the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is epic?

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the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is epic?

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:15 pm

I love this. The Democrats in blindingly stupid ignorance and arrogance call for a "clean" debt ceiling raising vote in a letter signed by 97 democrats. They get utterly crushed 318 to 97 (76.5% to 23.5%).

I'm not sure what they were thinking, that they could run on the GOP playing politics and refusing to bring things to a vote or allow debate on amendments like Dems did over the past 2 years (GOP was playing politics also obvious)? Did they think they could run on the "no" votes of the evil GOP engaged in risky behavior or shutting down government?

Instead, they split their caucus 50/50 with many forced to essentially go on record against social services... and at least 97 have gone on record saying they're willing just to keep raising the credit limit with no plan on getting back to fiscal sanity. They give the GOP cover to show their unified committment to not raising the debt ceiling without reform.

What a D cluster. 75% against just raising the debt ceiling. The got their bluff called worse than a 8 year old with his hand in the cookie jar. Its going to hurt them at the negotiating table going forward.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 0487.story
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Corth » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:44 pm

It's absolutely insane that the debt ceiling is subject to politicization. It would be an utter catastrophe if the US defaulted on it's debt. Failing to raise the debt ceiling simply isn't an option - and even talking about not raising it can be damaging if investors start to think that in fact they might not raise it. This isn't the right time or place to carry on a debate about fiscal policy. If you are talking about the Federal budget, then sure - shut down the government for all I care. But to put the full faith and credit of the US government into jeopardy is fucking stupid.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:51 pm

Corth, what do we do when this country is at 23 trillion in debt under the Obama budget in 2020 and paying 850 billion a year in interest? That is 9 fucking years away and mind you when did an executive budget ever track to reality; they are consistently over projectign revenue and under projecting expenses? 23 trillion and 850 a billion are the floor.

This is about the faith and credit of the USA. Surely you realize this.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:03 pm

kiryan wrote:Corth, what do we do when this country is at 23 trillion in debt under the Obama budget in 2020 and paying 850 billion a year in interest?


Depends, if Republicans are in control we're start a couple wars but keep the funding "off the books" and then lower taxes for the top 1% of the country in the hopes that it will spur spending and increase tax revenue. Then we'll add an entire new Department of something, ensuring it's at least somewhat redundant with 1 or 2 other departments we already have.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:04 pm

I'd also be willing to trade a small 1 year debt ceiling limit increase for unconditional repeal of ACA and a 1 year committment to reforming medicare and a bipartsian reform of healthcare.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Corth » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:05 pm

What do you do? You argue fiscal policy during a budget vote when it is appropriate to do so. You don't play chicken with a potential catastrophic result for the country.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:18 pm

There does, however, seem to be the support of the people to play chicken.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Corth » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:42 pm

That is beside the point. We do not elect politicians to vote according to poll results. Granted, that often happens - but if the will of the mob is dispositive then why even have debates? Just have a national polling service. The fact of the matter is that Joe Six Pack does not understand the ramifications of failing to extend the debt ceiling. The politicians, on the other hand, do know better.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:34 pm

Philosophically, I agree with you.

However, I can not ignore the reality that this train wreck has been coming for decades. I can not ignore the fact that the democrats did not even bother to pass a budget last year despite having more than enough power to pass one unilaterraly. I can not ignore the fact that the president put forth a budget that was RIDICULOUS from the onset after passing a huge new entitlement program that can not possibly actually result in lower spending ever period.

I was reading a Reader's Digest from 1983 that I had read as a kid. One of the main stories was the shortage of doctors and the escalating costs. 19 fucking 83. Politicians have proven over the course of decades that they CAN NOT ADDRESS THE DIFFICULT ISSUES. They must be forced or as Obama felt necessary, do it unilaterally.

Wouldn't you be a fool to think that the deficit will ever be addressed in a budget discussion? What happened this past winter... They couldn't cut 100 billion, they maybe cut 39 billion after a rancorous debate and grandstanding on every side of the aisle. And accoding to some reports, they didn't even actually cut 39 billion... some of it is supposed cost savings or programs that were already cut. Was it one half of one percent of the budget that they managed to cut?

