in the example provided by Kiryan in his original post, the intent was to shut the kids up for a few minutes so that dumbass could watch basketball. It was not to kill those kids. Charging him with attempted murder, imho, is an abuse of prosecutorial discretion.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:21 pm

Corth wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Corth wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:The reason why intent isn't everything:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/ ... 402917.php


Bad example. He fired a gun at bus full of people (without intent of actually hitting anyone). He was properly charged with reckless endangerment and unlawful gun possession. Negligence or Recklessness implicitly means no intent. The mens rea element of the unlawful gun possession charge is satisfied by his intentional procurement of a regulated firearm without a license to possess same.

It was not an example of the law, Corth. It is an example of how intention isn't and shouldn't be the primary factor by which we determine harm.


I don't know what 'determining harm' has to do with it. In order to be convicted of a crime, each element of the criminal statute needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. If there is an intent (mens rea) element then in the absence of such criminal intent the prosecution shouldn't bring charges, and if they do, the defendant should be acquitted. The guy who discharged a firearm on a bus did not intend to shoot anyone, so it would not be appropriate to charge him with attempted murder. The prosecution, appropriately, charged him with reckless endangerment (which does not include an intent element), and unlawful possession of a firearm. If he had killed someone, accidentally, then he would appropriately be charged with criminally negligent homicide (which also does not have an intent element), not murder (which does). Alternatively, in the example provided by Kiryan in his original post, the intent was to shut the kids up for a few minutes so that dumbass could watch basketball. It was not to kill those kids. Charging him with attempted murder, imho, is an abuse of prosecutorial discretion.

Certainly, like I said, intent isn't everything. There is a large list of crimes in which intent doesn't enter the picture.
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Corth » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:40 pm

It's a pretty narrow category of crimes: those which are done negligently or recklessly. Generally speaking, criminal laws have intent (mens rea) requirements. This narrow category is the exception to the rule. Moreover, with a crime like 'attempted murder', which our basketball fan was charged with, intent is the primary concern.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:23 pm

The actual list of crimes is large, Corth. The list of the types of crimes is short. (Yes, you and I are in agreement, you've just misunderstood me.)
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Thilindel » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:55 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:Yup I've meet some great gay parents who do a way better job than biological parents.


Are you saying that they do a faaaabuuulooouuussss job?
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Re: 2-6 years for binding and gagging your GF's kids, 6 felo

Postby Thilindel » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:11 pm

kiryan wrote:What role does the mother play in this. She obviously left her child in the care of someone who was not suitable to supervise children. Where are the charges for her? Was her apparent response part of the reason she didn't face charges? She's the innoncent victim and a good mom?


This goes almost without saying: Has it been established that the person she left the children with was of such capacity to potentially inflict harm? Things/behaviors of this nature are generally episodic and not normally witnessed. There's the public, personal, then private (where obviously nobody's looking/recording ...or so the one observed thinks...) persona. I knew a -really- loving girl in the mid 90's that nobody would EVER suspect of being remotely harmful towards anyone. Then to find her in WTHR's evening news, having pimping out the children in her care to an undercover police officer for the mere rate of $50 per 15 minutes. I guess there really was a reason she would only watch 2 year olds or younger!

Intent, intent, intent. So spectral in nature. You have drunk jerks not knowing what they're doing versus toddler-like anger/tantrums, versus tripping and inadvertently shoving a mother holding her baby to the floor, etc. So glad I didn't further myself in law. Either side, you'll end up with a situation where you do -not- want to defend or advocate.
Grundar tells you 'I took on the entire football team once. The only reason my mom knew later was because I had a runny nose'

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