Food Stamps

Minimum moderation and heated debates.
Adriorn Darkcloak
Sojourner
Posts: 1294
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:11 pm
Location: Miami, FL

Food Stamps

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:56 am

Read the whole article.
"There is one big rule in life - the things you worry about never happen, and the things that happen are never the ones you expect." - John Bellairs
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: Food Stamps

Postby Corth » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:02 am

Food stamp use doubled since 2007. Not too surprising given the economy and given the fact thar the dems in power during that time period like to expand entitlements to secure future voters.

Love the HL Mencken quote at the end of that article.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Food Stamps

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:16 pm

*sigh* It sucks that an important program that, has among other things, kept a few of us Torilites fed as children is facing such rampant abuse.

It also sucks that the author, at least at the beginning, tries to place all the blame on Obama. We should focus on making the program work, not on pointing fingers for political points.

And yes, he did point out Bush's culpability... but Republicans did everything they could to distance themselves from Bush, and this will just be another "We're not Bush" moment for them.

(I really don't think you can blame Obama, Bush or any President for state-level policies that allow some of these fraudulent practices. )
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: Food Stamps

Postby Corth » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:01 pm

It seems, Sarvis, that there is a fair bit of Federal involvement in these programs.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Food Stamps

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:05 pm

SNAP is one of the few actually effective Federal welfare programs. Fraud and abuse are things to be dealt with - Obama needs to step up efforts where corruption is concerned across the board.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Food Stamps

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:08 pm

Actually, maybe that's why crime rates haven't risen in the recession. People are just stealing from a government that doesn't care.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Food Stamps

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:43 pm

Corth wrote:It seems, Sarvis, that there is a fair bit of Federal involvement in these programs.


According to this editorial, yes. Though even then in some cases it sounded like the Feds said "Reduce your budget/Paperwork" and the States said "We don't need to verify assets!"

In either case, it needs to be fixed across the board. Instead it will be a campaign issue, the Democrats will be forced to deny anything is wrong and the Republicans will say the program should be cut completely.

In the end nothing will actually get done.

Yay.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Food Stamps

Postby kiryan » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:15 am

I always have to ask the question... why do these people need government to help them. Why don't they have anyone else who can or will help them? Why is government guaranteeing a minimum standard of living regardless of what decisions an individual makes?

There should be consequences for acting in a manner that makes no one willing to help you. I look at it as who is most qualified to determine whether you deserve assistance... the people who know you (not a government case worker).

Look at how the mormons do it. The church will help you out, but you have to do something for them in return. It could be coming to church, it could be going to someone's house and painting a fence, it could be going to their job center and training for a skill. The catholics used to do this too when they had monastaries... those monks a lot of them were basically homeless people who decided being a monk and praying 8 hours a day was better than starving to death).

Somewhere along the line, Americans allowed the government to take over this role and said we're going to just give you food and money and not require anything of you because we care too much to let anyone starve to death or live a wretched squallid existence. This set a floor in your living conditions...
it also gave rise to the dominant theory in social services, don't impugn the dignity of those you serve. No matter what choices they make in life, you have no right to say anything, just cut them their check if they qualify.

The problem with social services is government is now making decisions based on a standard that does not take into account an individual's actions. It takes it from a "needs" perspective. While noble, it ends up being moral hazard where the government protects you from the consequences of your action. In a country where you can get 12 years of free, compulsory education... and we have to bring in millions of immigrants to pick the fields there shouldn't be anyone starving without good reason. Someone will bring up kids. If you can't make responsible decisions that result in you having the money to feed your kids and no one around you cares enough to step in (like grandparents), then we'll take your kids.

A recent article on Georgia who passed an anti immigrant law and one plan involved allowing prisoners to do the field work is a case in point. They'd rather sit around in their jail cells than work in the field for money. Convicted criminals... living in cells... would rather lie around than work. Like my cousin who has been on welfare for most of her life. As long as she can pay her cable bill, eat ding dongs and hot dogs, and screw in her single wide, she's happier than a pig in shit courtesy of you and me tax payer.

