Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

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Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby kiryan » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:41 pm

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... 03544.html

The issue? A proposed set of voluntary guidelines backed by the Obama administration designed to limit the marketing of junk food to children through mascots like "Tony the Tiger," the smiling animated figure used for decades to sell Kellogg's "Frosted Flakes" breakfast cereal. Under the guidelines, companies would only be able to advertize and promote healthy foods low in fat, sugar and sodium to kids from ages 2-17, though the final set of guidelines will likely only range up to age 12.

Kingston, who describes Michelle Obama's anti-obesity effort as "one of those little projects that the first lady has chosen" that has had little real impact, complains of a potential situation in which "you could watch [MTV explicit teen drama] Skins, but you can't watch a Fruit Loops commercial." He says efforts to reduce childhood obesity should be focused on creating a "culture of health," in part through encouraging more exercise.

== yea... mtv skins is ok but advertising froot loops is not. great standards.

Republican Rep. Jo Ann Emerson of Missouri - who stresses that she isn't "a right wing, radical conservative by any stretch" - also opposes the guidelines and looks skeptically at claims that they will remain voluntary, arguing that "we all know that things that started as voluntary somehow become the rule of the land."

== oh no! thats slippery slope, what kind of fool is she. Lets assume it actually remains voluntary. What happens when major players of industry accept it and you end up in court? Can you defend not adhering to voluntary guidelines in civil court when major players do? not very well at which point it becomes de facto law or you get your pants sued off.

"There are some folks in government today who just because we're unable as the American people to make our own decisions itself," she adds.

== that pretty much sums up the liberal position. your decision is wrong therefore you should be forced/coerced to make the right decision.

The FTC says it expects the guidelines, if implemented, would encourage companies to make their foods healthier by, for example, reducing sugar and increasing whole grains in cereals. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 17 percent of children and adolescents in the United States are now obese - triple the rate that existed 30 years ago.

== and the real problem. the government, telling, i mean encouraging, companies to change their product based on what... an agenda? who sets that agenda? science? or politicians.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:10 pm

kiryan wrote:He says efforts to reduce childhood obesity should be focused on creating a "culture of health," in part through encouraging more exercise.


But not from his company, of course. Everyone ELSE should promote a culture of health, while his company sells sugar frosted sugar flakes with extra sugar-syrup. (All the sugar, of course, is actually high fructose corn syrup which has been shown to increase weight gain when compared to eating a similar amount of sugar.)

But no, go ahead Kiryan. Side with the company, after all they are a giant corporation so they MUST be benevolent. Right? It would be a downright shame if they couldn't market to people who's minds aren't fully developed yet.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:26 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:He says efforts to reduce childhood obesity should be focused on creating a "culture of health," in part through encouraging more exercise.


But not from his company, of course. Everyone ELSE should promote a culture of health, while his company sells sugar frosted sugar flakes with extra sugar-syrup. (All the sugar, of course, is actually high fructose corn syrup which has been shown to increase weight gain when compared to eating a similar amount of sugar.)

But no, go ahead Kiryan. Side with the company, after all they are a giant corporation so they MUST be benevolent. Right? It would be a downright shame if they couldn't market to people who's minds aren't fully developed yet.

Kiryan is siding with their liberty. You are siding with control over others.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:52 pm

sometimes i think thats the basic difference between democrat and republican. Personal freedoms VS good of society. Now each have thier own idea of good of society i know. But alot of thier differences can be traced down to that individual argument im pretty sure.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:57 pm

Yes and no. Republicans like to _think_ they value personal freedom, but then you ask them about something like gay marriage and they're all about limiting your choices.

How do you think Kiryan would react if, for example, MTV Skins was advertised during Saturday morning cartoons?
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:17 pm

Sarvis wrote:Yes and no. Republicans like to _think_ they value personal freedom, but then you ask them about something like gay marriage and they're all about limiting your choices.

How do you think Kiryan would react if, for example, MTV Skins was advertised during Saturday morning cartoons?

Gay marriage has nothing to do with personal liberty or freedom. Marriage is government regulation. It is the government telling you what you can or cannot do and how things must be arranged. The government tells you who you can or cannot sleep with, under penalty of removing and reallocating your assets.