Really, we might as well wait for a rainbow and a pot of gold to solve the deficit... or do you really think the Democrats will run against the "harsh" and "extreme" cuts the republicans "want," win the house or hold their ground in the senate.. then make the necessary cuts? Do you own any bridges in Brooklyn?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby torkur » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:40 am

kiryan wrote:Philosophically, I agree with you.

However, I can not ignore the reality that this train wreck has been coming for decades. I can not ignore the fact that the democrats did not even bother to pass a budget last year despite having more than enough power to pass one unilaterraly. I can not ignore the fact that the president put forth a budget that was RIDICULOUS from the onset after passing a huge new entitlement program that can not possibly actually result in lower spending ever period.

I was reading a Reader's Digest from 1983 that I had read as a kid. One of the main stories was the shortage of doctors and the escalating costs. 19 fucking 83. Politicians have proven over the course of decades that they CAN NOT ADDRESS THE DIFFICULT ISSUES. They must be forced or as Obama felt necessary, do it unilaterally.

Wouldn't you be a fool to think that the deficit will ever be addressed in a budget discussion? What happened this past winter... They couldn't cut 100 billion, they maybe cut 39 billion after a rancorous debate and grandstanding on every side of the aisle. And accoding to some reports, they didn't even actually cut 39 billion... some of it is supposed cost savings or programs that were already cut. Was it one half of one percent of the budget that they managed to cut?

Really, we might as well wait for a rainbow and a pot of gold to solve the deficit... or do you really think the Democrats will run against the "harsh" and "extreme" cuts the republicans "want," win the house or hold their ground in the senate.. then make the necessary cuts? Do you own any bridges in Brooklyn?


You've proved it's been going on for years, both parties are guilty, and nothing changes in Washington. How does this have anything to do with not raising the debt ceiling? Will the 2nd Great Depression these morons are about to cause by defaulting suddenly fix the budget somehow? Going by polling just proves that the average American is now too stupid to understand basic credit and we need to stop praying for miracles and start fixing the education system.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:52 am

torkur wrote:You've proved it's been going on for years, both parties are guilty, and nothing changes in Washington. How does this have anything to do with not raising the debt ceiling? Will the 2nd Great Depression these morons are about to cause by defaulting suddenly fix the budget somehow? Going by polling just proves that the average American is now too stupid to understand basic credit and we need to stop praying for miracles and start fixing the education system.

Sure, blame the Republicans for doing what the American people elected them to do: oppose Obama who stubbornly ignores the will of the American people. Totally don't place any of the blame squarely on Obama (currently) who spent Federal dollars up to the debt limit in the first place.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby torkur » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:04 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
torkur wrote:You've proved it's been going on for years, both parties are guilty, and nothing changes in Washington. How does this have anything to do with not raising the debt ceiling? Will the 2nd Great Depression these morons are about to cause by defaulting suddenly fix the budget somehow? Going by polling just proves that the average American is now too stupid to understand basic credit and we need to stop praying for miracles and start fixing the education system.

Sure, blame the Republicans for doing what the American people elected them to do: oppose Obama who stubbornly ignores the will of the American people. Totally don't place any of the blame squarely on Obama (currently) who spent Federal dollars up to the debt limit in the first place.


torkur wrote:You've proved it's been going on for years, both parties are guilty, and nothing changes in Washington.


Too stupid to read tonight I take it?

If the American people polled at 77% to nuke China tomorrow and Obama opposed that, would you expect the Republicans to do that too? Not raising the debt ceiling is nearly as stupid an idea and should be beyond politics. Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Obama all raised the debt ceiling during your lifetime.....so there is plenty of blame for how it got there.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:08 am

torkur wrote:Too stupid to read tonight I take it?

Nope, just checking to see if you were going to jump straight to an opportunistic insult when I posted something non-insulting and neutral. You did, but it wasn't too bad. I'll keep reading your posts.

FYI, Americans have always been too stupid to understand credit. So are Europeans. Asians. So is anyone who can actually get credit.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Corth » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:04 pm

As an aside - Obama as Senator voted to not increase the debt ceiling - which I'm sure he now regrets.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:31 pm

torkur wrote:
kiryan wrote:Philosophically, I agree with you.

