Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

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Teflor Lyorian
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Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:47 pm

Florida will begin testing welfare recipients for illicit drug use under a new law signed by Governor Rick Scott on Tuesday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/ ... W320110531

Ugh. We're already getting junk touched at the airport. I can only assume that government is perverted. I mean, check out Weiner's wiener photos.
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby kiryan » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:50 pm

To be fair, I follow the liberal doctrine. Claim discrimination and organize mobs as long as it serves your agenda.
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Kifle » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:08 pm

I think that is an awesome law. If they have money for drugs, they have money for food.
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:04 pm

And yet we've seen plenty of protests about the law here in Florida. I think the ACLU (lol) has a lawsuit ready against it. Why? I don't understand.
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby kiryan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:57 pm

Anything that disproportionately affects a minority or other protected status is viewed by liberals as being discrimination.

Whether its a standardized test or the job market. Institutionalized racism.
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:03 pm

kiryan wrote:Anything that disproportionately affects a minority or other protected status is viewed by liberals as being discrimination.

Whether its a standardized test or the job market. Institutionalized racism.


Whereas you think it's discrimination if it happens to one person.
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby kiryan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:18 pm

No, I think its discrimination when you use one standard for one person and a differnet standard for when the person is a member of one of your favored constituents.
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:39 pm

Ah, so you finally gave up on thinking it was discriminatory for a cop to stop one guy for openly carrying a gun?

But I digress...

Somewhat more on topic: If not for discrimination, why should any race be disproportionately affected by the job market?
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby kiryan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:10 pm

Why are there more women graduating college than men?

Discrimination?
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Kifle » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:14 am

Either way. The less methheads that take my tax dollars the better. Kudos, Florida.
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:41 am

If it saves Florida money, I am supportive of this law to a point. Certainly, the least invasive, most cost effective measure should be used. I also recommend that two things are done: random screenings, and screenings on the suspicion of drug use by the state's representatives.
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:13 am

kiryan wrote:Why are there more women graduating college than men?

Discrimination?


Well that's an interesting position. You consider affirmative action a form of discrimination, right? So wouldn't you also consider putting extra focus on female scholastic achievement as a form of discrimination?

But that doesn't really matter, because it has nothing to do with what I asked...
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:44 pm

Considering he was not doing anything illegal at the time...
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Vigis » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:44 am

I've read a little on this new law, both facts based and opinion based.

The ACLU is considering a lawsuit on the grounds that the law violates search and seizure because it is a "blanket" requirement rather than be based upon probable cause.

Overall, I don't have a problem against it at all as long as they can base it upon some sort of probable cause rather than upon a stereotype that people on temporary assistance are druggies.

The other thing I read, and this could be purely BS, is that the clinics at which the applicants have to get tested were formerly partly owned by the governor and are now owned by his wife. Sounds like a conflict of interest....
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby kiryan » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:57 pm

ACLU will lose because its voluntary. They aren't guaranteed services as right, they have to apply and meet the criteria to get and continue to receive aid. You stop getting unemployment if you don't file or don't look for work. You stop receiving most if not all public benefits while you are incarcerated including voting... They can make the news, shake down some new donors and go quietly into the night.

So you have to have probable cause to drug test folks on welfare and social services, but you can touch the genitals of a 6 year old who wants to ride an airplane to see mickey mouse and you can force all people to buy health insurance? But I'll agree with you, its a bad precedent. Whats next, drug tests to get your IRS tax refund (the credits portion, obviously your payment portion would be something your entitled to)?

I read that too about the potential conflict of interest with the governor. Its an issue... not sure how big it is or could even be. Its getting to the point that your spouse can't even have a job because your in politics. Everything you do could be a "conflict of interest". At least they got conflict of interest correct in this situation, conflicts of interest are pretty narrowly defined as being financial (unlike with clarence thomas' wife).
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:18 pm

kiryan wrote:but you can touch the genitals of a 6 year old who wants to ride an airplane to see mickey mouse


Thanks to Bush, yes.


Its getting to the point that your spouse can't even have a job because your in politics.


