the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is epic?

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amena wolfsnarl
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:03 am

Your right, when i was vehicleless i wouldnt buy a weeks worth of groceries and walk home with it. Id buy 2 days of groceries and walk home with it, while having a 3 year old come for a walk (about 3miles round trip). Or id have a friend give me a ride, or have someone look after my daughter so i could carry more groceries, or hell id 'borrow' a shopping cart and use that to get home. I could have walked 2 blocks and lived off of crappy corner store food, that has more perservatives than actual nutrious content, but i knew if i ever wanted to buy myself another car i'd have to save money. On top of that i wanted my daughter to eat something with real food in it.

If you give a person an excuse before they even have a chance to make up one of thier own, they are going to take the path of least resistance.

one thing i think people really need to stop doing is blaming everyone else for thier situation in life. 'I was raised by bad parents' is just another excuse to not try. You look at the difference between someone raised by 'good parents' and 'bad parents' and one of the biggest distinguishing factors i see is motivation. In my experience that makes all the difference in the world. You can blame whoever you want, but if a person is motivated enough they actually make life happen.

Don't blame your parents for being in the situation you are in, blame yourself for accepting the situation your in and not trying to change it.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:56 am

Sarvis wrote:This is circumstance. How many adults wish they had done better in school? Shouldn't their parents have made them do so. If your parents sucked, good luck at achieving a decent life. That is not a personal choice, that is a circumstance.

No, that's still a personal choice. Success may come at a different price for all people, but the choice to succeed is still entirely up to the individual.

What you call 'circumstances' are better known as 'excuses.'
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:08 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:Your right, when i was vehicleless i wouldnt buy a weeks worth of groceries and walk home with it. Id buy 2 days of groceries and walk home with it, while having a 3 year old come for a walk (about 3miles round trip). Or id have a friend give me a ride, or have someone look after my daughter so i could carry more groceries, or hell id 'borrow' a shopping cart and use that to get home. I could have walked 2 blocks and lived off of crappy corner store food, that has more perservatives than actual nutrious content, but i knew if i ever wanted to buy myself another car i'd have to save money. On top of that i wanted my daughter to eat something with real food in it.


Would you have done the same at 10 miles round trip, like you'd have to from my old apartment? Every couple days?

If you give a person an excuse before they even have a chance to make up one of thier own, they are going to take the path of least resistance.


Conversely, if you make it hard for people to do something most people won't do it. In this country we make it hard to be healthy, even at the supermarket processed food is often cheaper than healthy fruits and vegetables. Yeah, you can put together cheap meals with rice/beans and maybe bread... but you need fruit too and it's super expensive by comparison to chips and candy bars.

one thing i think people really need to stop doing is blaming everyone else for thier situation in life. 'I was raised by bad parents' is just another excuse to not try. You look at the difference between someone raised by 'good parents' and 'bad parents' and one of the biggest distinguishing factors i see is motivation. In my experience that makes all the difference in the world. You can blame whoever you want, but if a person is motivated enough they actually make life happen.


So the children of good parents have more motivation? Maybe because their parents give them hope?

Look, the people who have the kind of determination and intelligence to improve their class are the exception rather than the rule. Yet you look at poor people and think they are somehow different from middle class or even wealthy people. Guess what though? When you look at people _born_ wealthy, how many of them are average and would go nowhere without their parents money? Paris Hilton? Pres. Bush? Any number of trust fund kids who live on their fathers' wealth, and only go to prestigious schools because their fathers got them in?

Same in the middle class. Every middle manager out there is someone without the motivation to do something special and rise above the rest.

If you want a type of behavior out of groups of people, you make it _easy_ to do that behavior. It's the only way it works.

If you want poor people to be healthy and shop at lower-cost supermarkets, you put supermarkets closer to them.
If 90% of people are on welfare because they lack basic skills and education, then you educate them and train them on basic skills.
If people are so lazy and unmotivated they can't even bother with that, you send them to counseling to correct that. (Hint: if 100% of the people around a person believe it's impossible to improve your lot in life, they will believe it of themselves as well.)