However, I can not ignore the reality that this train wreck has been coming for decades. I can not ignore the fact that the democrats did not even bother to pass a budget last year despite having more than enough power to pass one unilaterraly. I can not ignore the fact that the president put forth a budget that was RIDICULOUS from the onset after passing a huge new entitlement program that can not possibly actually result in lower spending ever period.

I was reading a Reader's Digest from 1983 that I had read as a kid. One of the main stories was the shortage of doctors and the escalating costs. 19 fucking 83. Politicians have proven over the course of decades that they CAN NOT ADDRESS THE DIFFICULT ISSUES. They must be forced or as Obama felt necessary, do it unilaterally.

Wouldn't you be a fool to think that the deficit will ever be addressed in a budget discussion? What happened this past winter... They couldn't cut 100 billion, they maybe cut 39 billion after a rancorous debate and grandstanding on every side of the aisle. And accoding to some reports, they didn't even actually cut 39 billion... some of it is supposed cost savings or programs that were already cut. Was it one half of one percent of the budget that they managed to cut?

Really, we might as well wait for a rainbow and a pot of gold to solve the deficit... or do you really think the Democrats will run against the "harsh" and "extreme" cuts the republicans "want," win the house or hold their ground in the senate.. then make the necessary cuts? Do you own any bridges in Brooklyn?


You've proved it's been going on for years, both parties are guilty, and nothing changes in Washington. How does this have anything to do with not raising the debt ceiling? Will the 2nd Great Depression these morons are about to cause by defaulting suddenly fix the budget somehow? Going by polling just proves that the average American is now too stupid to understand basic credit and we need to stop praying for miracles and start fixing the education system.


I don't give a shit about the polling. I'm not saying they have the right or responsibility to do this because of the polling. I'm saying it has to be done and now is better than later, especially when later has never come.

The Democrats barely passed ACA last year and 5+ decades? Why didn't they kick the can down the road again instead? If it was right for Democrats to pass ACA, then its right for Republicans to make this happen if they can.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:40 pm

Corth wrote:As an aside - Obama as Senator voted to not increase the debt ceiling - which I'm sure he now regrets.


Yes, he admits its a mistake now. He'dve cast a different vote if he "knew what he knew now". Which should've been an issue libs and independents took seriously during the 2008 campaign, instead they voted obamamania. Also despite Obama's change of heart now that it benefits him instead of hurts his enemies, only 97 of the Democrats in the house heeded the apparently "wise" counsel of the president. 82 DEMOCRATS VOTED AGAINST RAISING THE LIMIT joining ALL THE REPUBLICANS.

So who's foolish here, the president who at one point in time voted nay and now wishes he had voted yea and wants to spend us to 23 trillion in debt in 10 years, or the 312 people who have stood up and said we can not keep spending and we will do something.

The bigger question is why did he vote against the debt ceiling limit. He was playing politics on the war. So now the GOP is playing politics with the debt ceiling limit on their most important (albeit rediscovered) platform issue, government spending and fiscal conservatism. If its good for the goose, its good for the gander.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04 ... dline-mid/

As a senator in 2006, Obama voted against raising the debt limit. But White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said the president now views that vote as a "mistake."
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Corth » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:23 pm

http://www.businessinsider.com/moodys-w ... ing-2011-6

What this demonstrates is even the mere fact that the debt ceiling topic is up for debate is potentially damaging.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:42 pm

I agree that having a debate is dangerous. Is it more or less dangerous than just passing an increase and expecting the government to take care of it next year. You want to put money on whether structural reforms to deficit spending can be accomplished during an election year... let alone just a regular year?

We may save the credit rating for today and maybe a couple years, but what happens in 5 years when taxes necsesarily go up and that affect on the economy. A lost decade? A great great depression? Will our debt be AAA in the middle of a great depression or when all of our income tax is going to pay interest on our debt in an economy that is 70% consumer driven?

Secondly, I think Moody's would be satisfied with an adopted plan or even a statement from Geithner that he would pay bond holders first in the event we get to August 2nd without a debt limit increase. Course if Geithner and Obama give them that, they will have less leverage. Why does the 50% of democrats and 100% of the GOP have to give up their leverage instead?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby torkur » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:58 am

So let's scale this down a little.....