Isn't the wife supposed to stay home and keep the house anyway?
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:50 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:but you can touch the genitals of a 6 year old who wants to ride an airplane to see mickey mouse


Thanks to Bush, yes.

You mean Obama now.
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby kiryan » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:50 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:but you can touch the genitals of a 6 year old who wants to ride an airplane to see mickey mouse


Thanks to Bush, yes.


Wow, I don't know how to respond to such a retarded line of thinking. I guess since the fact that it was Obama's administration who instituted the actual policy won't make a lick of difference, I'll respond in kind with

Thanks to Clinton who declined to authorize the assassination of Osama Bin Laden when they had him in their sigts in the 90s.
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby Vigis » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:27 am

kiryan wrote:ACLU will lose because its voluntary. They aren't guaranteed services as right, they have to apply and meet the criteria to get and continue to receive aid. You stop getting unemployment if you don't file or don't look for work. You stop receiving most if not all public benefits while you are incarcerated including voting... They can make the news, shake down some new donors and go quietly into the night.

So you have to have probable cause to drug test folks on welfare and social services, but you can touch the genitals of a 6 year old who wants to ride an airplane to see mickey mouse and you can force all people to buy health insurance? But I'll agree with you, its a bad precedent. Whats next, drug tests to get your IRS tax refund (the credits portion, obviously your payment portion would be something your entitled to)?

I read that too about the potential conflict of interest with the governor. Its an issue... not sure how big it is or could even be. Its getting to the point that your spouse can't even have a job because your in politics. Everything you do could be a "conflict of interest". At least they got conflict of interest correct in this situation, conflicts of interest are pretty narrowly defined as being financial (unlike with clarence thomas' wife).


I think you are right that the ACLU will probably lose on the case, but they also have shown a surprisingly strong ability to tie things up and be a general pain in the arse (especially during election cycles with an unpopular conservative incumbent).

The conflict of interest scenario I think does have some merit. After all, he was a founder and part owner of the company, when he started drafting the law, he transferred the ownership to his wife. It's either nepotism or conflict of interest.

I really see this law going 1 of 2 ways. #1 - fewer people will apply for assistance because, let's face it, who is going to willingly give a dirty sample to the government? #2 - People will wait to apply until they can pass a drug test, apply for the assistance, then go back to using drugs with no significant reduction of cost.

Under scenario #1, the governor looks pretty good, he decreased the welfare rolls and will be a Tea Party darling.

Under scenario #2, he looks like a fool who stereotypes the less fortunate as drug users who are deserving of their fate and whose goal was to enrich his and or his wife's pockets with tax payer's money (remember, if the applicant passes the drug test, they are reimbursed the $35 with TANF funds).
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Re: Florida Gives in to Kiryanism?

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:12 pm

I didn't recall the part about him making the company then transferring ownership to his wife. Yea thats pretty bad...

I sometimes struggle with conflicts of interest. Lets say the lab came first, then he decided to push for a new law to require drug testing. He's obviously going to profit... lets say he even started the company planning on doing this realizing as soon as the law passed his company would be very lucrative. Whats wrong with that if the law is good? Slippery slope? Isn't that the same argument folks always decry when its applied to gay marriage? How is this different than sitting on the city council and knowing that XYZ company has talked to the city about coming to town and you can go out and buy the land right next to it? Or working in the city zoning commission and knowing what blocks are likely to be designated as commercial or R10 (residential 10 units per acre at least in oregon) or using your relationships to get your zoning approved faster? Its simply not a fair playing field and attempts to regulate it such that it becomes fair are an endless hole of cost... if you have information or access, you use it to make money. Now if you're steering business to your company thats one thing, but that is what should be focused on, not whether he starts a company that is well positioned for a gold rush.

I think your scenario #2 is weak. First, I bet you that you don't get kicked off at first failed test, you probably get threats and more services, probably counseling. After a couple of failed tests, they probably kick you off. Second, people think they can beat the system or it won't happen to them or are just too dumb to know about it. They'll spend $50 on products to clean the drugs out of their system so they can get $350 a month in food stamps and their $1,000 a month in unemployment. I bet its not going to significantly reduce the rolls, it'll probably cost them more net between law enforcement and treatment.

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