Don't blame your parents for being in the situation you are in, blame yourself for accepting the situation your in and not trying to change it.


I bet your parents taught you that.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:22 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Don't blame your parents for being in the situation you are in, blame yourself for accepting the situation your in and not trying to change it.

I bet your parents taught you that.

Are you trying to say he couldn't figure it out on his own?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:22 pm

Lifes hard sarvis, and if you don't try to change anything about your life it will always be.

Your concentrating on this walking thing when there are alternatives, I.e. Busing it, borrowing rides etc etc. 10 miles is nothing on a bus, and what's it cost $2 round trip? All it really costs you is some time, take a book read it to your children on the bus. There are ways to do it all the people need to do is find the motivation to do it. If a person doesnt like trekking the 10 miles on bus than that's just more incentive to improve your situation in life and get off food stamps/social welfare.

And this hope thing, it's called personal responsibility and at some point a person needs to stand up and accept that they are thier own person no matter what influences they had growing up, they can let thier past hold them back or they can deal with it and move on in life and attempt to better themselves.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:35 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:Lifes hard sarvis, and if you don't try to change anything about your life it will always be.

Your concentrating on this walking thing when there are alternatives, I.e. Busing it, borrowing rides etc etc. 10 miles is nothing on a bus, and what's it cost $2 round trip? All it really costs you is some time, take a book read it to your children on the bus. There are ways to do it all the people need to do is find the motivation to do it. If a person doesnt like trekking the 10 miles on bus than that's just more incentive to improve your situation in life and get off food stamps/social welfare.

And this hope thing, it's called personal responsibility and at some point a person needs to stand up and accept that they are thier own person no matter what influences they had growing up, they can let thier past hold them back or they can deal with it and move on in life and attempt to better themselves.


90% of the population at every class level doesn't do that, yet you expect people to magically do it to get off welfare? Just so you pay less in taxes?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:08 pm

The only thing worse than someone crying about their own circumstances is someone else doing the crying for them.
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If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:06 pm

Sarvis wrote:
amena wolfsnarl wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:

For example, shopping too often at a convenience store or buying lobster.


If you can show that a better store is realistically available to them. 2 miles, uphill both ways, carrying a weeks worth of groceries for a family of four... not realistic.

Also, if lobster is cheaper than chicken then who cares?


It is realistic, I mean really as a society we've gotten lazy. It was nothing for people to walk everywhere a decade or 2 ago, now we can't be expected to walk to grocery stores rather than a convience store? You can get ALOT more food for tye same amount of money from a grocery store, if that means you have to suck it up and walk there than do it. Take the bus, borrow a ride or even walk there. It drives me nuts when people can't put in a little effort when in reality they are doing nothing but benefitting themselves. More savings means more food. Being lazy and allowing life to pass you by is part of the reason alot of these people are on welfare


Like I said, let me see you walk to the store and buy a weeks worth of groceries for a family.


The place I used to live at in Rochester was just on the edge of the "ghetto." There was a convenience store across the street, and there _used_ to be a wegmans about a mile and a half away (which at walking speed would be a 2 hour round trip.) It closed down though (can't imagine them not being profitable since they were right next to U of R and got all the college students shopping, but who knows?)

Now the closest super market to that area is 5 miles away. The average person walks what, 3mph? So 5 hour round trip.

That was realistic on Little House on the Prairie of course, but then they grew most of their own food and only needed the general store occasionally.


When I lived in Japan, I went to the grocery store every 2 to 3 days which was about 3 miles away on my bicycle. I also cut back my soda consumption when I lived there cuz soda cost like 2 bucks for a 1.5 liter and it was difficult to ferry back and forth. My ex wife's mom at 60 some years old did the same. She also biked 5 gallon's of kerosene to run her heater 1x a month or so. if a 60 year old woman can do it, anyone can.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:15 pm

Sarvis I'll acknowledge the system has built up in such a way that welfare seems not only necessary but inevitable. The ubiquitousness of cars helps cause this in ways most don't really understand (Costco failed in Japan because people don't have cars to bus 200 lbs of groceries home a week). Same ackwnowledgement with the poor and unedcuated raising the poor and uneducated. However, it needs to change.

If people don't take personal responsibiltiy to do it, is the govenrment supposed to? Rome fell for many reasons, but one often cited is because its people became too dependent on the government... for food and for entertainment. How do these poor souls you are always defending ever going to improve their circumstances if all they know is government subsidies and excuses from their liberal champions?

The institutional problems with transportation and access to stores etc... are a factor. It does make it harder, but why do we have to make things convenient so people "can do them"? This seems to go to exactly the problem. If I had kids and was a single parent, I'd still find out how to get to the grocery store to feed them 95% of the time. Whether its a neighbor babysitter, taking them with me or moving closer to the grocery store.

Yes they have challenges, but they need to overcome them with as little government assistance as possible.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:18 pm

kiryan wrote: However, it needs to change.


How?

If people don't take personal responsibiltiy to do it, is the govenrment supposed to?


Depends, do you want it to change? Do you really expect people to suddenly take "personal responsibility?" Especially when the deck is stacked against them?

Rome fell for many reasons, but one often cited is because its people became too dependent on the government... for food and for entertainment. How do these poor souls you are always defending ever going to improve their circumstances if all they know is government subsidies and excuses from their liberal champions?


How are they ever going to improve their situation without help?

The institutional problems with transportation and access to stores etc... are a factor. It does make it harder,


Yes. Exactly. We keep making it harder, then expecting them to put in more effort to make up for it. I'm sure there was a time that you could work hard and improve your lot. But now you can't even get a good job if you don't have your own car. You can't get hired unless you already have a good work history. You can't get healthy food because grocery store is 5 miles away.

So what happens? People give up, they give in to depression and hopelessness.

Look, I get that simple handouts are ineffective. Jesus said "teach a man to fish" and all that, but the world today is pretty much "make sure the man is not near a lake, don't teach him to fish, and then tell him it's his personal responsibility to feed himself by fishing."
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:26 pm

Saris how does anyone ever get ahead with the deck so stacked against them? It's a wonder people are able to provide for thier family at all.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:33 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:Saris how does anyone ever get ahead with the deck so stacked against them? It's a wonder people are able to provide for thier family at all.


Many can't. This is why welfare and food stamps exist.

Did you miss that memo or something?
Last edited by Sarvis on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:01 pm

==How does it change

by weaning people of the system and forcing them to figure out how to take care of themselves on their own.

==I'm sure there was a time that you could work hard and improve your lot.

You still can. Why do you think the illegals come here? Did all the illegal landscapers come to America with landscaping skills, with educations and thousands of dollars in capital? You want to talk about poor and uneducated... they can't even speak English. Now, what were you saying about the poor folks who get 12 years of free education that they waste and squander?

==Depends, do you want it to change? Do you really expect people to suddenly take "personal responsibility?" Especially when the deck is stacked against them?

Yes. I do. Its your job to provide for yourself. How many tens of thousands of jobs are there picking crops? What is our unemployment rate again? how many millions are classified "long term" unemployed > 2 years? Why aren't those people out there picking crops?

==How are they ever going to improve their situation without help?

By making better choices Sarvis. By getting up and being active not idle. By walking 2 miles to the grocery store to make efficient use of their money instead of running to the convenience store and complaining to their social workers that they need more money.

== But now you can't even get a good job if you don't have your own car. You can't get hired unless you already have a good work history. You can't get healthy food because grocery store is 5 miles away.