Proponents of gay marriage simply want to force other people to hold their relationships as being equal - to be validated - by force of government. It's about control. Not liberty.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:29 pm

or from the opposing point of view its about everyone being equal in the eyes of the law/government/society. which to most democrats is part of that good of society thing.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:48 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:or from the opposing point of view its about everyone being equal in the eyes of the law/government/society. which to most democrats is part of that good of society thing.


So Republicans lobbied for a Constitutional Amendment to prevent people from doing something, and you don't see that as trying to limit a personal freedom?
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:51 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Yes and no. Republicans like to _think_ they value personal freedom, but then you ask them about something like gay marriage and they're all about limiting your choices.

How do you think Kiryan would react if, for example, MTV Skins was advertised during Saturday morning cartoons?

Gay marriage has nothing to do with personal liberty or freedom. Marriage is government regulation. It is the government telling you what you can or cannot do and how things must be arranged. The government tells you who you can or cannot sleep with, under penalty of removing and reallocating your assets.

Proponents of gay marriage simply want to force other people to hold their relationships as being equal - to be validated - by force of government. It's about control. Not liberty.


It does when there are governmental benefits from being married. I don't see a justifiable way to defend how keeping gay marriage illegal is not a removal of personal choice or freedom.

There are many other ways in which Republicans attempt to remove freedoms as well. Liberals simply do so on a different spectrum -- money, health care, etc. Republicans do it by moral laws.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:24 pm

Indeed, politics is about power and control. All parties are seeking to remove liberties as it suits them.

However, when I vote for liberties, I find that I have to side with the Republicans far more often than the Democrats. Both parties are such big tent parties, however, that it's hardly a good identifier of your politics or beliefs.

In other news, people (parties) spend money excessively to gain social prominence (votes) and status (status).
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Kindi » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:35 am

i didn't realize there was someplace you could vote for liberties

certainly some ppl talk about it. but it never happens at any level of govt
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:45 am

Kindi wrote:i didn't realize there was someplace you could vote for liberties

certainly some ppl talk about it. but it never happens at any level of govt

It's difficult and it takes a lot of legwork as a voter, but you can if you put effort into it.

Some people develop certain strategies. For example, a lot of people believe that so long as we keep our right to bear arms, we'll be able to defend our other liberties. Those are the people who drag NRA pamphlets into the voting booths with them.

Also, elections happen every_single_year. Not just years that national offices are up for the vote. Check out your ballot some time. There are plenty of propositions and specific legislative items you can vote for. Vote for liberty there. In many jurisdictions, you can even vote your judges out of office.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Disoputlip » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:25 am

People should immidiatly stop eating/drinking that crap.

The more Nestle and Coca cola works against something, the better that thing is for people.

I am glad your government support: "A proposed set of voulentary guidelines". But I don't understand why things like this isn't regulated instead.

I think we in the future will see a low income problem with obese children in the US if something isn't done. Therefore I appreciate that the first lady is clever and foreseeing to address that problem.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:49 pm

Not everyone succeeds in life, Dispoutlip. You can't regulate individual success.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:07 pm

Diso the problem with the european view (or socialist) of things is who determines what is good. Sure regulating "unhealthy" foods is a good thing when your nation faces an "obesity epidemic".

Wouldn't regulating morals and ethics also be a good thing for society as well? Religions and opinions that espouse violence should definitely be banned right? But wouldnt it be even better if instead of a society where people are always arguing over points of views we have one where everyone believes the same thing?

How about regulating opium... the way china did (by literally going to opium dens and shooting people dead on the spot). Whats wrong with that?

Diso, do you drink alcohol? Do you realize that this litearlly kills brain cells and that you are literally ingesting a poison? How many crimes are alcohol influenced?

How far do you want to take the socialist dream that everyone is acting in the way that best promotes the interests of society... or even their own individual person? Do you want the government denying your credit card when you go in to buy a pizza because you have high cholesterol? Do you want the TV to turn off at your house because your not spending enough time parenting your kids? Do you want to be fined for not voting... or voting without knowing anything about the candidates?

do you want the government to regulate the human population like a farmer regulates his dairy cows? Giving them this vaccine or that because it keeps them healthy even if a few die as a result, feeding them this food or restricting them to that pasture because its there are a limited # of resources? What ever produces the most milk for society?

Do you want to be a cow or a free person?
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Disoputlip » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:37 pm

Avoiding your red herring arguments, then black and white: I want to be regulated.

When Denmark banned transfats companies like McDonald said it was impossible to make a burger that tasted good. But they did it anyway, and law therefore motivated inovation.