You run your household. You have a mortgage and thousands in credit card debt. Your wife and kids insist on spending a fortune every month and you don't make enough money to pay for it, hence the credit card debt. Your wife is too lazy to get a job and increase the family income. Your kids steal money out of your wallet to buy stuff for their friends.

Your response is to stop paying the credit cards and the mortgage... to "show them"... because you'll end up too broke to pay stuff off eventually? When your house ends up in foreclosure and you file for bankruptcy due to the credit cards, how does that do shit to teach your wife about increasing the household income and your kids to stop spending money on their friends?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:19 am

I'm not sure it can be scaled down, nor am I sure it is an accurate assessment of what's actually going on.

The debt ceiling simply doesn't allow the nation to borrow any more money, but the nation is not broke. We have ample cash, cash reserves, assets, etc. should we chose to use them. We could simply stop spending money and use to pay down debt what we planned to pay for something else.

Or, like back in the railroad days, sell Federal assets to raise funds/get things done.

Or, like they did just a few months ago, the Fed could just print some more money (similar to quantitative easing).

Or, like back in the days of FDR, the president could just issue an executive order that the entire nation surrender its gold to the United States government. (EO 6102)

There are plenty of alternatives. Obama just doesn't want to be seen as the guy turning the spigot of American entitlement off. I understand why he doesn't want to be the guy, yet leadership must come from the top, and someone has to at least slow that spigot.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Corth » Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:30 am

Well, I dont know about cash reserves... But there are certainly vast amounts of assets at the government's disposal. Real estate, gold at fort knox, strategic oil reserves, millitary equipment, etc.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:33 am

Corth wrote:Well, I dont know about cash reserves... But there are certainly vast amounts of assets at the government's disposal. Real estate, gold at fort knox, strategic oil reserves, millitary equipment, etc.

By cash reserves, I'm speaking to unspent budgeted dollars. The government has options in contracts to delay or cancel delivery, and there's certainly a bunch of things that are optional to some degree, suspension of certain government aid, etc.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Corth » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:02 pm

Right - I understand that. Tim Pawlenty I believe had an interesting suggestion on that subject. Essentially pass legislation that creates priorities for US spending when there is insufficient money. First the bondholders (to avoid a default), second the military, etc.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:22 am

"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:17 am

I don't know if pawlenty was the first to suggest that... and I'm not really enthused about paying creditors before paying say social security or welfare... but I'd rather pay bond holders first than raise the debt ceiling... unless there is structural deficit reform.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:53 am

Personally, I plan on making social security the icing on the cake of retirement. People that are relying upon it seriously made some poor decisions earlier in life.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:44 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/0 ... 71480.html

democrat who says we should not raise the debt ceiling without long term deficit reduction. She also says its basically medicare that needs to be discussed, but also suggests that short term spending can't be touched. Course she probably also thinks deficit reduction means higher taxes.

regardless, I think it adds further credence to the GOP position no raising of the cap without deficit reduction.

--

another thought i had. Did the GOP screw themselves by passing the extension of tax cuts back in December. They got extension they wanted... the dems then pushed through at leats 1 controversial measure. Now... with the debt limit showdown, Obama wants higher taxes on the rich.

Read an article the other day that said it sounds like a compromise to raise taxes and cut spending, but the spending comes back right away and the tax hikes stay so fiscal conservatives get the short end of the stick on that deal. GOP is right to refuse to raise taxes and only be open to spending reductions. I agree with cutting spending, but it seems like cutting taxes can be cut year by year as well...
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:07 pm

kiryan wrote:Read an article the other day that said it sounds like a compromise to raise taxes and cut spending, but the spending comes back right away


GOP is right to refuse to raise taxes and only be open to spending reductions.



So the entire GOP plan is to do something they know will be undone next year and won't work? And you think that's the best option?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Corth » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:05 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Personally, I plan on making social security the icing on the cake of retirement. People that are relying upon it seriously made some poor decisions earlier in life.


Agree mightily.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:16 am

Corth wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Personally, I plan on making social security the icing on the cake of retirement. People that are relying upon it seriously made some poor decisions earlier in life.


Agree mightily.



Because it's all about choice, and nothing at all to do with opportunity or circumstance. :roll:
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:06 am

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Personally, I plan on making social security the icing on the cake of retirement. People that are relying upon it seriously made some poor decisions earlier in life.