Thats anecdotal bullcrap. I lived in LA and I took the bus to my first 17 interviews. I almost missed the 2nd one and every interview after that I showed up an hour early. One interview was at 5:30 pm and I literally could not get home on the bus. I walked about 10 miles home (staying on gf friends couch) from that interview. it was an hour after dark when I got home and it was raining. Yes I walked home in the rain without an umbrella. Now talk to me about people who can't get a job if they don't have a car. You can't get a job if you think that you can't get a job without having a car. Its a mental block, a socially acceptable excuse and thats the problem we have to change. Not having a car is not an excuse; I don't take those kinds of excuses from my kids, why would I take it from an adult?

There are some changing job market conditions, so I won't dispute your claim that you can't get a job without good work history too hard, but I will say this, there are thousands of jobs picking crops and many other jobs that people simply won't take because A) they get too much unemployment B) they get too much food stamps and C) they can eek out a more comfortable existence on subsidies.

I turned down a job for 45k because I didn't have to take it. I was slightly disappointed when I did find a good job a couple months later because I was seriously planning on being on unemploymet for 99 weeks. Spend times with the kids, tinker around in the wood shop, write a couple of computer programs, pursue my hobbies and interests.

a 5 mile trip is 60 minutes or less on a bicycle. Also, I'd be very surprised if there is more than 10 places in the US suburban and urban where the nearest grocery store is 5 miles away. I think you're exaggerating quite a bit. I'm going to call bullshit and even if its not an exaggeration. If you can't get food, then you need to move and take responsibility for yourself to be in a position to get to food.


== So what happens? People give up, they give in to depression and hopelessness.

Yes... they do... but thats part of the problem. Who has time to be depressed when you're starving to death? I don't think the pioneers had much of a problem with depression because if they lazed about feelign sorry for themselves, they died.

==Look, I get that simple handouts are ineffective. Jesus said "teach a man to fish" and all that, but the world today is pretty much "make sure the man is not near a lake, don't teach him to fish, and then tell him it's his personal responsibility to feed himself by fishing."

Most of the homeless in Flagstaff (elevation 7,000) manage to figure out that they got to hike/hitch hike down to Phoenix in September. The 10s of thousands of illegal immigrants figure out how to cross the border and make it in the US, but the poor need our help because they can't. Like I said, the homeless figure out how to get down to Phoenix for the winter. Why can't a poor person figure out how to get closer to a grocery store.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:24 pm

kiryan wrote:==How does it change

by weaning people of the system and forcing them to figure out how to take care of themselves on their own.


Go read your Bible. It's "teach a man to fish" not "make him figure it out on his own." You want to do less than nothing and expect them to change. You, who sit on the shoulders of your parents and educators, on the shoulders of coworkers and business partners who have all helped you.

You want to talk about poor and uneducated... they can't even speak English.


Righyt, because not speaking a foreign language means you're not educated. :roll: Sounds to me like these guys are educated, and therefore have construction skills. Guess how many inner city people have those same kinds of skills when their parents and schools don't teach them?

How many tens of thousands of jobs are there picking crops?


Maybe after walking 10 miles a day to buy groceries they can just walk another 100 miles a day to get to the farms!

By making better choices Sarvis.


Did anyone teach them how?

You don't fucking get it, do you? These guys are probably far less educated than your Mexicans. Their parents didn't motivate them properly, per your own admission, and now you expect them to just magically turn around and do the opposite of everything they've been taught their entire life. To turn against every example in their community. All because YOU want them to.

Wake the fuck up. It does not work like that. You want them to make better choices? Work to get them educated.

You're suffering from the same problem they are: You both expect things to just improve, and neither of you wants to do the work necessary to make those improvements.



By walking 2 miles to the grocery store


10, remember it was 10 miles round trip. Stop lying to yourself because it's easier and more comfortable. Stop being so lazy.

Thats anecdotal bullcrap. I lived in LA and I took the bus to my first 17 interviews. I almost missed the 2nd one and every interview after that I showed up an hour early.