Fraud is not the problem. The problem is the lack of consequence for your actions. Whether its being lazy, or whether it was buying a brand new car instead of putting money in your bank account. I have about $4,000 worth of food stocked and I'm raising a garden. Why? Just in case I lose my job. I was going to go on food stamps when I lost my job last time... but get this, you can't get food stamps if you have food. IE you get punished for being responsible and rewarded for being irresponsible. I should've bought $4,000 worth of toys instead of having a food store.

I also don't take many vacations which most Americans believe is some sort of right... why? because if I lose my job, I get that cash payout for my PTO. When I have 10k saved up in PTO, I start taking vacations... thats the responsible thing to do, but most American's don't live responsibly. They live based on a feeling of entitlement, I'm entitled to take vacations, I'm entitled to a job, I'm entitled to food, shelter and now healthcare. All regardless of what kind of decisions you make.

How do you fix a system that ignores the reasons for you being in that situation?
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Food Stamps

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:24 am

Sarvis prefers the government because the larger the entity it is that you're begging for help, the less judgmental it tends to be. If you ask a family member for help, you are subject to their prejudices, judgement, etc. in order to obtain assistance from them. Whereas, if you ask the Red Cross for help, they don't care if you don't talk to your aunt or sister, don't care if you are married to a colored person, and/or don't care if you go to a different church now.

Trouble is, I don't believe Sarvis realizes/acknowledges that he's simply feeding more power and control into the machine that imposes violence upon all of our lives: government. Instead of limiting government, Sarvis is feeding it because he feels more comfortable being a cog in the machine than being an individual.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Food Stamps

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:53 pm

kiryan wrote:I always have to ask the question... why do these people need government to help them. Why don't they have anyone else who can or will help them?


Because the majority of people who end up in these situations have families in just as bad, if not worse, shape. If everyone you know is living hand to mouth, they aren't able to help you.

Why is government guaranteeing a minimum standard of living regardless of what decisions an individual makes?


1) This minimum standard is basically: Has shelter and has food. It's exactly one step above starving to death in the streets.
2) It's not always about decisions. Entire towns can get laid off if a factory moves, and your answer is for them to somehow help each other out?


noble, it ends up being moral hazard where the government protects you from the consequences of your action.


And THAT's only appropriate for giant financial institutions, right? :P

Fraud is not the problem. The problem is the lack of consequence for your actions.


Bullshit. Fraud is a huge part of the problem. I'm pretty sure I posted that article which shows most people who go on welfare get off of it within a year, but you act like everyone is your lazy sister. By the way, if a person is not even trying to gain employment I would consider that fraud as well. But no, keep pretending Kiryan. Your imagination will get you far.

but get this, you can't get food stamps if you have food. IE you get punished for being responsible and rewarded for being irresponsible.


Oh noes! Kiryan can't abuse the system! He thinks is upper-middle class ability to stockpile food is the same as a minimum wage worker who can barely afford to eat in the first place!

I also don't take many vacations which most Americans believe is some sort of right... why?


Because contrary to your belief we are not born to be slaves for mega-corporations.

because if I lose my job, I get that cash payout for my PTO. When I have 10k saved up in PTO, I start taking vacations... thats the responsible thing to do, but most American's don't live responsibly.


Not to mention that a lot of companies don't roll over your vacation time, so it's a use-it-or-lose-it deal. But no, everyone has exactly the same options you do, right?

How do you fix a system that ignores the reasons for you being in that situation?


When you actually look into the reasons you can re-ask that question. Until then you are really just ignoring the causes and hoping it will go away.

Like that article said: The people who can't get out of the welfare system are the uneducated ones with poor work history. Fix THAT and welfare starts to go away. Simply get rid of welfare and all you end up with is desperately hungry people who are poorly educated and can't maintain jobs.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire

Return to “Current Events & Politics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest