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US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:38 pm
by Kindi
"The amount the U.S. military spends annually on air conditioning in Iraq and Afghanistan: $20.2 billion.

That's more than NASA's budget. It's more than BP has paid so far for damage during the Gulf oil spill. It's what the G-8 has pledged to help foster new democracies in Egypt and Tunisia."

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/25/137414737 ... nditioning

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:17 am
by Kifle
War is not supposed to be uncomfortable...

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:40 pm
by Kindi
$20B / 150,000 soldiers in iraq and afghanistan is $130,000 per soldier per year. no wonder we can only afford to pay them $20k, the rest of their pay and benefits go into AC

tho seriously, this is the kind of thing i find offensive, with a much larger impact (3-4% of the DOD budget) than most of the rest of the stuff talked about here

but it's not a "political hot topic" so whatever

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:10 pm
by Sarvis
I wonder... desert... sunlight. Could they power the A/C with solar panels?

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:57 pm
by Corth
I usually camp at state campgrounds but occasionally I go to privately run sites. The private campgrounds usually have more amenities - such as electricity and on site running water, and cost more as well. Once, at a private campground, I saw a tent with a window AC unit sticking out the side. The freaking guy went camping and brought along his AC! Couple of thoughts on this. First, it shows the type of waste that occurs when you are using someone else's resources. Second, I can't imagine that a tent provides very much insulation. It's cold air in and cold air out.

So here is what is likely happening. The army probably has all sorts of temporary structures that aren't particularly insulated, and as a result the cost of keeping those structures cool is astronomical. At the same time, because it's the taxpayer's money being spent, nobody really gives a shit.

Obviously this is not an acceptable situation. There has to be a more efficient way to keep the troops comfortable.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:13 pm
by Sarvis
I think there's a slight difference between your average North American campground and the Afghanistan desert. And the tents are treated to make them more energy efficient. Not that it couldn't be improved according to the article...

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:10 pm
by Corth
Oh I'm sure you are right about that. But let me put it this way. If they had technology that could make a tent as efficient as a house which has insulation, siding, etc., then... houses wouldn't need all that insulation. A tent just simply cannot be made efficient enough to hold much cold air in a dessert climate. It would make the tent impractical as it would simply be too bulky.

On the other hand, we don't want to torture the troops either. I wonder if some other lower tech solutions might work. Humidifying a room can significantly cool it, for instance.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:21 pm
by Sarvis
Corth wrote: dessert climate.


Mmmmmm.... dessert climate. :P

On the other hand, we don't want to torture the troops either. I wonder if some other lower tech solutions might work. Humidifying a room can significantly cool it, for instance.


Err... humidity actually tends to make it warmer. Well, it makes it warmer when it's warm anyway...

I was thinking though, that public or private the discussion probably went like this:

Planner A: Sir, we can spend $40 billion to make the tents really efficient before we deploy them
Project Leader: Are you kidding? The shareholders/taxpayers would lambaste me! Just ship them with the minimum of insulation


We absolutely suck at up-front costs. If it's more expensive in the long run, but the up front cost is smaller we'll do it. See: Credit Cards, Car Loans, Mortgages... etc.

This isn't because it's public money, it's because our culture is shortsighted and focused on the immediate.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:33 am
by Teflor Lyorian
Corth wrote:Oh I'm sure you are right about that. But let me put it this way. If they had technology that could make a tent as efficient as a house which has insulation, siding, etc., then... houses wouldn't need all that insulation. A tent just simply cannot be made efficient enough to hold much cold air in a dessert climate. It would make the tent impractical as it would simply be too bulky.

On the other hand, we don't want to torture the troops either. I wonder if some other lower tech solutions might work. Humidifying a room can significantly cool it, for instance.

Actually, I do believe the technology exists. Trouble is that you would need to buy a lot more tents. The major advantage of a tent is that they are both mobile and temporary. It's a show to the local populace that we have no intention of staying (as we would if we built permanent structures). The other thing is that they can be moved, say, 50 feet to the left to accommodate extra vehicle storage.

Insulating a tent is as easy as bringing a drum of PU spray foam. You just spray the hell out of the tent until it's six inches of closed cell, non-breathable foam on all sides. It ruins the tent and destroys its mobility, but it's better insulated than the average standing home. You'd have to deal with the fact that it doesn't breathe, but it would stay cool with 3% of the air conditioning. When you're done with it, you can recycle the PU'd tent by just shredding the whole thing and throwing it back into another tent that is being PU'd.

"So Teflor, why aren't we doing this right now?"