Good thing you had no other responsibilities, but I wasn't talking about interviewing. People get rejected from jobs for not having cars. It is as simple as that. Plus it was an example, not the 1 and only issue. Hey, asshat, remember that thread about banks refusing loans based on the applicants address? You honestly think no company would do something similar for hiring?



Its a mental block, a socially acceptable excuse and thats the problem we have to change. Not having a car is not an excuse; I don't take those kinds of excuses from my kids, why would I take it from an adult?


So fine, change the society they live in. You'll have to do work for that to happen, by the way. It won't just magically happen.

By the way, that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about people being denied jobs because they don't have a car. This happens, and it is not an excuse.

There are some changing job market conditions, so I won't dispute your claim that you can't get a job without good work history too hard, but I will say this, there are thousands of jobs picking crops and many other jobs that people simply won't take because A) they get too much unemployment B) they get too much food stamps and C) they can eek out a more comfortable existence on subsidies.


Nothing at all to do with not living anywhere near a farm, right?

a 5 mile trip is 60 minutes or less on a bicycle.


But imagine the shitfit you'd throw if someone bought a schwinn with welfare cash!

Also, I'd be very surprised if there is more than 10 places in the US suburban and urban where the nearest grocery store is 5 miles away. I think you're exaggerating quite a bit. I'm going to call bullshit and even if its not an exaggeration. If you can't get food, then you need to move and take responsibility for yourself to be in a position to get to food.


Because poor people have unlimited resources for moving? Do you get the idea that if you don't have money you don't have many options? If all you can do is pay rent, you can't afford first/last/security deposit at a new apartment? If you happen to own a house, you can't afford the higher rent prices or buying a new house just to move closer to a grocery store?


Yes... they do... but thats part of the problem. Who has time to be depressed when you're starving to death? I don't think the pioneers had much of a problem with depression because if they lazed about feelign sorry for themselves, they died.


Pioneers could go outside with a stick and a rope and obtain food. Try that in central park!

Most of the homeless in Flagstaff (elevation 7,000) manage to figure out that they got to hike/hitch hike down to Phoenix in September. The 10s of thousands of illegal immigrants figure out how to cross the border and make it in the US, but the poor need our help because they can't. Like I said, the homeless figure out how to get down to Phoenix for the winter. Why can't a poor person figure out how to get closer to a grocery store.


Well if you don't mind being homeless then yes, you can move anywhere you want. So your solution is to have everyone who is poor just become homeless so they have easier access to groceries?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:38 pm

Sarvis, a quick question:

What happens after you teach a man to fish, and he refuses to learn, and/or more importantly, to fish?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:24 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Sarvis, a quick question:

What happens after you teach a man to fish, and he refuses to learn, and/or more importantly, to fish?


It's funny, you sound like Kiryan's version of poor people. What was it he said? "You can't get a job if you think that you can't get a job without having a car. Its a mental block"

Why don't we try it before talking ourselves out of doing it because we don't think it will work?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:55 pm

lol, sit on the shoulders of those who came before me. Really thats a bit of a stretch don't you think considering they were all paid? That colloquolism is usually used in terms of research accomplishments...

So... are you trying to say the average illegal immigrant running the mexican border and picking crops on American farms has a better education than the poorest of Americans? Come on Sarvis... and regardless, they have an inherent disadvantage in not speaking the native language. Save that eye roll for your own comments.

If you'd ever worked on a farm or picked crops (I have), especially in southern california you'd know that they send trucks and buses around to pick folks up... or you can buy passage usually for a couple bucks a day. You might have to walk a couple miles to the pickup spot... but yes, if you live out in BFE and are poor with no job, maybe you should take responsibility for moving instead of waiting for a job and a super market to come to you.