Agree mightily.

Because it's all about choice, and nothing at all to do with opportunity or circumstance. :roll:

Yup. You're simply not accepting that some people will have more than others. That's a truth of the existence you are so out of touch with.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:56 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Personally, I plan on making social security the icing on the cake of retirement. People that are relying upon it seriously made some poor decisions earlier in life.

Agree mightily.

Because it's all about choice, and nothing at all to do with opportunity or circumstance. :roll:

Yup. You're simply not accepting that some people will have more than others. That's a truth of the existence you are so out of touch with.



That conflicts with what I said how? Two people can make the same choices and one will still have less than the other. Circumstance and opportunity.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:07 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Personally, I plan on making social security the icing on the cake of retirement. People that are relying upon it seriously made some poor decisions earlier in life.

Agree mightily.

Because it's all about choice, and nothing at all to do with opportunity or circumstance. :roll:

Yup. You're simply not accepting that some people will have more than others. That's a truth of the existence you are so out of touch with.

That conflicts with what I said how? Two people can make the same choices and one will still have less than the other. Circumstance and opportunity.

Yes, that's exactly the truth that I said you weren't accepting. It's how life works at all levels. Two guys have a similar business strategy, they make virtually the same decisions. The one that started with 2.3 mil goes bankrupt and fails. The one that started with 3.5 mil just barely makes it, becoming a huge success. It's pretty normal stuff there.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Corth » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:45 pm

It's just a basic understanding that SS likely will not be sufficient to provide a decent retirement income. Certainly there are people who don't really have a choice in the matter. But to the extent that this recognition can provide some meaningful guidance then it's worth noting. Maybe you buy a used car instead of that new one you really want. Or you go out to eat less. Whatever people can do to avoid dependence upon SS - even if it's very little - will probably be very helpful to them in the future.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:57 pm

Corth wrote:It's just a basic understanding that SS likely will not be sufficient to provide a decent retirement income. Certainly there are people who don't really have a choice in the matter. But to the extent that this recognition can provide some meaningful guidance then it's worth noting. Maybe you buy a used car instead of that new one you really want. Or you go out to eat less. Whatever people can do to avoid dependence upon SS - even if it's very little - will probably be very helpful to them in the future.


Corth, there are people who have never been able to afford a new car. People who can't afford to eat out. People who need government assistance just to feed themselves and/or their kids.

Further, let's say everyone did invest in retirement funds of some sort. In the end you'd have the same situation: a bunch of people without enough money to retire. Maybe their mutual fund didn't do as well as others. Maybe everyone's funds grew at the same amount no one will be able to afford retirement.

As a society we love those movies where the hard luck kid makes himself into a success through sheer determination, but we also love those movies where one guy can take out an army. Neither are particularly realistic.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:35 pm

Sarvis wrote:Corth, there are people who have never been able to afford a new car. People who can't afford to eat out. People who need government assistance just to feed themselves and/or their kids.


That is exactly the problem, there are people who can't afford to eat out. Now show me someone who has never eaten out, or who hasn't eaten out in the last 30 days. I've eaten out exactly 1x in the last 30 days. Maybe you can find 1, but can you find the 40 million or so that are living beneath the poverty level who haven't?

Sarvis wrote:Further, let's say everyone did invest in retirement funds of some sort. In the end you'd have the same situation: a bunch of people without enough money to retire. Maybe their mutual fund didn't do as well as others. Maybe everyone's funds grew at the same amount no one will be able to afford retirement.


I'd like to add "to the degree of comfort and luxury they would prefer with unlimited healthcare" to your "no one will be able to afford retirement". However, you are basically right, some people are going to fail despite making "good choices". but why should we expect government to take care of them. What happened to relying on your own social safety net, your firends, your family, your social organizations (churches). If you screwed up life bad enough you find yourself failin with no saftey net... you've made more than a few bad choices.

Sarvis wrote:As a society we love those movies where the hard luck kid makes himself into a success through sheer determination, but we also love those movies where one guy can take out an army. Neither are particularly realistic.


Right, but generally good effort generally results in generally livable lives. We're talking about normal and exceptional.