I have no idea. I just e-mailed a bunch of Army folks to make the suggestion. Probably something to do with their aversion to synthetic materials due to how they burn or how they react to chemical and biological weapons. Or some other such nonsense.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:03 am
by Corth
Right - as I said, properly insulating a tent would make it impractical as it would be too bulky to be used as a tent. Once you do that you can't fold it up and walk away with it. It would just be a structure that looks like a tent. But I think you are on to something. It is probably a hell of a lot cheaper to just make throwaway tents and insulate the hell out of them with spray foam.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:43 am
by kiryan
but what about the impact on the environment!

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:47 pm
by Sarvis
kiryan wrote:but what about the impact on the environment!


Right, because all the bombs and missiles we're setting off over there are eco-friendly. :roll:

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:47 pm
by Teflor Lyorian
Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:but what about the impact on the environment!


Right, because all the bombs and missiles we're setting off over there are eco-friendly. :roll:

Used effectively, they reduce carbon footprint.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:47 pm
by Corth
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:but what about the impact on the environment!


Right, because all the bombs and missiles we're setting off over there are eco-friendly. :roll:

Used effectively, they reduce carbon footprint.


Indeed. Also - they tend to mitigate urban sprawl. :)

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:16 pm
by Ragorn
This is why we need to cut Medicare and not military funding. Our soldiers need air conditioning! Fuck old people and their medicine.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:16 pm
by Ragorn
DON'T YOU SUPPORT THE TROOPS, COMRADE?

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:11 pm
by kiryan
to tell you the truth, i think they can survive without air conditioning. our nation is so weak we have to provide air conditioning for soldiers and prisoners. at least its efficient in the prisons... really wtf. is being in the military a fucking vacation? With several associates in the military, I'd say yes.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:19 pm
by Teflor Lyorian
It is until they end up dead or in a hospital. Soldiers are athletes that perform better with better facilities.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:43 am
by amena wolfsnarl
kiryan wrote:to tell you the truth, i think they can survive without air conditioning. our nation is so weak we have to provide air conditioning for soldiers and prisoners. at least its efficient in the prisons... really wtf. is being in the military a fucking vacation? With several associates in the military, I'd say yes.


And the politician who attempts to run with that will commit political suicide.

Yes it does seem very extreme and im sure the government has set up a sub-committee to look into developing cheaper ways to deal with this (add another 3 Billion in development costs) than the production of the new space age tents (add another 15 billion in production costs) and you have yourself a new tent that requires only HALF the air conditioning!

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:55 pm
by Teflor Lyorian
Space age was so 40 years ago. Get these tents some youtube and facebook.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:45 pm
by Kifle
Teflor Lyorian wrote:It is until they end up dead or in a hospital. Soldiers are athletes that perform better with better facilities.


That's true; however, given that the soldiers we're fighting would still have worse facilities than us even without air conditioning, we already have a huge gap in technological advantage, a training advantage, and a numerical advantage, I don't think spending 20B on such a slight advantage above what we already have truly makes a difference in the outcome of any war we are currently in.

The only disadvantage we have is terrain and fighting, sometimes, a decentralized enemy. Air conditioning doesn't really help with that.

I don't see any argument that justifies spending like that when there are countless better ways to spend that money back in the states.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:11 pm
by Teflor Lyorian
Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:It is until they end up dead or in a hospital. Soldiers are athletes that perform better with better facilities.


That's true; however, given that the soldiers we're fighting would still have worse facilities than us even without air conditioning, we already have a huge gap in technological advantage, a training advantage, and a numerical advantage, I don't think spending 20B on such a slight advantage above what we already have truly makes a difference in the outcome of any war we are currently in.

The only disadvantage we have is terrain and fighting, sometimes, a decentralized enemy. Air conditioning doesn't really help with that.

I don't see any argument that justifies spending like that when there are countless better ways to spend that money back in the states.

It's not a slight advantage. The most common casualties in desert environments are heat stroke/dehydration/other temperature related conditions and complications. (though possibly rivaled by automobile accidents)

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:13 pm
by kiryan
there is a bit of preparedness to consider... but im pretty sure the reason we have air conditioning out there is not 'preparedness' and rather one of comfort.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:34 pm
by Teflor Lyorian
kiryan wrote:there is a bit of preparedness to consider... but im pretty sure the reason we have air conditioning out there is not 'preparedness' and rather one of comfort.

It's not so much perparedness as it is casualty prevention. Most casualties are non-hostile.

Re: US DOD spends $20B per year on air conditioning

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:55 pm
by kiryan
true...