I am for is protection the weak in a society. Using whatever regulation the majority of those elected find appropriate.

I am for food items that last shorter if it removes a risk of a disease.

Wierd chemicals in food, and commercials targeted at kids are two items where I am not afraid of regulations.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:57 pm

So if the majority in the USA decide that we want to regulate gay marriage, for the benefit of our society, are you ok with that?

Are you ok with a ban on drinking alcohol since its not good for you? Why was it ok to ban trans fats but not alcohol? Doesnt alcohol prey on the weak in society? alcoholics and depressed people?
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:20 pm

They tried that, it didnt work. At the time they figured it was better to keep the alcohol industry regulated and taxable than to allow the bootleggers to continue making large amounts of money on it......hmmm maybe they should take a lesson there for the current war on drugs....(not trying to open that can of worms.) On top of that the banning of transfats does not really impact the people that huge, instead they have to find different cooking methods that are SLIGHTLY healthier to produce the same product.

Now the gay marriage thing is the civil rights issue of our generation, its going to happen, people need to start to deal with that fact and quit condeming others, you know that whole judge not least thou shall be judge thing, for thier personal sexual prefrences, we should all be equal in the eyes of the law, no matter if the individual chooses to perfer penis or not.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:39 pm

kiryan wrote:So if the majority in the USA decide that we want to regulate gay marriage, for the benefit of our society, are you ok with that?


Yes, and I will use my right to Free Speech to convince as many people as possible that gay marriage shouldn't be regulated.

THAT is why we are not a herd of cattle.

Are you ok with a ban on drinking alcohol since its not good for you?


Alcohol in moderation IS good for you.

Why was it ok to ban trans fats but not alcohol?


Trans fats have no health benefits. More importantly: Food manufacturers would not otherwise avoid using them. It was a cheap, harmful substance that could be added to food. The benefits of using it, for the food manufacturer, would always outweigh the harm to people who used it. To make matters worse it's difficult to avoid food containing it otherwise, just like high fructose corn syrup. Pick up anything of the shelf, there's at least a 75% chance it will contain HFCS.


Doesnt alcohol prey on the weak in society? alcoholics and depressed people?


No.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:28 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Doesnt alcohol prey on the weak in society? alcoholics and depressed people?


No.


Really cuz i'm pretty sure ive read a # of articles over the years accusing it of being racism directed at blacks and native americans. Also, I know some AA members that have a different perspective on whether alcohol is a predator. many black activists decry the abuse of alcohol in their communities.

==

Diso how about these regulations?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/1 ... 94631.html

Children over 2 years old cannot be served whole milk unless directed to do so by a child's health care provider
Juice servings cannot exceed 4 to 6 ounces daily and must be 100 percent juice
TV and computer limitations of 20 minutes daily
Dolls at day care centers must represent three races
Each child must have an assigned caregiver
children must be offered food at least every three hours

Reached for comment by Westword, Human Services spokeswoman Liz McDonough said nothing is likely to be finalized before mid-2012. "This is a lengthy, thoughtful, deliberate process." McDonough also stressed that these reflect national child care standards with origins of reform starting in 2000.

== dolls must represent three races? government deciding what attitudes you should have?

== children can not be served whole milk unless a doctor says so? Parent's authorization isn't sufficient.

== Really diso, you support this kind of stuff? Mind you. Whole milk is a WHOPPING 4% fat (cream) compared to 2% which is legal.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:45 pm

There is regulation, and there is regulation.

No restaurant would put poison into their food because their business will be killed in vengeful anger.

The question is, is it necessary to regulate the amount of poison in food? What would regulation do that common sense, business sense, and plain sense wouldn't already infuse?

Three things: 1) the establishment of regulation generally establishes along with it a set of prescribed punishments for violations, 2) that the establishment of regulations generally establishes along with it a method of enforcement, and 3) that regulation provides protection for businesses that perhaps put a little bit of poison into their food, but not enough to exceed regulation.

Then there is the grey area: for example, a poison that makes your food taste fucking wonderful, a poison that is only poisonous when mixed with certain other things, or a poison that the government has declared to not be a poison.

So what happens in those cases?

Fucking Wonderful Poison

Regulation might make sense here, seeing as how adding the poison has a business/profit motivation. Government might step in to ensure that the fucking wonderful poison doesn't get used, despite the protest of buinesses and possibly even the customers that want just a little fucking more. HOWEVER - shouldn't people have the RIGHT to chose their own poison? They already do with a number of other things - and hey - it's fucking wonderful.