Why do liberals look at every case of poverty as "unfair or some sort of discrimination" and attribute no blame to the individuals? or every situation where you made the best decisions and fell flat on your ass as the rule not the exception? Explain away why kids can't be bothered to go to school or parents can't be bothered to check the homework or go to the parent teacher conferences because they have to work... I have to work, I figure out how to get it done. Why people on food stamps can't be bothered to walk a mile or take a bus to buy groceries at a super market instead of at a high priced convenience store?

Why would you expect people to help themselves when we try and give them everything instead?

I was reading a letter to the editor the other day for my local paper (at least I think thats where this story comes from). Women comes in with a food stamp card and buys $300 worth of lobster. I hope she was selling it for cash... I really do. I hope she was not arrogantly thinking she was entitled to eat lobster.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:44 pm

Furthermore, the general guidance to avoid relying upon social security or the Federal government by extension for anything is good advice, regardless of circumstances or situation. Self-reliance (coupled with sociality) is the best guidance for those who don't want to suffer at the hands of others.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:47 pm

kiryan wrote:I was reading a letter to the editor the other day for my local paper (at least I think thats where this story comes from). Women comes in with a food stamp card and buys $300 worth of lobster. I hope she was selling it for cash... I really do. I hope she was not arrogantly thinking she was entitled to eat lobster.

What if this was in Maine and lobster is as cheap as beef?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:54 pm

fair enough. Is lobster really $2-$3 a pound in Maine? If you're on food stamps, you shouldn't be paying more than $3 a pound for your meat (adjusting for market factors). If only chicken is the only choice at that price level, then you eat chicken.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:11 pm

kiryan wrote:fair enough. Is lobster really $2-$3 a pound in Maine? If you're on food stamps, you shouldn't be paying more than $3 a pound for your meat (adjusting for market factors). If only chicken is the only choice at that price level, then you eat chicken.

That seems like a highly arbitrary limitation. Shouldn't we be controlling this by dollars instead?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Kindi » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:35 pm

no
Last edited by Kindi on Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:42 pm

How wonderfully irrelevant and misplaced.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Corth » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:10 am

Sarvis,

Recognizing that some people are so destitute that they cannot and do not afford even some of the most basic luxuries of modern living, for the vast majority of the people in the US it is a good idea to proceed under the assumption that SS will not provide them with sufficient retirement income. Does that more or less satisfy your concerns?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:21 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
kiryan wrote:fair enough. Is lobster really $2-$3 a pound in Maine? If you're on food stamps, you shouldn't be paying more than $3 a pound for your meat (adjusting for market factors). If only chicken is the only choice at that price level, then you eat chicken.

That seems like a highly arbitrary limitation. Shouldn't we be controlling this by dollars instead?


Philosophically yes... We should give each person who "qualifies" an "appropriate" amount of $$ which is just exactly "sufficient" to "meet their needs" and if they can't meet their needs then they starve. Any excess should be returned to the state. Unfortunately, we won't allow this to happen.

Under the same doctrine that we have to regulate banks if we are going to bail them out, we have to regulate food stamp recipients if we are going to bail them out.

If people are too stupid to know how to spend our precious tax dollars that they have no right to. That if you are poor, you don't buy lobster, then we have to tell them and penalize them when they don't do whats good for them (you know like fines against the banks).

Every food stamp recipient should be required to report their purchases (this is easily done in most states because they have shifted to a debit card) and we should have auditors looking at their purchasing habits and doing education as well as "investigations" and ultimately fining people when they make inappropriate purchases. For example, shopping too often at a convenience store or buying lobster.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:38 pm

kiryan wrote:Every food stamp recipient should be required to report their purchases (this is easily done in most states because they have shifted to a debit card) and we should have auditors looking at their purchasing habits and doing education as well as "investigations" and ultimately fining people when they make inappropriate purchases.


I'm fine with that.

For example, shopping too often at a convenience store or buying lobster.


If you can show that a better store is realistically available to them. 2 miles, uphill both ways, carrying a weeks worth of groceries for a family of four... not realistic.

Also, if lobster is cheaper than chicken then who cares?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:33 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:

For example, shopping too often at a convenience store or buying lobster.


If you can show that a better store is realistically available to them. 2 miles, uphill both ways, carrying a weeks worth of groceries for a family of four... not realistic.