Sarvis, do you need to be taught that when you grab a thorn it hurts. Again, quit being stupid. If you can't figure out that buying milk is more expensive at a convenience store and that you should buy it at a grocery store... Do you really need to be taught that you are responsible for your own actions and your own welfare? Why? because people like you give them these excuses. You claim these people are so uneducated that they can't possibly be expected to take care of themselves. Yet we do exactly that, we give them welfare and expect them to take care of themselves. Perhaps its time to round up the poor and ship them to government run day cares for adults since by your own admission they aren't capable of making good decisions. Better yet, just press them into the military and national guard.

Your 5 mile figure is ridiculous. The majority of people live within 2 miles of a grocery store and if you don't and have no way to get to the grocery store, time to move.

Losing a job because you don't have a car happens, it also happens for having a family or being anti gay. It happens, but by no means is a car required for employment. Willingness to get off your ass is however. Recognition that your personal issues and lack of transportation are not the companies problem and you have to be there on time for your shift is also necessary.

Sarvis the equivalent of "going outside with a stick and a rope" in pioneer times is pounding the pavement with your resume in hand or volunteering at local churches, charities, businesses etc... Most people I know on unemployment have NEVER walked into a business and dropped off a resume or asked about open jobs or just introduced themselves to the HR department. Do the poor need someone to teach them how to do that? No one taught me, it was just common sense.

The point of the homeless story is that the homeless with truly ZERO resources, usually with "mental problems", move as necessary to meet their needs. The poor on the other hand don't have to exercise this common sense. They have you to defend how much of a unthinkable burden it would be on them. responsibility.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:58 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Sarvis, a quick question:

What happens after you teach a man to fish, and he refuses to learn, and/or more importantly, to fish?


It's funny, you sound like Kiryan's version of poor people. What was it he said? "You can't get a job if you think that you can't get a job without having a car. Its a mental block"

Why don't we try it before talking ourselves out of doing it because we don't think it will work?


What do you call the last 60 years of education and other social programs. Affirmative action and HUD? what would you call it if someone refused to take responsibility for themselves after 12 years of trying? public education. Your solution, give them more education as well as food stamps, housing cars healthcare cell phones etc...

maybe they just need a little more help? whatever was I thining.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:07 am

Many people can't? The vast majority of people can. Many just won't.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:53 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Sarvis, a quick question:

What happens after you teach a man to fish, and he refuses to learn, and/or more importantly, to fish?


It's funny, you sound like Kiryan's version of poor people. What was it he said? "You can't get a job if you think that you can't get a job without having a car. Its a mental block"

Why don't we try it before talking ourselves out of doing it because we don't think it will work?


You didn't answer my question. Most of this debate is, and has been, theoretical. So I'm asking what happens when people refuse to learn, or "fish", once they have been "taught" or "properly motivated".
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:01 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Sarvis, a quick question:

What happens after you teach a man to fish, and he refuses to learn, and/or more importantly, to fish?


It's funny, you sound like Kiryan's version of poor people. What was it he said? "You can't get a job if you think that you can't get a job without having a car. Its a mental block"

Why don't we try it before talking ourselves out of doing it because we don't think it will work?


You didn't answer my question. Most of this debate is, and has been, theoretical. So I'm asking what happens when people refuse to learn, or "fish", once they have been "taught" or "properly motivated".


You're right, I didn't answer the question. It's irrelevant to the discussion, and amounts to trying to block it based on what might possibly fail. That's not how anyone gets ahead.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:06 pm

bull crap. The only theoretical part of this debate is the liberal theory that the the best way to help the poor is with even more education and subsidies.

I repeat myself, we've had unprecedented social programs for 60 years, why do we still have the poor? We send kids to 12 years of free education (usually 10 of it is compulsory), yet we still have uneducated people. What more do we need to do Sarvis? Please tell us, what additional "support" do we need to give these people to make them successful?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:38 pm

kiryan wrote:bull crap. The only theoretical part of this debate is the liberal theory that the the best way to help the poor is with even more education and subsidies.