Poison Only Sometimes

If a use of a substance is perfectly safe and wonderful when never combined with say... gluten, should a government regulate that the substance should A) never be used, B) never be used with that substance, or C) all products with the substance must be labeled as such. This is hard to tell. The problem with regulation of this particular substance is that it will be decided by popularity, politics, etc., rather than any substantiated evidence. If you are running a just government, one restricted by the people to the bare minimum evil of ensuring the liberty of the people - you'll want to go with the least invasive, minimal regulation possible. If you want to be European, you'll tell people what to do and when to do it.

A Poison that is Not

BPA - wonderful little thing in plastics. Government says it's safe. Crazy people say it's not. In this particular case, we've chosen not to regulate it. The market responded to the crazies and made a whole s--t ton of BPA free plastics. Some of them are arguably more dangerous than BPA ever was.


So, I s--t on your stupid regulations. They're ineffective. The market responds quickly to consumer demands and choices. And the decisions to regulate come from politics, rather than science, and are usually pretty stupid. Are some regulations good? Possibly. Are they better than allowing market forces to dictate what they are? Probably not, but there might be a few.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:24 pm

Regulation has hundreds on instances where it is good and neccessary, look at the regulations put on chemical companies in regards to dumping of products and treatment of waste? are any of those bad? The chemical companies were quite happy to continue to dump thier poisons wherever they could until the government regulated that part.

The marketing and tobacco industry for years did nothing but lie to its consummers stating all the 'health' benefits of cigarettes even when they knew it was all lies, they helped to cause cancer in millions of people, before those people were aware of the potentially harmful risks of it. Is this a bad form of regulations when the government demanded truth in advertising?

Before processed foods were not required to put all of thier ingredients onto thier packaging, government regulations forced them to start doing this. Is it a bad thing that consumers are fully informed of what they are about to ingest?

Now I agree that there are some stupid things being regulated in a pursuit to protect the public, my personal pet peeve at the moment is how the alberta government has changed the regulations for day homes, in an attempt to protect the children, even though the day homes that are registered are the ones that they typically dont need to worry about. At the same time the public alot is generally unaware of all the things that go into thier products. Is it not the governments job in extension to protect its citizens? So is it not the governments reponsiblity to ensure that companies do not create foods and products that are harmful to its peoples?

Some times the market will not adjust to the needs of the consumers, so the government has to step in and give it a little shove
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:32 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:Regulation has hundreds on instances where it is good and neccessary, look at the regulations put on chemical companies in regards to dumping of products and treatment of waste? are any of those bad? The chemical companies were quite happy to continue to dump thier poisons wherever they could until the government regulated that part.

The marketing and tobacco industry for years did nothing but lie to its consummers stating all the 'health' benefits of cigarettes even when they knew it was all lies, they helped to cause cancer in millions of people, before those people were aware of the potentially harmful risks of it. Is this a bad form of regulations when the government demanded truth in advertising?

Before processed foods were not required to put all of thier ingredients onto thier packaging, government regulations forced them to start doing this. Is it a bad thing that consumers are fully informed of what they are about to ingest?

Now I agree that there are some stupid things being regulated in a pursuit to protect the public, my personal pet peeve at the moment is how the alberta government has changed the regulations for day homes, in an attempt to protect the children, even though the day homes that are registered are the ones that they typically dont need to worry about. At the same time the public alot is generally unaware of all the things that go into thier products. Is it not the governments job in extension to protect its citizens? So is it not the governments reponsiblity to ensure that companies do not create foods and products that are harmful to its peoples?

Some times the market will not adjust to the needs of the consumers, so the government has to step in and give it a little shove

But you are talking about a distant past where the average consumer wasn't immediately connected to the vast majority of industry.

These days, with the internet, TV news media, and a reactive public that actually knows about what chemical companies do, we live in a very different environment. All of this talk about how regulation worked in the 50's reads to me like talk of how the postal system used to be big in communications.
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Re: Tobacco outlawed check, next up everything unhealthy

Postby Disoputlip » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:51 pm

Read the huffington post. That would probably be something I would prefer as guidelines, and not advisory.

But then again, nurseries are semi-public in Denmark, so you know it is run by well educated people. There is also a diatist helping those places.

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