Also, if lobster is cheaper than chicken then who cares?


It is realistic, I mean really as a society we've gotten lazy. It was nothing for people to walk everywhere a decade or 2 ago, now we can't be expected to walk to grocery stores rather than a convience store? You can get ALOT more food for tye same amount of money from a grocery store, if that means you have to suck it up and walk there than do it. Take the bus, borrow a ride or even walk there. It drives me nuts when people can't put in a little effort when in reality they are doing nothing but benefitting themselves. More savings means more food. Being lazy and allowing life to pass you by is part of the reason alot of these people are on welfare
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:54 pm

Pretty much what amena said. 2 miles is not too far to walk, whats that 15 minutes, 20 tops? Much less on a bike. Bringing groceries back from that far is an issue... but on the other hand, poverty is highly correlated with obesity and urban settings (much less than 2 miles to your grocery store). Maybe they'll buy less food and lose weight if they have to walk back and forth every day!

I don't care if they eat lobster if its the same price as beef or chicken. If Lobster is $15 a pound like it is everywhere I've ever lived, then no, put the pound of lobster down down and buy 5 pounds of beef or chicken or pork.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:08 pm

As a practical issue, many welfare recipients have to watch the kids or live in dangerous areas. Simply put, we should just attempt to minimize monetary support to stave off poverty related starvation. And not even all of it, just most of it. After all, private charity exists.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:36 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:

For example, shopping too often at a convenience store or buying lobster.


If you can show that a better store is realistically available to them. 2 miles, uphill both ways, carrying a weeks worth of groceries for a family of four... not realistic.

Also, if lobster is cheaper than chicken then who cares?


It is realistic, I mean really as a society we've gotten lazy. It was nothing for people to walk everywhere a decade or 2 ago, now we can't be expected to walk to grocery stores rather than a convience store? You can get ALOT more food for tye same amount of money from a grocery store, if that means you have to suck it up and walk there than do it. Take the bus, borrow a ride or even walk there. It drives me nuts when people can't put in a little effort when in reality they are doing nothing but benefitting themselves. More savings means more food. Being lazy and allowing life to pass you by is part of the reason alot of these people are on welfare


Like I said, let me see you walk to the store and buy a weeks worth of groceries for a family.


The place I used to live at in Rochester was just on the edge of the "ghetto." There was a convenience store across the street, and there _used_ to be a wegmans about a mile and a half away (which at walking speed would be a 2 hour round trip.) It closed down though (can't imagine them not being profitable since they were right next to U of R and got all the college students shopping, but who knows?)

Now the closest super market to that area is 5 miles away. The average person walks what, 3mph? So 5 hour round trip.

That was realistic on Little House on the Prairie of course, but then they grew most of their own food and only needed the general store occasionally.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:51 am

Backing up a bit, I started this post yesterday and didn't get a chance to finish it...

kiryan wrote:parents can't be bothered to check the homework or go to the parent teacher conferences because they have to work...


Exactly, Kiryan. This is circumstance. How many adults wish they had done better in school? Shouldn't their parents have made them do so. If your parents sucked, good luck at achieving a decent life. That is not a personal choice, that is a circumstance.

Why would you expect people to help themselves when we try and give them everything instead?


Do you realize that the vast majority of people don't want to be on welfare, and most get off of welfare relatively quickly?

"The welfare system is an extremely dynamic system. In an "average" year, about one-half of the AFDC caseload leaves the welfare rolls. The best available estimates indicate that between one-half and two-thirds of those who leave do so because they have found paid employment. A small percentage (less than 15 percent) leave for marriage and the remainder leave for a variety of other reasons. Those who leave are replaced by new applicants who have never received assistance before and by families who have received assistance previously and are returning to receive assistance again." - http://www.urban.org/publications/900288.html

Being on welfare is not "living the good life." People do not WANT it, for the most part. It is something they use to get back on their feet.


In fact, here's another gem from the same article:

" the strongest predictors of whether a recipient will leave welfare for work in a given month are recent work experience and educational attainment, including mastery of basic skills."

So it goes right back to their parents not doing a good job of raising them.

Personal choice? Really? Sounds more like Sins of the Father.
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