I repeat myself, we've had unprecedented social programs for 60 years, why do we still have the poor? We send kids to 12 years of free education (usually 10 of it is compulsory), yet we still have uneducated people. What more do we need to do Sarvis? Please tell us, what additional "support" do we need to give these people to make them successful?


Remember, Kiryan, we started this discussion by noting that MOST people get off of welfare in a year. The ones who stay on lack education and work history.

Please explain how taking away welfare rectifies those two problems.

I've explained my solution, make job training compulsory with receiving welfare. I'd add that counseling and life coaching should be compulsory as well.

But no, let's just take away welfare and hope the people magically change. That'll work, because there were never any poor people before welfare was invented! :roll:

BTW: Do you honestly think someone with little or no work history can get a job in today's environment? Skilled, educated people can't even get jobs today. Yeah yeah, let's just have 10,000 people apply to work at the local farm... :roll:
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:21 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Sarvis, a quick question:

What happens after you teach a man to fish, and he refuses to learn, and/or more importantly, to fish?


It's funny, you sound like Kiryan's version of poor people. What was it he said? "You can't get a job if you think that you can't get a job without having a car. Its a mental block"

Why don't we try it before talking ourselves out of doing it because we don't think it will work?


You didn't answer my question. Most of this debate is, and has been, theoretical. So I'm asking what happens when people refuse to learn, or "fish", once they have been "taught" or "properly motivated".


You're right, I didn't answer the question. It's irrelevant to the discussion, and amounts to trying to block it based on what might possibly fail. That's not how anyone gets ahead.


It's completely relevant, you just don't want to answer it. Let's say we implement what you suggested:

Sarvis wrote:I've explained my solution, make job training compulsory with receiving welfare. I'd add that counseling and life coaching should be compulsory as well.


But, that's why we've seen so many failed programs, failed policies, failing education, etc. for so many years. Most of these hippie, utopian unicorn programs had almost no accountability written in. And like you said "That's not how anyone gets ahead."

So, you change welfare and other similar social programs to require job training, counseling and life coaching. Okay, let's sign it in to law. But, unlike the leftist half-wits did, we need to add an accountability clause to every social program. The country, the taxpayers are willing to help those in need in their worst hour.... But...

So I'll rephrase my question: What do you add to the Social Programs Reform Law for people who DO NOT fulfill, motivate, educate, or work under your proposed changes?
"There is one big rule in life - the things you worry about never happen, and the things that happen are never the ones you expect." - John Bellairs
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:11 pm

Sarvis wrote:
"There is one big rule in life - the things you worry about never happen, and the things that happen are never the ones you expect." - John Bellairs
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:07 pm

a month or so ago this "homeless" woman was charged with "stealing" education for her child by enrolling him in a school district that she did not live in. The charges came out of an investigation that started in social services somewhere (lots of claims about how she was being treated unfairly by the district, but the district had no discretion). Anyhow the usual suspects rose to her defense. Are you ready to do it again? Apparently she was arrested on Friday for dealing crack and marijuana.

Sarvis, she needs you to defend her, she's only selling drugs because she has no education, no job, no home, her parents didn't raise her properly either, no education for her kids and the cherry on this heart breaking story is probably she was going to use her drug money to pay off the school district for stealing education.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_school_residency_arrest
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:18 pm

kiryan wrote:a month or so ago this "homeless" woman was charged with "stealing" education for her child by enrolling him in a school district that she did not live in.


So we actually are preventing people from getting an education, then you want to punish them when they can't find employment because they are educated.

You pretty much just proved my point.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Corth » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:43 pm

Is it possible that Sarvis ISN'T trolling here?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:49 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:a month or so ago this "homeless" woman was charged with "stealing" education for her child by enrolling him in a school district that she did not live in.


So we actually are preventing people from getting an education, then you want to punish them when they can't find employment because they are educated.

You pretty much just proved my point.

The local government is not preventing anyone from getting an education as much as that woman is preventing it by committing fraud.

You always get to the wrong answer, Sarvis, by ducking personal responsibility and personal choices.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:56 pm

Corth wrote:Is it possible that Sarvis ISN'T trolling here?


I very rarely troll.

Seriously, her kid can't get an education. What is he going to grow up and do? I'm betting sell drugs like his mom did.

I don't get why conservatives can't understand that the lower on the social ladder you start, the fewer resources you have to improve. The child is just about as low as you can start, and can't even go to school. The same thing preventing him from schooling could also be used to prevent library access. As much as conservatives like to spout out that a kid should take responsibility for his own education, how can he do that?

Well, to be fair the kid will probably get taken by Child Protective Services and put him in foster care where he will get school.

Of course then Kiryan will be raising Cain about CPS interfering in the mothers' freedom to raise her own child.
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:21 pm

First, no where do I read that they are denying her child an education. I didn't see anything that said they kicked her kid out of school. They charged her with theft/fraud. Her child is entitled to a free and appropriate public education, but that doesn't mean anywhere she wants.

Its unclear to me that she is in fact "homeless". IIRC, she wasn't literally living on the streets despite the left's cry of persecuting the homeless. She apparently was "sleeping" in an apartment in xyz city which would probably mean that is where she needed to send her kid. Instead she sent him to a school in abc.

Its also unclear to me why housing authority pursued the case, I assume they are probably working an agenda and this was something they could use to either A) get more involved in her life (or get the kid) or B) as leverage.

And you're right, mom selling drugs doesn't immediately make me agree they should take her kid away (however its likely theres more than enough other crap going on to justify it) but they are probably jsutified in an investigation. If she gets prison she would of course necessitate the kid going somewhere (but if she can arrange with relatives thats preferable to the state getting involved).
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Kifle » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:25 pm

Interesting discussion on the debt ceiling...
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:34 pm

kiryan wrote:First, no where do I read that they are denying her child an education. I didn't see anything that said they kicked her kid out of school. They charged her with theft/fraud. Her child is entitled to a free and appropriate public education, but that doesn't mean anywhere she wants.

Its unclear to me that she is in fact "homeless". IIRC, she wasn't literally living on the streets despite the left's cry of persecuting the homeless. She apparently was "sleeping" in an apartment in xyz city which would probably mean that is where she needed to send her kid. Instead she sent him to a school in abc.


Ah, so the problem is he might have gotten the rich kids' education instead of the poor kids' education. I definitely see why this case was pursued.

And you're right, mom selling drugs doesn't immediately make me agree they should take her kid away (however its likely theres more than enough other crap going on to justify it) but they are probably jsutified in an investigation. If she gets prison she would of course necessitate the kid going somewhere (but if she can arrange with relatives thats preferable to the state getting involved).


So selling drugs = justified investigation
Witnessed beating or visible bruises = unjustified investigation

That about right?
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Re: the debt ceiling vote, does anyone else think this is ep

Postby kiryan » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:56 pm

Kifle, we started out on the debt ceiling then it devolved into cutting some social programs to reduce the deficit.

Sarvis... selling drugs is DEALING DRUGS, a felony punishable by many years in prison. Its a a whole different world than posessing drugs and this comes after a recent arrest for theft. Maybe you should stop and think about what you're actually defending... and then think about what the reality of the situation probably is (even worse than whats being reported).

Also, a witnessed "beating" is grounds for a investigation, where did I say its not right for government to get involved when there is a witnessed "beating". Now if you're talking about the Nick Cage incident, you're getting pretty fast and loose with the word "beating" aren't you? and you're stretching a single "bruise" explained as the result of mom "falling" while holding a child for "visible bruises".

and its probably a rich district vs poor district thing, but again, you don't have the right to send your kid to whatever school you want even if its "better". Your kid is only entitled to an education in the district he lives in, at the school the district places them in. If you lie about where you live or send your kid to a better school, you have to pay the consequences / pay the tuition.

If you want school choice, its called vouchers; something your party works actively to defeat.

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